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Pope's Pastoral Letter

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭Carry


    j1smithy wrote: »
    1. I often get the impression that these people care nothing for the victims of abuse, 2. but wish to use them to persue their own ideological agenda.

    1. Like the church...?
    2. And you don't?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭j1smithy


    Carry wrote: »
    Like the church...?
    And you don't?

    No I haven't used anyone for my own ideological ends.


  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Blueboyd


    I think the letter was act of a coward and also probably adviced by a legal team not to take any resposibility in fear of legal suits.

    This is however what he himself wrote back in 2001 on May18th as a cardinal

    It must be noted that the criminal action on delicts reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is extinguished by a prescription of 10 years.(11) The prescription runs according to the universal and common law;(12) however, in the delict perpetrated with a minor by a cleric, the prescription begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age.

    In tribunals established by ordinaries or hierarchs, the functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests. When the trial in the tribunal is finished in any fashion, all the acts of the case are to be transmitted ex officio as soon as possible to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

    All tribunals of the Latin church and the Eastern Catholic churches are bound to observe the canons on delicts and penalties, and also on the penal process of both codes respectively, together with the special norms which are transmitted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith for an individual case and which are to be executed entirely.
    Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 330 ✭✭MackDeToaster


    Michaelrsh wrote: »
    This what the Pope said directly to the victims of abuse and their families in the pastoral letter; "...Many of you found that, when you were courageous enough to speak of what happened to you, no one would listen... "

    Wrong, the likes of Brady did listen, and then covered it up, in accordance with canon law and the directives of the pope himself. Where is the direct acknowledgement of this ?

    This letter confirms that Church law is still superior to the law of the land in the mind of the pope and the clergy, an example being Monsignor Dooley (and this was also confirmed by an Opus Dei priest on Sky News today).

    And that is where the problem lies, this is the very nature of the church, that it believes it is the ultimate law, it is god's church, and that is why it can never be trusted.
    That is why the pope refuses to admit his role in this, and the guilt of earlier popes and the entire rotten edifice. He might not even be capable of seeing this fact, but I suspect he is, and that makes their sordid history and this sorry excuse of a letter even more contemptible.

    What has come out in Ireland is only the tip of the iceberg, a full investigation of all dioceses would be most horrifying. We know some of what has happened in the States, stories are now coming out in Germany and even Italy. And these are countries with strong goverments and legal systems, similar stories are just beginning to make news in Brazil, who knows what's been going on in the likes of the Philippines, Africa and the like where standards are far lower, but following the pattern it's not hard to guess.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭Carry


    j1smithy wrote: »
    No I haven't used anyone for my own ideological ends.

    Okay then.
    I don't know about the thread about the burned down church.
    I wouldn't condone any glee about destroying a building. I like churches, castles, palaces and any historic building. They are beautiful. Wouldn't mind to burn down the overprized cardboard-houses though ... but that's another story.

    But you have to acknowledge that there is a lot of anger against the institution of the church in this country. And as long as this anger doesn't aim against those who caused it, it will always be towards their symbols, like actual churches.

    Don't blame those who are angry. Blame those who caused that anger.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    j1smithy wrote: »
    Well you implied that an apology was missing from the letter, but yet clearly hadn't taken the time to even read it.
    Technically, he apologised for the Irish priests. I didn't see any apology for the Church's hierarchy moving paedophiles from parish to parish (and in some cases exporting them out of the country alltogether) in order to avoid prosecution. In fact, I only saw a passing reference to "canonical irregularities" -- a rather limp excuse for addressing the misdeeds done in the name of the primacy of canon law over state law, and there was nothing in there about addressing the ethical conflicts involved.

    In short, it boiled down to "sorry we abused your children, we're going to have a year of whispers on friday and a quick visit by the pope and a bit of a retreat to remind ourselves that we're all holy and that should fix it". Which is a bit much given that us taxpayers, regardless of affiliation status with the church, are the ones paying for the legal bill here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    j1smithy wrote: »
    Its not just the Catholic church that gets the extremists out, on every other issue, from Europe, to republicanism and immigration, you see strong views which simply do non exist among the population at large (shown in polls).

    However the topic at hand, please tell me some of these counter accusations against those who exposed their wrong doings?

    I remember a thread here at the start of the year when St Mels Cathedral was burned down. The apparent joy of some posters, who simply just do not like the church was astounding. I often get the impression that these people care nothing for the victims of abuse, but wish to use them to persue their own ideological agenda.

    I saw this happen on another forum. The person in question is an atheist, he would bring up sexual abuse all the time, bring up abortion and how the church was against, bring up there was no women priests. It was when we were discussing sport and we had a disagreement and he brought up sexual abuse in the Catholic church that I knew he was himself abusing the victims of sexual abuse in the church by using them to knock something he couldn't stand.
    I chose to leave the forum after that, the mods covered it up by deleting what he had said and gave me a five day ban for questioning why they covered it up and why they weren't going to do anything.....some might say it sounds familar....
    So I have no doubt some people, (not saying all) are in themselves using the victims of abuse for their own agenda.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    France 24: Pope issues unprecedented apology.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    I often get the impression that these people care nothing for the victims of abuse, but wish to use them to persue their own ideological agenda.
    Perhaps; but it's hardly fair to say that's only true of those who are critical of the roman catholic church when the pope's letter is more concerned with the ideological stance supporting the primacy of canon law than with the victims of wrongdoing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Min wrote: »
    France 24: Pope issues unprecedented apology.
    That's not quite what it says now:
    Pope conveys 'remorse' over Irish sex abuse crisis, orders probe

    Though to be fair, I think the unfortunate title is down to France24 than to the Church...

