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DCM 2013: Mentored Novices Thread......Take 2

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    #482
    shortstuff!
    Registered Users Posts: 852 ✭✭✭shortstuff!


    RobW, shouldn't you have been studying instead of doing tempo runs?!! Impressive times there, best of luck in your exam:)


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    #483
    Pacing Mule
    Registered Users Posts: 5,055 ✭✭✭Pacing Mule


    digger2d2 wrote: »
    Nice to see a bit of bite coming back into this thread.... It really hasn't been the same since Pageant Messiah got the sack :D;)

    My probation is up soon ;)

    Blofeld.jpg


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    #484
    career_move
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭career_move


    Pageant Messiah wrote: »
    My probation is up soon ;)

    Blofeld.jpg
    Yay....good news :D
    And that's not just because I need your help with a spreadsheet ;)


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    #485
    rob w
    Registered Users Posts: 1,111 ✭✭✭rob w


    shortstuff! wrote: »
    RobW, shouldn't you have been studying instead of doing tempo runs?!! Impressive times there, best of luck in your exam:)


    Ah, but see I was studying.......im a student of this thread now.....graduating October 2013!!


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    #486
    greenb
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭greenb


    career_move wrote: »
    If you come back mid july you'll have 14/15 weeks. Ask your physio if there is some form of cross training you could be doing. If you keep the fitness up you could follow a 12wk plan with a cushion of a couple of weeks. You would have to forget about doing it in a certain time though.

    Thanks, I'll be trying to keep up the fitness as best I can. Just worried that a 12-14 week plan won't give me the chance to build up to a long enough LSR without risking further injury as I'll probably have to start with relatively short easy runs. I fully accept that my previous goal (sub 4) of which I was quietly if maybe a bit misguidedly:) confident is out the window.

    Any suggestions or links to a good 12 wk plan?

    Thanks again for your help/advice.


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    #487
    career_move
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭career_move


    greenb wrote: »
    Thanks, I'll be trying to keep up the fitness as best I can. Just worried that a 12-14 week plan won't give me the chance to build up to a long enough LSR without risking further injury as I'll probably have to start with relatively short easy runs. I fully accept that my previous goal (sub 4) of which I was quietly if maybe a bit misguidedly:) confident is out the window.

    Any suggestions or links to a good 12 wk plan?

    Thanks again for your help/advice.
    I think 14 weeks is the absolute minimum you'll need in order to have any sort of chance. Any less than that and I'd be thinking a spring marathon would be a better proposition. If you had 14 weeks with the base that you already have and provided that you keep your fitness level up I think the best thing you could do is to make a plan for yourself based on Hal Higdon Novice 1. I think this is the best plan because it's the one that is most likely to get you to the start line. I think you'll need to follow the first few weeks as is to avoid further injury and then cut some of the weeks later in the plan. It's definitely going to be sub-optimal though.
    You wouldn't have enough of a base for any of the other 12 week plans like p&d and maybe I should have thought a bit more about it before suggesting it would be ok :o In fact the more I'm actually looking at what you would need to do the more I'm thinking wait till next year


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    #488
    greenb
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭greenb


    Ugh:(....depressing but thanks. I'll keep up the fitness and see how I feel in July.


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    #489
    jmcc99_98
    Registered Users Posts: 532 ✭✭✭jmcc99_98


    @career_move As a matter of interest, what "base" is suggested minimum for starting the plan linked at the beginning of this thread? i.e. the plan starting on the 24th June?


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    #490
    career_move
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭career_move


    jmcc99_98 wrote: »
    @career_move As a matter of interest, what "base" is suggested minimum for starting the plan linked at the beginning of this thread? i.e. the plan starting on the 24th June?

