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Dr Lydia Foy new case.

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    #302
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/lydia-foy-settles-transgender-birth-cert-case-against-state-1.1979314

    Apparently it takes 7 years for the Irish State to admit that they are in the wrong.

    Congratulations to Dr Foy for the persistence in this case and the tremendous victory for the trans gendered in Ireland.


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    #303
    Chunners
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭Chunners


    Congats to her and all but I can't see how it will make any difference to us since we can't change our names on our birthcert, I could go get this done when the law is changed but my birthcert will still have my male name on it (and it's not even slightly androgynous or anything) so I'm still always going to have to use my deed poll along with my birthcert for anything like passport, banks, social welfare.


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    #304
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    "aimed at securing a birth certificate in her acquired female gender"

    That's an oxymoron. No mention of how much the settlement was.


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    #305
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    "aimed at securing a birth certificate in her acquired female gender"

    That's an oxymoron. No mention of how much the settlement was.

    What is oxymoronic about showing the correct gender on an official state record?

    As for a settlement, the way the State has jerked her around she would deserve every penny as a trailblazer.


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    #306
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    MadsL wrote: »
    What is oxymoronic about showing the correct gender on an official state record?

    As for a settlement, the way the State has jerked her around she would deserve every penny as a trailblazer.

    Because it is a birth certificate. Foy was born male.


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    #307
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    MadsL wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/lydia-foy-settles-transgender-birth-cert-case-against-state-1.1979314

    Apparently it takes 7 years for the Irish State to admit that they are in the wrong.

    Congratulations to Dr Foy for the persistence in this case and the tremendous victory for the trans gendered in Ireland.

    Took a quick look through the revised act and it seems fairly sensible. Any clarification of the how the system actually works in terms of sealed records and linkage to the birth certificate, e.g is it sealed till X years after death, whats the confidential link etc.
    This is mainly out of curiosity about how this will play out in terms of genealogical research (which I admit is an issue of debatable importance, though family connections are an emotive topic for some people).


    The one thing that did strike me though is the section about gender related offenses, shame that issue can't be acted upon. :rolleyes:
    Chunners wrote: »
    Congats to her and all but I can't see how it will make any difference to us since we can't change our names on our birthcert, I could go get this done when the law is changed but my birthcert will still have my male name on it (and it's not even slightly androgynous or anything) so I'm still always going to have to use my deed poll along with my birthcert for anything like passport, banks, social welfare.

    At a guess I presume the legal (though perhaps not moral) justification for this is because the Right to Privacy only applies to medical history.


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    #308
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Because it is a birth certificate. Foy was born male.

    Foy was born with male genitalia, but born with a female GENDER. That is why they call it gender reassignment. Her Birth Certificate has been corrected.

    Is this really hard to grasp?


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    #309
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Because it is a birth certificate. Foy was born male.

    Gender ≠ Sex


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    #310
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    MadsL wrote: »
    Foy was born with male genitalia, but born with a female GENDER. That is why they call it gender reassignment. Her Birth Certificate has been corrected.

    Is this really hard to grasp?

    Ok so Foy wants any historical reference to herself as a male/masculine removed?


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    #311
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Ok so Foy wants any historical reference to herself as a male/masculine removed?

    She wants her gender fully recognised by the State. Why do you object to that?


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    #312
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    MadsL wrote: »
    She wants her gender fully recognised by the State. Why do you object to that?

    You didn't answer my question. Is she renouncing her marriage or the fact that she fathered 2 children?


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    #313
    Chunners
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭Chunners


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    At a guess I presume the legal (though perhaps not moral) justification for this is because the Right to Privacy only applies to medical history.

    I don't understand what you mean? from my own perspective this law won't really make any difference to my life or at least nothing would change for me if I were to change my birthcert to female anyway.


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    #314
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    You didn't answer my question. Is she renouncing her marriage or the fact that she fathered 2 children?

    There was a question? I thought you had decided that this idea of historical erasure was a fact.

    Here is the impact of the Gender Recognition Bill. Have a look at paragraph 4. [source]

    (1) Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender shall become, for all purposes, the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).
    The person shall be deemed to be of the gender shown on the gender recognition certificate from the date of the certificate which shall be the date on which the Minister made the decision to issue the certificate.

    (2) A person issued with a gender recognition certificate may marry a person of the gender opposite to that shown on the gender recognition certificate or contract a civil partnership with a person of the same gender as that shown on the gender recognition certificate.

    (3) The issuing of a gender recognition certificate to a person whose birth is registered in Ireland shall entitle him/her to a new birth certificate or (where applicable) a new entry in the foreign birth register maintained by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade.

    (4) All rights, responsibilities and consequences of actions by the person in their original gender prior to the date of recognition shall remain unaffected

    ..so prior actions; marriage, fatherhood..remain unaffected.

    What do you think has actually changed with regard to her legal Fatherhood of those children?


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    #315
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Chunners wrote: »
    I don't understand what you mean? from my own perspective this law won't really make any difference to my life or at least nothing would change for me if I were to change my birthcert to female anyway.