    Unfortunate Papal Headline and Ad Placement on France24


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,558 ✭✭✭✭dreamers75




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 330 ✭✭MackDeToaster




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 640 ✭✭✭Michaelrsh


    This what the Pope said directly to the priest who abused;
    You betrayed the trust that was placed in you by innocent young people and their parents, and you must answer for it before Almighty God and before properly constituted tribunals. You have forfeited the esteem of the people of Ireland and brought shame and dishonour upon your confrers. Those of you who are priests violated the sanctity of the sacrament of Holy Orders in which Christ makes himself present in us and in our actions. Together with the immense harm done to victims, great damage has been done to the Church and to the public perception of the priesthood and religious life.

    I urge you to examine your conscience, take responsibity for the sins you have committed, and humbly express your sorrow. Sincere repentance opens the door to God's forgiveness and the grace of true amendment. By offering prayers and penances for those you have wronged, you should seek to atone personally for your actions. Christ's redeeming sacrifice has the power to forgive even the gravest of sins, and to bring forth good from even the most terrible evil. At the same time, God's justice sommons us to give account of out actions and to conceal nothing. Open acknowledge your guilt, submit yourselves to the demands of justice, but do not despair of God's mercy.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    ...but he said bugger all to those that covered things up please note also!
    Said nothing about Brady and co.
    Nothing about those that enforced secrecy from kids or victims under silent church "requests", etc.
    Very convenient silence!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Biggins wrote: »
    ...but he said bugger all to those that covered things up please note also!
    Said nothing about Brady and co.
    Nothing about those that enforced secrecy from kids or victims under silent church "requests", etc.
    Very convenient silence!

    Yeah it is a good thing our courts don't keep things secret and openly name minors in investigations and the family courts are not in secret.
    Sure no one does anything in secret....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 640 ✭✭✭Michaelrsh


    This is what the Pope said directly to the Bishops of Ireland;
    It cannot be denied that some of you and your predecessors failed, at times grievously, to apply long-established norms of canon law to the crime of child abuse. Serious mistakes were made in responding to allegations. I recognize how difficult it was to grasp the extent and complexity of the problem, to obtain reliable information and to make the right decisions in the light of conflicting expert advice. Nevertheless, it must be admitted that grave errors of judgement were made and failures of leadership occurred. All this has seriously undermined your credibility and effectiveness. I appreciate the efforts you have made to remedy past mistakes and to guarantee that they do not happen again. Besides fully implementing the norms of canon law in addressing cases of child abuse, continue to cooperate with the civil authorities in their area of competence. Clearly, religious superiors should do likewise. They too have taken part in recent discussions here in Rome with a view to establishing a clear and consistent approach to these matters. It is imperative that the child safety norms of the Church in Ireland be continually revised and updated and that they be applied fully and impartially in conformity with canon law.

    ...

    I think that the Church should consentrate more on CIVIL + CRIMINAL LAW rather than canon law.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    We are taking about the pope and his letter but lets steer off that subject for non-answering of the opinion put forth and post...
    Min wrote: »
    ...Sure no one does anything in secret....

    Are you SERIOUSLY telling everyone here you believe that!
    * sigh * :(

    Your clearly wearing blinkers or just plain blind to many reports of the clergy cover-ups - even the latest word of people been sworn to secrecy!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Min wrote: »
    Yeah it is a good thing our courts don't keep things secret and openly name minors in investigations and the family courts are not in secret.
    Sure no one does anything in secret....

    The courts are not a private organisation that set out to prevent the law being applied to evil scum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    properly constituted tribunals
    See the letter by the Pope posted on this thread earlier on what he considers to be a properly constituted tribunal - ie. a Canon law tribunal, held in secret; not a court of law, in this country or any other country.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 640 ✭✭✭Michaelrsh


    Sparks wrote: »
    See the letter by the Pope posted on this thread earlier on what he considers to be a properly constituted tribunal - ie. a Canon law tribunal, held in secret; not a court of law, in this country or any other country.

    And I'm guessing that Canon law tribunal can't hand down jail terms, :P.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Whether or not canon law can or cannot use custodial sentences as punishment is almost irrelevant compared to magnitude of the questions of who decides the rules for the court/tribunal; what an accused's rights are; what the victim's rights are and which were violated in the course of the criminal act; what standards of proof are required; who can stand as advocate for the accused and for the plaintiff; how appeals are decided; and so forth.