    You would want to be comfortably running 20 miles/wk over 3-4 sessions. I say comfortably because you don't want the first week of training to be a big shock to the body ;)


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    #491
    jmcc99_98
    Registered Users Posts: 532 ✭✭✭jmcc99_98


    career_move wrote: »
    You would want to be comfortably running 20 miles/wk over 3-4 sessions. I say comfortably because you don't want the first week of training to be a big shock to the body ;)


    Hmmm, ok, at present I am only doing about 15miles per week over 3 sessions, Did the Connemara HM in April and have eased off a little bit since to give a few niggly injuries time to heal. I had planned to continue this ease off until June 24th, perhaps I may need to re-think this strategy and start upping the mileage again to be back up to a minimum of 20miles by the start date of the plan


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    #492
    career_move
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭career_move


    jmcc99_98 wrote: »
    Hmmm, ok, at present I am only doing about 15miles per week over 3 sessions, Did the Connemara HM in April and have eased off a little bit since to give a few niggly injuries time to heal. I had planned to continue this ease off until June 24th, perhaps I may need to re-think this strategy and start upping the mileage again to be back up to a minimum of 20miles by the start date of the plan
    If you add one or two miles a week you should have no trouble getting up to 20. Don't do too big a jump at first and remember to factor in at least one recovery week


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    #493
    jmcc99_98
    Registered Users Posts: 532 ✭✭✭jmcc99_98


    Yeah, I have a 5km race next week which I want to do. and then I might take a complete break for a week from running (Do a bit on the bike instead) then go back at it around the 7th June building slowly up to the 20 mile distance for the 24th

    By the way fair play on responding to us all so quickly on here. It is a great resource and certainly acts as a great reassurance to me in a lot of ways.


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    #494
    Kurt Godel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    Laois_Man wrote: »

    I see this concept of a "Recovery Run" mentioned many times over many months and I have never seen anyone question it. I read an interesting article somewhere a few months ago which quoted a US university study which ridiculed the precieved benefits of a recovery run. I am not able to find that article now but I have found this one that says some of the same things. This is more than just being pedantic, but "Recovery Run" seems entirely the incorrect term for this type of run. It is infact, just another training run with the obviouis fitness benefit of doing it from an already fatigued starting point and forcing the body to use muscels it otherwise woudln't use.

    You got an excellant reply from Dr.Quirky, but I just want to add a couple of things.

    Firstly, they're called "Recovery" because they aid muscle recovery. You do a hard tempo session, there will be lots of micro-tears in your muscle, that's just a symptom of the training. You have three general choices for the next days training:
    1) Train just as hard as your tempo, in which case you're stressing already stressed muscles. Do this long enough and you'll get injuries.
    2) Do nothing (rest), in which case the muscles will begin their natural rebuilding, but at a slow rate. Lactate may stay on the muscles.
    3) Do a recovery run. You're going at a pace which isn't stressing the muscles, but is enough to (gently) stretch the muscles and increase blood flow to them, which flushes lactate and quickens regeneration. You then get to train more often, and make better use of that training.

    Secondly, while the plan is the plan is the plan, recovery runs can be substituted by recovery swims or bikes. Particularly if you've given your body a pounding, or as the cumulative effects of increased milage takes its toll on the joints, a stress-free method of recovery can be optimal.


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    #495
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    So thinking about the advice I recieved here today, I went out and did a 10K but decided to try something different. Looking at CM's training plan I thought I'd practice for it and throw 5x100m strides into it. I ended up doing 9x100m strides - tried my darndest to belt out my top sprint. But, I don't have a Garmin or anything so I was roughly guessing 100m and I probably did more than 100m each time.

    I was pretty knackered and had to take a walking break twice which I normally don't. My running in between these bursts of pace was probably a bit too hard. Not really sure how hard it should have been.

    Apart from that - All good?
    Too much? (I suspect the answer here will be yes)

    What strikes me about CM's plan is no matter what the distance, the strides are always 5x100m (Other than one on week 17 which is 6x100m). Why not up the amount of strides proportionally with the distance and/or increase the distance of the strides? Just wondering.

    Any feedback is always appreciated.


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    #496
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,420 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    I don't even know what strides are. Everyone assumes everyone else knows what it means. Don't think it means an all-out sprint, but I could be wrong (as I obviously don't know what it means!)


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    #497
    career_move
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭career_move


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    So thinking about the advice I recieved here today, I went out and did a 10K but decided to try something different. Looking at CM's training plan I thought I'd practice for it and throw 5x100m strides into it. I ended up doing 9x100m strides - tried my darndest to belt out my top sprint. But, I don't have a Garmin or anything so I was roughly guessing 100m and I probably did more than 100m each time.

    I was pretty knackered and had to take a walking break twice which I normally don't. My running in between these bursts of pace was probably a bit too hard. Not really sure how hard it should have been.

