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Government to reverse some Public Secor Pay cuts

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    #602
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    It is a pay rise..if you guys were not being over paid you would not of had your pay cut.
    Fliball I agree with a lot of what you are saying, the government dont cut on a "this is fair basis" we could argue here over what "fair" is... They simply decided to cut almost everything, "fair" doesnt come into it with that lot! The young and workers in general got screwed, so amongst others the sacred cow pensioners could go on living the life of reilly & before others but in, it is the life of reilly as far as I'm concerned, go and see the comparison in non broke rick countries. My dad is German and recently reached retirement age, E90 per week is what he gets from the German government, (he moved here in the early 70's and with their system, what you get out is based on what you paid in) We can start from there if we really want a discussion on what is "fair" Ps if he were living in Germany on top of the vastly lower rate, I think a medical card is the only other perk you get, unlike the endless gravy train here!


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    #603
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Godge wrote: »
    The appropriate salary scale for a post is not adjusted (i.e. there is no pay rise) when an increment is awarded, the person just moves up the salary scale.

    For example,

    http://hr.per.gov.ie/files/2011/09/Terms-Conditions-01-February-20101.pdf

    "Most civil servants are on a pay scale with annual increments up to a maximum point."

    The maximum point changes if there is a pay increase, it does not change if an increment is awarded to an individual.


    Well we will have to agree to disagree on that because myself and the rest of the known world would disagree

    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/pay-rise

    http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/pay-rise

    http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/pay-raise

    http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/pay-rise


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    #604
    LordNorbury
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭LordNorbury


    Monife wrote: »
    To receive your increment you have to have achieved a satisfactory rating in your annual performance review and have satisfactory attendance levels.

    It is meaningless, everyone gets satisfactory, making a completely pointless form filling process out of the whole entire exercise! Hence why uncertified sick leave in the PS is twice that of the private sector.


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    #605
    LordNorbury
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭LordNorbury


    ardmacha wrote: »
    I would argue that while health has real problems, policing is better and education is clearly up to international norms.

    Great, how many Gardai and teachers did we dismiss last year for incompetence? There are around 10,000 teachers I reckon in the country and the same number of Gardai. By any normal rational assessment, 10% of them probably shouldn't still be there, because they are not performing properly. Yet there they will stay, in the case of teachers, wrecking the educational prospects of young kids, because the union protect will protect them at all costs.


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    #606
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    chopper6 wrote: »
    I asked what part of the PS does this "friend" work in that he can be a publican as well.

    And I told you that you're welcome to PM and I'll give you all the info you need, to allow you to come back and apologise for accusing me of spoofing.

    You haven't PM'd me yet.


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    #607
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    LordNorbury wrote: »
    It is in the private sector. I never in my life heard of a set up in the private sector where people pass through a pay scale automatically and unimpeded, as a matter of absolutely automatic entitlement, without other factors such as (1) performance and productivity (2) peer review (3) attendance and (4) your general attitude towards your employment in terms of your current and future potential/value to the organisation.


    .


    Incremental salary scales are common in many organisations.

    Dunnes, Easons, Superquinn (not up-to-date since the takeover), all the main banks and insurance companies all have incremental scales, some as little as 3-4 points and some needing more than a year but they are there.

    I did a lengthy post on this about three/four years ago on boards.

    By the way, all of the 1-4 points above apply to public servants.

    http://hr.per.gov.ie/pmds-2013/


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    #608
    Monife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,014 ✭✭✭Monife


    LordNorbury wrote: »
    It is meaningless, everyone gets satisfactory, making a completely pointless form filling process out of the whole entire exercise!

    Have you got documentary evidence of this? No, didn't think so.

    Also, read my subsequent post about someone not getting their increments.


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    #609
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    By any normal rational assessment, 10% of them probably shouldn't still be there, because they are not performing properly.

    Which organisation, public or private, sacks 10% of its staff for being incompetent?


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    #610
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Well we will have to agree to disagree on that because myself and the rest of the known world would disagree

    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/pay-rise

    http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/pay-rise

    http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/pay-raise

    http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/pay-rise



    http://www.apsc.gov.au/home/latest-news/remuneration-report

    An Australian government report that distinguishes between increments and pay scales.


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    #611
    LordNorbury
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭LordNorbury


    Godge wrote: »
    Incremental salary scales are common in many organisations.

    Dunnes, Easons, Superquinn (not up-to-date since the takeover), all the main banks and insurance companies all have incremental scales, some as little as 3-4 points and some needing more than a year but they are there.

    I did a lengthy post on this about three/four years ago on boards.