    Basicly, the question of canon law versus state law is so fundamental that it doesn't come down to who tries a rapist; it comes down even further, to whether it's rape at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    benedict should step down, along with all the heads, these were the ones who were making all the decisions, comitting criminal offences covering up for criminals, accessory to the facts


  • Registered Users Posts: 29 1in4


    My name is Father Federico Lombardi. I am the Director of the Vatican Press Office. I’m here to present a much-awaited document written by the Pope himself.

    It’s his letter to the Catholics of Ireland and regards the sexual abuse committed by some members of the Church in that country.
    I think it’s an honest and courageous letter.
    It communicates the Pope’s sorrow and his personal commitment to do everything he can to heal, repair, and renew.
    He addresses the victims, first and foremost.
    He says how deeply he shares their pain and suffering.
    He understands how victims feel betrayed by trusted representatives of the Church.
    The Pope has met with abuse victims before – in the United States, Australia and Rome – and says he wants to meet others as well.
    He is uncompromising towards those who committed the abuse.
    In the letter he tells them they are accountable to God for their sins, and to the courts for their crimes.
    The Pope insists that abusers face the full force of justice.
    He tells them to do penance and to have faith in Divine Mercy.
    But the Pope doesn’t stop here.
    He speaks to priests and parents, to young people and to all Catholics.
    He encourages us and invites us to a new awareness and responsibility on this matter.
    The Pope also addresses the Bishops. He criticises the mistakes made in protecting and guiding the people entrusted to them.
    He tells the Bishops to apply the Church’s norms strictly in all cases of abuse.
    He also insists they collaborate with civil authorities to ensure that justice is done and that young people are protected.
    The Pope then suggests some concrete spiritual and pastoral initiatives.
    He calls for penance and spiritual renewal.
    When the Pope was in the United States he spoke out strongly on the issue of abuse.
    His words helped the Church there to emerge from a similar crisis and to go forward again with hope and trust.
    It’s important that this letter to the faithful of Ireland does the same thing.
    I hope it becomes the starting point of a new way forward.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Biggins wrote: »
    We are taking about the pope and his letter but lets steer off that subject for non-answering of the opinion put forth and post...



    Are you SERIOUSLY telling everyone here you believe that!
    * sigh * :(

    Your clearly wearing blinkers or just plain blind to many reports of the clergy cover-ups - even the latest word of people been sworn to secrecy!

    But that was only for the church process, it did not stop the parents and children going to the police. This is where the confusion lies.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    The courts are not a private organisation that set out to prevent the law being applied to evil scum.

    Yeah its not like an attorney general in Ireland would leave a file unanswered for months on end regarding a notorious paedophile priest....and then have the same attorney general up for promotion for a senior judicial position.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Min wrote: »
    But that was only for the church process, it did not stop the parents and children going to the police. This is where the confusion lies.
    You know, I know and a lot of people know that when a young child standing in a priests cold office is being told to swear to secrecy, that that child is probably scared out of their darn wits. Especially after what had been done to them, then they had to go and re-tell it all to another. A man that their own parents goes to every Sunday and looks up to in godlike respect!

    Then there is the threat of excommunication to child and adult. We all know the serious influence the church had (and in places and times, still has!) in our country.
    What they said to the public might as well been considered state law as far as the public was concerned under their influence and awe of their power.

    There was no confusion in what the priests did in getting young impressionable kids to swear to secrecy, "don't tell any one or you will burn in hells fires of damnation" - "You shall be excommunicated/removed from the church" or whatever other strong-arm methods they used to silence the experiences of the victims from getting out - and they used many, many (all one has to do is read the already published reports).

    To this day the church as still that much influence alone that so far they have managed to stall completely a fuller nationwide investigation of all the other parishes around the country, where probable mountains of further disgusting acts of betrayal and lies remains buried under the rule of canon law and forced statements sworn to secrecy.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 125 ✭✭ColaBeDamned


    1in4 wrote: »
    My name is Father Federico Lombardi. I am the Director of the Vatican Press Office. I’m here to present a much-awaited document written by the Pope himself.

    It’s his letter to the Catholics of Ireland and regards the sexual abuse committed by some members of the Church in that country.
    I think it’s an honest and courageous letter.
    It communicates the Pope’s sorrow and his personal commitment to do everything he can to heal, repair, and renew.
    He addresses the victims, first and foremost.
    He says how deeply he shares their pain and suffering.
    He understands how victims feel betrayed by trusted representatives of the Church.
    The Pope has met with abuse victims before – in the United States, Australia and Rome – and says he wants to meet others as well.
    He is uncompromising towards those who committed the abuse.
    In the letter he tells them they are accountable to God for their sins, and to the courts for their crimes.
    The Pope insists that abusers face the full force of justice.
    He tells them to do penance and to have faith in Divine Mercy.
    But the Pope doesn’t stop here.
    He speaks to priests and parents, to young people and to all Catholics.
    He encourages us and invites us to a new awareness and responsibility on this matter.
    The Pope also addresses the Bishops. He criticises the mistakes made in protecting and guiding the people entrusted to them.
    He tells the Bishops to apply the Church’s norms strictly in all cases of abuse.
    He also insists they collaborate with civil authorities to ensure that justice is done and that young people are protected.
    The Pope then suggests some concrete spiritual and pastoral initiatives.
    He calls for penance and spiritual renewal.
    When the Pope was in the United States he spoke out strongly on the issue of abuse.
    His words helped the Church there to emerge from a similar crisis and to go forward again with hope and trust.
    It’s important that this letter to the faithful of Ireland does the same thing.
    I hope it becomes the starting point of a new way forward.



