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Dublin Marathon 2011 Novices Mentored Thread

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    #302
    POC123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭POC123


    I think she was with the group until about 15 miles then she dropped off a bit and we never saw her again...think that was about the same time you pushed on a bit ahead of us...could see your hat in the distance for a few miles then that and the 3:45 baloons were gone :(... kept with Mr 40th marathon man after that for a while and a few more of the 3:45 stragglers...most of us came in at around 3:52-ish!!!

    Kinda want to do Dingle (although I agree i have bitten off way more that I can chew this year), I'm from Kerry but living in Dubland and we were going to spend a few days down in Dingle....realise that there will be no records shattered but would like to a do a <4 anyway and do a comfortable-ish run....

    RayCun - I think you might that i am doing too much.
    Best time this year was a 26.2 training run in 3:33 and was in good shape after it...in about week 12 of the 16 week program so i think with my fitness level that this was my peak...

    I think it might be wise to dial back training and do a "get-me-around" plan for Dingle and then focus on DCM in oct...and then limit to 2 or 3 marathons a year at most (hope to keep up this running lark!!)
    I'll head over to the improver section
    thanks folks


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    #303
    Mr Slow
    Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    POC123 wrote: »
    I think she was with the group until about 15 miles then she dropped off a bit and we never saw her again...think that was about the same time you pushed on a bit ahead of us...could see your hat in the distance for a few miles then that and the 3:45 baloons were gone :(... kept with Mr 40th marathon man after that for a while and a few more of the 3:45 stragglers...most of us came in at around 3:52-ish!!!

    Kinda want to do Dingle (although I agree i have bitten off way more that I can chew this year), I'm from Kerry but living in Dubland and we were going to spend a few days down in Dingle....realise that there will be no records shattered but would like to a do a <4 anyway and do a comfortable-ish run....

    RayCun - I think you might that i am doing too much.
    Best time this year was a 26.2 training run in 3:33 and was in good shape after it...in about week 12 of the 16 week program so i think with my fitness level that this was my peak...

    I think it might be wise to dial back training and do a "get-me-around" plan for Dingle and then focus on DCM in oct...and then limit to 2 or 3 marathons a year at most (hope to keep up this running lark!!)
    I'll head over to the improver section
    thanks folks

    Keep an eye on this thread for LSR's, misery loves company ;)


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    #304
    AlwaysInjured
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭AlwaysInjured


    Hi Raycun

    I hope im not too late to join in this thread! I have been going back and forth thinking about a marathon for the last couple of years since I started running, and have decided to just do it, and get the monkey off my back.
    I am not a fast runner by any stretch of the imagination but I am determined, I train on my own and a pretty good self motivator.
    • Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
    • Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training?
    • How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant
    • What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
    • How many days a week can you train?
    • Why are you running this marathon?

    Cork Half Marathon 2011 - 2 hrs 10 mins
    Bay Run (Half) 2010 - 2 hrs 18 mins
    Dingle Half Marathon 2010 - 2 hrs 20 mins (minimal training went into that race!)

    I would occasionally take breaks on my runs, if its a hill run i would take recovery walk breaks, or if its over 8 miles i do take a walk break to take on water or gels.

    I would run about 3 times a week, 2 shorter mid week runs of 4 or 5 miles and a longer run at the weekend of 7 miles plus.
    I cross train about 3 times a week too, pilates, circuit training, spinning and cross trainer.

    I would love to break four hours in the marathon, but realisticallyi think 4.20 is a more achievable goal.

    I exercise usually 5-6 days a week, varying in intensity.

    I am running the marathon because it is at some point nearly every runners ambition, to prove I can do it for myself.

    I would love your feedback on the programme I am following below and if you think it is good or not. I have always followed plans in the past and this one struck me as being quite varied as it includes a bit of cross training which suits me.


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    #305
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Sure, not too late at all, glad to have you on the thread.
    Did you mean to post a plan, I don't see one...


