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Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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    #4742
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Dropping the Mater stop certainly wouldn't be a physical practicality decision as if they can somehow make the SSG > Tara > OCS alignment work then there must be very few, if any, track geometry constraints in regards to curve radius, and even if there were, Mater is still a smooth enough curve from any OCS alignment.

    It would have to be a financial decision then, Mater ditched in order to allow for more underground running or whatever. I wouldn't be opposed to this if they still tunnelled in the correct place for them to be able to add the Mater station in the future - presuming that the cost savings would be due to the lack of excavation rather than the tunnelling (which would be probably the same length either way).


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    #4743
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Still bloody at surface at Ballymun according to this

    That's still the 2015 "indicative only" map. Ignore it.


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    #4744
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    MJohnston wrote: »
    That's still the 2015 "indicative only" map. Ignore it.

    Phew , I'll go be outraged some where else for now ;)


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    #4745
    orangerhyme
    Registered Users Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    I really don't see the point of the luas going from OCS to STG in the future once the Metro is done, particularly if there's a stop at Tara st.

    We will still be car and bus dependent in 20/30 years and the roads it blocks are too important.

    It doesn't seem useful and will have better, duplicated infrastructure underneath it.

    I'd prefer to use the road space for bus lanes and segregated cycle lanes and perhaps widening footpaths etc


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    #4746
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Dropping the Mater stop certainly wouldn't be a physical practicality decision as if they can somehow make the SSG > Tara > OCS alignment work then there must be very few, if any, track geometry constraints in regards to curve radius, and even if there were, Mater is still a smooth enough curve from any OCS alignment.
    My belief is that the tunnel entrance will be as far south as Milltown. If they are aiming for Tara st>OCS>Mater>Drumcondra aligment then it is more likely that a south city centre station will be somewhere like Earlsfort Terrace or Merrion Sq West.
    This avoids a big backwards-C shaped loop that would be SSG>Tara st>OCS. Merrion Square also has several thousand office workers in the south docklands within spitting distance.


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    #4747
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,133 ✭✭✭plodder


    Looking at the map above reminded me that the original MN design had the Drumcondra stop located a bit away from the present railway station. I hope they don't repeat that mistake.


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    #4748
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    plodder wrote: »
    Looking at the map above reminded me that the original MN design had the Drumcondra stop located a bit away from the present railway station. I hope they don't repeat that mistake.

    It was gonna be in the grounds of the Bishops Palace.

    Connecting midway between the 2 railway lines and having a station on the other line in the future would open up a swathe of connectivity options in the future.


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    #4749
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,133 ✭✭✭plodder


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    It was gonna be in the grounds of the Bishops Palace.

    Connecting midway between the 2 railway lines and having a station on the other line in the future would open up a swathe of connectivity options in the future.
    Actually I'm wrong. The original plan was to put it right at the IR station. I'm not sure when it got moved.


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    #4750
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    orangerhyme wrote: »
    I really don't see the point of the luas going from OCS to STG in the future once the Metro is done, particularly if there's a stop at Tara st.

    We will still be car and bus dependent in 20/30 years and the roads it blocks are too important.

    It doesn't seem useful and will have better, duplicated infrastructure underneath it.

    I'd prefer to use the road space for bus lanes and segregated cycle lanes and perhaps widening footpaths etc

    The Luas will still have a have the purpose of serving areas on the Northside such as Phibsboro, Cabra and with an extension to Finglas it will still get plenty of usuage. When the Metro is completed it will take buses off the roads in the city as buses some routes could be scaled back or cancelled which run between areas served by the Metro and the CC others could terminate at interchanges with the Metro instead of going all the way into the CC. Others can be reduced due to the Luas being extended to Finglas.

    If a Metro was to be built cars would not have any place in the CC there simply won't be any excuses to drive in to the CC after the Metro is built.


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    #4751
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Lets not forget that by the time Metro opens there will hopefully be more development along the new Luas Cross City line corridor which will boost the numbers along the route.

    Hopefully DART Underground is progressed and there will be significant heavy rail expansion along the Maynooth line too.

    It would be ideal then if the Dublin Industrial Estate were made an SDZ and the relatively low density developments there relocated. You would then have a large brownfield site with full access to DART and Luas (with Metro connection) services.


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    #4752
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    marno21 wrote: »
    Lets not forget that by the time Metro opens there will hopefully be more development along the new Luas Cross City line corridor which will boost the numbers along the route.

    Hopefully DART Underground is progressed and there will be significant heavy rail expansion along the Maynooth line too.

