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Government to reverse some Public Secor Pay cuts

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    #632
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,223 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Ah Godge.

    If you are really going to try and argue that excessive sick leave in the public sector was and isn't an issue then you have lost all credibility.

    You are unwilling to cede any point whatsoever that goes against the Public Sector.


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    #633
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Not strictly true...the 'wasters' will now get a certfor the week instead of going sick for the day.


    Who gives them the certs? Private sector doctors.

    Still no PM... (you can just apologise for accusing me of spoofing?)


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    #634
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Regardless of how sick leave in the public sector is measured, it is certain that:
    a. The sick leave entitlements up to now were very generous but not overly so. B. They were abused by a sizable minority c. Mainly on account of this sick leave entitlements have been halved d. This will bring considerable savings to the exchequer


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    #635
    sock puppet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Which organisation, public or private, sacks 10% of its staff for being incompetent?

    It's common in banking and some consulting firms. Not necessarily incompetent but just for being below your peers. It works for some organisations, though these would be prestigious firms and those who leave do well anyway. I'm not aware of many other examples other than Microsoft who had something similar, and it didn't go particularly well for them.


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    #636
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    noodler wrote: »
    Ah Godge.

    If you are really going to try and argue that excessive sick leave in the public sector was and isn't an issue then you have lost all credibility.

    You are unwilling to cede any point whatsoever that goes against the Public Sector.

    Personally, in 4 years in the PS I haven't encountered a bad attitude towards sick leave in the offices I've worked in. I suppose it depends on the culture of the particular dept or office.

    What there is, however, is a time & attendance system which means all sick leave is recorded, including as Godge mentioned, people out for months - years due to very serious illnesses and who are off pay after a few months.

    Since a majority of the country are employed in SME's, I seriously question whether the figure quoted as the private sector average is

    1.) accurate, given the absence in my experience of a penalised system to capture sick leave absences and produce a figure when the CSO come a knockin'... Much more likely that a lot of the respondent firms just stuck their thumb in the air, squinted, and picked a number.

    2.) calculated on a like for like basis - in the SME sector, a person out on very long term sick leave of the type I mention above, may easily be out of sight and out of mind...

    I AM NOT SAYING that no-one in the PS abuses the self-certified sick days, but in my personal experience I can't think of anyone I worked with / managed, who did. For instance I know for a fact that the wife of a friend, who works in a VEC, uses her uncertified days as effectively additional annual leave.

    I AM SAYING that for the 2 reasons set out above I'd take the stated discrepancy and cost figures with a pinch of salt.


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    #637
    golfwallah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    The sick leave cost for 2014 will be down massively on 2012 as all the wasters have expired all their entitlements for the near future.
    ezra_pound wrote: »
    Regardless of how sick leave in the public sector is measured, it is certain that:
    a. The sick leave entitlements up to now were very generous but not overly so. B. They were abused by a sizable minority c. Mainly on account of this sick leave entitlements have been halved d. This will bring considerable savings to the exchequer

    I hope you are right that the changed sick leave entitlements will bring considerable savings, as there is still scope for longer periods of paid leave in certain specified circumstances:
    http://hr.per.gov.ie/sick-leave/

    In 2012, attempts by public sector management to find savings of €25m were not successful, according to this Irish Times article:
    Under plans to revise sick leave, drawn up as part of the State’s EU-IMF bailout, management in the public sector agreed to try to reduce sick leave by €25 million in 2012.
    However, internal Department of Pubic Expenditure documents show that, during 2012, sick leave in most areas of the public sector remained broadly the same.

    Hopefully, the new regulations will enable p.s. management to do the job more effectively.


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    #638
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Quote:
    The rate of sick leave for the estimated 300,000 employees in the public sector is almost twice that of the private sector.

    this is just like the "average" pay levels bandied about

    the simple reason for this is that the Public Sector provides paid sick leave to staff....not all of the Private sector does so therefore the averages are different

    it is not an unreasonable deduction that people faced with losing pay will not take sick leave...even when sick.....this may save businesses money....but it is shortsighted and not good for either the employee or the company.


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    #639
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Hopefully, the new regulations will enable p.s. management to do the job more effectively.

    or maybe working in the health servive or ion the emrgency services simply results in a higher level of illness and injury than sitting at a desk?


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    #640
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    d. This will bring considerable savings to the exchequer

    well, no it won't

    it is an efficiency saving really


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    #641
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Riskymove wrote: »
    well, no it won't

    it is an efficiency saving really

    True.


