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RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,339 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    fat-tony wrote: »
    Wow... this thread is about to go DEFCON 1 (or 5) - whichever is the bad one!

    Hell of a first post though:)

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭Apogee


    As it's inevitable that a moderator will be along shortly, can this thread please not be locked?

    There is a lot of useful information contained in the previous posts. Perhaps the 'secret agenda' stuff could be moved to a different thread?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 165 ✭✭dmm1000


    @semper fidelis - I think you have no real justification for discrediting other very experienced, knowledgeable and helpful posters
    If you do know who the "Saorsat" contract will or will not go to - then I look forward to being educated by your technical knowledge and future posts on all of these matters -

    Only time will tell if your first post was :-

    1. the emergence of the latest technical "guru" to hit these forums - OR

    2. simply a (sometimes comedic) bolt out of the blue designed to have a
    swipe at another member and that we'll seldom hear from you again

    my hunch is option 2 :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I didn't boast about my successful ventures. Most R&D startups and projects come to nothing. About 75% of them or more.

    Most new food places and Clothes shops fail within 2 years.
    None of that is relevant to technical competence. Most places that "fail" can't be saved by the employees.

    I think about 20mins into Oireachtas Presentation I realised that they must be talking about ka-Sat. The 70Gbps Internet beast. It's scheme of polarisation & sub-band reuse means that dish size is irrelevant to London reception of Irish Spot. Even if Calais French spot is much weaker. All the spots are from the same satellite. Spots of the same Polarity and band likely come from the same dish (there are four) via separate offset feeds.

    http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/ka-sat-countdown#comment-1004358

    "Avanti's Hylas 1" versus "Viasat/Eutelsat Ka-Sat."

    Hylas 1. Largely ESA funded it's an experimental platform. It's Avanti's 1st space craft and sensibly they have partnered with Hughes to sell the Broadband capacity. It will also be used on Ku for TV and Teleconferencing. Avanti is also a Media Company.
    The Ka will be used to provide Internet and Military communications

    Avanti and Three Ireland did agree to use it for the NBS. Eamon Ryan has just announced the completion of the NBS. Hylas1 has not entered serivce yet. Before Tender was even awarded for NBS I spoke with Avanti people. I and others in the Industry thought that the Falcon 9 was a very high risk and that in any case the Hylas1 would not enter service in Time.

    ESA also got cold feet and Falcon 9 was behind schedule so extra money was found to fund Ariane or Soyuz launch. I'm pleased the launch is a success and hope the Hylas 1 can enter service in January.
    The Hylas1 will also be a "Test Bed" for Astrium

    The technology test-bed comprises a dedicated secure laboratory facility equipped with RF, modem and encryption and routing equipment which will enable government and military customers to work in close collaboration with Astrium Services' engineers in testing and refining future Military Ka-band system requirements.

    System tests on the satellite will cover military use of Ka-band including tactical and comms on the move (CoTM) terminals in field locations. It will be based in Stevenage in UK and use proven in-house system and terminal capabilities supplied by Astrium Secure Satcom Systems

    Astrium Services CEO Eric Beranger said: "As the world's first provider of military grade secure satellite communications to government customers we are continually looking at how to improve our services and solutions. Our goal with the technology test-bed and the capacity lease on Hylas 1 is to test and validate potential future service opportunities to give our existing and future customers an edge over the competition.

    There are two Ka beams over British Isles, two over Spain and Portugal and four over the east of Europe, including Italy.
    Total of EIGHT ka wide beams
    The pair of ka beams over Ireland and UK are too wide for RTE NL use.

    The Ka-sat is based on technology tested on Hotbird 6 (it has 4 x Ka Spots) and in commercial service on two satellites providing the "Wildblue" 60+ ka spot service.
    It's not a prototype or test bed. It's a partnership of Viasat and Eutelsat. Both very large experienced players.

    It has over 80 Ka-Spots by using 20+ offset feeds on four large antenna. It has extremely large Solar panels

    Space and weight is saved by having no Ku feeds or equipment.
    A Ku Feed is about 3/4" (about 18mm) and ka Feed about 1/2" (about 11mm) I think.

    Ka-Sat signals are mostly DOCSIS ACM and thus downlink spots are normally depending on the rain fade to set power.

    The actual size of the spots may be twice the size indicated. The limit is the degradation of signal due to another the same from a different spot. The illustrated outlines are where the interfering signal is so low as to give a Eb/No not much worse than normal. At mid point between any pair identical spots the signal is equally from two different spots. Some point between the mid point and the illustrated outline the Eb/No is too poor due to the unwanted spot.

    There is no special "jacking up of power". For equal spot spacing the powers all have to be approximately the same. The spots have to be small enough (big enough dish on satellite) that at full power (heavy rain) the next spot on same polarisation and frequency is not experiencing too much interference. Dish size on the ground is no help.

    The point is that the French and Irish Spots are same band and same polarity and FROM THE SAME PLACE IN THE SKY. Even if the French spot was 1/2 the power of the Irish one, if you put a big dish in London and point it at the satellite @9E, the French spot is nearer so will be MUCH stronger than the Irish one

    120204.png
    The French spot could even be 1/3rd of Irish spot power and no way in London can you get a clean signal. The bigger your dish the more French spot you get. It's from the SAME place in the sky!

    With a big enough dish you can separate 28.2 & 28.5. You can only separate the French and Irish spots by moving close enough to one place or the other. Because they are from the same satellite!

    The red line I have drawn is an estimated point where no matter how big a dish you have, even 1.8 or 3.6m, you are picking up enough French signal, even if it's slightly lower power on same frequency and polarity that the Eb/No is far too low for Irish Reception. The two spots come from the same spacecraft.


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69244770&postcount=830
    http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/hylas-launch
    http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1399642

    http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/ka-sat-countdown
    http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1393535
    http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1298375

    There has been much discussion as to why it's not economically feasible for Irish TV to be on a wider Beam. In fact RTE NL do not really seem to regard Saorsat as a satellite service in the normal sense at all. It's for the 2% (RTE figure) to 5% (or maybe 10% if they cut back on the 52 sites?) approx that don't get DTT. So they can build 52 DTT sites instead of 90, 140, 170 or 188 (there are 170+ analogue sites today).

    I wonder had "semper fidelis" any connection to "Real Digital TV"?

    http://www.techtir.ie/blog/loguey/is-saorsat-innovation-or-blocking
    http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1313867

    So on Ka Band the "Ka-Sat" single function satellite is established tested technology with x10 capacity at least of the "Hylas1" which is a multipurpose satellite with Testing and Military applications as well as Ku band. It's only a "toy" in the context of Ka-Sat's 70Gbps capacity, the most powerful satellite ever. Though not yet launched. Obviously Hylas1 is a very advanced Satellite and it brings Avanti to a whole new level in the Space game.