    By the way, all of the 1-4 points above apply to public servants.

    http://hr.per.gov.ie/pmds-2013/

    So if the 4 points above apply in to public servants, how come we have no teachers being refused a transition across this incremental pay scale? How come we have seen zero teachers and Gardai fired for incompetence?

    Am I imagining that there was a report out the other day that slated Gardai for the absolutely rotten culture that is at the centre of Irish policing?!? They couldn't even fire the secretary general of the Dept. of Justice, nope we can't get rid of the man at the top, he gets to keep his 200K salary, we'll just move him sideways into some other area where he will probably cause less damage.

    Is this what you call accountability and sound performance management?!?


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    #612
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    Monife wrote: »
    Have you got documentary evidence of this? No, didn't think so.

    Also, read my subsequent post about someone not getting their increments.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/civil-service-performance-review-deemed-failure-as-majority-pass-1.1621423

    "new figures for 2012 show the performance of just 0.08 per cent of employees was ranked as “unacceptable”"


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    #613
    LordNorbury
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭LordNorbury


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Which organisation, public or private, sacks 10% of its staff for being incompetent?

    An organisation I previously worked in, one of the largest employers in Ireland by the way, refused pay increases to 10% of its workforce ever year, this was company policy.


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    #614
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    LordNorbury wrote: »
    Great, how many Gardai and teachers did we dismiss last year for incompetence? There are around 10,000 teachers I reckon in the country and the same number of Gardai. By any normal rational assessment, 10% of them probably shouldn't still be there, because they are not performing properly. Yet there they will stay, in the case of teachers, wrecking the educational prospects of young kids, because the union protect will protect them at all costs.

    The statement in bold is not rational.

    It is difficult to get figures on those fired. Like in private sector companies, it is much easier to go to someone and say, do you want to resign and get a reference letter or do you want to be fired and get no reference letter. Guess what? In most cases, both in the private and public sector, the person resigns. In the private sector, they often get a little payment to help them out the door - saves on any costs incurred with solicitors and rights commissioners.


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    #615
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    LordNorbury wrote: »
    An organisation I previously worked in, one of the largest employers in Ireland by the way, refused pay increases to 10% of its workforce ever year, this was company policy.


    Probably one of the call-centre type organisations. I remember talking to a senior executive in O2 who was proud of their 26% annual turnover rate.

    It all depends on the type of organisation that you want to run. Do you need well-qualified specialists who will be loyal to the organisation and build it up? In that case, you won't refuse 10% of the workforce a pay increase.

    Do you just need bodies to answer queries and phonecalls or take orders or clean in as efficient a way as possible? Well then, denying pay increases to the 10% least inefficient will help you keep competitive as they leave.

    The public service, by and large, falls into the first type of organisation.


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    #616
    Monife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,014 ✭✭✭Monife


    srsly78 wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/civil-service-performance-review-deemed-failure-as-majority-pass-1.1621423

    "new figures for 2012 show the performance of just 0.08 per cent of employees was ranked as “unacceptable”"

    Your statement was still incorrect, you claimed everyone got a satisfactory rating.


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    #617
    carpejugulum
    Registered Users Posts: 523 ✭✭✭carpejugulum


    Godge wrote: »
    It all depends on the type of organisation that you want to run. Do you need well-qualified specialists who will be loyal to the organisation and build it up?
    ...
    The public service, by and large, falls into the first type of organisation.
    lol

    Civil servant says there is 'institutionalised' culture of sick leave


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    #618
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    Monife wrote: »
    Your statement was still incorrect, you claimed everyone got a satisfactory rating.

    No, you just misread my post it seems. The phrase was "pretty much noone", which is roughly equal to 0.08% no?


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    #619
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    carpejugulum wrote: »
    lol

    Civil servant says there is 'institutionalised' culture of sick leave

    "A mid-ranking civil servant says there is an "institutionalised" culture of sick leave in the public secto"

    Generalisation again. Does this person have any clue about the public sector as a whole, or only her section? Does she know all about the culture in the Naval Service, the NRA, TCD or even the Revenue? There may be problem areas, but these should be dealt with specifically, generalities are of no use whatsoever.


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    #620
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I appreciate there are all the other costs involved etc. But my point was and I was actually trying to play devils advocate for the PS, when just the pay rates are compared with other countries, are they comparing gross or net, because if its gross, how valid are the comparisons given the ridiculous marginal rate and how low it kicks in here and then if you wanted to go even further the cost of living as you say...

    I would personally use the gross figure, it's the industry standard IMHO.
    But it's a little different in the PS. We got a new member of staff recently, quite senior (60k-70k scale), technical, professional position, they came from the PrvS, like I did(only I'm on a lot lower;))

    They were shocked with their take home, they never realised the extras that you pay in, pension & levy. They just assumed they could work out their take home based on the PrvS salaries.