    Some questions for you, 1in4 -

    Are you claiming to be Father Federico Lombardi, or have you just copied a statement onto this thread with no link or source for the statement?

    Regarding post #192 on page 13 of this thread, why do you want people to look at a spelling mistake on a marriage course website? How is this relevant to the discussion here?

    You joined Boards.ie the day before the pastoral letter was publicised. Why is your username 1in4? Are you claiming to represent the views of the One in Four organisation in Ireland?


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,872 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    I spent yesterday playing street fighter, you know, important stuff, so the pope's had to wait. Read it all now.

    What I must admit jumped out at me was this:
    Biggins wrote: »
    9. To the children and young people of Ireland...

    14. I now wish to propose to you some concrete initiatives to address the
    situation.
    At the conclusion of my meeting with the Irish bishops, I asked that
    Lent this year be set aside as a time to pray for an outpouring of God’s
    mercy and the Holy Spirit’s gifts of holiness and strength upon the Church
    in your country. I now invite all of you to devote your Friday penances, for a
    period of one year, between now and Easter 2011, to this intention. I ask
    you to offer up your fasting, your prayer, your reading of Scripture and your
    works of mercy in order to obtain the grace of healing and renewal for the
    Church in Ireland. I encourage you to discover anew the sacrament of
    Reconciliation and to avail yourselves more frequently of the transforming
    power of its grace.

    Particular attention should also be given to Eucharistic adoration, and
    in every diocese there should be churches or chapels specifically devoted
    to this purpose. I ask parishes, seminaries, religious houses and
    monasteries to organize periods of Eucharistic adoration, so that all have
    an opportunity to take part. Through intense prayer before the real
    presence of the Lord, you can make reparation for the sins of abuse that
    have done so much harm, at the same time imploring the grace of renewed
    strength and a deeper sense of mission on the part of all bishops, priests,
    religious and lay faithful.

    I am confident that this programme will lead to a rebirth of the Church
    in Ireland in the fullness of God’s own truth, for it is the truth that sets us
    free (cf. Jn 8:32).

    Furthermore, having consulted and prayed about the matter, I intend
    to hold an Apostolic Visitation of certain dioceses in Ireland, as well as
    seminaries and religious congregations. Arrangements for the Visitation,
    which is intended to assist the local Church on her path of renewal, will be
    made in cooperation with the competent offices of the Roman Curia and the
    Irish Episcopal Conference. The details will be announced in due course.

    I also propose that a nationwide Mission be held for all bishops,
    priests and religious. It is my hope that, by drawing on the expertise of
    experienced preachers and retreat-givers from Ireland and from elsewhere,
    and by exploring anew the conciliar documents, the liturgical rites of
    ordination and profession, and recent pontifical teaching, you will come to a
    more profound appreciation of your respective vocations, so as to
    rediscover the roots of your faith in Jesus Christ and to drink deeply from
    the springs of living water that he offers you through his Church.

    In this Year for Priests, I commend to you most particularly the figure
    of Saint John Mary Vianney, who had such a rich understanding of the
    mystery of the priesthood. “The priest”, he wrote, “holds the key to the
    treasures of heaven: it is he who opens the door: he is the steward of the
    good Lord; the administrator of his goods.” The Curé d’Ars understood well
    how greatly blessed a community is when served by a good and holy priest:
    “A good shepherd, a pastor after God’s heart, is the greatest treasure which
    the good Lord can grant to a parish, and one of the most precious gifts of
    divine mercy.” Through the intercession of Saint John Mary Vianney, may
    the priesthood in Ireland be revitalized, and may the whole Church in
    Ireland grow in appreciation for the great gift of the priestly ministry.

    I take this opportunity to thank in anticipation all those who will be
    involved in the work of organizing the Apostolic Visitation and the Mission,
    as well as the many men and women throughout Ireland already working for
    the safety of children in church environments. Since the time when the
    gravity and extent of the problem of child sexual abuse in Catholic
    institutions first began to be fully grasped, the Church has done an
    immense amount of work in many parts of the world in order to address and
    remedy it. While no effort should be spared in improving and updating
    existing procedures, I am encouraged by the fact that the current
    safeguarding practices adopted by local Churches are being seen, in some
    parts of the world, as a model for other institutions to follow.

    I wish to conclude this Letter with a special Prayer for the Church in
    Ireland, which I send to you with the care of a father for his children and
    with the affection of a fellow Christian, scandalized and hurt by what has
    occurred in our beloved Church. As you make use of this prayer in your
    families, parishes and communities, may the Blessed Virgin Mary protect
    and guide each of you to a closer union with her Son, crucified and risen.
    With great affection and unswerving confidence in God’s promises, I
    cordially impart to all of you my Apostolic Blessing as a pledge of strength
    and peace in the Lord.