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭tjspock


    mother of god what a dinger of a first post:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,818 ✭✭✭Minstrel27


    Hi. This is my first time to post here so please bear with me if I am doing it wrong. I am retired home from the US these past eighteen months. Although I was born and bred in Connemara I have spent most of my life in the States where I spent twenty years in the telecoms business the last ten being on satellite broadband/tv. I have not posted here before but I have been viewing all the posts on satellite stuff over the past twelve months as, being retired I need an interest to stop my brain from stagnating.
    The first thing that I find amazing about the forums here in Ireland is that quite a number of posters have their own commercial agendas which they are blatantly pushing. This would never be allowed in the forums in the States – the Moderators would intervene immediately. I have not seen any Moderator intervention here in Ireland at all.
    One guy runs a satellite shop and, as far as I can see he uses these forums as a marketing base for his products. Another guy has formed an installers association and is looking for members ( I hope that he can install better than he can spell ! ). His message is that the ordinary Joe who wants to buy a system should not deal with anybody unless they are a member of his association ie. more covert marketing.
    At least these guys are upfront about it and state their case openly.
    Then there are other guys who seem to have a covert marketing agenda which they push constantly on these forums. As I said before they would never get away with this in the States but I suppose good luck to them if they can do it here.
    As an example I would refer to a guy called Watty who seems to be the self styled Guru of these forums and seems to have an opinion on absolutely everything and these opinions seem to be accepted as Gospel truth by most of the people who frequent these forums.
    He may know the technical ins and outs of wireless but he sure as hell don’t know jack**** about satellite technology particularly KA band spot beam technology. As somebody who has worked at the cutting edge of this technology for the past four years in the States I like to think that I know what I am talking about.
    According to one of his recent posts Watty is a failed entrepreneur. According to himself he set up three enterprises which failed and he was involved in three others which also failed. In other words he struck out six times out of six ! On the basis that this guy seems to average about 3000 posts per year I don’t wonder at his businesses failing – he is spending too much time on theses forums and not enough time running his business ! How can a six times failed businessman hold forth and give advice to the rank and file ?
    It would appear that he is on some sort of a retainer to push certain products. During the past twelve months (perhaps longer but I can only speak for the time I have been looking at these posts ) he seems to have been pushing Digiweb very forcefully once anybody suggested getting satellite broadband installed. As far as I can remember some months ago another poster pulled him up on this very question as to how much he was being paid for pushing Digiweb products - does he work for Digiweb ? (by the way I don’t know who Digiweb are, whether they are good or bad - I only know that they seem to be getting loads of free publicity on these forums courtesy of this guy Watty! ).
    Then along came SaorSat and Watty really went to town.
    I have,nt been back in the country long enough to know who this guy Hayes is in the RTE mob. Is he one of the foot soldiers delivering his masters message or is he the Don ? If he is the Don then he must think that he is politically untouchable . Only someone with a lot of clout puts the boot into a Select Senate Committee (or whatever it is called over here) by telling them that the reason for the cock up resulting in the non provision of commercial DTT was themselves not allowing RTE to do it 5 years ago in the manner that RTE had requested. I am sure that politicians over here are no different than in the USA. They all have long memories and little black books and I would say that because of this Mr Hayes’ will be kinda stopped at where he is in the promotion ladder. Hayes on behalf of RTE came clean and said that they could not fulfil the remit as placed on them by the 2009 Broadcasting Act of bringing DTT to all the population in Ireland and that they were going to miss this target by about 2% of dwellings. When I said that he came clean this was not entirely true. In fact this is one of the areas in which I agree with Mr Watty. Looking at the network presently planned by RTE I would suggest that they are going to miss the target by about 15%.
    Hayes conceded that the last 2% was going to have to be served by a new type of free to air satellite system courtesy of a new KA Band satellite system with a spot beam directly over Ireland thus satisfying the rights holders of all the imported content on the basis that it would serve Ireland alone and would not extend into any other geographic region. This was an enormous load of horse**** but it seems that nobody on the Select Committee had the technical nous to challenge this ridiculous statement. Watty however was in like a flash with the statement that Hayes was talking horse**** and that all you would need in order to get reception in the UK was a bigger dish. Once again I agreed with Watty.
    But then a strange thing happened. Like St Paul on the road to Damascus Watty was converted ! Not alone was he converted to the Hayes brand of technological mumbo jumbo but he now obviously had a new patron – Eutelsat.
    Last week somebody posted that the Avanti KA Band satellite had a successful launch. Quick as a flash Watty was in with the comment that “the Avanti bird was a toy compared to KA Sat “. How does he know ? Has he seen both satellites ? As far as I can see from technical postings on other sites KA Sat weighs 6 tons. The Avanti bird weighs 3 tons. Not exactly a “toy” in comparison. Having cost these guys in the order of $200,000,000 to get it up there it is not toy money neither. Dont forget big is not always beautiful and definitely not always best.
    He is pushing Eutelsat so hard that one must assume that his deal with Digiweb is off and that a new deal has been struck with Eutelsat – or maybe he is good enough to have both deals going at the same time ! Nonetheless like St Paul he has seen the light. He has now come up with diagrams and pictures etc. to show that the beam over Ireland will in fact not go any further than Ireland. Obviously Eutelsat has provided him with the latest gem of information to the effect that the beam over Calais which is on the same frequency as the beam over Ireland will have it’s power turned up to the full so that it will reach the west coast of the UK and will block any transmission from the Irish beam reaching the shores of England. What a load of bolloney !
    Despite the fact that Mr Hayes did not mention who the proposed KA Band provider was going to be Mr Watty categorically insisted that it was going to be the Eutelsat bird called KA Sat and it would operate at an orbital position of 9 degrees east.
    As someone who has actually worked on the technology being used by Eutelsat (and not somebody who has learned about it from Wikipedia) I can state categorically that Watty’s/Eutelsat’s suggestions are pure and utter horse manure. Before I show how much methane is being created here I am still curious as to how Watty knows that it is Eutelsat who are in the frame here – have they told him ? Certainly this guy Hayes has not said who it is so why is Watty so adamant that it is Eutelsat ?
    Avanti are also in the KA Band business. My ancestors are part Italian and Avanti in Italian means “enter” or “come in” - what a stupid name to have for a telecommunications company ! Nonetheless they should be considered front runners as their KA Band spot beam satellite is , already in orbit. It is called Hylas 1 (if Avanti is a stupid name for a telco. who came up with this gem for the name of the satellite ? What does it mean ?) Anyway their bird is up and the Eutelsat bird still has to go up and on the basis that Eutelsat lost their last bird I guess they are sweating bricks at the moment when you take into account that instead of using the state of the art launch facilities at ArianSpace they are using the essentially out of date facilities of Soyuz. Obviously they feel that the Russian buying public need to be pandered to. By the same token I believe that their next launch is from China which will really give them lots of headaches bearing in mind the United States’ embargo on China. The bricks being passed by Eutelsat execs. must have trebled in size following last weekend’s debacle in Baikonur.
    Who represents Avanti in Ireland ? Why are’nt they kicking Watty’s ass and taking him to task over his “know it all” statements ? Then again maybe they are cleverer than anybody and they are the people who are dealing with RTE and they are sitting back smugly and saying nothing ?
    Now to get back to Watty’s “theories”. Wild Blue, whose technology Eutelsat are using have spot beams covering the USA. Each beam is about 300 miles in diameter. Beam sizes can be set larger but this has to be decided at design stage (about two years before launch) and cannot be changed thereafter. Looking at the “smarties” coloured map of the proposed KA Sat beams over Europe , Eutelsat beams are about 300 miles in diameter also.
    One of these beams covers the island of Ireland so straightaway RTE have problems with rights holders as, whether we like it or not, the Northern part of this island is designated as being part of the United Kingdom and with about 1.5 million people there, this would increase the amount that RTE pays for its imported shows by about 40%. This is based on the assumption that when RTE negotiated for the rights to these shows they probably used population figures that were about twenty years old and definitely only applied to the Republic. Coupled with that is the fact that, utilising a 2’ 0” dish the present “Irish” beam covers quite a lot of the west coast of the UK. Therefore it is not rocket science to work out that a person on the outskirts of London with a 3’ 0” dish will receive all the Irish broadcasts. Having worked in the States and seen how these guys operate close up I do not think that these rights holders will be remotely interested in the “Peace Process” as we call it and hands across the border to the extent that they will allow RTE to serve another 40% of population for free !
    Watty suggests that the beam over Calais is on the same frequency as the beam over Ireland and that the guys in Eutelsat are going to throw a switch and increase the power to this beam to such an extent that they can reach over to the west coast of the UK and thus block out any transmission from the Irish beam accessing the island of Great Britain. Is this guy on magic mushrooms or what ??? In the first instance the Irish beam is going to be on maximum power at almost all times. In case you guys have forgotten when it rains in Ireland it damn well rains and this occurs for quite a large portion of the year so it is maximum settings on the Irish beam for at least 75% of the time. This results in the beam access reaching as far as middle England without any increase in dish size. By increasing the dish size this would mean that the whole of England and Wales and almost all of Scotland would be covered. But wait ! – what about Watty’s theory about turning up the power on the French beam ?? Let us see this for what it is – utter and absolute bolloney for the following reasons. The power addition is limited to about 40% so an increase of power on the French beam would just about reach London no more and if by some miracle it managed to drive further it would meet the equally upsurged Irish beam somewhere in middle England.
    If, for a moment we go back into fantasy land with Mr Watty’s theory and assume that Eutelsat could wave a magic wand and power up the French beam to such an extent that it could go as far as the Island of Anglesey and stop the Irish beam from reaching what the Brits euphemistically call “the mainland” we must also look at where else it would go. Watty is suggesting to us that Eutelsat can create a beam which is almost 1,000 miles in diameter. From personal experience I know that this is horse’s ass territory but as we are approaching Christmas let us assume that Santa Clause has weaved his magic and they can create a 1,000 mile diameter beam which can crush the Irish beam – what happens to the other side of this gigantic beam ? Those of you who would not consider yourselves “techies” but who scraped maths in your Leaving pay attention ! In order to reach the British west coast from northern France this enormous beam will also completely cover France, Belgium, Holland, Switzerland, a goodly part of Germany, Northern Spain, Northern Italy and other places that my geography is not good enough to name ! But there’s more !
    The beam that covers Ireland is a ****ty yellowy green colour indicating a particular frequency. This colour is repeated in the beam over northern Spain and also in the beam over northern Italy as well as the above mentioned beam over northern France. In my opinion the Basques will be pretty pissed off to find that their access to this great new technology has been knackered due to the fact that RTE want to serve 2% of us culchies in the west of Ireland and Eutelsat have jacked up the power in the French beam in order to do so and have thereby cut them off. More importantly I think is the beam over Turin which is the home town of Eutelsat . It is also going to be rendered ineffective by this powerful French beam so that the local Italians (many of whom probably work with Eutelsat) are not going to reap the benefits of this new technology either for the same reason. Tsk. Tsk. O the fairy tales of Ireland.
    The laws of physics are such that a circular beam when enlarged by whatever means possible will expand in equal proportions in all directions simultaneously.
    Lets face it – Watty’s theory is a load of crud pure and simple.
    I forget to state – I don’t work for Avanti or for any telco. in Ireland. Having been surrounded by loudmouths in the States for more years than I care to remember I don’t want to see that emerging here in Ireland and I don’t want to see a small company getting buried by the resources of a large conglomerate. I have seen too much of that in the States.
    As I said before – where are the guys from Avanti ? Why are you not in there fighting your corner ? Or is the fight over already and we don’t know about it ??
    I have just looked back on the size of this post – it shows what you can do when you have plenty of time on your hands ! Sorry about that guys.