    It would be ideal then if the Dublin Industrial Estate were made an SDZ and the relatively low density developments there relocated. You would then have a large brownfield site with full access to DART and Luas (with Metro connection) services.
    It would certainly take advantage of the capacity of Luas north of Parnell Square and I'd like it to happen ASAP. It would further strengthen the case for Dart Expansion too. I don't really see where Metro Link features in that area's plans though?


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    #4753
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    lucernarian wrote: »
    It would certainly take advantage of the capacity of Luas north of Parnell Square and I'd like it to happen ASAP. It would further strengthen the case for Dart Expansion too. I don't really see where Metro Link features in that area's plans though?

    Marno is saying the Luas in that area would have connections with Metro (via OCS).


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    #4754
    orangerhyme
    Registered Users Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    The Luas will still have a have the purpose of serving areas on the Northside such as Phibsboro, Cabra and with an extension to Finglas it will still get plenty of usuage. When the Metro is completed it will take buses off the roads in the city as buses some routes could be scaled back or cancelled which run between areas served by the Metro and the CC others could terminate at interchanges with the Metro instead of going all the way into the CC. Others can be reduced due to the Luas being extended to Finglas.

    If a Metro was to be built cars would not have any place in the CC there simply won't be any excuses to drive in to the CC after the Metro is built.

    Yeah but the Metro will follow the same route. I dont see the point.
    People coming from Broombridge etc can just change at OCS.


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    #4755
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    orangerhyme wrote: »
    Yeah but the Metro will follow the same route. I dont see the point.
    People coming from Broombridge etc can just change at OCS.

    That's all well and good but a bit of a pain in the arse for a short journey. I support the concept of changing modes of transport where practical but not to only go a short journey such as O'Connell Street to SSG one stop. It makes sense for longer journies or where changing is quicker than staying on the one mode of transport.


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    #4756
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    orangerhyme wrote: »
    Yeah but the Metro will follow the same route. I dont see the point.
    People coming from Broombridge etc can just change at OCS.

    You asked this before and I responded but you might have missed it:

    The city centre portion of the Luas Green Line that will briefly parallel the Metro line will be useful and is not a duplication.

    You suggested College Green as a location for an intermediate Metro station, but as I pointed out then College Green is unsuitable for a Metro station because excavation so close to Trinity would be exceptionally expensive and time consuming, this has been discussed a fair amount already over the years. And you can't go further east or west because then track curvature would be too extreme. I'd be surprised if we see anything more than Mater, OCS, and SSG as stations inside the canals.

    Thus, we're back to the question - is having intermediate stations like Trinity, Westmoreland, Dawson, Harcourt, and potentially Charlemont worth retaining the Luas city centre line for? My answer would be absolutely, yes.


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    #4757
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,363 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The success of Metrolink will be its rapid transit rather than dropping you outside your destination. Leap fares have to be adjusted to make transfer zero cost and the last few kms free so Luas takes on the short hop role.


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    #4758
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,071 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Does anyone know the proposed size of the p+r for the swords end of the metro?
    Just wondering how many cars it can take off the m1 at peak time.
    Also does anyone know how many cars use the m1 per hour at peak time.
    My reasons for asking is to see if the p+r will be sized to significantly reduce the cars on the m1 or if the planners will just put in a token p+r that'll only house a couple of hundred cars.


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    #4759
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,235 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Does anyone know the proposed size of the p+r for the swords end of the metro?
    Just wondering how many cars it can take off the m1 at peak time.
    Also does anyone know how many cars use the m1 per hour at peak time.
    My reasons for asking is to see if the p+r will be sized to significantly reduce the cars on the m1 or if the planners will just put in a token p+r that'll only house a couple of hundred cars.

    No plans revealed yet, should be in the next two or three months apparently.


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    #4760
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Does anyone know the proposed size of the p+r for the swords end of the metro?
    Just wondering how many cars it can take off the m1 at peak time.
    Also does anyone know how many cars use the m1 per hour at peak time.
    My reasons for asking is to see if the p+r will be sized to significantly reduce the cars on the m1 or if the planners will just put in a token p+r that'll only house a couple of hundred cars.
    TII are just inferring it'll be as big as they can make it as they want to "hoover" as many cars off the M1 as possible. Widening the M1 is not an option so this is a huge opportunity to remove as much traffic as possible from the M1.

    M1 traffic figures are available at https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/ - different counters and you can play around with it to get any data you want.

    I think there will be a lot of organic traffic reductions on the M1 - Swords commuters and commuters from the airport area using the Metro simply because it's a better option than driving. At present, a Swords to Sandyford/Dundrum or even the area around SSG is difficult with public transport but Metro proper streamlines it.