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    #642
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Godge wrote: »
    http://www.apsc.gov.au/home/latest-news/remuneration-report

    An Australian government report that distinguishes between increments and pay scales.

    fair play to them they distinguished between a pay rise and a pay rise


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    #643
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    chopper6 wrote: »
    How do you intend to 'not tolerate it'?

    What exactly are you going to do?


    I will be voting for anyone who is against pay rises in the public sector and by keeping it in focus on here and other boards which are looked at.


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    #644
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    fliball123 wrote: »
    I will be voting for anyone who is against pay rises in the public sector and by keeping it in focus on here and other boards which are looked at.

    So you reckon the Govt will be listening to your anti-PS rantings on the internet and will change policy accordingly?


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    #645
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    noodler wrote: »
    Ah Godge.

    If you are really going to try and argue that excessive sick leave in the public sector was and isn't an issue then you have lost all credibility.

    You are unwilling to cede any point whatsoever that goes against the Public Sector.

    No, that is not what I am saying.

    There is unbdoubtedly problems in parts of the public sector as the comparisons between different parts show anomalies especially as you know you are comparing like with like (though I will come back to that as there are some differences).

    However, any comparison between public and private has to take account of the fact that long-term illnesses like cancer and strokes are treated more compassionately and with more paid sick-leave in the public sector than in the private sector.

    For example, take a public service office of ten people where two people are out for six months in 2014 with cancer and stroke. If nobody else takes any sick leave, the average sick leave for that office is 36.5 days per person (where you are out sick over a weekend it counts as 7 days so two people out for six months counts as 365 days). That would be among the highest in the country yet it would all come down to the unfortunate circumstances of two people. In the private sector, they would have been off pay and on disability after six weeks.


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    #646
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    fliball123 wrote: »
    I will be voting for anyone who is against pay rises in the public sector and by keeping it in focus on here and other boards which are looked at.


    I can guarantee that every party in the next election will be promising to examine and restore pay for at least some public servants.

    There might be a fringe lunatic independent (Shane Ross?) who might argue against it.


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    #647
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,223 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Godge wrote: »
    I can guarantee that every party in the next election will be promising to examine and restore pay for at least some public servants.

    There might be a fringe lunatic independent (Shane Ross?) who might argue against it.


    Ah the tacit implication that any politician who is against the reversal of public sector pay cuts must be a lunatic!

    You are good!


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    #648
    Paulzx
    Registered Users Posts: 1,967 ✭✭✭Paulzx


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    Regardless of how sick leave in the public sector is measured, it is certain that:
    a. The sick leave entitlements up to now were very generous but not overly so. B. They were abused by a sizable minority c. Mainly on account of this sick leave entitlements have been halved d. This will bring considerable savings to the exchequer


    The reduction in the sick leave benifets is nothing more than a smokescreen to allow management duck out of confronting and dealing with the abusers of the system. It will save nothing.

    The majority of employees will never come even close to exceeding the new lower limits let alone have come close to using the old limits. There will be zero saving here.

    The savings could easily have been achieved by leaving the existing limits in place and properly managing the defaulters i.e withdrawing the sick leave privileges ( and they are a privilege, not a right).

    Reducing the sick leave was done for two reasons.

    1-Optics. It allowed the government to claim it was taking on the "problem" of sick leave in the public sector and at the same time placate the IBECs and Mark "the whinger" Fielding of ISME.

    2- It allowed senior managment duck out of taking on the abusers of the system and the accompanying visits to the Labour Court, Tribunals etc.


    The system never needed to be changed. The management and oversight of it did. So, the people who get punished are the ones who have never abused it but in the future need to genuinely avail of it but have less benifits.

    Another Irish solution


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    #649
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    noodler wrote: »
    Ah the tacit implication that any politician who is against the reversal of public sector pay cuts must be a lunatic!

    I would agree...and it would be political lunacy to oppose the reversals too as the PS are one of the largest voting blocks in the country.


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    #650
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    chopper6 wrote: »
    So you reckon the Govt will be listening to your anti-PS rantings on the internet and will change policy accordingly?

    Still no PM... any chance of an apology?


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    #651
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Nope and nope.

    So just to be clear:

    You've accused me of spoofing, and asked for proof of what I've stated as fact,

    I've told you I'm happy to do so via PM if you want to contact me(since I would be giving you the names and locations of specific civil servants and their businesses which I am obviously not going to do on the public forum),

    But now you neither want the proof nor will you accept that you were wrong and I wasn't spoofing... ??


