Just be honest with yourself. You're not a Catholic. That's ok.

Zamboni · 09-04-2015 1:42pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

I would advise catholics to stop worrying what other people do in their bedrooms.

I would advise atheists to stop worrying about what other people write on their census forms.

What people tick on the census is used for forward government planning such as schools and is vitally important.

The numbers that tick Catholic in the census versus those that actually actively participate in Catholicism don't stack up.

There is an obvious growing demand for children to access non-denominational schooling and despite appearances before the UN, the current government are not disposing of Section 7 of the Equal Status Act which allows over 85% of state funded schools to discriminate against children without a baptism certificate.
This is difficult if you are not catholic and over 30% of people didn't get married in a church last year.

Plenty of parents realise this far too late.
I would hope to raise awareness to future parents on the practical implications of your religious identification in the census.

People baptising their children for a school place without actual faith in Catholicism dilutes true Catholicism and maintains the status quo.
The first step to changing this is people being honest with themselves.

I stand for equal access to state funded schools for all Irish children. Do you?

suicide_circus · 09-04-2015 1:42pm

Democracy - it's a bitch.

Ghost Buster · 09-04-2015 1:42pm

somefeen wrote: »

FFS why is there a double standard in terms of people being allowed their identity.

If I say I am Bisexual, then I am bisexual and no one should dispute that
If I say I am a woman despite being born a man, then I am a woman and I expect to be seen as such
If I say I am Irish then I am Irish

But if you say you are catholic then for some reason its OK to dispute that? Why? Accept people for what they want to be accepted as. Give them the same tolerance you expect from them.

If you want to have sex or have done so with both sexes then youre bisexual.
If you claim to be Irish but have no actual claim to being so then try getting an Irish passport.
Im not qualified to address the transgender issue TBH
If youre catholic then you at least believe in God, follow Catholic teachings and believe in transubstantiation. Plenty dont and so are not...

Shenshen · 09-04-2015 1:43pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

But "Not Roman Catholic" is the definition of what makes a church protestant no? They refer to themselves as both Catholic & Protestant on that site.

"But is 'Catholic' synonymous with 'Roman Catholic'? And is it accurate to refer to the Roman Catholic Church as simply the 'Roman Church'? The answer to both questions is no. The adjective 'Roman' applies more properly to the diocese, or see, of Rome than to the worldwide Communion of Catholic Churches that is in union with the Bishop of Rome. Indeed, it strikes some Catholics as contradictory to call the Church 'Catholic' and 'Roman' at one and the same time. Eastern-rite Catholics, of whom there are more than twenty million, also find the adjective 'Roman' objectionable. In addition to the Latin, or Roman, tradition, there are seven non-Latin, non-Roman ecclesial traditions: Armenian, Byzantine, Coptic, Ethiopian, East Syrian (Chaldean), West Syrian, and Maronite. Each to the Churches with these non-Latin traditions is as Catholic as the Roman Catholic Church. Thus, not all Catholics are Roman Catholic"

From Wiki

Ziphius · 09-04-2015 1:47pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

But "Not Roman Catholic" is the definition of what makes a church protestant no? They refer to themselves as both Catholic & Protestant on that site.

Not necessarily, Eastern Orthodox Church is neither Roman Catholic or Protestant (whether it is small-c-catholic is another question).

True, the CoI considers itself to be both Catholic and Protestant. My point being to show that the RCC is not the only church which describes itself as "Catholic".

I have noticed that some Roman Catholics get very bothered by the Roman adjective for some reason.

_Whimsical_ · 09-04-2015 1:49pm

The census thing is befuddling, as is the reaction to it. 84% of people identify themselves as Catholic yet there's widespread disbelief and complete non acceptance that this could be true.

Are we to believe that the vast majority of those people are stupid,incapable of understanding what being catholic means, have their staunchly catholic manipulative mother fill in their census form for them?
While I was shocked at the result myself I don't see why it's not legitimate to take it at face value that the vast majority of these people chose to identify themselves as catholic and,whether they go to mass or not ,do appreciate some catholic values in our society and do want some catholic influence in public service structures such as education.

Could it be that we as a generation of younger citizens who engage in online message boards,who both read and make up the people writing comments on news paper articles online are just a very vocal minority? The most empassioned campaigners on any subject are generally the loudest voices and online tend to bully other perspectives out of the conversation by calling them stupid, uneducated, extremist etc. I think the census indicates pretty clearly that there is a much larger middle ground on the issue of religion than is represented in our media or in our online experience. By middle ground I don't mean regular mass goers, bible thumpers or people who are clutching rosary beads outside the Dail, but probably people who appreciate or take comfort in some catholic perspectives and traditions and believe the world is a better place with them in it.

smash · 09-04-2015 1:50pm

I feel like a massive weight has been lifted off my shoulders now!

crockholm · 09-04-2015 1:53pm

kylith wrote: »

But it does matter that they tick it. Ticking the RCC box on the census gives the bishops the power to say "We should be involved in this conversation on gay rights/abortion/whatever because we represent 84% of the people in the country" when they don't. It gives them the power to fight against multi denominational schools because '84% of people are Catholic and should have Catholic education'.