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    #306
    AlwaysInjured
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭AlwaysInjured


    RayCun wrote: »
    Sure, not too late at all, glad to have you on the thread.
    Did you mean to post a plan, I don't see one...


    Sorry about that, still getting used to the forum!
    Here is the plan I am using, any opinions would be great.
    I have adde it as an attachment, i hope it goes through :D


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    #307
    Mr Slow
    Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    I would have three concerns with this plan, it's very low mileage,there's no growth in the midweek runs and it's a 3 day running week.


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    #308
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    mrslow wrote: »
    I would have three concerns with this plan, it's very low mileage,there's no growth in the midweek runs and it's a 3 day running week.

    To add a fourth concern, too high a percentage of the weekly mileage is contained in the long run - 2/3 of the peak week's mileage (20 miles out of 30) is the LSR and the other 2 runs are 5 easy/5 hills.


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    #309
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    +1 on both the above

    I don't understand the change in the Monday run distance - why are you switching between 4 and 5 miles in the early weeks, and dropping down to 3 in some later weeks? Why not just progress from 3 in the early weeks to 5 in the later weeks?
    And why not repeat Monday's run on Thursdays? An easy run there would be good for you.
    Alternating hills and tempo on Wednesday is fine, but the distances seem arbitrary. Perhaps you are increasing the difficulty through the programme, running the same distances but faster?
    The long runs look good up to week 13, but I don't know why you're dropping back to 10 and 12 in weeks 14 and 16. Shouldn't they be 14 and 16?


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    #310
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ger664


    AlwaysInjured

    Your Wednesday workout alternates hills and tempo every second week. It is better to do the hill work only during the endurance mileage building phase at the start, then do the tempo work every week from week 12 to week 18.

    You have no medium mid week run here. I would prefer a aerobic run starting at 4-6 miles and building up to 8-10 miles for the second half of the plan of a Tuesday. If you are committed to the XT on that day maybe make this session between 60-90 mins with a moderate intensity.

    If you are going to XT the day before the Long run make it short and easy. A very easy run of 2-4 miles can be better then rest on the Friday to loosen out tired/sore limbs and prepare you for the long run.


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    #311
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    +1 to all the above. the plan is simply too low Mileage. Even HH Novice 1 has a peak mileage of 40 and most consider that to be the easiest marathon Plan out there.

    Your peak mileage is only 30mpw which is little more than the marathon distance itself. That'll just not cut it if you intend to run a good marathon.


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    #312
    AlwaysInjured
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭AlwaysInjured


    RayCun wrote: »
    +1 on both the above

    I don't understand the change in the Monday run distance - why are you switching between 4 and 5 miles in the early weeks, and dropping down to 3 in some later weeks? Why not just progress from 3 in the early weeks to 5 in the later weeks?
    And why not repeat Monday's run on Thursdays? An easy run there would be good for you.
    Alternating hills and tempo on Wednesday is fine, but the distances seem arbitrary. Perhaps you are increasing the difficulty through the programme, running the same distances but faster?
    The long runs look good up to week 13, but I don't know why you're dropping back to 10 and 12 in weeks 14 and 16. Shouldn't they be 14 and 16?


    Thanks for the feedback guys, im still in the early days of the plan so am happy to switch to a different one.
    Any plans I have followed in the past have been based in 3 days running with cross training in between, as I have dodgy knees i find it hard on them to run 2 days consecutively. But i am definitely open to alternative plans with no more than 4 days running. Maybe Hal Higdon's Novice 1 plan but with some adaptations, put a one day X Train between the 3 days running, and put use these runs as hills and tempo with an easy in between maybe?


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    #313
    Mr Slow
    Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    AlwaysInjured wrote: »
    Thanks for the feedback guys, im still in the early days of the plan so am happy to switch to a different one.
    Any plans I have followed in the past have been based in 3 days running with cross training in between, as I have dodgy knees i find it hard on them to run 2 days consecutively. But i am definitely open to alternative plans with no more than 4 days running. Maybe Hal Higdon's Novice 1 plan but with some adaptations, put a one day X Train between the 3 days running, and put use these runs as hills and tempo with an easy in between maybe?