    Wow, just wow.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    It's true what they say............. everything is bigger over there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,339 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    mikom wrote: »
    It's true what they say............. everything is bigger over there.

    Its true for the font size on this occasion.

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,747 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Hi. This is my first time to post here so please bear with me if I am doing it wrong. I am retired home from the US these past eighteen months. Although I was born and bred in Connemara I have spent most of my life in the States where I spent twenty years in the telecoms business the last ten being on satellite broadband/tv. I have not posted here before but I have been viewing all the posts on satellite stuff over the past twelve months as, being retired I need an interest to stop my brain from stagnating.
    The first thing that I find amazing about the forums here in Ireland is that quite a number of posters have their own commercial agendas which they are blatantly pushing. This would never be allowed in the forums in the States – the Moderators would intervene immediately. I have not seen any Moderator intervention here in Ireland at all.
    One guy runs a satellite shop and, as far as I can see he uses these forums as a marketing base for his products. Another guy has formed an installers association and is looking for members ( I hope that he can install better than he can spell ! ). His message is that the ordinary Joe who wants to buy a system should not deal with anybody unless they are a member of his association ie. more covert marketing.
    At least these guys are upfront about it and state their case openly.
    Then there are other guys who seem to have a covert marketing agenda which they push constantly on these forums. As I said before they would never get away with this in the States but I suppose good luck to them if they can do it here.
    As an example I would refer to a guy called Watty who seems to be the self styled Guru of these forums and seems to have an opinion on absolutely everything and these opinions seem to be accepted as Gospel truth by most of the people who frequent these forums.
    He may know the technical ins and outs of wireless but he sure as hell don’t know jack**** about satellite technology particularly KA band spot beam technology. As somebody who has worked at the cutting edge of this technology for the past four years in the States I like to think that I know what I am talking about.
    According to one of his recent posts Watty is a failed entrepreneur. According to himself he set up three enterprises which failed and he was involved in three others which also failed. In other words he struck out six times out of six ! On the basis that this guy seems to average about 3000 posts per year I don’t wonder at his businesses failing – he is spending too much time on theses forums and not enough time running his business ! How can a six times failed businessman hold forth and give advice to the rank and file ?
    It would appear that he is on some sort of a retainer to push certain products. During the past twelve months (perhaps longer but I can only speak for the time I have been looking at these posts ) he seems to have been pushing Digiweb very forcefully once anybody suggested getting satellite broadband installed. As far as I can remember some months ago another poster pulled him up on this very question as to how much he was being paid for pushing Digiweb products - does he work for Digiweb ? (by the way I don’t know who Digiweb are, whether they are good or bad - I only know that they seem to be getting loads of free publicity on these forums courtesy of this guy Watty! ).
    Then along came SaorSat and Watty really went to town.
    I have,nt been back in the country long enough to know who this guy Hayes is in the RTE mob. Is he one of the foot soldiers delivering his masters message or is he the Don ? If he is the Don then he must think that he is politically untouchable . Only someone with a lot of clout puts the boot into a Select Senate Committee (or whatever it is called over here) by telling them that the reason for the cock up resulting in the non provision of commercial DTT was themselves not allowing RTE to do it 5 years ago in the manner that RTE had requested. I am sure that politicians over here are no different than in the USA. They all have long memories and little black books and I would say that because of this Mr Hayes’ will be kinda stopped at where he is in the promotion ladder. Hayes on behalf of RTE came clean and said that they could not fulfil the remit as placed on them by the 2009 Broadcasting Act of bringing DTT to all the population in Ireland and that they were going to miss this target by about 2% of dwellings. When I said that he came clean this was not entirely true. In fact this is one of the areas in which I agree with Mr Watty. Looking at the network presently planned by RTE I would suggest that they are going to miss the target by about 15%.
    Hayes conceded that the last 2% was going to have to be served by a new type of free to air satellite system courtesy of a new KA Band satellite system with a spot beam directly over Ireland thus satisfying the rights holders of all the imported content on the basis that it would serve Ireland alone and would not extend into any other geographic region. This was an enormous load of horse**** but it seems that nobody on the Select Committee had the technical nous to challenge this ridiculous statement. Watty however was in like a flash with the statement that Hayes was talking horse**** and that all you would need in order to get reception in the UK was a bigger dish. Once again I agreed with Watty.
    But then a strange thing happened. Like St Paul on the road to Damascus Watty was converted ! Not alone was he converted to the Hayes brand of technological mumbo jumbo but he now obviously had a new patron – Eutelsat.
    Last week somebody posted that the Avanti KA Band satellite had a successful launch. Quick as a flash Watty was in with the comment that “the Avanti bird was a toy compared to KA Sat “. How does he know ? Has he seen both satellites ? As far as I can see from technical postings on other sites KA Sat weighs 6 tons. The Avanti bird weighs 3 tons. Not exactly a “toy” in comparison. Having cost these guys in the order of $200,000,000 to get it up there it is not toy money neither. Dont forget big is not always beautiful and definitely not always best.
    He is pushing Eutelsat so hard that one must assume that his deal with Digiweb is off and that a new deal has been struck with Eutelsat – or maybe he is good enough to have both deals going at the same time ! Nonetheless like St Paul he has seen the light. He has now come up with diagrams and pictures etc. to show that the beam over Ireland will in fact not go any further than Ireland. Obviously Eutelsat has provided him with the latest gem of information to the effect that the beam over Calais which is on the same frequency as the beam over Ireland will have it’s power turned up to the full so that it will reach the west coast of the UK and will block any transmission from the Irish beam reaching the shores of England. What a load of bolloney !
    Despite the fact that Mr Hayes did not mention who the proposed KA Band provider was going to be Mr Watty categorically insisted that it was going to be the Eutelsat bird called KA Sat and it would operate at an orbital position of 9 degrees east.
