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DCM 2013: Mentored Novices Thread......Take 2

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    #452
    career_move
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭career_move


    Gavlor wrote: »
    Its not about me, it's about the poor prisoners/novices under your control ;)

    All joking aside, if novices can follow your plan then I'd encourage them to do so. But if they can't, it shouldnt out them off running the marathon.

    Ya I agree :)


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    #453
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    Gavlor wrote: »
    I don't want to derail the thread so I'll leave it by saying that whilst in theory, you are bang on, the reality is that it is possible to run a marathon without training 5 days/50 miles per week.

    True you can run a marathon off low mileage but you can't really run a good marathon off low mileage.

    But we better leave it at that before I get a warning for derailing the thread! :)


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    #454
    RunningKing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭RunningKing


    Glad that's all sorted..............


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    #455
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    RunningKing wrote: »
    Glad that's all sorted..............

    It's called discussion RK. :)


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    #456
    RunningKing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭RunningKing


    All worthwhile and good to see it. Sometimes it's too 'nice' on here.


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    #457
    Big Logger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 264 ✭✭Big Logger


    RunningKing wrote: »
    All worthwhile and good to see it. Sometimes it's too 'nice' on here.

    I defo think that Hal's plan is perfect for first timers too or even second or third timers. I think this whole running site can become a bit too focused on times and whats good and whats not.

    I myself run to enjoy myself, get the happy endorphins, feel healthy and keep toned. I run in the races to give myself a goal so that I can keep motivated. Most of the time it has nothing to do with competition. I don't think enough emphasis is put on these elements of running.

    I love reading about all the training, races and times and all the different techniques and plans etc. but there are many types of runners readings these threads.


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    #458
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    RunningKing wrote: »
    All worthwhile and good to see it. Sometimes it's too 'nice' on here.

    Agreed. (You b*llox!) :D


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    #459
    Ososlo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,420 ✭✭✭Ososlo


    there's never gonna be one plan that fits all types of runners on here. The best c_m can do really is to have a few options but to stress that others are free to take on different plans that suit their particular needs and maybe HH1 being cited as a good approach for someone who's currently on a very low mileage base. Maybe HH1 could be there on the spreadsheet too for those who want it. It obviously worked very well for a lot last year. But lots used different plans too which worked well for them also.


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    #460
    Dilbert75
    Registered Users Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭Dilbert75


    Damn - now I have to agree with BL and that's just not going to end well. :P

    If you're doing your first marathon from a low base of running and you're happy to just make it around without spending woeful amounts of time training then in Hal's hands you're safe.

    If you're already used to putting up decent mileage and / or you've set yourself a fairly ambitious target of a finish time, and you're happy to go the extra miles in training, then one of the more intense plans may be what you're looking for.

    In either case you're going to need much the same advice, come up against much the same problems and benefit from the same support on this thread.

    And an odd squabble for entertainment! :D


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    #461
    Big Logger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 264 ✭✭Big Logger


    Jes, this is too much, two people have agreed with me in the past week. I feel popular :D


    Just another point to mention to the guy from earlier who was talking about 3 runs a week.

    My little sister ran DCM two years ago. She trained from about 8 months out with no previous running and she got out when she could which was about 3 times a week, sometimes less but never missing the long run.

    She got around in 4.30 hrs but and a big but, she says she would never do it again. She just didn't enjoy the experience cause she just wasn't fit enough and she hasn't run since.

    I agree with c_m about the 4 runs a week really being necessary to enjoy the experience even if those runs are as slow as anything.


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    #462
    Gavlor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,174 ✭✭✭Gavlor


    Does this mean that I won??


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    #463
    shortstuff!
    Registered Users Posts: 852 ✭✭✭shortstuff!


    Well this has turned into a busy little thread:D

    I've looked at a good few plans, i used the 1st half of Hals novice 1 to get me around bohermeen half, I won't be using it for the marathon though as my normal weeks training would put me a good few weeks into the program already, but wouldnt knock it to get anyone round the Marathon... I think C_Ms plan fits me nicely, first couple weeks I know I can handle, then it's just a case of building up the LSRs and getting my pacing right, easy right?!!

    I think there's a good few people on here planning on following different plans, hals novice 1&2, Hals Marathon 3 plan, C_Ms plan, a custom build HR plan... I'm sure there's been more mentioned, each to their own anyway and best of luck to all!


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    #464
    Ososlo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,420 ✭✭✭Ososlo


    How's the training going all? Anyone do any nice runs today? Great day for running in Dublin, but i'm on my rest day. I hate rest days:(
    Did lots of foam rolling and core work and introducing a little arm weight training just to spice things up a bit :) No doubt I'll be aching in a whole new set of areas tomorrow :(
    Can't believe it's only a month until the first of Race Series races! That reminds me, i must go and book it...