    If you can't run two consecutive days I'd be very concerned about running DCM. I don't want to p1ss on your parade but running consecutive days is a key element to any of the tried and tested plans.


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    #314
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    The standard Higdon plan is
    Mon - rest
    Tues/Wed/Thurs - run
    Fri - rest
    Sat - Long run
    Sun - XT

    you could change it slightly, to
    Mon - run
    Tues - rest/XT
    Wed/Thurs - run
    Fri - rest
    Sat - Long run
    Sun - XT

    So you still have four days running, but only two consecutive days.


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    #315
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    AlwaysInjured wrote: »
    Thanks for the feedback guys, im still in the early days of the plan so am happy to switch to a different one.
    Any plans I have followed in the past have been based in 3 days running with cross training in between, as I have dodgy knees i find it hard on them to run 2 days consecutively. But i am definitely open to alternative plans with no more than 4 days running. Maybe Hal Higdon's Novice 1 plan but with some adaptations, put a one day X Train between the 3 days running, and put use these runs as hills and tempo with an easy in between maybe?

    In order to do your long runs successfully your midweek runs also have to increase as the weeks go on. If you insist on only doing 3 runs per week, keep one of the midweek runs in the 5-7 mile range (maybe use it as a MP run or similar) and build the other one up to about 10-12 miles at peak. Having midweek 'semi-long runs' will make the LSR's less daunting and less of a stretch for your body.

    It really would be advantageous for you to try to do 5 runs a week though. It is just a matter of adding in recovery runs on 2 of your rest or XT days. I'm talking simply about doing 3-4 milers at a very slow pace (1-2 minutes/mile slower than MP). These will have the effect of increasing your mileage while simultaneously helping your body recover from the tougher workouts.


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    #316
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Right lads I'm going DCM in Oct and I did Cork two weeks back, aimed for 4hours but fell off at 28km mark and ran/walked after that to finish at the 4hours 34min mark sadly.

    The biggest problem with Cork for me was I missed out on a lot of miles before hand due to various reasons so I just didn't get the miles in per week that I needed.

    I felt fine up until the 28km mark and had kept with the pacers no bother at all but things went arse ways after it and then HR started going nuts later on when I tried to run......Garmin link ---> http://connect.garmin.com/activity/90626691

    So I've picked the following plan which starts at the end of this month, I'm determinant to be comfortable under the 4hour mark for DCM.

    Google Docs Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rYfGtHaAJ9tIWsRoAIXDR0anXrW3ocGNDQVeRW9AorY/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CMiHhY8F

    Any thoughts?

    You'll notice there's a week in Sept with a load of H's, I'll likely be out of the country for this entire week so keeping to training is out the window but I will likely fit in one or two runs just to say I ran in the country in question :pac:


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    #317
    AlwaysInjured
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭AlwaysInjured


    menoscemo wrote: »
    In order to do your long runs successfully your midweek runs also have to increase as the weeks go on. If you insist on only doing 3 runs per week, keep one of the midweek runs in the 5-7 mile range (maybe use it as a MP run or similar) and build the other one up to about 10-12 miles at peak. Having midweek 'semi-long runs' will make the LSR's less daunting and less of a stretch for your body.

    It really would be advantageous for you to try to do 5 runs a week though. It is just a matter of adding in recovery runs on 2 of your rest or XT days. I'm talking simply about doing 3-4 milers at a very slow pace (1-2 minutes/mile slower than MP). These will have the effect of increasing your mileage while simultaneously helping your body recover from the tougher workouts.

    Great advise guys, thanks for everyone for being so helpful. I will add in a fourth day of running, and maybe a fifth at a very slow pace on one of my X training days. The more i look at the Hal Higdon plan the more i am liking it, with the suggested cross train day in between Tuesday and Wednesday. My main aim is to get over the line in a not too embarrassing time and without injury. I had a bad case of IT band syndrome last year and badly torn ankle ligaments a few months later and will do anything to avoid that, nothing worse than being sidelined with injury for 6-8 weeks.