    As someone who has actually worked on the technology being used by Eutelsat (and not somebody who has learned about it from Wikipedia) I can state categorically that Watty’s/Eutelsat’s suggestions are pure and utter horse manure. Before I show how much methane is being created here I am still curious as to how Watty knows that it is Eutelsat who are in the frame here – have they told him ? Certainly this guy Hayes has not said who it is so why is Watty so adamant that it is Eutelsat ?
    Avanti are also in the KA Band business. My ancestors are part Italian and Avanti in Italian means “enter” or “come in” - what a stupid name to have for a telecommunications company ! Nonetheless they should be considered front runners as their KA Band spot beam satellite is , already in orbit. It is called Hylas 1 (if Avanti is a stupid name for a telco. who came up with this gem for the name of the satellite ? What does it mean ?) Anyway their bird is up and the Eutelsat bird still has to go up and on the basis that Eutelsat lost their last bird I guess they are sweating bricks at the moment when you take into account that instead of using the state of the art launch facilities at ArianSpace they are using the essentially out of date facilities of Soyuz. Obviously they feel that the Russian buying public need to be pandered to. By the same token I believe that their next launch is from China which will really give them lots of headaches bearing in mind the United States’ embargo on China. The bricks being passed by Eutelsat execs. must have trebled in size following last weekend’s debacle in Baikonur.
    Who represents Avanti in Ireland ? Why are’nt they kicking Watty’s ass and taking him to task over his “know it all” statements ? Then again maybe they are cleverer than anybody and they are the people who are dealing with RTE and they are sitting back smugly and saying nothing ?
    Now to get back to Watty’s “theories”. Wild Blue, whose technology Eutelsat are using have spot beams covering the USA. Each beam is about 300 miles in diameter. Beam sizes can be set larger but this has to be decided at design stage (about two years before launch) and cannot be changed thereafter. Looking at the “smarties” coloured map of the proposed KA Sat beams over Europe , Eutelsat beams are about 300 miles in diameter also.
    One of these beams covers the island of Ireland so straightaway RTE have problems with rights holders as, whether we like it or not, the Northern part of this island is designated as being part of the United Kingdom and with about 1.5 million people there, this would increase the amount that RTE pays for its imported shows by about 40%. This is based on the assumption that when RTE negotiated for the rights to these shows they probably used population figures that were about twenty years old and definitely only applied to the Republic. Coupled with that is the fact that, utilising a 2’ 0” dish the present “Irish” beam covers quite a lot of the west coast of the UK. Therefore it is not rocket science to work out that a person on the outskirts of London with a 3’ 0” dish will receive all the Irish broadcasts. Having worked in the States and seen how these guys operate close up I do not think that these rights holders will be remotely interested in the “Peace Process” as we call it and hands across the border to the extent that they will allow RTE to serve another 40% of population for free !
    Watty suggests that the beam over Calais is on the same frequency as the beam over Ireland and that the guys in Eutelsat are going to throw a switch and increase the power to this beam to such an extent that they can reach over to the west coast of the UK and thus block out any transmission from the Irish beam accessing the island of Great Britain. Is this guy on magic mushrooms or what ??? In the first instance the Irish beam is going to be on maximum power at almost all times. In case you guys have forgotten when it rains in Ireland it damn well rains and this occurs for quite a large portion of the year so it is maximum settings on the Irish beam for at least 75% of the time. This results in the beam access reaching as far as middle England without any increase in dish size. By increasing the dish size this would mean that the whole of England and Wales and almost all of Scotland would be covered. But wait ! – what about Watty’s theory about turning up the power on the French beam ?? Let us see this for what it is – utter and absolute bolloney for the following reasons. The power addition is limited to about 40% so an increase of power on the French beam would just about reach London no more and if by some miracle it managed to drive further it would meet the equally upsurged Irish beam somewhere in middle England.
    If, for a moment we go back into fantasy land with Mr Watty’s theory and assume that Eutelsat could wave a magic wand and power up the French beam to such an extent that it could go as far as the Island of Anglesey and stop the Irish beam from reaching what the Brits euphemistically call “the mainland” we must also look at where else it would go. Watty is suggesting to us that Eutelsat can create a beam which is almost 1,000 miles in diameter. From personal experience I know that this is horse’s ass territory but as we are approaching Christmas let us assume that Santa Clause has weaved his magic and they can create a 1,000 mile diameter beam which can crush the Irish beam – what happens to the other side of this gigantic beam ? Those of you who would not consider yourselves “techies” but who scraped maths in your Leaving pay attention ! In order to reach the British west coast from northern France this enormous beam will also completely cover France, Belgium, Holland, Switzerland, a goodly part of Germany, Northern Spain, Northern Italy and other places that my geography is not good enough to name ! But there’s more !
    The beam that covers Ireland is a ****ty yellowy green colour indicating a particular frequency. This colour is repeated in the beam over northern Spain and also in the beam over northern Italy as well as the above mentioned beam over northern France. In my opinion the Basques will be pretty pissed off to find that their access to this great new technology has been knackered due to the fact that RTE want to serve 2% of us culchies in the west of Ireland and Eutelsat have jacked up the power in the French beam in order to do so and have thereby cut them off. More importantly I think is the beam over Turin which is the home town of Eutelsat . It is also going to be rendered ineffective by this powerful French beam so that the local Italians (many of whom probably work with Eutelsat) are not going to reap the benefits of this new technology either for the same reason. Tsk. Tsk. O the fairy tales of Ireland.
    The laws of physics are such that a circular beam when enlarged by whatever means possible will expand in equal proportions in all directions simultaneously.
    Lets face it – Watty’s theory is a load of crud pure and simple.
    I forget to state – I don’t work for Avanti or for any telco. in Ireland. Having been surrounded by loudmouths in the States for more years than I care to remember I don’t want to see that emerging here in Ireland and I don’t want to see a small company getting buried by the resources of a large conglomerate. I have seen too much of that in the States.
    As I said before – where are the guys from Avanti ? Why are you not in there fighting your corner ? Or is the fight over already and we don’t know about it ??
    I have just looked back on the size of this post – it shows what you can do when you have plenty of time on your hands ! Sorry about that guys.