    From the Vatican, 19 March 2010, on the Solemnity of Saint Joseph

    BENEDICTUS PP. XVI
    PRAYER FOR THE CHURCH IN IRELAND

    You can stay the hell away (pun intended) from any young people in my family until you show me you will actively punish those who used the special status your organisation to ruin the lives of innocents via the local criminal justice system with alacrity and transparancy. I would oppose their interest in your church with an urgency borne of necessity (how can we trust the RCC with the youth when it seems they offer no concrete change at all?) and my own sense of morality, which might not be holy but appears thousands of years in advance of the churches.

    You offer nothing but empty platitudes to a possible sky god who your own priests have probably devastated the belief of in those who are the most important here- the victims.

    Empty words from someone who appears to be an empty man.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,688 ✭✭✭Kasabian


    I have just returned from Mass , I haven't attended mass in a while as I am a lapsed Catholic . Today I was drawn to the church to listen to the pastoral letter and how it was seen my the congregation and more so the local priest ( a good man as best I can tell ).

    Anyway this is what I came away with.
    Some Friar preaching about Jesus forgiving a woman that was about to be stoned for adultery and it being pointed out a couple of times that the Phareses (sic) only condemned the woman and forgetting about the man , as it takes two to commit adultery. Jesus showing mercy being the big point being expressed repeatly.

    I really hope the intention was not to equate this to child molestation in the church , it couldn't could it ?.

    There was then a brief mention of the pastoral letter and how it will be discussed later. This then led to the announcement that the normal mass for Monday evening is cancelled and there will be a special mass to pray for reconsiliation in the church instead.

    I shall not be attending. From here on I shall practise my faith in private and within the range of morals that I believe make a decent human being.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭brummytom


    You know, threads like this always make my heart sink. Not even because of the atheists attacking the church, that's their opinion and they're entitled to it.

    No, what gets me down is that those that claim to be 'defending' the Catholic church do more to damage it that any opponent.


    Oremus, our religion teaches that we 'love our neighbour' that is, to respect their views; not patronise or just blatantly insult them.

    What was done in the past was terrible, and of course every priest/bishop/canon/cardinal who had any part in it should be dealt with by the state; but it should be reiterated that these people aren't Catholc - they're hiding behind the facade of a religious man to hide their evil acts. The majority of the clergy are devoutly religious men; and just as apalled at these acts as anyone else. All the priests I know are great blokes, easy to get along with and genuinely devoted to God.
    Don't let the actions of a minority ruin a church whose members wholly oppose those actions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Biggins wrote: »
    You know, I know and a lot of people know that when a young child standing in a priests cold office is being told to swear to secrecy, that that child is probably scared out of their darn wits. Especially after what had been done to them, then they had to go and re-tell it all to another. A man that their own parents goes to every Sunday and looks up to in godlike respect!

    Then there is the threat of excommunication to child and adult. We all know the serious influence the church had (and in places and times, still has!) in our country.
    What they said to the public might as well been considered state law as far as the public was concerned under their influence and awe of their power.

    There was no confusion in what the priests did in getting young impressionable kids to swear to secrecy, "don't tell any one or you will burn in hells fires of damnation" - "You shall be excommunicated/removed from the church" or whatever other strong-arm methods they used to silence the experiences of the victims from getting out - and they used many, many (all one has to do is read the already published reports).

    To this day the church as still that much influence alone that so far they have managed to stall completely a fuller nationwide investigation of all the other parishes around the country, where probable mountains of further disgusting acts of betrayal and lies remains buried under the rule of canon law and forced statements sworn to secrecy.

    Read the Pastoral letter, it tells the Catholic leaders here and those who abused to everything out into the open.
    As stated at Mass today, it should be done before civil and canon law.

    Anyway it seems you want children named in public rather than keeping it secret.
    People are often sworn to secrecy, the secrecy involved here did not mean the parents and children could not go to the police and that is the most important point.
    There was one victim who said she didn't want the courts involved when she was abused but instead expected the church to deal with it.
    If some wanted the church to deal with it internally then who are any of us to question the process the church used if this is what the parents or victims wanted?
    Why did some of them not go to the police?

    It is said in society (US study) only about 60% report of sexual abuse is reported to the authorities. So it quite believeable some only wanted the church to deal with it than be involved with the law.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,522 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Min wrote: »
    There was one victim who said she didn't want the courts involved when she was abused but instead expected the church to deal with it.
    If some wanted the church to deal with it internally then who are any of us to question the process the church used if this is what the parents or victims wanted?
    .

    These are criminal matters and it is the responsibility of the State to investigate and prosecute. If a crime has been committed it is not correct for a citizen to say, 'no I don't want this dealt with by the state.'

    This is where we run into difficulties in this country. Canon law is irrelevant in cases where there has been a breach of Common law or Statute. It is not for the individual citizen to decide if the law applies in a given situtation.

