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VRT Megathread - ALL VRT DISCUSSION IN HERE - Read First Post

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    #302
    Drummerboy08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    Stekeely wrote: »
    why bring politics into it? typical of some people who bring politics into everything,Fine Gael,Labour and Sinn Fein have all posted on this page in support,as to being "anti-establishment" SO WHAT! is that illegal? just because someone disagrees with your point of view,I havent paid VRT on any vehicle I've owned,I know the consequences,if I get caught fair cop,my current car is a banger,vrt owed is negligible,they can crush it for all I care,I've got the money to pay vrt but dont want to.
    "you'll just have to pay it like the rest of us" WHY? because YOU say so...lol


    Good man. Your a credit to your country. :rolleyes:


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    #303
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    ryanstewart wrote: »
    http://www.blackwatermotors.ie/UserFiles/File/Peter_Bacon_Report_SIMI.pdf

    Indeed there is, including a line about "no profiteering during the boom"

    Tax take on cars "is the highest in the EU". That needs to be restated on a per vehicle basis, as it's simply not believable given the scandanavian tax regimes; both VRT equivalents and higher VAT levels.

    Pre tax prices are not the same in the UK and Ireland as Peter Bacon is not comparing like with like in terms of vehicle specifications.

    Post tax prices are second highest in the EU (questionable) "mainly" due to VRT. We need to know the other factors.

    "There is no evidence to suggest that the problems in the
    sector are as a result of excessive investment in premises." - I can find you dozens of dealers who will disagree! (what, by the way, do you suggest we do with al the empty mausoleums to the former industry if VRT is removed?)

    He also mentions the rental sector, without the mass tourism to which we have become accustomed delaers have been hit as they have reduced income from rentals.

    He notes that changes to VRT must have a 2 year implementation delay, this would cause a complete sales collapse during those 2 years. He has no panacea for this.

    He also mentions "road tax", but I know of no such tax, not in Ireland anyway. He's an economist for **** sake, if he makes such basic mistakes as this, then I'd question how much real effort went in this report.

    A VRT rebate, sure why not, I might as well get an exise rebate on the contents of the drinks cabinet if I move out of the state too. That one just takes the biscuit.

    What changes were made to the report following the "detailed consideration" of the industry.

    I could go on, but you see, statistics can be manipulated to show whatever you want, and the state will chose what suits it best.
    ryanstewart wrote: »
    http://www.blackwatermotors.ie/UserFiles/File/Motor_Industry_Final_Report_15_September_2009.pdf

    There's a lot of reading in here!
    The Report recommends a system whereby the high residual VRT in used cars is protected
    during the phase-out period so as to not repeat what happened in July 2008.
    Tell us oh wise ones what this system could be? Take the hit or take tax!

    Relatively low car ownership rates:confused::confused:
    That's it, I'm not reading any further. There are more cars in this country than active driving licences...I would equate it to our 105% mobile phone penetration!
    ryanstewart wrote: »
    I also didn't say that cars would be significantly cheaper than northern ireland - read it again - with prices on par with the north, possibly marginally cheaper, but significantly cheaper than they currently are here.
    Then the argument of northern customers coming south makes no sense.
    ryanstewart wrote: »
    Sales at the moment are also buoyant - figures from central statistics office!
    I specifically stated naturally buoyant. Artificially buoyant markets are no place to be making changes.
    ryanstewart wrote: »
    I think I have answered your point - people expect to pay a sales tax, but not this additional tax
    Why would people not expect ot pay VRT? Are they stupid? Are they from a different planet. It's been here since 1992 you know. An argument of unexpectedness wouldn't have a hope of standing up in court.
    ryanstewart wrote: »
    Scenario 2:
    Used car worth 5000 depreciates by average 25% - loss of €1250
    Buying a newer used car - value 10000 - depreciated by average 25% - €7500- net saving to the consumer of €1250
    If you're so sure structures can be implemented, put them with your proposal. In the scenario above who is going to provide the €250k (very conservative estimate) write off to the dealer with 100 used cars on his forecourt.
    ryanstewart wrote: »
    Who on a low paid job can afford a new car? It's the same old story in this country - those who have money get incentives, those who don't, get stepped on.
    People on the dole can afford them, but that's an argument for the politics forum. Also; people who have money don't tend to have 10 year old cars they want to scrap to get a Yaris or Clio. In the case of the few weeks I did at the start of the year, it was mainly people with mid 90s Fiestas, Escorts and Starlets that were scrapping, and doing it in large numbers.

