DCM 2013: Mentored Novices Thread......Take 2

Ososlo · 20-05-2013 6:00pm

Darren 83 wrote: »

Cheers Ososlo,:D I use mc millan training paces with a recent time plugged in from a 10k race, I honestly don't have a time set in stone for DCM.

me neither. We have LOADS of time to sort that out.

Mr Slow · 20-05-2013 7:54pm

Darren 83 wrote: »

Did my longest run yesterday 15.38 miles took me 2:29 kept it at a steady pace at 9:40. Would love to keep that pace for DCM.

Ososlo wrote: »

well done Darren. Great session. I think however that most people will advise you than you should be doing your long runs at 60 to 90 seconds (at least) slower than your marathon pace to reap the greatest benefit from them. The experts can jump in here.
Nice confidence booster for you though

Darren 83 wrote: »

Cheers Ososlo,:D I use mc millan training paces with a recent time plugged in from a 10k race, I honestly don't have a time set in stone for DCM.

McMillan is dangerous for your first marathon, it's pretty accurate up to the half marathon but after that you'd want to be knocking out 60+ miles per week to see the marathon fall into line.

I'd recommend doing the series half, it will be the best indicator for DCM just double your time and add 10%, you will all get fitter as you go through training too so times you're knocking out now will be redundant for projecting a marathon time in a few months.;)

Re pace for your long runs, 45 seconds to a minute slower than your goal pace is about right,

DonKing · 20-05-2013 9:43pm

career_move wrote: »

Good stuff. Sounds like you have it all worked out. I followed Hal Higdon Novice 2 last year but added in extra mileage. You should be good to jump in at week 8 when your finished the HM plan. Or you can follow my plan which has the Athlone HM included. Just make sure with either that you take it easy for the few days after the race.

Hi career_move, looking at following your plan(Dublin 10m and half). It looks very similiar to the Hal Higdons Intermediate 2 plan except that he has a pace run on Saturdays and the LSR in Sundays. Your plan has the lsr on Saturday and a short recovery run on Sunday.

Any idea of the significance of the different weekend runs between your plan and the HH plan?

career_move · 21-05-2013 12:07pm

DonKing wrote: »

Hi career_move, looking at following your plan(Dublin 10m and half). It looks very similiar to the Hal Higdons Intermediate 2 plan except that he has a pace run on Saturdays and the LSR in Sundays. Your plan has the lsr on Saturday and a short recovery run on Sunday.

Any idea of the significance of the different weekend runs between your plan and the HH plan?

The HH intermediate 2 plan is aimed at people who have already run one or two marathons using the HH Novice plans and are now aiming for a goal time. I'm guessing the plan is formulated like that so that you're running your lsr's on tired legs which would be similar to the last 10k in the marathon.
My plan is aimed at people who were like me last year and have a good fitness base and feel that the mileage in the HH Novice plans is too low. I'm a big fan of recovery runs. The idea in my plan is that you have your pace work early in the week, your lsr on Saturday followed by a short recovery run on the Sunday. A short slow recovery run increases blood flow to the muscles => helps in the removal of muscle breakdown products => increases the rate of muscle fibre repair =>gets you ready for the next week of running.

Hope that explains it

Murph_D · 21-05-2013 12:26pm

career_move wrote: »

My plan is aimed at people who were like me last year and have a good fitness base and feel that the mileage in the HH Novice plans is too low.

That sounds like an interesting plan, c_m, but where is it?

Just a suggestion - might be useful for new people joining the thread if links to spreadsheets, plans, etc. are available in a post at the top of the thread (the way they are in the 2012 Graduate thread e.g.).

career_move · 21-05-2013 12:29pm

murphd77 wrote: »

That sounds like an interesting plan, c_m, but where is it?

Just a suggestion - might be useful for new people joining the thread if links to spreadsheets, plans, etc. are available in a post at the top of the thread (the way they are in the 2012 Graduate thread e.g.).

It's here

Ya was thinking that....must talk nicely to PM

molladam · 21-05-2013 1:04pm

Hi,
I am finally stepping up and deciding to take on DCM this year after years of coming up with excuses.
I am starting the Hal Higdon Novice 1 18 week program on June 24th, Is anyone doing the same program?
As it is my first marathon I am hoping to finish and hoping aswell to run most or all of it. I may worry about times on my 2nd marathon.:)
I have been running since 2009 and have done 5k,5m,10k,10m and half marathon twice. Now I try to run every second day but sometimes I get lazy etc etc etc .
It would be great to share my ups and downs with some-one in the same space as me.

rob w · 21-05-2013 1:06pm

I have my first tempo run this week, its a 30min session and I was wondering what sort of format i should follow to complete it i.e. what pace for what distance!!