    My eyes hurt :D

    A paragraph or three would be good.

    Deserves a thread of it's own somewhere.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 719 ✭✭✭12 element


    If his post gets quoted a few more times this could be the longest page on boards.ie!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,747 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    According to one of his recent posts Watty is a failed entrepreneur. According to himself he set up three enterprises which failed and he was involved in three others which also failed. In other words he struck out six times out of six !

    On this side of the Atlantic we are constantly being told that in the States if you fail in business and get up start again and again, this is seen as a badge of honour (or honor). Guess this only applies if you're American.

    Welcome home to the land of the begrudger semper fidelis.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭Apogee


    A Proton-M rocket that failed to launch 3 GPS satellites on December 5 could have been too heavy, say local investigators. The rocket crashed into the Pacific Ocean destroying its important cargo, and forcing Russian officials to suspend all Proton launches while they determine what went wrong.

    Russia’s Interfax news agency reported that one theory that the rocket’s DM-03 upper stage was carrying one tonne of fuel more than was necessary. This had the effect of slowing the rocket down, by about 100 metres per second, and thus insufficient to reach its target transfer orbit.

    The Board of Investigation has yet to report on its examination of the disaster, but the delay could impact the launch of Eutelsat’s important Ka-Sat craft scheduled for December 20.

    http://www.advanced-television.tv/index.php/2010/12/09/failed-russian-rocket-was-“too-heavy”/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭Apogee


    From the blog posts at least, it looks like launch is still proceeding.
    KA-SAT Joint Ops

    Posted by ILS Launch Team 6:01 a.m EST on 8 December 2010

    We started joint operations yesterday afternoon. It was a long day, but all parties did a great job and worked very hard to get the spacecraft (SC) mated to the payload adapter (PLA). Today the SC/PLA stack was mated to the Breeze M and is vertical in Hall 101 undergoing joint electrical testing. It’s awesome to see the SC mated to the Breeze M. The great thing about joint ops starting is that we are getting closer to the launch!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Yes its Eutelsat. Yes its 9E. No its not avanti. Ka is new within Europe for DTH (outside France but they are prone to cheating).

    I would like to know the basis you have worked out the 15%drop, Mr big font guy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭FRIENDO


    Your first time to post. A nasty post.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,946 ✭✭✭JDxtra


    This is my first time to post here so please bear with me if I am doing it wrong.
    You did it wrong. This ain't the conspiracy theories forum.

    On your first post you completely slated long time posters and contributors to this forum. Good start! Regardless of your supposed background and experience, this comes across as arrogant and rude.

    It may be best to not let your opinions build up over a year only for them to blurted out in a single post. Bite size opinions are easier to digest and respond to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭Mayo Exile


    fat-tony wrote: »
    Wow... this thread is about to go DEFCON 1 (or 5) - whichever is the bad one!

    Defcon 1 means that war is highly likely and prepare for strategic nuclear weapons launch, while 5 is peace, happiness and similar fluffy thoughts........


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    RED ALERT Captain :P:P:D Opinion Incoming :P

    mr semper fidelis: thought rte had the rights to show all thier tv programs across the whole ireland of ireland? and is it not in thier chater to provide their servece for the whole island so if thats the case then a spot beam over the whole of ireland should be ok?

    Even if there is overspill in the uk and i doubt there will be much if i understand the basics of the technology...rights shouldnt be a big issue (we get freeview on the east and north here and the uk channels havent being hung over it as of yet)

    as for the Ka tech debate i wont pretent to know anything about Ka except that it supports DVB S and DVB S2 for HD content (same as astra wide beem Ku - i think its Ku and C band to a marginal extent) since i only have looked into astra technology since im a avid 19.2e and 28.2e viewer and put up my own equipment :P

    semper fidelis: my one tip dude - even though youre post was very informative - it was also insulting in the manner in which you challenged other views....be respectful and the conversation will go far more constructively (even if opinions are tied into marketing or not...we average joes should and can distungish the difference between an honost opinion and an advert no matter how suttle (we dont need a opinion police service as of yet - let people decide themselves :P )

    :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I have run out of Attachment upload space here. So sorry, offsite link.

    http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/ka-sat-countdown#comment-1004358

    Which bits were informative of this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69476684&postcount=847 ?
    (Curious minds want to know)

    Also updated here with new link http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69479696&postcount=855

    OT
    BTW I wote a full length novel in 10 days once. I type fast. So spread over nearly 10 years my posts are not that much time wasted.
    I built www.saortv.info in a morning. Added a little since.


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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    watty wrote: »
    I have run out of Attachment upload space here. So sorry, offsite link.

    http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/ka-sat-countdown#comment-1004358

    Which bits were informative of this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69476684&postcount=847 ?
    (Curious minds want to know)

    Also updated here with new link http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69479696&postcount=855

    OT
    BTW I wote a full length novel in 10 days once. I type fast. So spread over nearly 10 years my posts are not that much time wasted.
    I built www.saortv.info in a morning. Added a little since.

    It was said in scarcasm in all honesty (ill make sure to put it in brackets in future :P) Sorry!

    Detailed analysis suggests a rant and a certain dislike for you and your failed enterprises (only noting what was said)- still how can we be sure taht the spot beams will operate to ensure limited range and arent the individual spots power effected by the number of spots using the same frequency and the proximity of these spots to each other? (as i said i am not familiar with this spot beam technology besides teh articles you kindly provided watty on boards plus i am not familiar with the rsults of the spot beams employed in the states so....)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭marclt


    Just a note to members to refrain from personal attacks on these boards. I am not going to lock the thread, and I believe that the discussion should continue as there have been some very informative posts.

    It's the season of goodwill - be good!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Mayo Exile wrote: »
    Defcon 1 means that war is highly likely and prepare for strategic nuclear weapons launch, while 5 is peace, happiness and similar fluffy thoughts........
    Thanks Mayo Exile! I couldn't find the irony smiley!
    I knew the back-seat modding would break out once our American buddy had penned his magnum opus...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    still how can we be sure taht the spot beams will operate to ensure limited range and arent the individual spots power effected by the number of spots using the same frequency and the proximity of these spots to each other? (as i said i am not familiar with this spot beam technology besides teh articles you kindly provided watty on boards plus i am not familiar with the rsults of the spot beams employed in the states so....)

    Read http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/ka-sat-countdown#comment-1004358

    Feel free to sign up and comment/ask questions there that I will try to answer. There are lots of things I don't know and things I get wrong. I'm a real person.