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    #465
    Woden
    Registered Users Posts: 6,560 ✭✭✭Woden


    Got a 5k in on Mon and a 10k on Tues but my knee seems to have flared up :/ did some foam rolling and ibuprofen this evening. Will see how it is planning 5k tomorrow.

    I've have been trying to find races to fit into C_M's plan. For the half I can get one in west london I think which is one week after the one on the plan. For the 10m I'll need to see there is a possibility I will be back in Dublin that weekend so could just join up for that.


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    #466
    shortstuff!
    Registered Users Posts: 852 ✭✭✭shortstuff!


    I did a 5km race on Tuesday, was aiming for 27mins and came in under 26 so was delighted! Was raging that the chip timing didn't work, pretty sure it was 25:5x, I'm going with 25:57 as my new PB but checked results of the girl I bet to the finish line and she had 25:45... So either she's being too easy on herself or I was too hard! Didn't stop the garmin in time:( Going to do the St Cocas 5km next month so hopefully beat it again anyways!

    Did a nice 50km cycle Sunday over Tara direction which was nice for a change, ring of Kerry cycle is rolling around soon & I'm feeling underprepared.... Running keeps winning my time;)


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    #467
    Darren 83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭Darren 83


    Woden wrote: »
    Got a 5k in on Mon and a 10k on Tues but my knee seems to have flared up :/ did some foam rolling and ibuprofen this evening. Will see how it is planning 5k tomorrow.

    I've have been trying to find races to fit into C_M's plan. For the half I can get one in west london I think which is one week after the one on the plan. For the 10m I'll need to see there is a possibility I will be back in Dublin that weekend so could just join up for that.

    Is it wise to use ibuprofen would it not just mask up the pain? could end up running on a injured leg thinking it's ok ?


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    #468
    Darren 83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭Darren 83


    shortstuff! wrote: »
    I did a 5km race on Tuesday, was aiming for 27mins and came in under 26 so was delighted! Was raging that the chip timing didn't work, pretty sure it was 25:5x, I'm going with 25:57 as my new PB but checked results of the girl I bet to the finish line and she had 25:45... So either she's being too easy on herself or I was too hard! Didn't stop the garmin in time:( Going to do the St Cocas 5km next month so hopefully beat it again anyways!

    Did a nice 50km cycle Sunday over Tara direction which was nice for a change, ring of Kerry cycle is rolling around soon & I'm feeling underprepared.... Running keeps winning my time;)

    Well done on the pb


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    #469
    greenb
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭greenb


    Posted this on the main forum but no replies yet :(. Thought I'd try my luck here....

    Looking for some advice from the experienced folks here. I've had a setback at a particularly bad time and am beginning to think I may not make it for my planned first marathon, DCM in October. Picked up an IT band injury two weeks ago and have been seeing PT regularly since. Was warned not to run for 6 weeks but stupidly, thinking I was feeling a lot better decided to try a short jog on Sunday last. 2 miles in feeling fine, 2.5 miles pain again and pulled up. Therapist was not very happy with me and says I've basically reset the clock and am not to run for another 6 weeks!!

    Anyway my question: Is there a good plan I can jump into mid July when I (hopefully) restart, that will give me any chance of running DCM? Is it too late? By that time I won't have run in 8 weeks! I can try cycling in another week or two.

    Some background for context: Running about 1 year. built up to average of 25-30 mpw, which I was doing for a couple of months before injury. Longest LSR 14 miles.

    Looking for some hope to cling to!!


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    #470
    Woden
    Registered Users Posts: 6,560 ✭✭✭Woden


    Darren 83 wrote: »
    Is it wise to use ibuprofen would it not just mask up the pain? could end up running on a injured leg thinking it's ok ?

    Yeah I see what you're saying. I take it for the anti-inflammatory affect. I don't really have pain from the knee. It hard to describe its more of a stiffness or doesn't feel right compared to the right knee. I think this is a bit different to some of the ITB stuff I read here when people are unable to run due to the pain etc and stop. Actually that's a timely post from greenb above.

    Previously it would be fine when actually running but might feel warm and stiff then after the run and I'd be icing. At the moment I think i'm ok to head out tonight.


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    #471
    greenb
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭greenb


    Woden wrote: »
    I don't really have pain from the knee. It hard to describe its more of a stiffness or doesn't feel right compared to the right knee. I think this is a bit different to some of the ITB stuff I read here when people are unable to run due to the pain etc and stop. Actually that's a timely post from greenb above.

    Previously it would be fine when actually running but might feel warm and stiff then after the run and I'd be icing. At the moment I think i'm ok to head out tonight.