It does not matter.
The Bishops can say what they like using whater number they like,they are not going to have the undue influence they had in our Government that they had in the middle of the last Century.

The Bishops also have a right to air whatever veiws they hold,we are an open and free democracy,long may it continue-lobby Groups of all hues exist,I just don't see the Point of silencing the ones I disagree with.

Much as the anti-theists like to Think,this is not the 1950s,and we are not turning the Clock back.

_Whimsical_ · 09-04-2015 1:54pm

Thezra wrote: »

They are simply lemming who haven't thought about the subject properly. They are ticking Catholic because they were told all their life that they were a Catholic. They are the type of people who are vulnerable to propaganda.

So you dismiss 84% of people as stupid lemmings?
That isn't a logical response. That's statistically far too significant to ignore or dismiss.

arayess · 09-04-2015 1:55pm

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

I don't believe in the teachings of the Catholic church in anyway, shape or form and don't call myself Catholic..

I find that hard to believe.
What about the stuff about being nice to people and all that - jesus had some snazzy ideas about treating people decently.
The 10 commandments are fairly alright too - although I contend many religions follow them
plenty of love stuff in there too.
They are teaching of the catholic church - and since you don't subscribe to them in any shape or form ...yikes...

Eutow · 09-04-2015 1:56pm

It's actually frighening and infuriating that people don't realise the importance of the census. The census gives information to public service providers and governments the data they need that determines policies. So, ticking Catholic when you think it's bullsh!t anyway, but you think you are one because you were baptised, and it's not important because it doesn't harm anybody else is pure stupidity.

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Isnt that mass and prayer?

There is a bit of standing and kneeling involved.

Akrasia · 09-04-2015 1:59pm

somefeen wrote: »

FFS why is there a double standard in terms of people being allowed their identity.

If I say I am Bisexual, then I am bisexual and no one should dispute that
If I say I am a woman despite being born a man, then I am a woman and I expect to be seen as such
If I say I am Irish then I am Irish

But if you say you are catholic then for some reason its OK to dispute that? Why? Accept people for what they want to be accepted as. Give them the same tolerance you expect from them.

You're just making that up. While it is true that people will usually give others the benefit of the doubt if they identify a certain way, people are regularly called out when their behaviour is contrary to their claimed identity

If someone says they're bisexual but they show absolutely no signs of having an attraction to one of the sexes or is actively hostile to the idea of sexual relations with one of the sexes, then you can be absolutely guaranteed that people will question their claim of being a bisexual.

If someone says he/she is trans-gender, but does not act or behave in the mannerisms of the gender he/she wants to identify with, then people will question that identity

If someone says he/she is irish, but has little or no connection to ireland, then people will question that claim. Especially if they are applying for a passport

All of the things that you insist are beyond question are in fact questioned in direct proportion to how important the claims are

OldNotWIse · 09-04-2015 2:01pm

At least I can rest now knowing I have OP's er... blessing :rolleyes:

_Whimsical_ · 09-04-2015 2:02pm

Thezra wrote: »

I dismiss the proportion of that 84% whose actions and beliefs clearly contradicts the definition of a Catholic.

You really can't say that though. You don't know what goes on in individual lives, you don't know who goes to confession, who says prayers at night, who gets a mass said when they're worried for their health, who has found great comfort in the catholic tradition of funeral mass when a loved one has passed away. For most people in this era religion is more than being seen at the church gates Sunday morning.
I think the census shows religious identification is not black and white for a majority of people, but to completely dismiss it mere stupidity or hypocrisy when it is so very statistically significant is illogical.

The Backwards Man · 09-04-2015 2:03pm

Ziphius wrote: »

Not necessarily, Eastern Orthodox Church is neither Roman Catholic or Protestant (whether it is small-c-catholic is another question).

True, the CoI considers itself to be both Catholic and Protestant. My point being to show that the RCC is not the only church which describes itself as "Catholic".

I have noticed that some Roman Catholics get very bothered by the Roman adjective for some reason.

AFAIK the Eastern Orthodox churches (or as the RC like to call them, the Eastern non-catholic churches) do believe in transubstantiation but they don't call it that. Martin Luther believed in it too, I think.

Murky old world, religion.

Mardy Bum · 09-04-2015 2:07pm

ChunkyLover54 wrote: »

You're both very droll but that's not an accurate comparison. A religious upbringing is bound have a deeper formative effect on one's personality than football or ballet lessons (although I can't speak for other people).