    I have no idea who this person is. Or why they should make mention of business ventures never described here on boards other than I think these posts in context to explain to someone the risks of becoming an installer.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69017142&postcount=22
    His comment seems to seize on this out of context.

    We all know Mr ISAA isn't the strongest on "heterographs" (There/Their/They're and similar). To single out that is an unwarrented personal attack and the forum here is the most valid place in Ireland to promote the ISAA. The mods would have complained long ago if it was not appropriate. The ISAA will benefit all Satellite & TV users.

    It's in the rules of Boards that a Commerical person posting must highlight his/her "interest" and thus not be an actual shill. A signature link complying with normal signature rules is allowed for a Commercial poster that genuinely contributes. Some people do think that too much latitude is given. But again it's up to the Moderators and actual "shilling" is stamped on pretty quick.

    The ICDG group of forums imported to Boards from elsewhere and rather than a pure web 2.0 of Blind leading Blind there are real Professionals and qualified Engineers bothering to help people.

    The user name Semper Fidelis is Motto of US marines. All the Americans and Irish Americans I know are very friendly, helpful people.
    Around 1883, the [US] Marines adopted their current motto "Semper Fidelis"
    Always Faithful though my Schoolboy latin was never magnus.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,339 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    fat-tony wrote: »
    once our American buddy had penned his magnum opus...

    With that font size it was a .44 magnum :) .38 for the rest of us

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,711 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Well stated watty. You are well able to defend your views. As you say, the mods are vigilant to posters pimping their services and stamp it out. Similarly, personal comments are unwarranted in these technical forums - leave it to the denizens of political and after-hour forums! Clicking on the "Report Post" button will alert a mod if folks are unhappy with comments posted, otherwise threads quickly degenerate into a slagging match.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,818 ✭✭✭Minstrel27


    FRIENDO wrote: »
    Your first time to post. A nasty post.

    Yes, it does read like something penned by a bitter angry person.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭Apogee


    PARIS — Russia’s Proton rocket will return to service at the end of December to launch a large commercial telecommunications satellite following a government inquiry that found the vehicle’s Dec. 5 failure was caused by overfueling of its upper stage, Russian and International Launch Services (ILS) officials said Dec. 10.

    The state commission investigating the failure, in which three Russian Glonass timing and navigation satellites were destroyed, has cleared Proton’s three lower stages from any involvement in the malfunction. Commercial Proton rockets marketed by Reston, Va.-based ILS use the same lower three stages but a different upper stage, called Breeze M. The Glonass launch used a new version of the Russian Block DM upper stage.

    The Russian space agency, Roskosmos, on Dec. 10 confirmed the commission’s preliminary finding that the three Proton stages need not be grounded. A final report is due as soon as the week of Dec. 13.

    James M. Bonner, chief technical officer for ILS, said the new version of the Block DM stage — which is built by RSC Energia of Korolev, Russia — features larger propellant tanks.

    In what appears to have been a remarkable oversight, the personnel fueling the Block DM stage for the Glonass launch did not account for the larger tanks. That led to loading between 1,000 and 2,000 kilograms more propellant on the Block DM stage than what had been planned for the Glonass mission. Like the U.S. GPS navigation satellites, the Glonass system operates in medium Earth orbit.

    As a result of the excess propellant, the Proton’s third stage, suffering from the additional weight it was carrying, underperformed, placing the Block DM stage and the stack of Glonass satellites into a lower-than-planned, suborbital drop-off point.

    ILS is owned by Khrunichev State Research and Production Space Center of Moscow, which is prime contractor for Proton’s three lower stages as well as for the Breeze M upper stage.

    In an interview, Bonner said ILS will spend the week of Dec. 13 in Moscow reviewing the state commission’s findings. After consulting with insurance underwriters and with Paris-based Eutelsat, whose Ka-Sat satellite is ILS’s next Proton passenger, Ka-Sat’s launch will be moved from Dec. 20 to a yet undetermined date in late December, he said.

    “We will be there to do our due diligence and to review the state commission’s findings,” Bonner said. “Our assumption now is that this will cause a delay of seven or eight, or up to 10 days.”

    Russian holidays the first week of January argue against planning a launch during that period.

    The state commission investigating the failure was led by G.G. Raikunov, director general of Russia’s state-owned TsNIIMash space engineering services company. In a statement of preliminary findings that Raikunov signed Dec. 10, the commission says: “[Telemetry] data analyses … show that no issues with the functioning of [Proton’s three-stage] systems and assemblies have been detected .… In view of the above, the Interdepartmental Commission deems it possible to proceed with further technical facility processing operations of [the launch vehicle] to launch … Ka-Sat per the approved schedule.”

    http://www.spacenews.com/launch/101210-proton-flight-december.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    I feel obliged to comment on a couple of aspects of recent posts:

    The main post by semper fidelis appears to be more concerned with inflammatory language than technical argument. It's not possible to have comprehensive arguments taken seriously when points are backed up with the business failures and the imagined biases of various posters. This is a really poor job of backing an argument up.

    It appears that said poster is also not aware of how things operate this side of the water as far as rights etc. are concerned.

    It's nonsense to think or purvey the idea that people in Britain are going to invest in large dishes just to pick up Ireland's finest free public service and commercial broadcasting. Furthermore, it's quite apparent from the success of Freesat, the UK's Ku-band equivalent, that rights-holders don't seem to particularly care about minor overspill into other neighbouring countries. It's facetious to say that this is because of language barriers with most of the countries that can receive Astra 2D, as many europeans have reasonable standards of english. Particularly younger people, who would be more likely to watch shows that fetch a high rights premium. Why would most people bother to put up dishes for a satellite service which would only have limited interest for them, when the internet could (albeit illegally) supply them with only the programmes they want and at essentially no extra cost??

    Also, I really can't see a proportionate increase in rights costs for RTÉ with saorsat when they already cover half of the population of a part of the UK, as Northern Ireland is referred to as, deliberately with terrestrial transmitters.

    I finally would like to point out that I have disagreed with watty about a couple of opinions on these forums in the past but I still would respect his wide ranging knowledge on a technical level. More importantly, were he to disagree with me, he would at least show me the respect of arguing his side with cohesive arguments instead of childish rants.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Launch date put back a week - 27th to 30th Dec.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8 semper fidelis


    Circle the wagons boys there are incoming hostiles on the way. Somebody has dared to question one of the "family" particularly one of the family Gurus. Let's go to DefCon 127 quick !. It is obvious that razor sharp repartee exists on this forum as my font size is being attacked. For the benefit of you young whippersnappers when you get to my age various things go into decline and not necessarily eyesight although it is usually one of the first. God bless Mr Gates for giving me the ability to enlarge the print face. Don't worry guys you have it all before you. I see,according to Watty's post that he wrote a novel in 10 days - is there no end to this man's genius ? Tom Clancy and Norman Mailer move over. There is a new kid on the block.
    Now let's get down to business relative to my last post ( boy I'm beginning to enjoy this. I should have rocked this boat ages ago ! )
    The point I made which seems to be lost on everybody in the rush to decapitate me is that some people on this forum are pushing their own commercial agendas and none more so than Watty. Now Watty has replied to my post but nowhere in these replies does he state categorically that he has no commercial connection with Eutelsat. (even with failing eyesight I cannot see any meaningful denial ) Neither does he explain his St. Paul moment when he changed his opinion through a full 180 degrees and went from saying that the RTE spin would never work to his latest idealogy that this is a great idea. His latest "circles in the Sky" might be good for a high school art class but they are pure and utter bolloney as far as practical usage is concerned. Since this whole Saor Sat thing started Watty has been operating in horse's ass territory with his theories but the problem is that these theories are being accepted as fact by people looking in on this forum.
    Make no mistake about it Watty is a very very clever guy and is very clued in when it comes to wireless operation in general as I can see from his various posts in that area. Why then, I have to ask myself, is a clever guy like Watty pushing this ridiculous line relative to spot beam capabilities. Does he believe it ? Of course not. He is merely trotting out the company line.
    By the way, he asked do I work for Real Digital .The answer is no.
    Somebody else in an effort to ridicule me asked why would anybody in the UK want to bother putting up a dish to receive the four Irish channels. You're missing the point sonny. It's not about reception - its about reception capability.