    SD


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    lonad wrote: »
    I have just returned from Mass , I haven't attended mass in a while as I am a lapsed Catholic . Today I was drawn to the church to listen to the pastoral letter and how it was seen my the congregation and more so the local priest ( a good man as best I can tell ).

    Anyway this is what I came away with.
    Some Friar preaching about Jesus forgiving a woman that was about to be stoned for adultery and it being pointed out a couple of times that the Phareses (sic) only condemned the woman and forgetting about the man , as it takes two to commit adultery. Jesus showing mercy being the big point being expressed repeatly.

    I really hope the intention was not to equate this to child molestation in the church , it couldn't could it ?.

    There was then a brief mention of the pastoral letter and how it will be discussed later. This then led to the announcement that the normal mass for Monday evening is cancelled and there will be a special mass to pray for reconsiliation in the church instead.

    I shall not be attending. From here on I shall practise my faith in private and within the range of morals that I believe make a decent human being.

    The readings and gospel are set out a very long in advance, the gospel about 'he will without sin cast the first stone' has nothing to do with the issuing of the pastoral letter.
    The gospel was even mentioned in the sermon which was all about what was in the pastoral letter.

    The main points of the pastoral letter were read out, a brief copy of it was available and we were told that full copies would be available over the coming week and would be available over the coming weekends, it could be accessed via the internet and it was all discussed enough at mass.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    brummytom wrote: »
    You know, threads like this always make my heart sink. Not even because of the atheists attacking the church, that's their opinion and they're entitled to it.
    'scuse me, just a tic-
    1) Atheists aren't attacking the church. Everyone, including catholics, are attacking the church, because the church raped their children and then sheltered the priests who did the raping so that they couldn't be punished by the state in accordance with the law;
    and 2) Atheists who disagree with the religion of the church are not expressing their opinion, they are professing their faith. Show a little respect, if you would.

    Don't let the actions of a minority ruin a church whose members wholly oppose those actions.
    To be fair, that minority appear to be those who run the church, which complicates matters.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    1in4 wrote: »
    My name is Father Federico Lombardi. I am the Director of the Vatican Press Office. I’m here to present a much-awaited document written by the Pope himself.

    It’s his letter to the Catholics of Ireland and regards the sexual abuse committed by some members of the Church in that country.
    I think it’s an honest and courageous letter.
    It communicates the Pope’s sorrow and his personal commitment to do everything he can to heal, repair, and renew.
    He addresses the victims, first and foremost.
    He says how deeply he shares their pain and suffering.
    He understands how victims feel betrayed by trusted representatives of the Church.
    The Pope has met with abuse victims before – in the United States, Australia and Rome – and says he wants to meet others as well.
    He is uncompromising towards those who committed the abuse.
    In the letter he tells them they are accountable to God for their sins, and to the courts for their crimes.
    The Pope insists that abusers face the full force of justice.
    He tells them to do penance and to have faith in Divine Mercy.
    But the Pope doesn’t stop here.
    He speaks to priests and parents, to young people and to all Catholics.
    He encourages us and invites us to a new awareness and responsibility on this matter.
    The Pope also addresses the Bishops. He criticises the mistakes made in protecting and guiding the people entrusted to them.
    He tells the Bishops to apply the Church’s norms strictly in all cases of abuse.
    He also insists they collaborate with civil authorities to ensure that justice is done and that young people are protected.
    The Pope then suggests some concrete spiritual and pastoral initiatives.
    He calls for penance and spiritual renewal.
    When the Pope was in the United States he spoke out strongly on the issue of abuse.
    His words helped the Church there to emerge from a similar crisis and to go forward again with hope and trust.
    It’s important that this letter to the faithful of Ireland does the same thing.
    I hope it becomes the starting point of a new way forward.

    Please post a source for this "article"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Min wrote: »
    Read the Pastoral letter, it tells the Catholic leaders here and those who abused to everything out into the open.
    As stated at Mass today, it should be done before civil and canon law.
    Re-read the letter. It says no such thing. It says "appropriate tribunals" and was written by the same man who earlier wrote that those tribunals were to be governed by canon law and held under papal secret.
    Anyway it seems you want children named in public rather than keeping it secret.
    People are often sworn to secrecy, the secrecy involved here did not mean the parents and children could not go to the police and that is the most important point.
    What the heck?
    "I swear you to secrecy on the pain of your immortal soul being damned in hellfire for all eternity.... but yeah, go tell the cops and drag his ass in front of an open court, we don't really mean it..."
    :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,688 ✭✭✭Kasabian


    Min wrote: »
    The readings and gospel are set out a very long in advance, the gospel about 'he will without sin cast the first stone' has nothing to do with the issuing of the pastoral letter.
    The gospel was even mentioned in the sermon which was all about what was in the pastoral letter.

    The main points of the pastoral letter were read out, a brief copy of it was available and we were told that full copies would be available over the coming week and would be available over the coming weekends, it could be accessed via the internet and it was all discussed enough at mass.

    You were obviously in a different church to the one I was in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    StudentDad wrote: »
    These are criminal matters and it is the responsibility of the State to investigate and prosecute. If a crime has been committed it is not correct for a citizen to say, 'no I don't want this dealt with by the state.'