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    #4761
    orangerhyme
    Registered Users Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    MJohnston wrote: »
    You asked this before and I responded but you might have missed it:

    The city centre portion of the Luas Green Line that will briefly parallel the Metro line will be useful and is not a duplication.

    You suggested College Green as a location for an intermediate Metro station, but as I pointed out then College Green is unsuitable for a Metro station because excavation so close to Trinity would be exceptionally expensive and time consuming, this has been discussed a fair amount already over the years. And you can't go further east or west because then track curvature would be too extreme. I'd be surprised if we see anything more than Mater, OCS, and SSG as stations inside the canals.

    Thus, we're back to the question - is having intermediate stations like Trinity, Westmoreland, Dawson, Harcourt, and potentially Charlemont worth retaining the Luas city centre line for? My answer would be absolutely, yes.

    Revealed today that they plan to have a station at Tara st to connect with the DART, so to me that makes the luas green line from OCS to STG superfluous and it makes your point about College green being expensive irrelevant. So the Trinity and Dawson st stops, which I propose dropping, would be well within walking distance.
    I think it makes complete sense. Use the space for proper segregated cycle lanes, bus lanes, wider footpaths rather than duplicating infrastructure.


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    #4762
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    orangerhyme wrote: »
    Revealed today that they plan to have a station at Tara st to connect with the DART, so to me that makes the luas green line from OCS to STG superfluous and it makes your point about College green being expensive irrelevant. So the Trinity and Dawson st stops, which I propose dropping, would be well within walking distance.
    I think it makes complete sense. Use the space for proper segregated cycle lanes, bus lanes, wider footpaths rather than duplicating infrastructure.

    Given that a green line tie would reasonably take place in and around Charlemont, and that the station is now muted to be at SSG East, the Green line would still be very useful between Charlemont and O'CS.


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    #4763
    orangerhyme
    Registered Users Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Given that a green line tie would reasonably take place in and around Charlemont, and that the station is now muted to be at SSG East, the Green line would still be very useful between Charlemont and O'CS.

    We'll see what happens. We don't know enough details yet to really debate this point.
    But if there's metro stations at Ranelagh - Harcourt- STG - Tara st - OCS, then the luas green line from OCS to STG is superfluous and using up valuable road/street space.


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    #4764
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    orangerhyme wrote: »
    We'll see what happens. We don't know enough details yet to really debate this point.
    But if there's metro stations at Ranelagh - Harcourt- STG - Tara st - OCS, then the luas green line from OCS to STG is superfluous and using up valuable road/street space.

    However the road space will be a lot less urgent with the Metro though, potentially 20,000pph in each direction. Cycling along the tracks is actually a doddle. The issue as you say is that the footpaths are at a crush capacity at lunch and peak times.


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    #4765
    orangerhyme
    Registered Users Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    donvito99 wrote: »
    However the road space will be a lot less urgent with the Metro though, potentially 20,000pph in each direction. Cycling along the tracks is actually a doddle. The issue as you say is that the footpaths are at a crush capacity at lunch and peak times.

    It's been well reported the difficulties cyclists are facing on the tracks. Look, we'll just see what happens in 10 years time if the metro is built but Dublin will still be car and bus dependent.


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    #4766
    Synode
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,967 ✭✭✭Synode


    orangerhyme wrote: »
    It's been well reported the difficulties cyclists are facing on the tracks. Look, we'll just see what happens in 10 years time if the metro is built but Dublin will still be car and bus dependent.

    I drive a car to the city every time I need to go there. But if there was a decent metro line to South West Dublin I would get the metro every time. It's a no brainer. The City is not big enough for cars. We need to model ourselves on Amsterdam which is a joy to walk around and get around. Its public transport is excellent and they prioritise it, together with bikes over cars


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    #4767
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    orangerhyme wrote: »
    donvito99 wrote: »
    However the road space will be a lot less urgent with the Metro though, potentially 20,000pph in each direction. Cycling along the tracks is actually a doddle. The issue as you say is that the footpaths are at a crush capacity at lunch and peak times.

    It's been well reported the difficulties cyclists are facing on the tracks. Look, we'll just see what happens in 10 years time if the metro is built but Dublin will still be car and bus dependent.
    I don't think it's necessary at present to be car/bus dependent in the area of college green.

    Without taxis and most bus services, Luas carries lots of people quietly and - to pedestrians and other road users - predictably through the area. If east west traffic were to cease entirely, the whole area could reasonably be treated as pedestrian priority with trams transiting the area seamlessly as they do in Manchester and other continental cities.

