Restoring a 3-bed-semi....various costs please??

Dinarius · 11-05-2005 7:32am #1

My wife and I are currently bidding on a 1950's three bed semi in South Dublin which has had nothing done to it since the day it was built. It's an executor's sale and there is even a cream coloured bakelite telephone on the hall table!

Anyway, a lot of work will need to be done and I'd be grateful for ballpark figures on a few essentials..........

1. Rewiring: What should I allow for this? I would provide all switches/sockets/phone points/TV points and fuse board. So, I would only need the installation, wiring, replastering etc...

Is plastering a seperate job?

Also, I read somewhere that if one is rewiring a house, one should install CAT 5 cabling. What is this and what does it do?

2. Conversion to gas and installation of gas central heating. I would need everything supplied and installed.

I have been told that the radiators need to be the right size (in terms of output) for each room. Otherwise the room will be too cold or the system will use too much gas. How does one calculate the right size per room?

Is there any Dublin based supplier of those beautiful old cast iron radiators that I remember from my shcool days? ;-)

3. Replumbing: I'm not sure if this will be required, but just in case it is, what should I budget?

4. Flooring: I know of plenty of suppliers/fitters of wooden flooring. We've used them in our present home. But, I've since discovered that buying flooring directly is cheaper, if you can find someone to fit it afterwards. Is it easy to find a fitter? Where might I look?

5. Windows and doors. I love the look of Rationel, but they're not cheap, to put it mildly. Yet, everyone seems to be using them. Are they really that good? Are they the only option?

Has anyone used http://www.swedex.ie/index.html or Harmon Vinduer http://www.h-v.ie/ or http://www.marvin-architectural.com/ ???

6. Attic conversion: What should I budget? What are the planning issues, if any? Do I need planning to install a velux in the roof?

I would be grateful for any answers.

Many thanks.

D.

MorningStar · 11-05-2005 9:48am

1) Unless you have some major special deal an electrician can probably get sockets,switches etc... cheaper. Most electricans can get all the additional people like plasters, carpet layers etc... Taking the house as a standrad 3 bed i woulld say €8k-€15k it really depends on number of sockets. Cat 5 is for a computer network that can also be used for a phone too. If you don't know what it is you probably don't need one I put it in and don't use it much.

2)A new central heating system is about €4-5K

3)Plumbing probably doesn't need to be done. You can either by reproduction rads or by reclaimed one look up salvage yards

4)Cheaper? Again any trades man can buy the stuff cheaper than you. They sometimes don't pass it on but you choose the supplier and any pro will put it in

5) Don't know nothing.

6)Being vague it can cost anything up €30k it really depends on finish. Roof windows have to be at the back or you need planning. It can't be classed as a habitable room unless the ceiling height and floor space is right. Access to the attic is also pretty important too and I think you need a fire exit option when putting in a third floor. You need to check your dimmensions against the regs which are on-line but can't remember the link.

A lot of Irish property built in the 50's used Irish pine which wasn't treated great and tends to have wood worm. A surveyor should be able to tell you if the property is right and if you can do what you want.

Overall it sounds like a huge job that y ou would want to get a contractor in to do the whole lot. If you source the materials you can make sure you get a good deal and it is passed to you. Without seeing the place I'd guess €60k-€80k.

I hope that helps

lomb · 11-05-2005 10:00am

i doubt u will save anything by bidding on a crap house except stamp duty. people actually pay more for these than they are worth due to wishing to put a stamp on it. also there are tradesmen around who bid them up.

rooferPete · 11-05-2005 10:27am

Hi Dinarius,

With respect to the reply from Morning Star the question you have asked is about equal to "How long is a piece of string".

While I have said before "I don't do cheap" I was not joking, it's from the customer who who bought the cheap job is where I make a good living.

I would recommend that you find a professional you feel comfortable with and can trust, it is important that the person knows what you are hoping to do with a property.

The average cost for such services can range from €500 > €1,000.00 sometimes more depending on the property and the format the report is to take, for example an on site verbal survey can take about four hours, if the survey is to be a detailed written and accuratly costed product you are in the upper scale.