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    #318
    AlwaysInjured
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭AlwaysInjured


    ger664 wrote: »
    AlwaysInjured

    Your Wednesday workout alternates hills and tempo every second week. It is better to do the hill work only during the endurance mileage building phase at the start, then do the tempo work every week from week 12 to week 18.

    You have no medium mid week run here. I would prefer a aerobic run starting at 4-6 miles and building up to 8-10 miles for the second half of the plan of a Tuesday. If you are committed to the XT on that day maybe make this session between 60-90 mins with a moderate intensity.

    If you are going to XT the day before the Long run make it short and easy. A very easy run of 2-4 miles can be better then rest on the Friday to loosen out tired/sore limbs and prepare you for the long run.

    Sound advise, thanks for all the info, hope i remember it all!!


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    #319
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Cabaal wrote: »
    So I've picked the following plan which starts at the end of this month, I'm determinant to be comfortable under the 4hour mark for DCM.

    Google Docs Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rYfGtHaAJ9tIWsRoAIXDR0anXrW3ocGNDQVeRW9AorY/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CMiHhY8F

    Any thoughts?

    The weekends on that schedule look very tough - marathon pace runs Saturday and long runs Sunday. Why not do the pace runs midweek?


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    #320
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    RayCun wrote: »
    The weekends on that schedule look very tough - marathon pace runs Saturday and long runs Sunday. Why not do the pace runs midweek?

    I was starting to think that myself alight, that and the ability to actually fit in a run on Sat AND Sun every weekend with all the things in real life going on

    As I want to see the pace days increase this would leave me with Wednesday as the day of choice I guess and perhaps a mix of cross or rest on Sat (realistically) and fit in what I can fit in when the day comes.

    Perhaps have rest on Monday (after the long run) instead of Friday and rest/cross mix on Saturday


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    #321
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    It also depends on how much running you're doing now. There's nothing wrong with having an easy run on Saturday before a long run on Sunday, but 10 miles Saturday followed by 20 Sunday might be too much for you, even at an easy pace.


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    #322
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    RayCun wrote: »
    It also depends on how much running you're doing now. There's nothing wrong with having an easy run on Saturday before a long run on Sunday, but 10 miles Saturday followed by 20 Sunday might be too much for you, even at an easy pace.

    Right some amendments made to it, previously I would have been averaging around 30-40km a week I suppose. Though somewhat on and off which was my problem

    By taking Saturday out of the plan as a pace run I've posted that makes it a min of 33km and a max of 64km during the 18 week period.


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    #323
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Cool, looks better now.
    Your first week back after holidays looks a bit tough, you might want to reduce the distance for your pace run, but you can wait and see how you feel that week.


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    #324
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ger664


    Cabaal

    Your plan is to do a sub 4 hour, what are your most recent 5K,10K and half marathon race times ?

    How many days a week running did you do before Cork ?


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    #325
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ger664 wrote: »
    Cabaal

    Your plan is to do a sub 4 hour, what are your most recent 5K,10K and half marathon race times ?

    How many days a week running did you do before Cork ?

    Don't have any race times for 5k or 10k, but they come in around 24min and 52min during normal every day running.

    Last half marathon was Waterford A/C Half Marathon – 1:51:25 on the 15/01/2011..

    As for the 4hour, for Cork I did manage to stay with menoscemo and the other 4hour pacers without feeling any bit iffy until the 27km mark and it was at the 28km mark I had to stop, it was after that when things went pear shaped sadly.

    As for days a week running, well that was the problem it was on and off. Some weeks I was able to manage 5 and others one or none due to so much stuff going on.


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    #326
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ger664


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Don't have any race times for 5k or 10k, but they come in around 24min and 52min during normal every day running.

    Last half marathon was Waterford A/C Half Marathon – 1:51:25 on the 15/01/2011..