    This is where we run into difficulties in this country. Canon law is irrelevant in cases where there has been a breach of Common law or Statute. It is not for the individual citizen to decide if the law applies in a given situtation.

    SD

    I was listening to a debate on this the other evening, it is not illegal to not report a known case of child abuse it seems at present.

    Anyway we have seen in past reports of sex abuse that even some gardai and health workers didn't believe the claims made by some of the victims.
    The truth is a great thing and while great wrong and evil was done to innocent people, everyone is enlightened to what the right approach should be.

    The current problem is people expect the state to have answers for what happened in the church and yet we have 20 dead children who were in state care over the past decade.

    The whole of society needs to change how it deals with children and their safeguards. The concentration is on the church but that is just one area, the laws in this country don't do enough.
    We had one man (just an ordinary citizen) given 4 years for raping children in his neighbourhood in the courts during the past week.

    A few weeks ago we had this:
    A 73-year-old pensioner who engaged in a “persistent regime of depravity” by sexually abusing his neighbours’ two young daughters almost every day for 10 years, was jailed yesterday for seven years with the final year suspended.

    We all want the abusers jailed but the sentences are a sick joke, Ireland needs tougher laws in all areas, maybe having no decent large prison doesn't help.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Sparks wrote: »
    Re-read the letter. It says no such thing. It says "appropriate tribunals" and was written by the same man who earlier wrote that those tribunals were to be governed by canon law and held under papal secret.


    What the heck?
    "I swear you to secrecy on the pain of your immortal soul being damned in hellfire for all eternity.... but yeah, go tell the cops and drag his ass in front of an open court, we don't really mean it..."
    :rolleyes:


    It was said at mass today 'civil law' and it was the priest reading from a set statement, this is what is meant by 'submit yourself to the demands of justice'.
    When people demand justice they are talking of civil law, not canon law.

    No human can condemn anyone to hell so it would be a pretty poor secrecy oath if that was it and from what I heard on the Pat Kenny show, it was similar to the oath taken in a court in that the person had to swear on the bible they would tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and they wouldn't divulge the church processes when it came to investigations.
    None of this condemning to hell crap that some here think it was.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    lonad wrote: »
    You were obviously in a different church to the one I was in.


    Yes but I noticed an error in my reply, the gospel was not mentioned in the sermon which was all about the Pope's letter, I left out a key word in my earlier reply which was a fairly significant one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29 1in4


    Abuse survivors' group welcomes Papal apology.


    An organisation representing many former residents of industrial schools has thanked Pope Benedict XVI for 'his unprecedented apology' to victims of abuse by priests and religious.
    The Pontiff said in his pastoral letter to Irish Catholics that he was 'truly sorry' for the abuse victims and their families suffered in the church's name.

    Irish Survivors of Child Abuse welcomed the Pontiff's commitment to personally intervene in the workings of the Irish church to bring about reform and renewal.

    In a statement, Irish SOCA says it 'represents a highly emotional and long overdue' Papal apology to victims.
    It calls the letter a first step on the road to healing for many who had lost faith in the church.
    (Taken from the NEWSROOM R.T.E.)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 29 1in4


    1in4 wrote: »
    Abuse survivors' group welcomes Papal apology.


    An organisation representing many former residents of industrial schools has thanked Pope Benedict XVI for 'his unprecedented apology' to victims of abuse by priests and religious.
    The Pontiff said in his pastoral letter to Irish Catholics that he was 'truly sorry' for the abuse victims and their families suffered in the church's name.

    Irish Survivors of Child Abuse welcomed the Pontiff's commitment to personally intervene in the workings of the Irish church to bring about reform and renewal.

    In a statement, Irish SOCA says it 'represents a highly emotional and long overdue' Papal apology to victims.
    It calls the letter a first step on the road to healing for many who had lost faith in the church.
    (Taken from the NEWSROOM R.T.E.)

    My own survivors group could do with taking a leaf out of SOCA's measured, reasonable, reflected upon and balanced response. Credit where credit is due.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,916 ✭✭✭RonMexico


    What the Dickens! Why did you just quote yourself?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Min wrote: »
    It was said at mass today 'civil law' and it was the priest reading from a set statement
    Set by whom? We have the papal letter which is the authoritative source of information on what the roman catholic church policy is, pretty much by definition - so who's setting a statement that contradicts this (and contradicts earlier writings by the Pope)?
    When people demand justice they are talking of civil law, not canon law.
    I think perhaps you are being overly generous in your analysis here. The laity certainly have civil law in their minds when talking of justice (if not in quite so refined a point that they're weighing canon law against civil law while considering the long-term raping of children and the equally long-term and systemic sheltering of the offenders); but the laity are not those issuing these statements; and these statements are very hard to take on face value after recent revelations about the church's stance on mental reservation.
    they wouldn't divulge the church processes when it came to investigations.
    The phrase was that they wouldn't breach the confidentiality of the church interviews. Which means that it would be logically and ethically impossible to divulge to a state official or garda officer what you divulged within the church interview without breaking an oath; at which point the priest being accused in court would merely ask if you were breaking the oath you took in the church or the oath you took in the courtroom and your testimony would be thrown into serious doubt.