Really it comes down to "You get what you pay for".

For example a 1970's house rewired, re-plumbed, central heating, porch, windows and doors came in the order of €45,000.00, the windows and doors pvc, there was no attic conversion and still items like a garage and garden shed to built.

On this particular project the contractor was not making any profit and some of the sub-contractors were as near to cost as possible.

In an auction situation many of the basics are not highlighted by the autioneers, it is there job to make sure all the buyers have enough funds to get their client the highest price, they are not your advisors.

You appear to have a good idea of what you want my advice is do your best to eliminate the surprise costs that can rise very sharply in the renovation of an old property.

A 1950's property can have a lot of surprises waiting when the work starts, even for the professionals.

MorningStar · 11-05-2005 11:50am

rooferPete wrote:

With respect to the reply from Morning Star the question you have asked is about equal to "How long is a piece of string".

Really good point I should have said that first. You can save money on a house that needs work but generally only if you can do the work yourself. It's also an absolute pain living in a house while work is going on.

Rubens · 11-05-2005 3:43pm

Dinarius

If you are buying as a property devloper to resell you must go the pessimistic route and assume that this property will cost about 100k to renovate. If its in a desirable area you could make a generous profit.

Do the maths using the 100k renovation figure is my advice and make the decision...

RJ

Dinarius · 11-05-2005 6:45pm

Phew!

Firstly, many thanks for the comprehensive and (very) speedy replies. I am very grateful.

I may have mislead you in my description of the house. It's not as bad as all that. It's habitable - indeed it's currently being lived in - but, we would really want to give it a good makeover and, even if the surveyor says that a rewiring isnt' necessary, we'll do it anyway. We need lots of sockets (home office, heavily computerised etc..etc..) and what is currently there is totally inadequate. Of course, if the surveyor says, "Don't touch it!", then we're out.

I can get all the electrical at cost and I'm a fussy so and so, so I will only want installed what I have chosen myself. e.g. I would want the continental type of wall switch where there entire facia is the rocker switch and not just a fiddly button in the middle of the plate, which for reasons I can never understand we still use here.

We will not be buying to resell, but to live in. But, we're in the lucky position of not having to sell our current home, so we don't have to live on a building site.

After wiring, flooring and central heating, the work is largely decorative. We could live with the existing windows - they're fairly recent white pvc double glazing - but, we would change them eventually. Ditto the attic conversion.

Our medium term plan would be to extend at the back of the house...but, that's for later.

My main concern is the heating and rewiring and if 20-25k will cover those, then that's fine.

Any other advice gratefully accepted! ;-)

D.

FX Meister · 11-05-2005 7:00pm

In regards to the wiring of the house, if it's not been touched since it was built you will need it rewired. Most electrical points have a standard boc onto which many different types of switches can be put on. Cat 5 has four twisted pairs of copper wires. It's used for telephone and can be used for a network aswell. If you are rewiring then you might aswell get cat 5 put it, it will be used more in the future and would be a pain in the ass install after. Get your TV points put in by the electrician too.

As for the heating, the plumber will be able to tell you what size rads to use. Remember that gas may not be in your area and might not be an option. You can get those old rads, saw them in Green MEP Patricia McKennas house last week when I went to view it.

Dinarius · 11-05-2005 7:11pm

FX Meister wrote:

Remember that gas may not be in your area and might not be an option.

It is. I already checked that.

You can get those old rads, saw them in Green MEP Patricia McKennas house last week when I went to view it.

Love to know where she bought them!

Many thanks.

D.

FX Meister · 11-05-2005 8:08pm

I wouldn't have a clue where she bought them. But there is a plumbers suppliers near doyles corner in Cabra. You can view pictures of the house here http://www1.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=232175&p=14&rt=search&searchlist=
Guide of €550,000 but I haven't heard how much it went for yet. There was another house on the same road that sold last week. It was in need of total refurb, guide of €280,000 and went for €402,000

smileygal · 11-05-2005 9:32pm

Re antique radiators:

Can't vouch for them as haven't been a customer, but it might help:

http://www.salvoweb.com/Ireland-Rep./CoDublin/victorian-salvage-and-joinery-co-ltd-x2754/

http://www.salvoweb.com/Ireland-Rep./CoDublin/directory.html

or try around Francis St - if there aren't any there, there should be someone who knows.