    Apart from that - All good?
    Too much? (I suspect the answer here will be yes)

    What strikes me about CM's plan is no matter what the distance, the strides are always 5x100m (Other than one on week 17 which is 6x100m). Why not up the amount of strides proportionally with the distance and/or increase the distance of the strides? Just wondering.

    Any feedback is always appreciated.
    It sounds like you did thema bit too fast and you should be running at a very easy pace in between......

    [SIZE=+0]WHAT ARE STRIDES? [/SIZE][SIZE=+0] Strides (or striders or strideouts) are short, fast runs of between 50 and 200 metres. They are run at a "comfortable sprint" pace (i.e. as fast as you can go without tying up and losing good form.) [/SIZE]
    WHO SHOULD DO STRIDES? All distance racers, from milers to marathoners, should incorporate Strides into their training program on a year round basis.

    WHY DO I NEED TO DO STRIDES? Strides help you in at least three ways:
    • Improved leg speed - to run fast, you gotta run fast
    • Improved flexibility and coordination - faster running puts your legs through a more complete range of motion; quicker leg turnover forces you to coordinate your movements to prevent tripping or stumbling
    • Improved running economy - training your muscles to run fast and relaxed over a short distance should translate into faster, relaxed running at longer distances.
    [SIZE=+0]WHEN SHOULD I DO STRIDES? You should do a full Strides Session at least once a week, preferably after a medium intensity or recovery run. In addition, a few strides (e.g. 6 x 50m) can be done as part of a warm up before a race or track workout. Because good form is important when doing Strides, you should avoid doing them after an intense speed workout or very long run; you don't want to be fatigued when you are doing them. [/SIZE] [SIZE=+0]WHERE SHOULD I DO STRIDES? A soft, yet smooth and consistent surface is the best venue for Strides. A well maintained football field or soccer pitch is an excellent choice. Alternatively, a relatively flat beach during low tide is another good option. Running Strides in bare feet can help you develop flexibility and strength in your feet, ankles, and lower legs.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+0]HOW SHOULD I DO STRIDES?[/SIZE] The key to running good Strides is to think Fast and Relaxed. You should be concentrating on quick leg turnover, relaxed shoulders, and a tall posture. In addition, don't over stride. Take a full recovery between each repetition; you shouldn't be out of breath before you start a Stride. If you find yourself tying up before the end of each Stride, either slow down, take more rest between reps, or shorten the distance of the repetition.


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    #498
    career_move
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭career_move


    Did everyone see this on the main thread?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056955468

    It's hosted by Dundrum AC and features our very own Irish 50k champ Marthastew. It would be well worth going to if you can. Lots of good advice and tips for DCM and you get to meet Marthastew .... what more could you ask for????


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    #499
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    Great info CM. Can you tell me about Hill Sprints also please?

    I know I can google it, but it is different things to different plans....what is it in the conteext of this particular plan?

    Can't for the life of me think of a suitable location to do hill sprints around where I live or on my normal running routes.


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    #500
    career_move
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭career_move


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    Great info CM. Can you tell me about Hill Sprints also please?

    I know I can google it, but it is different things to different plans....what is it in the conteext of this particular plan?

    Can't for the life of me think of a suitable location to do hill sprints around where I live or on my normal running routes.

    Hill sprints
    Ideally you will find a hill near the end of your run, but if it is in the middle of the run it is no problem. The hill needs to be steep but not very long. The effort of this should be similar to strides (i.e. not flat out so about 80-90% of your maximum speed, whatever that is), but you should power up the hill concentrating on form. Remember to use your arms to help power you up the hill

    The sprints themselves should be 6 x 10-15 seconds (as I said the hill does not need to be long) and the recovery is jogging back down the hill. You should do these without stopping. If you have to stop you are doing them too hard.


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    #501
    Kurt Godel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    career_move wrote: »
    you should power up the hill concentrating on form. Remember to use your arms to help power you up the hill
    +1
    The biggest hill in Dublin Marathon, Roebuck Road, it comes just at the point where distance is starting to hurt, which ends the race of so many runners. The ones who know they can use their arms to help them up the hill, get over this hump much better, and nothing gives you a boost like overtaking hundreds from here to the finish. Swing your arms like a sprinter (not quite as exaggerated) instead of from side to side, that'll help your forward momentum.