    Supposing the green line becomes metro, and the incoming longer trams go over to an improved red line (or other future Luas alignment), more conventionally sized trams with more frequent stops could be deployed in the city centre. I still feel that a possible charlemont - broombridge (on to finglas) will be an important and in-demand corridor in its own right ignoring metro. For that reason I can't see infrastructure being torn up or infilled in ten years time. Like the green line, it will be repurposed.


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    #4768
    orangerhyme
    Registered Users Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    donvito99 wrote: »
    I don't think it's necessary at present to be car/bus dependent in the area of college green.

    Without taxis and most bus services, Luas carries lots of people quietly and - to pedestrians and other road users - predictably through the area. If east west traffic were to cease entirely, the whole area could reasonably be treated as pedestrian priority with trams transiting the area seamlessly as they do in Manchester and other continental cities.

    Supposing the green line becomes metro, and the incoming longer trams go over to an improved red line (or other future Luas alignment), more conventionally sized trams with more frequent stops could be deployed in the city centre. I still feel that a possible charlemont - broombridge (on to finglas) will be an important and in-demand corridor in its own right ignoring metro. For that reason I can't see infrastructure being torn up or infilled in ten years time. Like the green line, it will be repurposed.

    The luas blocks the quays which will still be congested in 10/20 years, particularly if they want a Liffey cycle route.
    As far as college green, I'm not so sure, especially with plans for College green plaza, which requires bus traffic to be routed down the quays, which is again impacted by the luas.
    So whichever way you look at it, the luas from STG to OCG is using up valuable road space which could be better used whether by buses, bikes, pedestrians or cars.


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    #4769
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    orangerhyme wrote: »
    donvito99 wrote: »
    I don't think it's necessary at present to be car/bus dependent in the area of college green.

    Without taxis and most bus services, Luas carries lots of people quietly and - to pedestrians and other road users - predictably through the area. If east west traffic were to cease entirely, the whole area could reasonably be treated as pedestrian priority with trams transiting the area seamlessly as they do in Manchester and other continental cities.

    Supposing the green line becomes metro, and the incoming longer trams go over to an improved red line (or other future Luas alignment), more conventionally sized trams with more frequent stops could be deployed in the city centre. I still feel that a possible charlemont - broombridge (on to finglas) will be an important and in-demand corridor in its own right ignoring metro. For that reason I can't see infrastructure being torn up or infilled in ten years time. Like the green line, it will be repurposed.


    So whichever way you look at it, the luas from STG to OCG is using up valuable road space which could be better used whether by buses, bikes, pedestrians or cars.

    Clearly the road space is valuable - hence cars were banned from college green at peak. Reallocating space to cars is like getting rid of a bedroom in your house upon the birth of another kid.


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    #4770
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    orangerhyme wrote: »
    We'll see what happens. We don't know enough details yet to really debate this point.
    orangerhyme wrote: »
    Look, we'll just see what happens in 10 years time if the metro is built but Dublin will still be car and bus dependent.

    You're literally the only person bringing up this point about removing the city centre Luas tracks.


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    #4771
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    orangerhyme wrote: »
    Revealed today that they plan to have a station at Tara st to connect with the DART, so to me that makes the luas green line from OCS to STG superfluous and it makes your point about College green being expensive irrelevant. So the Trinity and Dawson st stops, which I propose dropping, would be well within walking distance.
    I think it makes complete sense. Use the space for proper segregated cycle lanes, bus lanes, wider footpaths rather than duplicating infrastructure.

    The Tara Street thing was a tabloid rumour, and I believe the rumour didn't even say there would be a station there, just that it would interlink with the DART there (which it could still do with an OCS Lower station). I'll believe it when I see it where that's concerned - I'm skeptical because the curve from Tara to OCS would be very extreme.

    Still, even if they have OCS, Tara, and SSG, that's still not as useful as the current range of Green Line stops. I mean, the extension of your argument is why do they bother to keep those Luas stops open now, after all you could just walk from the current OCS or SSG stops?

    Final thing I'll say about this is - if you get rid of the Green Line south of OCS, where do you turnback the trams? Well, you'd have to keep going as far as Trinity, so you may as well keep that stop, and Westmoreland. Oh, but there's no track alignment there to allow for turning back north again, so I guess we'll have to insert one on College Green...no wait, that's a disastrous idea...okay, then we put it on the next logical spot...oh wait, that's after the Dawson Street stops...well, I guess we're only a few hundred metres from the existing turnbacks on SSG at that point, so....well, I guess there's not much chance of doing that then.

    The only place north of the Liffey that you could decapitate the Green Line and have it still work (without of course having to dig up the city again to lay some more new tracks) is Dominick Street, which is a terrible idea.

    All this for what?


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