FX Meister · 11-05-2005 10:21pm

I would say they are expensive smileygal. You can get new ones that just look old though.

MorningStar · 12-05-2005 2:05pm

It's a nice house but looks like it is a lot older than the 1950's did you mean 1850's?

At that kind of age you can get some nasty surprises. Just make sure you got a full surveyor as opposed to a quick one. THey are really prone to roof and foundation problems. You do get all the nice features so it can be worth it but maintainence is generally more expensive.

You probably will need a good plaster as it might be lime plaster.

To keep your features the electrics and heating will be a bit more expensive to get put in. The money (20-25) you are talking about sounds OK and it looks like you could even get the odd original radiators for that.

I love the house and it is similar to something I lived in before. If you haven't lived in something similar you might not be aware of some things. They are both difficult and expensive to heat. Lots of draughts everywhere and you will never seal them all. The high ceilings are also a problem. If you have to go to the toilet late at night that is a distance to go especially if you have been out .

smileygal · 12-05-2005 5:59pm

FX Meister wrote:

I would say they are expensive smileygal. You can get new ones that just look old though.

tbh i would prefer new ones that look old(should be more efficientand trustworthy) and save the desire for authenticity for some other fab object

Dinarius · 12-05-2005 6:08pm

MorningStar wrote:

It's a nice house but looks like it is a lot older than the 1950's did you mean 1850's?

Think you may have your wires crossed a bit here. ;-)

I am considering a 1950's 3-bed-semi.

The link to the Victorian house was posted by someone simply to illustrate some old radaitors in situ.

D.

MorningStar · 13-05-2005 11:22am

Dinarius wrote:

Think you may have your wires crossed a bit here. ;-)

I am considering a 1950's 3-bed-semi.

The link to the Victorian house was posted by someone simply to illustrate some old radaitors in situ.

D.

Indeed I did d'oh!

Any link for the house you are looking at?

Dinarius · 13-05-2005 4:36pm

Not until, or unless, I buy it!

For obvious reasons! This market is competitive enough.

D.

mad m · 13-05-2005 4:45pm

Dinarius wrote:

Not until, or unless, I buy it!

For obvious reasons! This market is competitive enough.

D.

Haha was thinking same thing.How much is the house in question?

Dinarius · 13-05-2005 4:50pm

I think it will go over 800k.

D.

mad m · 13-05-2005 5:14pm

Dinarius wrote:

I think it will go over 800k.

D.

Jesus! Abolish the Stamp Duty!!!!

Goodluck in getting it...

Dont forget the painting costs also....

lomb · 13-05-2005 5:16pm

Dinarius wrote:

I think it will go over 800k.

D.

thats fookin crazy money for a 3 bed semi in crap order. budget 100 to fix it is my advice. for that kind of money u can buy a dream home on 4 acres in saggart with total views of dublin out to the bay. also stamp duty is 9% so budget another 80 grand in taxes......

rooferPete · 13-05-2005 5:27pm

Hi lomb,

In a previous life I was associated with the property business, then as today the three L's were what mattered when buying or selling

Location, Location, Location.

lomb · 13-05-2005 5:31pm

i would have thought saggart wasnt a bad place seeing as it is on city wests back. in time the saggart one will appreciate at a far greater rate simply because those houses are unique. 4 acres of land,2000 sq foot, dream views of dublin and 3 miles to the M50 or a run down kip semi d in urban dublin. i think i know which i would chose if in the enviable position (hopefully someday soon-thats the plan) but i dont have kids

rooferPete · 13-05-2005 5:44pm

Hi Lomb,

Saggart is a beautiful spot, I would recommend you go up there and walk around on an evening with a light breeze though, I have worked there and it can be very cold outside the big windows