    The guys with the pinky rings in Hollywood who control worldwide entertainment rights are not interested in whether anybody actually watches the shows or not. It is the fact that the transmission system makes it such that they are capable of watching these shows and wherever there is a capability there is a number cruncher calculating the population of the area being served by the signal.
    My questions for Watty therefore is :
    1. Do you have a commercial arrangement of any sort whatsoever with Eutelsat or any of its agents ?
    2. Do you seriously believe the stuff that you are posting relative to spot beam technology ?
    3. Why did you do an about face in your opinion relative to the availability of the beam over the greater part of the UK ?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,339 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Thanks for reducing the font size, makes it easier to read and much more likely to be read I reckon.

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 669 ✭✭✭galait


    . Somebody has dared to question one of the "family" particularly one of the family Gurus.?

    I agree with this ,If any of the boys are questioned or shown in a bad light the thread is deleted by a MOD


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Galait,

    There is a way of posting on topic without attacking the poster. It shouldnt get personal. In the same way that I could have said that somebody has been living in America too long if they think they can bully their way onto the board in the face of long time contributors.

    Mr Big Font Guy thanks for finding the magnifying glass supplied by Mr Gates, we dont all have to use it, so you dont have to post in it.

    Secondly, welcome back to Ireland. Yes its all change. I think you may be asking the wrong questions. Thats why you have been coming up with the wrong answers.

    One of the gang.

    STB Corleone


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,339 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    galait wrote: »
    I agree with this ,If any of the boys are questioned or shown in a bad light the thread is deleted by a MOD

    Nonsense, threads get locked when people make abusive and/or personal comments or start threads economical with the truth for malicious reasons. If you have a problem with a mods decison there is a forum to bring your view to. Its certainly not here.

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's a long while since anything deleted. Locked maybe.
    My questions for Watty therefore is :
    1. Do you have a commercial arrangement of any sort whatsoever with Eutelsat or any of its agents ?
    2. Do you seriously believe the stuff that you are posting relative to spot beam technology ?
    3. Why did you do an about face in your opinion relative to the availability of the beam over the greater part of the UK ?

    Reasonable questions.

    1) No. I used to do R&D for an ISP. That was nearly two years ago. I have no vested interest or agenda at all. So strike out the Conspiracy theory, I must either be stupid, or there is something you skipped over and missed. But if I was a Shill, I'd say that anyway.

    2) Yes. These are not spot beams from different satellites. Did you read 2nd comment here? What is wrong with the analysis? If I post fantasy stuff for fun I put a :)

    3) A normal Ka Spot beam is going to be nearly x2 size of the Ka-Spots. If there is no other signal on same frequency from a different beam on same satellite, you can extend to about x4 or x5 size by having a bigger dish. But Ka-Sat is a bit more complicated than that. It's not like the Hotbird 6 Ka-Spots, or Hylas 1 Ka-Spots or like Astra 2D. Re-read http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/ka-sat-countdown#comments I infact argue that the Ka-Sat spots have a true footprint about twice the shown diameter (x4 area). Read the link to see reasoning. The main design requirement is that footprint from adjacent spots of the same polarity band must drop off enough to all low enough "interference" in the "fake" spot circles which are workable service area, not true EIRP footprint contours.

    Initially I didn't think of Ka-Sat. When after 20minutes I realised it could only be Ka-Sat they meant, I realised the implications. no matter HOW big a Dish in South East England is, it can't use Irish Spot. There is quite a large part of UK that neither the Irish or the Calais French Spot will work. I imagine on South Coast of UK (Brighton, Plymouth, Hastings, Dover etc) the French spot might not have enough interference from Irish spot.

    Of course if there is actually no Broadband service or signal on the French spot mentioned, then the normal larger dish as you move away from Ireland applies.

    I have met people from many Satellite companies in the past. Gilat, Hughes, Viasat etc... I have not been involved in the that area for a few years. I also have a colleague that in the past has been involved with commissioning and managing an Earth Station.

    There is not just an Issue with imported TV for RTE, TG4 and TV3 over mainland UK, but also home-produced content would be more expensive for the x20 bigger audience of mainland UK

    RTE NL / RTE has been deliberately broadcasting for about 25 years into N.I. Cairn Hill is in Longford, but gives very good N.I. Coverage. Holy Hill TX in Donegal is practically in N.I. Mast is on edge of border, excellent coverage for Derry. Clermont Carn on mountain at border and is good reception in most of Belfast. Truskmore in Sligo is as good in SW N.I. as in Sligo/Mayo!

    So Analogue covers 55% to 65% of N.I. Population. RTE1, RTE2 and TG4 are also on Virgin Cable and Sky Digital (pay TV) in N.I.

    It's part of RTE & TG4 "mandate" to "cover" N.I. So the fact that Irish Ka-Sat Beam is probably pretty good there (might need 80cm in Far North East) isn't an issue.

    There are no shortage of people here expert enough to point out when I either spout rubbish or make a mistake.
    I do make mistakes. There are also people that email me or PM off thread to give a point of view. Or to ask clarification when they don't want to look stupid on thread.

    I have no problem with questions or debate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    God bless Mr Gates for giving me the ability to enlarge the print face.

    I have 15.4" 1600x1200 screen. I have to upgrade the reading glasses every so often.

    On Firefox there is View | Zoom | Zoom text only option and
    Zoom in Ctrl +
    Zoom out Ctrl -

    (I only use that when folks have used stupidly small text like this or I have misplaced my glasses)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭FRIENDO


    @ semper fidelis

    On reading your posts I find that you have mentioned other Tech board.ie users in a negative light.

    I have always found the people you refer to as being very honest, helpful, trusting and informative people.

    I hope you can take example from the above and possibly bring some constructive and positive posts in the future.

    Thankyou


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    @ semper fidelis
    I find your posts quite offensive.

    1. If a poster has a commercial interest does not mean that he is pimping his business, no more than a painter/decorator is pushing his business if he suggest what type of paint you should use to paint your bike.

    2. Do you think we are all so stupid that we would not notice if he did push his own business.

    3. This is a technical forum that in general is quite genteel and polite, and in general is intended to be helpful to other posters. Your tone and manner displayed in your posts demonstates your total lack of such qualities, and you continued unwaranted personal attacks on long-term posters is both offensive to those posters, and to all posters as it insults their intelligence.

    4. You claim superior technical expertise in satellites than your quarry. Well lets hear it. What is your background? When were you in space? Were you well placed in NASA? Or was the nearest you got to a satellite was when you were at the top of a ladder as you screwed in a bolt to hold a dish to the wall?

