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Dr Lydia Foy new case.

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    #362
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    According to the (US) National Transgender Discrimination Survey, 40% of transgender people have faced harassment when presenting identity documents that did not match their gender identity/expression. In addition, 15% report being denied entry or asked to leave because of gender mismatches, and 3% report facing physical assault due to mismatched ID.

    Is this what those opposed to the Bill propose as an alternative? Continued ignorance, harassment and potential physical violence?


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    #363
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    I find the gender != sex debate about as scientific as creationism.

    Although I may be a bit hard on creationism.


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    #364
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    I find the gender != sex debate about as scientific as creationism.

    Although I may be a bit hard on creationism.

    Go on...we are listening. What's your viewpoint on the case?


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    #365
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    Teyla Emmagan wrote: »
    I am delighted for Lydia Foy. Brave woman for sticking to her principles and conviction that she deserves to be recognised for who she really is. It is always hard to be the first to break a barrier, I hope this victory will bring great happiness to other transgender people in her position.

    Yes I hope she enjoys her "settlement" that comes out of the pockets of all the people in the country. All to change a few words on a meaningless document.


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    #366
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MadsL wrote: »
    I'd argue that the State Record is using the term incorrectly.
    http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/
    How so? It says right in your link that ""Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women." How is registering someone born with only male genitalia as male incorrect?
    Since my friend had the sex of male foisted on him as a child he never was able to correctly identify his gender in a way that was comfortable for him.

    There persists no way of legal being a third gender of neither male nor female.
    Intersex should be an option.


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    #367
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    MadsL wrote: »
    I'd argue that the State Record is using the term incorrectly.
    http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/

    Since my friend had the sex of male foisted on him as a child he never was able to correctly identify his gender in a way that was comfortable for him.

    There persists no way of legal being a third gender of neither male nor female.

    Actually Madsl isn't there actually a reference in the upcoming legislation about Sex changing with gender.
    (so that, if the acquired gender is the male
    gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s
    sex becomes that of a woman)

    I mentioned this before but I don't see the issue with chromosomal testing. This gender label if incorrect could be dealt with by the process outlined by the legislation.
    I have I only have a vague understanding of these issues but within western culture AFAIK we have always operated with a binary system of gender.

    I think understand the need and logic behind disentangling Gender from Biological sex but, bearing in mind I only have a shallow knowledge of this particular issue but I have studied biology to a relatively high level, with Homo Sapiens Sapiens, being truly neither Sex is vanishingly rare.
    I am refering to biological sex which is determined at its most basic level by allosomes not the primary sexual characteristics that are present.


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    #368
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Yes I hope she enjoys her "settlement" that comes out of the pockets of all the people in the country. All to change a few words on a meaningless document.


    A birth cert is meaningless now?


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    #369
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Give her the amended cert


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    #370
    Earl Turner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭Earl Turner


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Well her marriage cert and childrens birth certs contradict that.

    Plus the fact he was born a man! Look if he's a woman now fair enough but you can't deny reality.


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    #371
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    Nodin wrote: »
    A birth cert is meaningless now?

    It is in day to day life. What affect will it have on Foy?

    I have to laugh at all the "brave", "sticking to her principles" and "conviction" comments. Who knows she wasn't doing it for the money, publicity?
    Or is it taboo to question a persons motivation if they are the minority?


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    #372
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Yes I hope she enjoys her "settlement" that comes out of the pockets of all the people in the country. All to change a few words on a meaningless document.

    What's the worth of 23 years of proving your case over and over for 21 YEARS only to have the State literally ignore what they agreed to do in court? All the while being treated as a second class citizen.

    ..and as Nodin points out, a Birth Cert is meaningless now? Best shred mine so...


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    #373
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    MadsL wrote: »
    Go on...we are listening. What's your viewpoint on the case?

    I don't really care. Although resetting his birth cert is clearly a lie - like me getting my place of birth changed because mentally I felt I was a New Yorker.

    It's harmless enough on an individual level. I'd let people chop their lads of anytime.

    It's the "sex doesn't exist" crew which rankles.


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    #374
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Who knows she wasn't doing it for the money, publicity? Or is it taboo to question a persons motivation if they are the minority?

    Srsly??


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    #375
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Nodin wrote: »
    A birth cert is meaningless now?

    Apparantly yes. Since it can be fairly easily altered by dictate. It's certainly not a record in the normal sense anybody of "truth at birth".


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    #376
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    It is in day to day life. What affect will it have on Foy?

    I have to laugh at all the "brave", "sticking to her principles" and "conviction" comments. Who knows she wasn't doing it for the money, publicity?
    Or is it taboo to question a persons motivation if they are the minority?

    I doubt he is in it for the money TBF


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    #377
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    I don't really care. Although resetting his birth cert is clearly a lie - like me getting my place of birth changed because mentally I felt I was a New Yorker.