Indoctrination is fun for all the family.

Shenshen · 09-04-2015 2:08pm

arayess wrote: »

I find that hard to believe.
What about the stuff about being nice to people and all that - jesus had some snazzy ideas about treating people decently.
The 10 commandments are fairly alright too - although I contend many religions follow them
plenty of love stuff in there too.
They are teaching of the catholic church - and since you don't subscribe to them in any shape or form ...yikes...

The 10 commandments?

Let's see :

1) I am the Lord thy God Thou shalt have no other gods before me

Not at all snazzy - basically telling everyone who doesn't belief in the exact same god that they obivously must be wrong

2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image

As someone who likes to draw and paint, I've got some problems with this one. As would many people who have a picture in their house, or a gnome in their garden,

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

So... no free speech?

4) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy

By going shopping, watching TV, going out for a drink or 2? I've worked many Sunday's in my life, and quite happily so I might add - I don't see anything sinful about that.

5) Honour thy father and thy mother

See, that one I've got a particular problem with : My father is a total pr*ck. An absolute pure-breed arsehole. In the last 20 years, I've honoured him by dragging him into court for child payments for my brothers and me, and consequently not speaking to him ever again.

6) Thou shalt not murder

That one's fair enough.

7) Thou shalt not commit adultery

I live in an open relationship - hubby and me are swingers, and very happy with it.

8) Thou shalt not steal

This one I've no objections to.

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour

Again, no objections.

10)Thou shalt not covet (neighbor's house) (neighbor's wife) (neighbor's servants, animals, or anything else)

Yep, and how do you do that, if you don't mind me asking? How do you physically stop yourself from wanting something? And what harm does "wanting" do, anyway?

3 out of 10.

If this was a test, it would be a fail.

Danjamin1 · 09-04-2015 2:09pm

I agree with the OP, but I'm getting married in a church next year. I'm using that as a trade off for not baptising children in the future. I'm definitely a hypocrite because of it but I feel it's for the right reasons if it keeps the future kids unindoctrinated.

Ghost Buster · 09-04-2015 2:11pm

arayess wrote: »

I find that hard to believe.
What about the stuff about being nice to people and all that - jesus had some snazzy ideas about treating people decently.
The 10 commandments are fairly alright too - although I contend many religions follow them
plenty of love stuff in there too.
They are teaching of the catholic church - and since you don't subscribe to them in any shape or form ...yikes...

Some people are capable of being nice despite the carrot and stick / man in the sky stuff!!!!!!

Ghost Buster · 09-04-2015 2:13pm

Shenshen wrote: »

The 10 commandments?

Let's see :

1) I am the Lord thy God Thou shalt have no other gods before me

Not at all snazzy - basically telling everyone who doesn't belief in the exact same god that they obivously must be wrong

2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image

As someone who likes to draw and paint, I've got some problems with this one. As would many people who have a picture in their house, or a gnome in their garden,

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

So... no free speech?

4) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy

By going shopping, watching TV, going out for a drink or 2? I've worked many Sunday's in my life, and quite happily so I might add - I don't see anything sinful about that.

5) Honour thy father and thy mother

See, that one I've got a particular problem with : My father is a total pr*ck. An absolute pure-breed arsehole. In the last 20 years, I've honoured him by dragging him into court for child payments for my brothers and me, and consequently not speaking to him ever again.

6) Thou shalt not murder

That one's fair enough.

7) Thou shalt not commit adultery

I live in an open relationship - hubby and me are swingers, and very happy with it.

8) Thou shalt not steal

This one I've no objections to.

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour

Again, no objections.

10)Thou shalt not covet (neighbor's house) (neighbor's wife) (neighbor's servants, animals, or anything else)

Yep, and how do you do that, if you don't mind me asking? How do you physically stop yourself from wanting something? And what harm does "wanting" do, anyway?

3 out of 10.

If this was a test, it would be a fail.

But dont forget. Numero uno, the most important one is needy old God demanding unconditional adulation.... Me me me me me me me me me me

kylith · 09-04-2015 2:14pm

crockholm wrote: »

It does not matter.
The Bishops can say what they like using whater number they like,they are not going to have the undue influence they had in our Government that they had in the middle of the last Century.

The Bishops also have a right to air whatever veiws they hold,we are an open and free democracy,long may it continue-lobby Groups of all hues exist,I just don't see the Point of silencing the ones I disagree with.

Much as the anti-theists like to Think,this is not the 1950s,and we are not turning the Clock back.

In my opinion any influence is too much influence for them, or any other religious group, to have.