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    #621
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    fliball123 wrote: »
    How much did we owe back in 2008? How much do we owe now?

    How you can say we are ok when we still be borrowing in 2016 and we will owe more again than now. How is that being ok?

    So you think that the increasing percentage we have to pay to service our debt as we continue borrowing is ok with you..Thank god your not taoiseach..
    So less for services and welfare as well as meaning more taxes or borrowing more and in this equation ps want pay rises above increments? REALLY thats ok..

    Well pal its not ok by me and it will not be tolerated any party spinning the tune of ps pay rises will get a bump of 300k but will be blanked by pretty much everyone else. As everyone has connected the dots a pay rise for the 300k means a pay cut for the rest (as the money has to be found somewhere) and yeah I am using the ps logic of tax increase = pay cut :)

    We are one of the most progressive income tax paying bases in the world
    We pay a very high % which kicks in at a very low level
    When you take indirect taxation we are a very high tax ecconomy and do we get a health in return for that..NO we have pay for that aswell.
    We are now getting charged for water..we just have not got the bill yet..thats coming in 2016 and you guys want pay rises in the same here :)
    Low property tax which will go and after what people have lumped out on the historic stamp duty..How does that measure up when you put that into the equation

    and I am not the only one who will not tolerate it.
    When people wake up to the PS pay rise = tax payer pay cut..It will not be tolerated by anyone

    Lots of data out there that suggests we have one of the highest pay for public sector employees in the world

    How do you intend to 'not tolerate it'?

    What exactly are you going to do?


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    #622
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    LordNorbury wrote: »
    An organisation I previously worked in, one of the largest employers in Ireland by the way, refused pay increases to 10% of its workforce ever year, this was company policy.

    10% of them must be crap workers so.


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    #623
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    chopper6 wrote: »
    10% of them must be crap workers so.

    Still no PM ...


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    #624
    funny_fecker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭funny_fecker


    chopper6 wrote: »
    And what department in the PS do they work in that allows them to run a pub empire as well as doing their day jobs?

    You're spoofing,plain and simple.

    so you never heard of the " jobbing cop "

    guard in my local station was a brick layer throughout his years in the force , he,s retired now and is sheep farming


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    #625
    carpejugulum
    Registered Users Posts: 523 ✭✭✭carpejugulum


    ardmacha wrote: »
    "Generalisation again. Does this person have any clue about the public sector as a whole, or only her section? Does she know all about the culture in the Naval Service, the NRA, TCD or even the Revenue? There may be problem areas, but these should be dealt with specifically, generalities are of no use whatsoever.
    €430m sick leave bill in public sector ‘unsustainable’
    The rate of sick leave for the estimated 300,000 employees in the public sector is almost twice that of the private sector.


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    #626
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    chopper6 wrote: »
    10% of them must be crap workers so.

    Still no PM...


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    #627
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    carpejugulum wrote: »
    €430m sick leave bill in public sector ‘unsustainable’
    Three days uncertified leave per annum.

    After two consecutive days you must produce a doctors cert.

    Amazing to think though that people who work with patients,prisoners,members of the public and schoolkids might get sick occasionally.


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    #628
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Three days uncertified leave per annum.

    After two consecutive days you must produce a doctors cert.

    Actually it's 7 in two rolling years. In 2012 it was 7 in one year.

    The sick leave cost for 2014 will be down massively on 2012 as all the wasters have expired all their entitlements for the near future.


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    #629
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    Actually it's 7 in two rolling years. In 2012 it was 7 in one year.

    The sick leave cost for 2014 will be down massively on 2012 as all the wasters have expired all their entitlements for the near future.

    Not strictly true...the 'wasters' will now get a certfor the week instead of going sick for the day.


    Who gives them the certs? Private sector doctors.


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    #630
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Not strictly true...the 'wasters' will now get a certfor the week instead of going sick for the day.


    Who gives them the certs? Private sector doctors.

    No the wasters have expired all their 4 year period entitlements for certified leave. If they get a cert they still don't get paid or get half pay.


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    #631
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Not strictly true...the 'wasters' will now get a certfor the week instead of going sick for the day.


    Who gives them the certs? Private sector doctors.

    you know nothing about sick leave entitlements.

    Public sector sick leave statistics are skewed by the fact that they don't eliminate the salary of cancer and stroke victims after a period as short as three months or even one month which private sector organisations do. As a result, these long-term sick leave genuine cases skew the averages and the real story is why you wouldn't want to have a serious illness in the private sector.


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