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    #652
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    barneystinson wrote: »
    So just to be clear:

    You've accused me of spoofing, and asked for proof of what I've stated as fact,

    I've told you I'm happy to do so via PM if you want to contact me(since I would be giving you the names and locations of specific civil servants and their businesses which I am obviously not going to do on the public forum),

    But now you neither want the proof nor will you accept that you were wrong and I wasn't spoofing... ??

    I don't want to know..stop bothering me and derailing the thread.

    You said it in public and I asked you what art of the public sector were they working in,again on thread.

    I've no desire to send you any PM's.


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    #653
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    chopper6 wrote: »
    I don't want to know..stop bothering me and derailing the thread.

    So you've changed your mind, and accept that PS workers can have other employments or run their own businesses?

    In which case you should also apologise for accusing me of spoofing.

    And also accept that your suggestion that every PS worker in the country is 100% tax compliant just because their PS salary is paid under PAYE, is incorrect.


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    #654
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    barneystinson wrote: »
    So you've changed your mind, and accept that PS workers can have other employments or run their own businesses?

    In which case you should also apologise for accusing me of spoofing.

    And also accept that your suggestion that every PS worker in the country is 100% tax compliant just because their PS salary is paid under PAYE, is incorrect.


    You've asserted that you *know* of staff that are holding down other jobs and running their own businesses.

    The onus is on you to provide proof of that.


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    #655
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,223 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    chopper6 wrote: »
    I would agree...and it would be political lunacy to oppose the reversals too as the PS are one of the largest voting blocks in the country.

    It is that type of thinking that got us into trouble in the first place.


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    #656
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    chopper6 wrote: »
    You've asserted that you *know* of staff that are holding down other jobs and running their own businesses.

    The onus is on you to provide proof of that.

    And yet you don't seem to want it. As I've said I can give you names, and details of their businesses. Do you want them? I'm not going to put them on a public forum, but I'll PM you details if you want them?

    Edit: And to be clear, I said I know people who run businesses, I don't know people who have other PAYE jobs. I'm sure there are some, but not personally known to me.


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    #657
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    noodler wrote: »
    It is that type of thinking that got us into trouble in the first place.

    Was it indeed?

    Not the "Lets's build houses with credit and all become amatuer speculators and get rich that way"?

    Historical revisionism at it's worst.


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    #658
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    noodler wrote: »
    Ah the tacit implication that any politician who is against the reversal of public sector pay cuts must be a lunatic!

    You are good!


    Thank you, but it would be lunacy.

    It would also be lunacy to promise social welfare cuts and income tax rises.

    Our friend filiball won't know who to vote for. It will be interesting if s/he is around at the next election to ask who is getting the vote.


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    #659
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,223 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Was it indeed?

    Not the "Lets's build houses with credit and all become amatuer speculators and get rich that way"?

    Historical revisionism at it's worst.

    Why do you constantly misrepresent posts so you can play the victim?


    Politicans pandering to the whims of their populace in terms of income tax breaks, capital tax breaks, social welfare increases, public sector pay increases and various capital programmes.

    So yes, politicans, on both sides of the fence, pandering to the populace rather than implementing a delfationary fiscal policy in the mid 2000s caused a huge part of this mess.


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    #660
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    noodler wrote: »
    Why do you constantly misrepresent posts so you can play the victim?


    Politicans pandering to the whims of their populace in terms of income tax breaks, capital tax breaks, social welfare increases, public sector pay increases and various capital programmes.

    So yes, politicans, on both sides of the fence, pandering to the populace rather than implementing a delfationary fiscal policy in the mid 2000s caused a huge part of this mess.


    The old "hindsight is 20/20"? eh?

    I bet you refused all short-term gain at the time for the betterment of the country in the long term?

    It seems to me that most of the people whinging about public sector pay and pensions were happy to make hay while the sun shined but made no provision for thier future.

    Plenty of people driving round in brand new jeeps without a penny saved for a rainy day now they're blaming benchmarking or whaever the Indo is babbling about as a reason for thier woes.


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    #661
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    I can guarantee that every party in the next election will be promising to examine and restore pay for at least some public servants.

    There might be a fringe lunatic independent (Shane Ross?) who might argue against it.
    I dont know about this with FG... If they think by throwing this bone to Labour that they can be seen as the ones who are opposed to it, appear good to non PS and it will still go ahead anyway (assuming FG and Labour are in coalition the next time around)...


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