My pace runs are 9/mile approx
Long slow runs are 10/mile approx

Any suggestions?

career_move · 21-05-2013 1:09pm

rob w wrote: »

I have my first tempo run this week, its a 30min session and I was wondering what sort of format i should follow to complete it i.e. what pace for what distance!!

My pace runs are 9/mile approx
Long slow runs are 10/mile approx

Any suggestions?

From coolrunning.com...

Tempo Runs> This is hands-down the least complicated variety of speedwork. There are no distances to keep track of, no split times to remember, no hassles. All you have to do is run faster than your usual training pace, somewhere right around your 10K race pace. Unlike most speedwork which consists of relatively short bursts of high effort, tempo runs call for a single sustained effort. The result is that your body learns race economy: running at a fast pace for relatively long periods of time. Tempo runs will give your top speed a boost, too. By running nearly at race pace, your body becomes accustomed to running close to its upper limit (though not exceeding it). In doing so, you actually increase that upper limit, and you become gradually faster.
After your usual warmup routine, run at your easy training pace for at least ten minutes. Then pick up the pace. As mentioned above, this speed should be right around your 10K race pace (around 80%-85% of maximum heart rate, if you use a heart rate monitor). The time, distance and pace of your tempo run, as with all phases of your running, depends on both your ability and your goals. For the distance you choose (3 and 5 miles are popular tempo distances), find a pace that is not so fast that you cannot sustain it for the distance, but not so slow that you do not feel challenged toward the end. Tempo runs should be tough, but not impossible. Depending on how you feel on any given day, how much spring is in your legs, and how far you are running, your tempo pace may vary from session to session. That's fine. The consistency that counts is the pace within each session. Try to keep your speed level for the full length of each tempo run.
Don't worry too much about figuring out the exact distance of your tempo run. It's really not terribly important. Three to six miles is probably a good range. The one value of knowing how far you are running, though, is that you are able to gauge your improvement over time. Still, this is easily done by doing most of your tempo runs on the same route. You may not know the specific distance, but you can still compare your times for that same fixed route.

Ososlo · 21-05-2013 1:13pm

rob w wrote: »

I have my first tempo run this week, its a 30min session and I was wondering what sort of format i should follow to complete it i.e. what pace for what distance!!

My pace runs are 9/mile approx
Long slow runs are 10/mile approx

Any suggestions?

I do mine at my 10k pace rob. It's a fun session. Enjoy:D:D

Mr Slow · 21-05-2013 2:22pm

rob w wrote: »

I have my first tempo run this week, its a 30min session and I was wondering what sort of format i should follow to complete it i.e. what pace for what distance!!

My pace runs are 9/mile approx
Long slow runs are 10/mile approx

Any suggestions?

These should be run comfortably hard ie a pace you can hold for an hour in training, don't jump straight in warm up and then cruise up to pace hold it for your 30 mins and wind it back down rather than stopping dead at the end.:)

Nappy · 21-05-2013 3:20pm

molladam wrote: »

Hi,
I am finally stepping up and deciding to take on DCM this year after years of coming up with excuses.
I am starting the Hal Higdon Novice 1 18 week program on June 24th, Is anyone doing the same program?
As it is my first marathon I am hoping to finish and hoping aswell to run most or all of it. I may worry about times on my 2nd marathon.:)
I have been running since 2009 and have done 5k,5m,10k,10m and half marathon twice. Now I try to run every second day but sometimes I get lazy etc etc etc .
It would be great to share my ups and downs with some-one in the same space as me.

Hey molladam,

Your way more experienced than me in terms of races you've competed in but other than that we're in the same boat! I will start the HH 18 week plan with the goal of completing my first marathon in October too. I'm tempted to start next week though, Im going to sign up for the race series too to keep me focused.

All the best!

rob w · 21-05-2013 5:15pm

Thanks for the replies guys, ill let you know how i get on!

molladam · 21-05-2013 5:17pm

Nappy wrote: »

Hey molladam,

Your way more experienced than me in terms of races you've competed in but other than that we're in the same boat! I will start the HH 18 week plan with the goal of completing my first marathon in October too. I'm tempted to start next week though, Im going to sign up for the race series too to keep me focused.

All the best!