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    #502
    Ososlo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,420 ✭✭✭Ososlo


    Kurt Godel wrote: »
    +1
    The biggest hill in Dublin Marathon, Roebuck Road, it comes just at the point where distance is starting to hurt, which ends the race of so many runners. The ones who know they can use their arms to help them up the hill, get over this hump much better, and nothing gives you a boost like overtaking hundreds from here to the finish. Swing your arms like a sprinter (not quite as exaggerated) instead of from side to side, that'll help your forward momentum.

    would a little weight training (light free-weights) for arms be recommended to power the arms a bit more? For running in general and on hills? Do runners in general do much weight training?


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    #503
    Kurt Godel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    Ososlo wrote: »
    would a little weight training (light free-weights) for arms be recommended to power the arms a bit more? For running in general and on hills? Do runners in general do much weight training?

    Muscle mass is denser than fat- if you build up your arms you're lugging that weight up hills and around the rest of the course, so not a valuable trade off to have arm-pumping action for the limited time you'll need it. It'd be a different matter if you were training for 400m. The faster marathon runners look like they belong on the side of a Trocaire box, and have/need little upper body strength, so thats a good guide. I'd place general core work or swimming as more beneficial than specific arm lifts.

    All IMO, caveats apply, worth what you paid for it, general waffle, etc etc;)


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    #504
    ahnowbrowncow
    Registered Users Posts: 2,564 ✭✭✭ahnowbrowncow


    Ososlo wrote: »
    would a little weight training (light free-weights) for arms be recommended to power the arms a bit more? For running in general and on hills? Do runners in general do much weight training?

    Calisthenic exercises like pull ups, push ups and squats would be better for running than lifting free weights in my opinion


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    #505
    RunningKing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭RunningKing


    ahnowbrowncow wrote: »
    Calisthenic exercises like pull ups, push ups and squats would be better for running than lifting free weights in my opinion

    +1 to this.
    Plenty of examples on you tube. Make sure they are progressive, to avoid injury.


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    #506
    wowzer
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭wowzer


    ahnowbrowncow wrote: »
    Calisthenic exercises like pull ups, push ups and squats would be better for running than lifting free weights in my opinion

    You would build more muscle doing pull ups and push ups than doing a light free weights routine.


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    #507
    ahnowbrowncow
    Registered Users Posts: 2,564 ✭✭✭ahnowbrowncow


    wowzer wrote: »
    You would build more muscle doing pull ups and push ups than doing a light free weights routine.

    Pull ups and push ups are more efficient than free weights because they target more muscles, I never said you wouldn't gain muscle but because you are limited by your bodyweight you are unlikely to gain much mass


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    #508
    donnacha
    Registered Users Posts: 2,245 ✭✭✭donnacha


    Kurt Godel wrote: »
    +1
    Swing your arms like a sprinter (not quite as exaggerated) instead of from side to side, that'll help your forward momentum.

    Any good video clips or picture examples of this floating around?


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    #509
    wowzer
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭wowzer


    ahnowbrowncow wrote: »
    Pull ups and push ups are more efficient than free weights because they target more muscles, I never said you wouldn't gain muscle but because you are limited by your bodyweight you are unlikely to gain much mass

    But building muscle isn't the goal here so why do them?
    I know they target more muscle groups and they are a super exercise, but for someone who has never done pull ups or push ups the amount of training and strength needed to properly perform a routine based around these exercises is massive.
    So to train yourself to do them properly you are going to gain some mass, especially if you are new to any kind of strength work.
    You would be surprised how much mass can be built with a good bodyweight routine, there are so many variations and you can always add extra weight so you are not limited to your own bodyweight.


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    #510
    Ososlo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,420 ✭✭✭Ososlo


    what a FABULOUS morning in the Phoenix Park. I thought the cops were after me at one stage :o but it turned out there was a race on so managed to get out of the way in time to see the leading man tear past with garda escort.
    11 glorious miles in amazing weather. What more could one ask for!
    Hope you all get some nice-weather training done this weekend:)

    Well done C_M on an amazing race last night. Great to read your report on your log. Fantastic:)


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    #511
    shortstuff!
    Registered Users Posts: 852 ✭✭✭shortstuff!


    Really is gorgeous out! I decided on a cycle today instead of a run, did 50km & got BURNT!! Dont forget sun cream for your LSR people:)


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