    And FINALLY, this is all underscored by the industry's indecision. It asked that the VAT allocation be addressed in the budget last October 12 months, the government obliged giving exactly what had been asked for in the Budget Statement, only for the SIMI to come back begging for the provision to be excluded from the Finance Bill, as it may have unforeseen effects on the industry. There are plenty of dealers out there that feel that way about their second hand stock and the removal of VRT.


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    #304
    Stekeely
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭Stekeely


    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    Good man. Your a credit to your country. :rolleyes:

    Thanks,but whats Northern Ireland got to do with this? ;)


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    #305
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Stekeely wrote: »
    Thanks,but whats Northern Ireland got to do with this? ;)

    Why would you get caught for VRT then, even if it's negligible? What are you on about?


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    #306
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Stekeely wrote: »
    Thanks,but whats Northern Ireland got to do with this? ;)

    Why would you be paying VRT if you are living in Northern Ireland?


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    #307
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,479 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Why would you get caught for VRT then, even if it's negligible? What are you on about?
    k_mac wrote: »
    Why would you be paying VRT if you are living in Northern Ireland?

    he probably lives here now but can't be bothered contributing the required taxes.


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    #308
    R.O.R
    Registered Users Posts: 12,678 ✭✭✭✭R.O.R


    Berty wrote: »
    How so?

    Not having VRT encourage people to buy ALL their cars here because the savings achieved heading to the UK would no longer exist, surely?

    All the cars i buy are sourced in Ireland so i'm not really bothered about imports for this scenario.

    We currently have a "book" of vehicles due back to us over the next few years which is valued at say 1 million. Get rid of VRT and you've now slashed that to 600,000 meaning at least 100,000 loss on used vehicles each year over the next 4 years, and we are one of the smaller leasing companies. We couldn't take that sort of hit again and there aren't many that can either.


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    #309
    Stekeely
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭Stekeely


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Why would you get caught for VRT then, even if it's negligible? What are you on about?
    Are you taking the piss or are you really this dumb?


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    #310
    Stekeely
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭Stekeely


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    he probably lives here now but can't be bothered contributing the required taxes.

    :D someone on here has a bit of intelligence :D


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    #311
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Stekeely wrote: »
    Are you taking the piss or are you really this dumb?

    Attack the post and not the poster please, Stekeely, or you won't last long around here...


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    #312
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    ryanstewart wrote: »
    The reason I've not replied to many of your responses is because they are so blatantly wrong, and I'm sure those who are contributing to this discussion who oppose or agree recognise this.
    Ryan, I work in the motor industry and have VRT'd many cars myself. I do know what I'm talking about. It's not just me you've ignored - you seem to ignore anyone with any valid posts!
    ryanstewart wrote: »
    (ps dublin VRO may be able to this as it's the central office, but others can't - my father wanted a Laois plate (LS), and was told he have to go there to reg his car, they could only reg cars as DL.)
    Central office???? I could have sworn that the central vehicle registrations office was in Shannon! Get your facts together will you. I also know of people who live in Waterford you've registered cars in the Donegal office!


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    #313
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    steve06 wrote: »
    Central office???? I could have sworn that the central vehicle registrations office was in Shannon!
    And the VRO HQ is in Rosslare, with the central telephone enquiries system in Tipp.

    Seems to be poor auld Ryan has been made anti-VRT spokesman without actually knowing that much about it.:o


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    #314
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,479 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Seems to be poor auld Ryan has been made anti-VRT spokesman without actually knowing that much about it.:o

    In this country that seems to be a usual enough occurrence :pac:


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    #315
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    In this country that seems to be a usual enough occurrence :pac:

    Bright future ahead in politics I reckon!


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    #316
    mizzieme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭mizzieme


    Its a pity that we cant all agree that VRT is a tax that in reality hid the metal prices for cars that we have all paid for too long in the republic, its not all about VRT its about propping up support structures such as low corporate tax etc or hitting the middle classes by any type of back door the government can get us on.
    Really the problem has been brought to the attention of everybody in the last 18 months due to the changes to VRT in 2008 - which in fairness is very workable.
    but what do we do with the cars that had in the region of €10,000 wrote off there value but people are still paying payments on the full price! again very unfair.