Hey Nappy,

Not too experienced at all, like the buzz of a race day and all the atmosphere around it.
I am trying to get in to a reasonable routine before the end of June Disciplined training plan. I am going to try and run 4 times a week for the next 3 weeks and then start the training plan a week early maybe, i.e. 4 days running with 1 day cross training and 2 days rest on Mnoday and Friday
Thanks for the reply ,
All the best also:)

scheister · 21-05-2013 5:52pm

Hey Folks just a quick question was looking at the training plan few posts back and feel thats it alot more then needs be but may just be me.
What my plan was running 3 times a week running 2 slow runs during the week at a 5:15km pace and a LSR on a sunday at 5:45 pace. distance wise it is 8-10km during the week and double that for the LSR and will be getting longer every few weeks. IS that grand or im i going down the wrong plan with the training

Dilbert75 · 21-05-2013 6:58pm

In case anyone is interested the Consumer Show on RTE1 at 8.30pm tonight is looking at sports drinks and whether they do what they say. I doubt it'll be as thorough as the Panorama documentary last year but might be worth a watch.

career_move · 21-05-2013 7:34pm

scheister wrote: »

Hey Folks just a quick question was looking at the training plan few posts back and feel thats it alot more then needs be but may just be me.
What my plan was running 3 times a week running 2 slow runs during the week at a 5:15km pace and a LSR on a sunday at 5:45 pace. distance wise it is 8-10km during the week and double that for the LSR and will be getting longer every few weeks. IS that grand or im i going down the wrong plan with the training

I appreciate that my plan is not for everyone but I really don't think you could describe it as OTT. The recovery run on the Sunday is only going to take 30 - 40 minutes and the benefits of it far outweigh any negatives. The other running days are essential IMO. You are training for a marathon after all. The experienced runners on boards (namely TRR, Ecoli, Meno and Kurt Godel) who looked at the plan all approved of it....

TRR "Looks really good to me. One thing I guess you're going to be asked over and over again is what pace these runs should be run at and I think this is something that isn't always addressed. By my reckoning 70% of people are going to do their runs way too fast and these are the ones that will get injured. 20% will do their runs way too slow and these will be the guys who complain of seeing no weight loss etc. The remaining 10% will be spot on. The best way I find to judge paces is based on current fitness so races are ideal for predicting current marathon pace"

Ecoli "Generally looks fine to me also and looks like a decent step up from Hal Higdon (Novice)"

Meno "It looks good....I like that there are 2 x 20m and a 19 miler....I like the pace runs and strides"

God "Looks very good. One thing you might look at is including cross training the day after a lsr, a swim for instance is great for stretching the muscles (instead of the recovery run) but that's just tinkering with your decent plan"

There are lots of other marathon plans around and people should choose whichever they like best. Mine is just one more option that may be more suitable for some people because of how the Dublin/Athlone races are structured into it.

I doubt you'll find too many plans that only have you running 3 days a week with a total of 10 miles for the midweek run. Running frequency is as important as total weekly mileage. Your midweek mileage should approximate your weekend lsr but if you're only running 2 midweek runs then your mileage will have to be higher => you have a higher risk of getting injured.

Bulmers74 · 21-05-2013 7:36pm

Hi, bit late joining this thread but am a newbie as regards running & boards.ie. Hoping to do DCM in October and hope to join in with questions and get advice along the way

•Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
2 races to date
21/4/13 10k Jacinta O'Brien in UL - 43.21
5/5/13 GLR half - 1.36.57

•Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training?
Nope

•How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant
Currently running maybe 5 times a week covering about 25 miles
Prior to GLR half was doing 35-40mpw
Off the fags since January!!

•What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
Goals for next 12 months
Complete DCM sub 3.30 (not sure on this time but think it's achievable)
Improve 10k & half times at some stage
Improve on marathon time in GLR next May

•How many days a week can you train?
5/6

•Why are you running this marathon?
On 23rd of April 2012 I weighed 5 & 1/2 stone heavier than I currently do. The weight was as a result of almost 20 years of inactivity. I lost the weight through watching what I ate, initially walking, then jogging and then running. Last Feb/Mar I found that the long run I was doing at the weekend was becoming longer and decided to run the half in Limerick. Limerick went well so I've decided to try the longer distance. I know absolutely nothing about interval, core, strength training and a lot of the terms referred in other threads so hopefully I can gain an insight in to a bit of the science of running from all here.

Ososlo · 21-05-2013 7:48pm

Bulmers74 wrote: »

Hi, bit late joining this thread but am a newbie as regards running & boards.ie. Hoping to do DCM in October and hope to join in with questions and get advice along the way

•Why are you running this marathon?
On 23rd of April 2012 I weighed 5 & 1/2 stone heavier than I currently do. The weight was as a result of almost 20 years of inactivity. I lost the weight through watching what I ate, initially walking, then jogging and then running. Last Feb/Mar I found that the long run I was doing at the weekend was becoming longer and decided to run the half in Limerick. Limerick went well so I've decided to try the longer distance. I know absolutely nothing about interval, core, strength training and a lot of the terms referred in other threads so hopefully I can gain an insight in to a bit of the science of running from all here.