    5. Not everyone on this side of the pond is driven solely by money. Nor are they driven by a wish to make their own viewpoint the only one allowed to be expressed. Open discussions are normally not conducted as a diatribe of invective of a personal nature directed at particular posters with no corresponding evidence to back up those views.

    I have refrained from joining in so far because I thought that others would have put you right, but alas no. You do not understand soft language.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭MACHEAD


    This is hotting up nicely now! Mmmm! for some strange reason that wonderful incidental music from 'Mississippi Burning' keeps comming to mind after reading this. So who's going to be the Gene Hackman character? Or maybe we should draw out more of an 'Enemy Of The State' analagy, given the 'hi-tech' content, all those satellites and all! Oh! there's the Gene Hackman thing popping up again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Lyngsat now showing 1012 end or 110118-31 i.e. between end December 2010 or after Russian Christmas Holidays (Christmas is 7th January in Russia).


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    I call bull**** on a number of facets of semper fidelis's subsequent post.

    In a hyperbolic attempt to rebut the core of my last post, I don't see any proof or effort to show why exactly those in Hollywood will want more money for broadcasting rights here. How do you know the methodologies behind these decisions and where is your proof for this hypothesis? Because that's all it is really. I illustrated how RTÉ already intentionally broadcasts into Northern Ireland as a longstanding arrangement and is mandated by law in this country. This would at least implicate that the rights issues for this have been previously dealt with and copyright holders would be aware of this coverage.

    There was no attempt to deal with the particularly salient example of Freesat working off a fairly significant Ku-band spot beam which can cover much of Western Europe with a larger dish.

    Also, I believe there must be a method behind RTÉ's supposed madness and I'm skeptical about there being a desire in the broadcaster to commit to another transmission method which would increase the costs of programming permanently, on top of the somewhat hefty transmission costs.

    There has been an inadequate response to the reception capability in the UK discussion. I would like to hear what exactly Semper Fidelis' expectations are for coverage when Ka-sat launches next year.

    Finally, does the aforementioned poster feel satisfied with Watty's response in relation to commercial agendas? I am alarmed at the ascerbic and personal criticisms of a number of posters here without corresponding evidence to back those charges up. Only after repeatedly claiming that Watty has personal dealings with Eutelsat do you take a moment to actually ask the question again. And solely because you didn't like the clarity of the first answer. I think it's only fair on a public forum that those who ask questions should be questioned too, so could you clarify any commercial agenda(s) you may have?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 669 ✭✭✭galait


    Tony wrote: »
    Nonsense, threads get locked when people make abusive and/or personal comments or start threads economical with the truth for malicious reasons. If you have a problem with a mods decison there is a forum to bring your view to. Its certainly not here.


    Well what happened to the thread a couple of weeks ago comparing prices on satellite.ie to vanjak.com?, It was deleted


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭Apogee


    watty wrote: »
    Lyngsat now showing 1012 end or 110118-31 i.e. between end December 2010 or after Russian Christmas Holidays (Christmas is 7th January in Russia).

    Interfax are reporting a possible December 26th launch. IME Lyngsat is not reliable for launch dates.
    galait wrote: »
    Well what happened to the thread a couple of weeks ago comparing prices on satellite.ie to vanjak.com?, It was deleted

    Any chance this irrelevant sh*te could be posted elsewhere and this thread not be dragged off-topic again?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,339 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    galait wrote: »
    Well what happened to the thread a couple of weeks ago comparing prices on satellite.ie to vanjak.com?, It was deleted

    I've not seen the thread you mentioned but perhaps it was because Vanjak are not retailers perhaps? Ask yourself why anyone would start such a thread.

    Take it up with a mod for an explanation this is not the place for it.

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Apogee wrote: »
    Interfax are reporting a possible December 26th launch. IME Lyngsat is not reliable for launch dates.



    Any chance this irrelevant sh*te could be posted elsewhere and this thread not be dragged off-topic again?

    1) Agreed. 26th to 29th ish They don't want to go into Jan.

    2) Agreed also. People should not make personal replys to personal attacks, there are Moderators.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Eutelsat have released a new footprint map, minus spotbeams.

    KA-SAT.gif

    http://www.eutelsat.com/satellites/9e_ka-sat_popd.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭enda1


    How narrow a spot beam are we talking here that RTE will be using?

    Y'all think the range will extend to any of GB or further to continental Europe?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No.


    The reason why is a bit different to "ordinary" satellites
    http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage (re-written on 17th Dec 2010)

    The actual spot is up to 400km/600miles diameter or more depending on dish size. But the usable service area is about 1/4. Read the article.

    Possible Saorsat reception
    • Anywhere in Ireland that can "see" 9E satellite
    • The IOM and N.I. are probably OK on a fairly normal size dish.
    • A big dish in parts of Western Isles.
    • North West Scottish Highlands is Dubious.
    • Welsh & Cornish coasts might be more likely on a TV aerial!

    Reception unlikely anywhere else if Viasat/Tooway/Eutelsat have any Internet customers on "lemon" coloured spots.

    BTW, the above "all in one" map isn't a conventional "foot print" map at all. It's areas with "Tooway" Internet access :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭Apogee


    enda1 wrote: »
    How narrow a spot beam are we talking here that RTE will be using?

    Y'all think the range will extend to any of GB or further to continental Europe?

    Reception is likely to be limited to a relatively small area over Ireland and Britain. In truth, we won't know how much of GB will be able to receive the service unless/until it's all up and running and people start checking with their own dishes i.e. proper, firsthand reception reports.

    The lack of up-to-date technical data doesn't help matters and footprint maps are only indicative at the best of times.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's also likely that if someone in Birmingham receives it initially (which would be outlay of separate dish and Ka band LNBF) due to lack of a service on the Calais Spot, that they would later lose it completely.

    Anyone outside the Island of Ireland would do well to wait and see (maybe a year) what the uptake of serivces are on Ka-Sat, assuming it works at all.

    Basically it's not the same situation as Astra 2D. With Astra 2D the "out of service area" folk are mostly not having English as main language and the UK broadcasters have Rights for Ireland and UK usually. That's nearly 70m potential viewers?

    RTE NL expects to Broadcast to under 5M viewers. So using Astra 2D with it's perfect UK reception and extended European reception isn't plausible
    0_astra_2D_north_L.jpgastra2dfootprint.png
    Official and un-official Footprints of Astra 2D
    (Most Freesat / FTA channels for UK/Ireland)

    The "Real" Ka-Sat foot prints are certainly much bigger (depending on dish size) than the tiny circles. But ALL 80+ spots come from the SAME satellite. Probably spots using the SAME polarisation and Frequency are from the same dish (one of four) using different offset feed.

    So once you are far enough at right angles to tangent between two "same spots" the interference increases till you lose the wanted signal, if the other spot is actually got services running that overlap in frequency. Like the interference is too much before half way. The dish size doesn't matter.

    We don't know exactly where between pairs of "matching spots" that the ratio of Wanted / Unwanted signal is too poor. I've made some educated guesses in the article.

    The reception reports from Wales as you move from coast inland on line between Irish and Calais French spot will be very interesting. Especially when Any French Internet services are runnning and if people have gear to report the real BER or Eb/No, not just a "quality" % on a set box.

    OTH if no-one buys any Internet on Ka-Sat, a big dish in France might work fine. Nothing stopping Tooway/Eutelsat/Viasat transmitting dummy data on all the empty bandwidth. The electricity is free.


This discussion has been closed.
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