    I understood your point that this won't really impact you as you have a very masculine name, however I was pointing out that AFAIK the mechanism for this change or at least the mechanisms for the legal challenge was that having to produce a birth-cert with a different gender violates you right to privacy, specifically relating to Medical History.


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    #316
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    For those who are unaware, the birth cert is often used in an official capacity, this is a very good video on the subject:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_MwuaF1KfM


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    #317
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Dr Foy was born a male

    he can have all the surgery he wants but the simple fact can't be changed


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    #318
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    nokia69 wrote: »
    Dr Foy was born a male

    he can have all the surgery he wants but the simple fact can't be changed

    No-one is seeking to change any facts. Merely that the State recognises the correct gender.

    What is the problem exactly?

    I have a friend who was born with both primary genitalia - what are his simple facts??


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    #319
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    MadsL wrote: »
    No-one is seeking to change any facts. Merely that the State recognises the correct gender.

    What is the problem exactly?

    I have a friend who was born with both primary genitalia - what are his simple facts??

    the DR and people like him want to change his birth cert from male to female

    will I be allowed to change the dates on my birth cert to what I think my real age is, I'm a 21 year old in a 31 year old body, thats the way I feel, who cares about the facts


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    #320
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,983 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    MadsL wrote: »
    No-one is seeking to change any facts. Merely that the State recognises the correct gender.

    What is the problem exactly?

    I have a friend who was born with both primary genitalia - what are his simple facts??

    He is a hermaphrodite.


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    #321
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    nokia69 wrote: »
    the DR and people like him want to change his birth cert from male to female

    will I be allowed to change the dates on my birth cert to what I think my real age is, I'm a 21 year old in a 31 year old body, thats the way I feel, who cares about the facts

    I see you completely dodged my question. What should my friend's birth certificate read? Male /Female/Blank?

    Take your time.


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    #322
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    MadsL wrote: »
    I see you completely dodged my question. What should my friend's birth certificate read? Male /Female/Blank?

    Take your time.

    thats not for me to say, ask a doctor

    since you referred to your friend as male then maybe thats what they put on the cert

    but no matter what answer I give you will say I'm wrong, therefore Dr Foy should have the right to change his birth cert


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    #323
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    nokia69 wrote: »
    thats not for me to say, ask a doctor

    since you referred to your friend as male then maybe thats what they put on the cert

    but no matter what answer I give you will say I'm wrong, therefore Dr Foy should have the right to change his birth cert

    Doctors don't write Birth Certificates. As to my friend, his parents decided he was male, and had his vagina surgically closed. He now teaches parents about hermaphrodism.

    Your statement makes no sense, why does what I say confer any rights? I'm trying to understand your objections...why does it matter to you?


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    #324
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    MadsL wrote: »
    Doctors don't write Birth Certificates. As to my friend, his parents decided he was male, and had his vagina surgically closed. He now teaches parents about hermaphrodism.

    Your statement makes no sense, why does what I say confer any rights? I'm trying to understand your objections...why does it matter to you?

    well why does it matter to anyone

    I think legal documents should tell the truth and not be changed or falsified, just to make someone feel better about themselves

    the truth is important, is it not


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    #325
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    nokia69 wrote: »
    well why does it matter to anyone

    I think legal documents should tell the truth and not be changed or falsified, just to make someone feel better about themselves

    the truth is important, is it not


    The truth is that the Dr's gender was always female.


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    #326
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    nokia69 wrote: »
    well why does it matter to anyone

    I think legal documents should tell the truth and not be changed or falsified, just to make someone feel better about themselves

    the truth is important, is it not

    Which is a more important 'truth' Dr Lydia Foy is a woman or Dr Lydia Foy was born and assigned the gender of male?

    If the latter, why is it your or anyone else's concern?

    Doesn't it make more sense to have all official documents telling the truth as it stands now.


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    #327
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,181 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    nokia69 wrote: »
    well why does it matter to anyone

    I think legal documents should tell the truth and not be changed or falsified, just to make someone feel better about themselves

    the truth is important, is it not

    Where's the humanity or compassion for Lydia? Are you completely heartless?


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    #328
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,946 ✭✭✭Daith


    nokia69 wrote: »
    Dr Foy was born a male

    No, Dr Foy was assigned the gender of male at birth by a doctor.


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    #329
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    Nodin wrote: »
    The truth is that the Dr's gender was always female.

    Obviously not if he lived as a man, married a woman and fathered 2 children for a good chunk of his life.


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    #330
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Where's the humanity or compassion for Lydia? Are you completely heartless?

    I do feel sorry for the man, if cutting off his cock and balls makes him feel better then more power to him

    but I don't think its right for the state to pander to his delusions


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    #331
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,946 ✭✭✭Daith


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Obviously not if he lived as a man, married a woman and fathered 2 children for a good chunk of his life.

    And I've had sex with a girl but I'm gay as Christmas. Things are not black and white.


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