    As for the 4hour, for Cork I did manage to stay with menoscemo and the other 4hour pacers without feeling any bit iffy until the 27km mark and it was at the 28km mark I had to stop, it was after that when things went pear shaped sadly.

    As for days a week running, well that was the problem it was on and off. Some weeks I was able to manage 5 and others one or none due to so much stuff going on.


    You have the pace for a sub 4 so its just a matter of getting miles into your legs. Doing the LSR on a hilly route for the first six weeks will really help this. Try not to miss the Long runs.

    I would not do pace runs up to week 12 but instead add a mile or 2 to them and do them as medium long runs until you go on holidays.

    As for not running on holidays, there is nothing better then doing an early morning 8 miler along a beach and going for a dip in the sea after it.


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    #327
    Joeyde
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭Joeyde


    Not sure if we are supposed to log our progress etc here or start our own log but seems like it may be a good motivator to keep one anyways.


    Done the first 3 days of the sub 45min 10km plan so far and its going well. I think it is suited to me nicely. Tired legs today and welcoming the rest day tomorrow! Definitely feel like I'm working harder in training now, great to have a goal. Have a new Garmin 405 which is great to train with when my training buddy cant make it (he is out with a bruised foot..already!)

    Did the 10km pace development today and my pace run was a little slower than it should be but on a relatively hilly course. Plan was 4x2kms at 4.25/km, I averaged at about 4:40/km give or take, so not bad and I guess that's what the plan is for... improvement.

    Few niggles in the knees etc on the first day, but felt strong today.

    Ive also planned a 10km race 3 weeks into this plan (half way) and hopefully another at the end, haven't looked yet. Then head into the marathon training plan and do the race series through out that.


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    #328
    PDCAT
    Registered Users Posts: 1,703 ✭✭✭PDCAT


    Hi Folks

    My wife and i are both going to commence the HH Novice 1 plan on June 27th.
    Question i have is whilst i'm looking to run sub 4, my wife is a bit slower.
    When i put our times into Mcmillian calculator - the times for recovery & LSR's runs are very different for the two of us.
    We would like to run these run's together.

    For example my LSR's are to be run between 9.30 - 10.15
    My Wife's LSR's are 10.45 - 11.15.
    Is it ok for me to run my LSR's and Recovery run's slower than recommended so i can run with herself.

    What do people think.


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    #329
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    PDCAT wrote: »
    Hi Folks

    My wife and i are both going to commence the HH Novice 1 plan on June 27th.
    Question i have is whilst i'm looking to run sub 4, my wife is a bit slower.
    When i put our times into Mcmillian calculator - the times for recovery & LSR's runs are very different for the two of us.
    We would like to run these run's together.

    For example my LSR's are to be run between 9.30 - 10.15
    My Wife's LSR's are 10.45 - 11.15.
    Is it ok for me to run my LSR's and Recovery run's slower than recommended so i can run with herself.

    What do people think.


    No harm doing the LSR's and recoveries a little slower than planned. Recoveries especially as they are just designed to help the legs recover and a re normally defined by a maximum pace (no minimum).

    I recently ran 3'24 in Barcelona (7'44 av pace) and did a lot of my LSR's at almost 10 min/mile pace (group runs).


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    #330
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ger664


    PDCAT

    I agree with monoscemo here. Just be careful that herself does not end up going to quick and you both stick to slower LSR/Recovery paces.


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    #331
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    PDCAT wrote: »
    Hi Folks

    My wife and i are both going to commence the HH Novice 1 plan on June 27th.
    Question i have is whilst i'm looking to run sub 4, my wife is a bit slower.
    When i put our times into Mcmillian calculator - the times for recovery & LSR's runs are very different for the two of us.
    We would like to run these run's together.

    Are you going to be doing all your runs together? I'd disagree with the others a bit, in that if all of your running is two mninutes slower than goal pace, I think you'll have trouble maintaining the faster pace on the day.


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