    I think put an omissions tax on cars verified if not bought new happening when you do your first NCT[this now has to happen when a car is being bordered now anyway] - do all cars and you pay high if you are damaging the environment - it will get all the old bangers off the streets and the car can come from anywhere. Then the government can do something positive with the taxes do a split with the greens [oh arent they supposed to be doing that now???]

    it will make sure the motor industry works for its keep in that we could, should we want to buy the same make and model from UK /ROI to get a higher spec model than is available here or the motor industry would stock comparative cars.

    if nothing else a recession should make us thinks about how much we spend and on what - a car now is a luxury and regardless of what the rest of the country thinks the majority of us 'northerners' are law abiding and tax paying citizens of the state.
    Ryan Stewart in my mind is asking many of the right questions and holds his hands up if he is wrong on a point and if we did what the pensioners did and stood together we could have a fair and consistent governance in this country of ours.


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    #317
    ryanstewart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭ryanstewart


    JHMEG wrote: »
    And the VRO HQ is in Rosslare, with the central telephone enquiries system in Tipp.

    Seems to be poor auld Ryan has been made anti-VRT spokesman without actually knowing that much about it.:o

    Things may have changed since then, on the point I made earlier! And yes I do hold my hands up if I'm wrong on something, and the last month has been a steep learning curve - I've said it before - I freely admit I don't have ALL the answers, but to be honest do the people who run the country have all the answers? Maybe if they actually admitted some of their mistakes, or looked outside the walls of their own parties we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now. They are the ones who get the big money to find the answers, are we to just sit back and wait on them to find them?

    What has been offered has been a constructive debate, although some people have been taking cheap snipes at less relevant points, yet offering no real solution other than "leave it alone and we'll all be grand." Others have offered challenging questions, which are very good points, and also deserve debate.

    If enough interest and argument is generated, maybe the powers that be will sit up and listen, and realise there is a problem which needs sorted out, but most people will just do the same old thing, because it's easier to do that.


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    #318
    mizzieme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭mizzieme


    ryanstewart wrote: »

    What has been offered has been a constructive debate, although some people have been taking cheap snipes at less relevant points, yet offering no real solution other than "leave it alone and we'll all be grand." Others have offered challenging questions, which are very good points, and also deserve debate.

    If enough interest and argument is generated, maybe the powers that be will sit up and listen, and realise there is a problem which needs sorted out, but most people will just do the same old thing, because it's easier to do that.

    I know that I am going a bit off topic but your last paragraph sums up the situation and the many 'problems' for everything that involves the government at this time and the attitude of many of the Irish people the French would never stand for a pitiful ineffective government.


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    #319
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,479 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    ryanstewart wrote: »
    If enough interest and argument is generated, maybe the powers that be will sit up and listen, and realise there is a problem which needs sorted out, but most people will just do the same old thing, because it's easier to do that.

    But there isn't a problem. VRT works and while some may not like it, it is an efficient way of taxing those who feel the need to have a new car. Getting rid of it will cause more problems than leaving it be IMO


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    #320
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    ryanstewart wrote: »
    I freely admit I don't have ALL the answers, but to be honest do the people who run the country have all the answers?

    The campaign seems nothing but a reaction to the enforcement of VRT in Donegal. It is not thought out.

    To be made leader I think you just happened to be in right place at the right time, maybe the Lidl carpark when a car was being impounded, and maybe you shouted the loudest, so the mob made you the boss.

    I don't think you have any answers. Even the title of your Facebook page. Inflammatory and plain wrong.


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    #321
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    But there isn't a problem. VRT works and while some may not like it, it is an efficient way of taxing those who feel the need to have a new car. Getting rid of it will cause more problems than leaving it be IMO
    All in all, this is the bottom line. It's sad and unfair but it's true and I'd consider it probably the most valid post in this thread!


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    #322
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    ryanstewart wrote: »
    And yes I do hold my hands up if I'm wrong on something, and the last month has been a steep learning curve - I've said it before - I freely admit I don't have ALL the answers, but to be honest do the people who run the country have all the answers? Maybe if they actually admitted some of their mistakes,.

    Without meanimg to stick on one point. Do you really? The title of the facebook page hasnt changed, despite you fnding out VRT actually isnt illegal.

    Bit harsh to be critiscising others for not acknowledgeing their mistakes.


    I can only assume the title has been left as is because it draws people in and actual facts are not overly important.


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    #323
    snaps
    Registered Users Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭snaps


    I really cant understand why VRT isn't illegal in the views of the EU. I think its very unfair that i cannot buy a car from another EU country, bring it in and re register it here. I can buy ciggerattes, Alcohol, Electrical equiptment all in the EU and have it delievered/bring it back to Ireland without penalty, so why are cars different?