    This is all assuming, of course, that those who took that oath had no faith in an afterlife and having to go through the Church to reach it. Since that belief is a core one in the roman catholic church, and since at the time of these crimes the church occupied a more central role in Irish life, it's not a simple matter to dismiss the concerns of those swearing the oath regarding the penalties for breaking that oath. After all, if they didn't believe the oaths had any weight, they wouldn't have had any real faith in the church itself (and I distinguish there between faith in the church and faith in the religion itself) -- and they would in all likelihood have sought more direct steps to have the priests responsible punished and the interview would never have taken place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,522 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Min wrote: »
    I was listening to a debate on this the other evening, it is not illegal to not report a known case of child abuse it seems at present ... The current problem is people expect the state to have answers for what happened in the church and yet we have 20 dead children who were in state care over the past decade.

    The whole of society needs to change how it deals with children and their safeguards. The concentration is on the church but that is just one area, the laws in this country don't do enough.

    The problem lies not with the Law. We have perfectly adequate laws - it is the application of said law that is the problem.

    You say, 'society needs to change.' That is the key phrase there. So long as people living in Ireland tolerate corruption in public office and tolerate the actions of a church (or any other body) that ignores the law of the land (for its own self-interest) the cronyism and corruption will continue. In the end it's the citzens of Ireland who are failed by the system.

    How does that phrase go? Justice not only needs to be done, but mainfestly needs to be seen to be done!

    SD


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    StudentDad wrote: »
    You say, 'society needs to change.' That is the key phrase there.
    True, but the key inference is that Irish society has mechanisms to effect that change itself. We're discussing a referendum to guarantee the rights of the child, for example - that's all of us getting a vote on the matter. Flawed and imperfect as that system and its implementation are, they are still about two thousand years of progress ahead of the model used by the catholic church to decide on canon law.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,522 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Sparks wrote: »
    True, but the key inference is that Irish society has mechanisms to effect that change itself. We're discussing a referendum to guarantee the rights of the child, for example - that's all of us getting a vote on the matter. Flawed and imperfect as that system and its implementation are, they are still about two thousand years of progress ahead of the model used by the catholic church to decide on canon law.

    How nice for the Catholic Church - Canon law is irrelevant! It is not for the church to decide what legal responsibilities they like or whether or not they will inform the state of a possible breach of criminal law within their precincts.

    The problem is that we have a church on one side who is as far as I can see is allowed to sort out its problems in house because society and the state are unwilling or unable to deal with the issues raised.

    As regards a referendum the entire Constitution needs to be overhauled and/or scrapped. It's a totally outdated piece of legislation that does not reflect the Ireland of today.

    SD


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    A letter of apology is meaningless, particularly when it comes from an individual who was directly involved in developing the protocols behind covering up child abuse in the first place.

    Personally, I think anyone who at this stage supports the Catholic Church either financially or publicly is either in denial, delusional or immoral.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    1in4 wrote: »
    My own survivors group could do with taking a leaf out of SOCA's measured, reasonable, reflected upon and balanced response. Credit where credit is due.

    I asked you for a link to the article of yours I quoted earlier, if you do not post one you will be banned.

    Last warning.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Min wrote: »
    ...Anyway it seems you want children named in public rather than keeping it secret.
    People are often sworn to secrecy, the secrecy involved here did not mean the parents and children could not go to the police and that is the most important point.
    There was one victim who said she didn't want the courts involved when she was abused but instead expected the church to deal with it.
    If some wanted the church to deal with it internally then who are any of us to question the process the church used if this is what the parents or victims wanted?
    Why did some of them not go to the police?

    It is said in society (US study) only about 60% report of sexual abuse is reported to the authorities. So it quite believeable some only wanted the church to deal with it than be involved with the law.
    I DO NOT want children named and I am absolutely disgusted you suggested that I do!
    I want that remark withdrawn NOW!!! :mad:

    Please stop with this crap "the secrecy involved here did not mean the parents and children could not go to the police"
    THAT WAS THE POINT OF THEM BEING SWORN TO SECRECY BY THE CLERGY!
    Still there has been no apology for that either!

    "Why did some of them not go to the police?"
    Many have stated that answer already in many reports.
    I have stated one reason alone above!

    What happens in the states is a totally different ball game to what happened in Ireland,
    The methods used to silence the people, the level of powerful influence and reach of authority they had!
    That USA rubbish don't wash!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    StudentDad wrote: »
    How nice for the Catholic Church - Canon law is irrelevant! It is not for the church to decide what legal responsibilities they like or whether or not they will inform the state of a possible breach of criminal law within their precincts.
    And there is the core of the outrage for the majority I think. That a priest would rape a child is horrific and enraging; but that the church would decide that its canon law had primacy over state law and that therefore they had the authority to decide how that offender would be prosecuted and punished, that's what raises the larger portion of the outrage here.


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