WOW! That's dramatic advancement to make in your running in such a short space of time. I'm in awe! I'll trade you my knowledge for a tiny bit of your speed any day:)
Amazing weight loss too. Fantastic!

DonKing · 21-05-2013 9:09pm

career_move wrote: »

The HH intermediate 2 plan is aimed at people who have already run one or two marathons using the HH Novice plans and are now aiming for a goal time. I'm guessing the plan is formulated like that so that you're running your lsr's on tired legs which would be similar to the last 10k in the marathon.
My plan is aimed at people who were like me last year and have a good fitness base and feel that the mileage in the HH Novice plans is too low. I'm a big fan of recovery runs. The idea in my plan is that you have your pace work early in the week, your lsr on Saturday followed by a short recovery run on the Sunday. A short slow recovery run increases blood flow to the muscles => helps in the removal of muscle breakdown products => increases the rate of muscle fibre repair =>gets you ready for the next week of running.

Hope that explains it

That makes sense and I like the sound of it. I'm trying to get the work/family life/training balance right so on occasion I might do a bit of running/cycling with the kids on the Sunday.
I might just add a mile to the length of your mid week runs and possibly 800m to 1KM intervals on one of the mid week runs(instead of the 5 x100m runs). I'm happy now I have a plan......so no excuses

Gavlor · 21-05-2013 9:24pm

career_move wrote: »

I appreciate that my plan is not for everyone but I really don't think you could describe it as OTT. The recovery run on the Sunday is only going to take 30 - 40 minutes and the benefits of it far outweigh any negatives. The other running days are essential IMO. You are training for a marathon after all. The experienced runners on boards (namely TRR, Ecoli, Meno and Kurt Godel) who looked at the plan all approved of it....

TRR "Looks really good to me. One thing I guess you're going to be asked over and over again is what pace these runs should be run at and I think this is something that isn't always addressed. By my reckoning 70% of people are going to do their runs way too fast and these are the ones that will get injured. 20% will do their runs way too slow and these will be the guys who complain of seeing no weight loss etc. The remaining 10% will be spot on. The best way I find to judge paces is based on current fitness so races are ideal for predicting current marathon pace"

Ecoli "Generally looks fine to me also and looks like a decent step up from Hal Higdon (Novice)"

Meno "It looks good....I like that there are 2 x 20m and a 19 miler....I like the pace runs and strides"

God "Looks very good. One thing you might look at is including cross training the day after a lsr, a swim for instance is great for stretching the muscles (instead of the recovery run) but that's just tinkering with your decent plan"

There are lots of other marathon plans around and people should choose whichever they like best. Mine is just one more option that may be more suitable for some people because of how the Dublin/Athlone races are structured into it.

I doubt you'll find too many plans that only have you running 3 days a week with a total of 10 miles for the midweek run. Running frequency is as important as total weekly mileage. Your midweek mileage should approximate your weekend lsr but if you're only running 2 midweek runs then your mileage will have to be higher => you have a higher risk of getting injured.

Ecoli's comment kind of contradicts what this thread is meant to be about. It's a novice thread for novice, first time runners who's main aim is to, and should be, just to finish the marathon.

It's a great programme but should a novice training schedule really be that much of a step up from Hal higdons tried and tested? That programme should be for 2nd time marathoners IMO.

Just take a look at the failure rate among high mileage runners from last years thread and you'll get an idea of the problems associated with doing too much mileage too soon.

Bare in mind most novices are new to running

career_move · 21-05-2013 9:27pm

Gavlor wrote: »

Ecoli's comment kind of contradicts what this thread is meant to be about. It's a novice thread for novice, first time runners who's main aim is to, and should be, just to finish the marathon.

It's a great programme but should a novice training schedule really be that much of a step up from Hal higdons tried and tested? That programme should be for 2nd time marathoners IMO.

Just take a look at the failure rate among high mileage runners from last years thread and you'll get an idea of the problems associated with doing too much mileage too soon.

Bare in mind most novices are new to running

That's what HH Novice 1 and 2 are there for :P

Gavlor · 21-05-2013 9:29pm

career_move wrote: »

That's what HH Novice 1 and 2 are there for :P

The same plans you dissed a few posts up for being to low in mileage??!

career_move · 21-05-2013 9:32pm

Gavlor wrote: »

The same plans you dissed a few posts up for being to low in mileage??!