They can air whatever views they like, but it's the fact that they claim to have the support of 84% of the population that gives those opinions weight. Do you think they'd be given the platform that they are if they only claimed to represent the 35% that are actually practising Catholics?

awec · 09-04-2015 2:15pm

I don't think I have ever met anyone in my life who actually lives their life with complete belief in and obedience of all of the rules of the RCC.

crockholm · 09-04-2015 2:18pm

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

Yes it does, to not consider your beliefs before you tick that box is beyond selfish.

Non-believers who tick that box in the next census will make it that much harder for me to get my future children in a secular school. It's not just an arbitrary tick of the box, it's information upon which social policy is drawn from. It's so important to be honest when filling out the census that I'm almost sure it's illegal to knowingly write false info on it?

And you want to achieve this for you future Children how exactly?Have the thought police run tests? Lie -detector tests? A quiz on Canon-Law?:pac:

Don't worry about the kids,they'll be all right wherever they are.My siblings and I had Nuns teaching us in school and all bar one are good atheists/agnostics

neil_hosey · 09-04-2015 2:18pm

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I agree with the OP, but I'm getting married in a church next year. I'm using that as a trade off for not baptising children in the future. I'm definitely a hypocrite because of it but I feel it's for the right reasons if it keeps the future kids unindoctrinated.

fair play.

Shenshen · 09-04-2015 2:19pm

awec wrote: »

I don't think I have ever met anyone in my life who actually lives their life with complete belief in and obedience of all of the rules of the RCC.

I have... they seriously freaked me out, to say the least.

Akrasia · 09-04-2015 2:19pm

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

So you dismiss 84% of people as stupid lemmings?
That isn't a logical response. That's statistically far too significant to ignore or dismiss.

The question on the form was worded very poorly

It asked 'What is your religion?' and then followed it with boxes to tick, and then at the very end it had 'no religion' box

What the questions should have said was

1. Do you practice a religion?
2. If yes, what is your religion?

A simple change like that would have made the information much more trustworthy

OldNotWIse · 09-04-2015 2:19pm

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Some people are capable of being nice despite the carrot and stick / man in the sky stuff!!!!!!

Indeed. Some of the most árseholy (:P) people I know are God botherers, thinking that hugging the altar on a Sunday while the beef roasts in the oven will ensure that St Peter will be waiting with a towel and locker key - in spite of the fact that they think only about themselves. I was invited into one such house a while back while I walked a neighbours dog that is kept chained 24/7 and who they would probably step over if anything was wrong with her, people who havent spoken to their own neighbours for years over a planning dispute - and I had to sit and listen to them shíteing on about our Lord and how I should go to this that and the other God finding retreat - felt like saying, listen why don't you just shut your pie hole and get out there and actually do something. I don't need you to convert me - I'm already out there doing what I can.

lukesmom · 09-04-2015 2:20pm

I totally agree with the op. I can't understand why people go along with the Catholic traditions like church weddings/baptism when they never step foot inside a church otherwise. What's the point????? I go to mass weekly and that is my own perogitive and beliefs but thousands pretend they are Catholics just to get the kids into schools and to please parents/in laws when getting married. Worse still having your little girl/boy make their communion when they receive no religious teachings outside of the home I.e going to mass etc, just so little Mary can dress up like her friends and not be left out. Sigh

Macy0161 · 09-04-2015 2:26pm

crockholm wrote: »

It does not matter.
The Bishops can say what they like using whater number they like,they are not going to have the undue influence they had in our Government that they had in the middle of the last Century.

The Bishops also have a right to air whatever veiws they hold,we are an open and free democracy,long may it continue-lobby Groups of all hues exist,I just don't see the Point of silencing the ones I disagree with.

Much as the anti-theists like to Think,this is not the 1950s,and we are not turning the Clock back.

There's still the exemptions to equality legislation though, and politicians still appear to be too afraid of the influence of (mainly) the Roman Catholic Church to remove it.

The CSO (maybe again due to the influence or perceived influence of the Church) have been pretty slow to address this imo. The tick box religion question is a pretty meaningless stat, given the way church attendances have been going. It'll be disappointing it they don't address this with some question about practicing a faith. (e.g. how many times outside of family ceremonies/ school, have each in the household attended mass/ prayer service/ service of worship).

09-04-2015 2:28pm

Irish people who seem to believe 'cultural Catholicism' is an Irish thing are as bad as Irish people who think thanking the busdriver is an Irish thing.

17 times out of 20, anywhere in the world that I've discussed religion with a person, they'll say "oh I'm [Jewish/ Catholic/ Lutheran/ Prebyterian/ Methodist], but I'm not religious'.

But I don't know anybody who gets so wound-up about it as Irish atheists.

To most people, in most cultures, this religious hangover is meaningless, but maybe slightly personal to the individual themselves.

Why care? Seriously. It's none of your business.

Just be honest with yourself. You're not a Catholic. That's ok.

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