    No, it is not like that.
    It's harmless enough on an individual level. I'd let people chop their lads of anytime.

    Snigger, snigger?
    It's the "sex doesn't exist" crew which rankles.

    How does affect you exactly?


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    #378
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    MadsL wrote: »
    Srsly??

    Why do you have proof she wasn't in it for the money or publicity? I don't have proof either way but I'd gladly retract that statement if you can prove it wrong.


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    #379
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    nokia69 wrote: »
    I doubt she is in it for the money TBF

    FYP


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    #380
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Why do you have proof she wasn't in it for the money or publicity? I don't have proof either way but I'd gladly retract that statement if you can prove it wrong.

    Dignity of an answer...nah, you don't get one. I thought I'd seen the height of begrudgery but that's a peach right there.


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    #381
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    Apparantly yes. Since it can be fairly easily altered by dictate.

    If by 'fairly easily' you mean a 21 year legal marathon, then here we are. Now how does it affect you?


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    #382
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    MadsL wrote: »
    Dignity of an answer...nah, you don't get one. I thought I'd seen the height of begrudgery but that's a peach right there.

    I'll take that as a no. Thanks but I don't begrudge anything with relation to Foy.....even the settlement.


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    #383
    Teyla Emmagan
    Registered Users Posts: 5,641 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Yes I hope she enjoys her "settlement" that comes out of the pockets of all the people in the country. All to change a few words on a meaningless document.

    It's not meaningless. The birth cert is a piece of paper, but an important one. The judgement however is a recognition by the state that this woman has been wronged for YEARS as she has been driven to fight this ridiculous battle to have her identity acknowledged. Now she can travel under a passport that states she is a woman. There's no way she did this for the money, why would she fight such an ugly and public battle for so long? She did it to be recognised, and I think she's hugely brave.


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    #384
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    I find the gender != sex debate about as scientific as creationism.

    Although I may be a bit hard on creationism.

    I should probably know better than to even entertain posts like this, but... Ok, I'll bite.

    Transsexual Gene Link Identified
    Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleu
    Male-to-Female Transsexuals Show Sex-Atypical Hypothalamus Activation When Smelling Odorous Steroids
    Regional Grey Matter Variation in Male-to-Female Transsexualism
    A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity.
    White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study.
    A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality

    There's probably more known about the issue of transsexuality than there is about homosexuality, this is but a small amount of scientific evidence on the subject, there's absolutely loads more out there, and medical science is certainly painting a fuller picture of transsexuality. But it has been relatively demystified over the past decade. So yes, a person's gender-identity does not always correlate with their sex.


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    #385
    Uncle Ruckus
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Uncle Ruckus


    Absolutely. Just people have evolved physically over time so too has the brain. Gender is defined by ones brain sex. Sometimes there are anomalies-such as inter-sexed people. Also sometimes there are anomalies where ones physical sex is misalligned with ones brain sex-such as transsexuals.


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    #386
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,932 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Chunners wrote: »
    I don't understand what you mean? from my own perspective this law won't really make any difference to my life or at least nothing would change for me if I were to change my birthcert to female anyway.

    Its a proposed law - we actually dont know that detail yet.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #387
    Chunners
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭Chunners


    Links234 wrote: »
    I should probably know better than to even entertain posts like this, but... Ok, I'll bite.


    There's probably more known about the issue of transsexuality than there is about homosexuality, this is but a small amount of scientific evidence on the subject, there's absolutely loads more out there, and medical science is certainly painting a fuller picture of transsexuality. But it has been relatively demystified over the past decade. So yes, a person's gender-identity does not always correlate with their sex.

    No point getting all technical hon, sure they won't read any of that, best just to keep it simple and just say "Your gender is in your head, your sex is in your pants". That pretty much sums up what all those URLs will tell them anyway.


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    #388
    Chunners
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭Chunners


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Its a proposed law - we actually dont know that detail yet.

    Unless it includes changing my name on my birth cert too I know it won't make any difference to my life


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    #389
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,932 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    He/she was still born a man though. Don't see how that can be denied.

    Its really rude and inappropriate to say he/she. She was assigned male at birth. Thats true.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #390
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,932 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    It is in day to day life. What affect will it have on Foy?

    I have to laugh at all the "brave", "sticking to her principles" and "conviction" comments. Who knows she wasn't doing it for the money, publicity?
    Or is it taboo to question a persons motivation if they are the minority?

    Are you for real? Would you have sex reassignment surgery and a 20 year battle through the courts just for the money?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #391
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Why do you have proof she wasn't in it for the money or publicity? I don't have proof either way but I'd gladly retract that statement if you can prove it wrong.

    I could say something about burden of proof, or proving a negative, but...

    You owe me €5. Can you prove you don't owe me €5? I don't have proof either way, but I'll retract my claim if you can prove it wrong.
    PS. It was a verbal agreement.


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