    Be careful Woden. Don't want to scare you...but that does sound eerily like how my problems started. I kept running through the stiffness...until stiffness turned to pain...though tried to convince myself it was still just stiffness!.......when I pulled up it was more because I just knew I was doing damage (you will know!) rather than because of the severity of the pain.


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    #472
    Woden
    Registered Users Posts: 6,560 ✭✭✭Woden


    Cheers greenb good to know. I'll be keeping a close eye on it and see how it is after tonight.

    Serendipitously perhaps the long run might be out the window this weekend with a visitor anyway.


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    #473
    greenb
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭greenb


    Woden wrote: »
    Cheers greenb good to know. I'll be keeping a close eye on it and see how it is after tonight.

    Serendipitously perhaps the long run might be out the window this weekend with a visitor anyway.

    Good. Hope it's nothing for you and your run goes well tonight. Pay particular attention to how it feels on downhills, and do go see someone early if it disimproves. All the best.


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    #474
    Darren 83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭Darren 83


    greenb wrote: »
    Posted this on the main forum but no replies yet :(. Thought I'd try my luck here....

    Looking for some advice from the experienced folks here. I've had a setback at a particularly bad time and am beginning to think I may not make it for my planned first marathon, DCM in October. Picked up an IT band injury two weeks ago and have been seeing PT regularly since. Was warned not to run for 6 weeks but stupidly, thinking I was feeling a lot better decided to try a short jog on Sunday last. 2 miles in feeling fine, 2.5 miles pain again and pulled up. Therapist was not very happy with me and says I've basically reset the clock and am not to run for another 6 weeks!!

    Anyway my question: Is there a good plan I can jump into mid July when I (hopefully) restart, that will give me any chance of running DCM? Is it too late? By that time I won't have run in 8 weeks! I can try cycling in another week or two.

    Some background for context: Running about 1 year. built up to average of 25-30 mpw, which I was doing for a couple of months before injury. Longest LSR 14 miles.

    Looking for some hope to cling to!!

    I feel for you but I would do as you where told, "Therapist was not very happy with me and says I've basically reset the clock and am not to run for another 6 weeks!! If you jump back in at 8 weeks I think you will do more damage, is there another marathon you could do?


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    #475
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    Looking back over the posts since last weekend and I have a couple of questions


    All of my runs other than my LSR probably fit into the description of a Tempo Run posted by CM on post # 430. Am I being daft?

    Also...

    I see this concept of a "Recovery Run" mentioned many times over many months and I have never seen anyone question it. I read an interesting article somewhere a few months ago which quoted a US university study which ridiculed the precieved benefits of a recovery run. I am not able to find that article now but I have found this one that says some of the same things. This is more than just being pedantic, but "Recovery Run" seems entirely the incorrect term for this type of run. It is infact, just another training run with the obviouis fitness benefit of doing it from an already fatigued starting point and forcing the body to use muscels it otherwise woudln't use.


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    #476
    drquirky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭drquirky


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    Looking back over the posts since last weekend and I have a couple of questions


    All of my runs other than my LSR probably fit into the description of a Tempo Run posted by CM on post # 430. Am I being daft?

    Also...

    I see this concept of a "Recovery Run" mentioned many times over many months and I have never seen anyone question it. I read an interesting article somewhere a few months ago which quoted a US university study which ridiculed the precieved benefits of a recovery run. I am not able to find that article now but I have found this one that says some of the same things. This is more than just being pedantic, but "Recovery Run" seems entirely the incorrect term for this type of run. It is infact, just another training run with the obviouis fitness benefit of doing it from an already fatigued starting point and forcing the body to use muscels it otherwise woudln't use.

    If your doing all your runs other than your LSR as "tempo runs" you are doing something wrong. There are a couple of reasons why this isn't a good idea

    1) Its too much- if you stack up runs at "tempo" pace day after day, you are gonna get injured- your body can only handle so much work and eventually you will develop overuse/ stress injuries

    2) If all your runs are the same, you won't really improve. That is because your body will adapt to one type of run only- Building fitness is about building and working several different systems and capacities. Every run should have a purpose and runs in a week should be building different systems (i.e. aerobic, lactate threshold, burning fat etc)

    On the subject of recovery runs- pretty sure I could find a study on the internet that proved that eating food was bad for your health- that doesn't make it the case though. While the link you provided comes at the concept of the recovery run from a slightly different tack- it still says the same thing that has been used by most likely every reputable runner who has ever raced at a decent level- recovery runs are an essential component to successful training. This is particularly the case during marathon training when the body needs to learn to run on tired legs- and the intensity/ volume of workouts begins to wear you down.