    If the shoe was on the other foot, bringing a car into another EU country, you dont even have to have the plates changed. France for example allows you to register the EU plates already on it with the french authority's, then get French Insurance and i assume also have the vehicle checked for road worthyness.


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    #324
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    snaps wrote: »
    I really cant understand why VRT isn't illegal in the views of the EU. I think its very unfair that i cannot buy a car from another EU country, bring it in and re register it here. I can buy ciggerattes, Alcohol, Electrical equiptment all in the EU and have it delievered/bring it back to Ireland without penalty, so why are cars different?

    If the shoe was on the other foot, bringing a car into another EU country, you dont even have to have the plates changed. France for example allows you to register the EU plates already on it with the french authority's, then get French Insurance and i assume also have the vehicle checked for road worthyness.


    Bring in a quantity of cigarettes/alcohol and you're liable for excise duty, are you not?


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    #325
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Bring in a quantity of cigarettes/alcohol and you're liable for excise duty, are you not?

    No you're not, since you paid duty in the country of purchase, as long as it's within the EU you can bring in quite large quantities as long as it's for your own consumption.
    That doesn't stop Irish customs picking on people and trying to bully them out of their fags that they quite rightly brought in by trying to make them believe that they have gone over the duty free limit, which doesn't apply in this case at all, but that's the usual cute hoore antics you'd expect here.
    So, go to Spain once a month with an empty suitcase and bring back a load of fags, as long as they're for you customs can't touch you.
    Bring in a car and you'll get fleeced.
    Better move to Spain altogether, they're just as screwed as we are, but they're cheaper, nicer, it's warmer and the sun is shining.
    WTF am I still doing here?!


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    #326
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,479 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    snaps wrote: »
    I really cant understand why VRT isn't illegal in the views of the EU. I think its very unfair that i cannot buy a car from another EU country, bring it in and re register it here.

    But you can do exactly that, you just have to pay a registration fee to do it.
    I can buy ciggerattes, Alcohol, Electrical equiptment all in the EU and have it delievered/bring it back to Ireland without penalty, so why are cars different?

    You can do exactly that with a car too. BUT if you want to drive it on public roads / in public places you must register it and you must pay VRT. You can keep in and use it on private property all you want without paying.


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    #327
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    snaps wrote: »
    I really cant understand why VRT isn't illegal in the views of the EU. I think its very unfair that i cannot buy a car from another EU country, bring it in and re register it here. I can buy ciggerattes, Alcohol, Electrical equiptment all in the EU and have it delievered/bring it back to Ireland without penalty, so why are cars different?

    If the shoe was on the other foot, bringing a car into another EU country, you dont even have to have the plates changed. France for example allows you to register the EU plates already on it with the french authority's, then get French Insurance and i assume also have the vehicle checked for road worthyness.



    Holland and Denmark are 2 countries that have a system of vrt. and its higher than here.


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    #328
    snaps
    Registered Users Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭snaps


    holland has vrt? how comes cars are cheaper there?


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    #329
    batman1
    Registered Users Posts: 599 ✭✭✭batman1


    What about the car dealers who are keeping their prices high to the cost of the consumer. A lot of dealers are buying cars from NI/UK, pay the VRT and then sell on the car at the price of it's Irish OMSP as set out by the SIMI. To me, that is just wrong. The dealers are crying poverty when people import cars cheaper then buying them here but they are doing it themselves to increase profits and the patriotic consumer pays the price, literally.


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    #330
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    batman1 wrote: »
    What about the car dealers who are keeping their prices high to the cost of the consumer. A lot of dealers are buying cars from NI/UK, pay the VRT and then sell on the car at the price of it's Irish OMSP as set out by the SIMI. To me, that is just wrong. The dealers are crying poverty when people import cars cheaper then buying them here but they are doing it themselves to increase profits and the patriotic consumer pays the price, literally.

    What about them?

    If they can import a car, so can you.
    If they import a car and try and sell it for the same price as an ROI car, and someone's willing to pay that price, then that's what the car is worth.

    Every business revolves around making profit, that's not what's at issue here (imho), this is a thread about VRT rather than "dealer profiteering".


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    #331
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    batman1 wrote: »
    What about the car dealers who are keeping their prices high to the cost of the consumer. A lot of dealers are buying cars from NI/UK, pay the VRT and then sell on the car at the price of it's Irish OMSP as set out by the SIMI. To me, that is just wrong. The dealers are crying poverty when people import cars cheaper then buying them here but they are doing it themselves to increase profits and the patriotic consumer pays the price, literally.
    SIMI don't set the OMSP of cars.


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