Exactly.....you can't have your cake and eat it

scheister · 21-05-2013 9:37pm

career_move wrote: »

I appreciate that my plan is not for everyone but I really don't think you could describe it as OTT. The recovery run on the Sunday is only going to take 30 - 40 minutes and the benefits of it far outweigh any negatives. The other running days are essential IMO. You are training for a marathon after all. The experienced runners on boards (namely TRR, Ecoli, Meno and Kurt Godel) who looked at the plan all approved of it....

TRR "Looks really good to me. One thing I guess you're going to be asked over and over again is what pace these runs should be run at and I think this is something that isn't always addressed. By my reckoning 70% of people are going to do their runs way too fast and these are the ones that will get injured. 20% will do their runs way too slow and these will be the guys who complain of seeing no weight loss etc. The remaining 10% will be spot on. The best way I find to judge paces is based on current fitness so races are ideal for predicting current marathon pace"

Ecoli "Generally looks fine to me also and looks like a decent step up from Hal Higdon (Novice)"

Meno "It looks good....I like that there are 2 x 20m and a 19 miler....I like the pace runs and strides"

God "Looks very good. One thing you might look at is including cross training the day after a lsr, a swim for instance is great for stretching the muscles (instead of the recovery run) but that's just tinkering with your decent plan"

There are lots of other marathon plans around and people should choose whichever they like best. Mine is just one more option that may be more suitable for some people because of how the Dublin/Athlone races are structured into it.

I doubt you'll find too many plans that only have you running 3 days a week with a total of 10 miles for the midweek run. Running frequency is as important as total weekly mileage. Your midweek mileage should approximate your weekend lsr but if you're only running 2 midweek runs then your mileage will have to be higher => you have a higher risk of getting injured.

im sorry if it appears that i was saying the plan was ott which i was not. All im looking to do is complete the DCM. So the last paragraph was more what i was looking for. that my milage is low and will have to be picked up or add a 3rd run in during the week

pconn062 · 21-05-2013 9:38pm

Gavlor wrote: »

Ecoli's comment kind of contradicts what this thread is meant to be about. It's a novice thread for novice, first time runners who's main aim is to, and should be, just to finish the marathon.

It's a great programme but should a novice training schedule really be that much of a step up from Hal higdons tried and tested? That programme should be for 2nd time marathoners IMO.

Just take a look at the failure rate among high mileage runners from last years thread and you'll get an idea of the problems associated with doing too much mileage too soon.

Bare in mind most novices are new to running

In fairness CM's plan is not high mileage. This (in my opinion) is the reason novices should not do marathons, marathons require high mileage, just look at all the guys on here running good marathons, none of them are running 50 miles a week. If the plan looks to be too high mileage for a novice runner they shouldn't even do a marathon, start with short distances to build up the mileage before taking on a marathon plan.

career_move · 21-05-2013 9:39pm

scheister wrote: »

im sorry if it appears that i was saying the plan was ott which i was not. All im looking to do is complete the DCM. So the last paragraph was more what i was looking for. that my milage is low and will have to be picked up or add a 3rd run in during the week

No problem

Gavlor · 21-05-2013 9:58pm

pconn062 wrote: »

In fairness CM's plan is not high mileage. This (in my opinion) is the reason novices should not do marathons, marathons require high mileage, just look at all the guys on here running good marathons, none of them are running 50 miles a week. If the plan looks to be too high mileage for a novice runner they shouldn't even do a marathon, start with short distances to build up the mileage before taking on a marathon plan.

I don't want to derail the thread so I'll leave it by saying that whilst in theory, you are bang on, the reality is that it is possible to run a marathon without training 5 days/50 miles per week.

I just think that those who for whatever reason cant commit to cm's programme should be encouraged to follow the easier hh novice and to enjoy their first marathon experience. People should enjoy their training as much as they enjoy the big day.

career_move · 21-05-2013 10:02pm

Gavlor wrote: »

I don't want to derail the thread so I'll leave it by saying that whilst in theory, you are bang on, the reality is that it is possible to run a marathon without training 5 days/50 miles per week.

But you're special Gav

Gavlor · 21-05-2013 10:08pm

career_move wrote: »

But you're special Gav

Its not about me, it's about the poor prisoners/novices under your control

All joking aside, if novices can follow your plan then I'd encourage them to do so. But if they can't, it shouldnt put them off running the marathon.

DCM 2013: Mentored Novices Thread......Take 2

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