That said I would have no problem with Saggart as my address, I think you have just described €1.5 mill on a lucky day ?

lomb · 13-05-2005 5:55pm

rooferPete wrote:

That said I would have no problem with Saggart as my address, I think you have just described €1.5 mill on a lucky day ?

nope, 975000

the land is mostly in pasture on an elevation, but is a lovely home, about 1 million and 50 grand inc all taxes about 50000 euro a year mortgaged.

lomb · 13-05-2005 6:04pm

rooferPete wrote:

Hi Lomb,

Saggart is a beautiful spot, I would recommend you go up there and walk around on an evening with a light breeze though, I have worked there and it can be very cold outside the big windows

i have walked up there and seen the house and i LIKE it, although u are right the wind when it blows will really be chilly. still adds character

overall thats a far better buy for someone without kids although there is a bus stop 50 yards away and its a short hop to the LUAS also.

FX Meister · 13-05-2005 10:13pm

FX Meister wrote:

I wouldn't have a clue where she bought them. But there is a plumbers suppliers near doyles corner in Cabra. You can view pictures of the house here http://www1.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=232175&p=14&rt=search&searchlist=
Guide of €550,000 but I haven't heard how much it went for yet. There was another house on the same road that sold last week. It was in need of total refurb, guide of €280,000 and went for €402,000

This was withdrawn and put on the market again with a new guide of €650,000. Crazy money for a two bed house with the only bathroom right at the back of the house, through the kitchen and utility room.

lomb · 13-05-2005 10:52pm

FX Meister wrote:

This was withdrawn and put on the market again with a new guide of €650,000. Crazy money for a two bed house with the only bathroom right at the back of the house, through the kitchen and utility room.

lunatic money for a pit isnt it! and i dont even think its a 'good location' id value that at 350-400, not 650. as i say saggart is looking good

the problem is they are going on a 'per sq foot' basis now. desirable properties are easily getting 600 euro a sqare foot. thing is no one is factoring the value of seclusion, land, views, and class.

if u bought that house u would be sucking diesel fumes all day, u could hear ur neigbours, front garden would be non existant, parking the car well thats a problem! 650 for that no thanks, its amazing that that is the going rate. truely amazing......

mad m · 13-05-2005 11:19pm

lomb wrote:

lunatic money for a pit isnt it! and i dont even think its a 'good location' id value that at 350-400, not 650. as i say saggart is looking good

the problem is they are going on a 'per sq foot' basis now. desirable properties are easily getting 600 euro a sqare foot. thing is no one is factoring the value of seclusion, land, views, and class.

if u bought that house u would be sucking diesel fumes all day, u could hear ur neigbours, front garden would be non existant, parking the car well thats a problem! 650 for that no thanks, its amazing that that is the going rate. truely amazing......

Yeah i agree,but we all know that someone will buy that house.I had a nice 3bed semi in Ballycullen.Worked on the site for 7years and all i did was fall out of bed and out front door and i was in work.

But we still moved,my wife and i gave up the house with toilet downstairs and ensuite plus an extra room to now where we live which is terraced.And i havent looked back since.Moved back to area i grew up in.Schools are nearer and the area is much more settled.

Mad money....Abolish stamp duty!!!!

rooferPete · 13-05-2005 11:24pm

Hi lomb,

That sounds like a nice home and investment, all areas are going to become more valuable depending on the access to public transport, so a bus almost outside the door and the Luas nearby will have an impact on the re-sale in the next ten years or so.

The Drumcondra house is crazy at that price, but it's also deceiving the new open plan and walk into town is making those properties very valuable especially amoung the double income no kids group.

Personally I wouldn't dream of paying anymore than €350,000.00 and the only reason I would go that high (in theory) is because the area is quiet.

.

FX Meister · 14-05-2005 2:54pm

It is a quiet area Lomb, parking isn't a problem and it's close to bus routes and to town. As for Saggart, I wouldn't live there for any money you could offer. Terrible traffic problems that are only going to get worse with all the developments serviced by that stretch of road.

Restoring a 3-bed-semi....various costs please??

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