    I'm no expert on benefit of blood flow to the legs during a recovery run but I can tell you that the benefit is real. The most injury free runners I know are ones who are sensible and religious about recovery paced runs.


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    #477
    rob w
    Registered Users Posts: 1,111 ✭✭✭rob w


    Just back from my first tempo run, did 7.2km all together, my splits are here;

    splits.png

    Enjoyed it I have to say, have a feeling I was maybe a bit too fast on the warm up/warm down though I think, seem to be finding it hard to keep track of my pace these days!

    Anyway, now I'm off to finish my final exam in college, and then on to a rare but well deserved night of debauchery, with a well timed rest day tomorrow! :cool:


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    #478
    Darren 83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭Darren 83


    drquirky wrote: »
    If your doing all your runs other than your LSR as "tempo runs" you are doing something wrong. There are a couple of reasons why this isn't a good idea

    1) Its too much- if you stack up runs at "tempo" pace day after day, you are gonna get injured- your body can only handle so much work and eventually you will develop overuse/ stress injuries

    2) If all your runs are the same, you won't really improve. That is because your body will adapt to one type of run only- Building fitness is about building and working several different systems and capacities. Every run should have a purpose and runs in a week should be building different systems (i.e. aerobic, lactate threshold, burning fat etc)

    On the subject of recovery runs- pretty sure I could find a study on the internet that proved that eating food was bad for your health- that doesn't make it the case though. While the link you provided comes at the concept of the recovery run from a slightly different tack- it still says the same thing that has been used by most likely every reputable runner who has ever raced at a decent level- recovery runs are an essential component to successful training. This is particularly the case during marathon training when the body needs to learn to run on tired legs- and the intensity/ volume of workouts begins to wear you down.

    I'm no expert on benefit of blood flow to the legs during a recovery run but I can tell you that the benefit is real. The most injury free runners I know are ones who are sensible and religious about recovery paced runs.


    I only started doing recovery runs and there is a benefit to them, as with everything there will be pro/cons to it. Before I did them my legs would be stiff after a long the next day, after doing a recovery run they where grand felt a lot better.


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    #479
    drquirky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭drquirky


    Darren 83 wrote: »
    I only started doing recovery runs and there is a benefit to them, as with everything there will be pro/cons to it. Before I did them my legs would be stiff after a long the next day, after doing a recovery run they where grand felt a lot better.

    Can't actually think of any "cons" to a recovery run- except of course if you do them every day in which case it would just be called "crap training":D


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    #480
    Ososlo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,420 ✭✭✭Ososlo


    i was doing all my runs at my tempo pace last year and was in physio for a myriad of injuries every month. i now run my easy runs really really easy and my hard runs very hard and have had no issues since. variety is key as Dr.q says.
    i find recovery runs invaluable to also remaining injury free and to generally help the muscles recover after a lsr or a hard run. better than complete rest in my humble opinion! just take them very very easy with a very low effort. don't even look at the pace.


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    #481
    career_move
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭career_move


    greenb wrote: »

    Anyway my question: Is there a good plan I can jump into mid July when I (hopefully) restart, that will give me any chance of running DCM? Is it too late? By that time I won't have run in 8 weeks! I can try cycling in another week or two.

    Some background for context: Running about 1 year. built up to average of 25-30 mpw, which I was doing for a couple of months before injury. Longest LSR 14 miles.

    Looking for some hope to cling to!!

    If you come back mid july you'll have 14/15 weeks. Ask your physio if there is some form of cross training you could be doing. If you keep the fitness up you could follow a 12wk plan with a cushion of a couple of weeks. You would have to forget about doing it in a certain time though.
    Laois_Man wrote: »
    Looking back over the posts since last weekend and I have a couple of questions


    All of my runs other than my LSR probably fit into the description of a Tempo Run posted by CM on post # 430. Am I being daft?

    Also...

    I see this concept of a "Recovery Run" mentioned many times over many months and I have never seen anyone question it. I read an interesting article somewhere a few months ago which quoted a US university study which ridiculed the precieved benefits of a recovery run. I am not able to find that article now but I have found this one that says some of the same things. This is more than just being pedantic, but "Recovery Run" seems entirely the incorrect term for this type of run. It is infact, just another training run with the obviouis fitness benefit of doing it from an already fatigued starting point and forcing the body to use muscels it otherwise woudln't use.
    Not daft but not training efficiently because the majority of the time only certain muscle fibres are being recruited to work. See this post from ecoli for a better explanation ;)

    Re recovery runs I just know what works for me and IMO they are beneficial. While I agree that lactic acid build up in people training for a marathon is not an issue I find that article contradicts itself. It says at the top of the page they don't aid recovery but provides no scientific research or any research to back this up and yet at the bottom of the page it tells you when and how to do them :confused:


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