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New minister for Education?

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  • 03-06-2014 8:21am
    #1
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭


    Dont take this personally Mr Quinn but you are 68. You were first appointed to cabinet in 1986. You have been a disaster at this job.

    Anyway-who will get his job? What effect will this have on new Jc? If labour get the ministry (likely) then will his successor feel pressure to continue Jc policy or modify it?
    I think its well to remember that Batt O'Keefe (FF) started this JC ball rolling. Its Not solely a quinn policy.


«1345

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    #2
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Hopefully we'll get a new minister who'll realise that the new JC is a disaster waiting to happen and abolish it. I have no problem with the junior cert being changed provided it's done in a sensible way on a sensible timeline. The current proposals are neither.
    Old Batt might have had a better idea for all we know but sadly, you'd imagine any labour minister will feel obliged to do most if not all of what Quinn wants to do so I expect no progress if we get a new minister.


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    #3
    teacherhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 666 ✭✭✭teacherhead


    Batts started it. The ncca looked at it and made recommendations. Quinn decided to go ignore the ncca advice and go his own way.

    he made it very clear that the decision was a political one.


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    #4
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,415 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    So bets on new minister??? Sherlock would seem likely or McCarthy?
    can't see Conway getting anywhere, sure she said she doesn't want to be a minister


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    #5
    linguist
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    My few cent on this one. Firstly, I believe our new minister will be Aodhán Ó Riordán. I suspect that's the name that many teachers would hope for. However, we must bear in mind that just because the Minister may be a teacher or former teacher, they are not necessarily on our side. Ó Riordán has been on the right side though particularly regarding DEIS schools and special needs cuts.

    To the broader issues, Quinn is dead meat. Therefore, now is the time for the unions to twist the knife slowly and certainly not strengthen his hand at the last minute. In the upcoming 'talks', prevarication should be the name of the game. You do not do deals with a lame duck minister who won't be there to see them through. Even if he suddenly comes out offering us everything we want with sugar on top, my advice would be to stall matters until we know who the new incumbent is. Then, we should start off on a positive footing with the new minister.

    Regarding what we can hope for in the months ahead, this is what I foresee:

    - There will be concessions on external moderation but to what extent? Last year, 25% of LC higher Biology appeals were successful. So that's what happens within a tight, heavily supervised team of examiners! That's why the new JCSA cannot uphold standards as it is currently framed and that's the kind of statistic the unions need to wave in the Minister's face.
    - It's clear that we're facing into a fairly easy education budget. There might even be concessions. I don't expect an overall reduction in the PTR at post-primary but I think the guidance issue is front and centre now. At the very least, I think DEIS schools will get an ex-quota allocation back and maybe even all state schools. Everyone in the guidance sector needs to push like mad!
    - The new circular on SNAs and its dark threats to pretty much remove them in post-primary cannot stand and teachers need to show solidarity to our SNA colleagues and of course the pupils and their parents.


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    #6
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    Great post above. One Problem a new Minister faces is that getting rid of Jc exams-saves money. Quinn is on record as saying that is a key motivation.

    We have 3 options
    One hold firm-we wont assess our own pupils. New minister gives in but we have reformed curriculum.
    Option 2 -We give in and accept a few extra A posts and external moderation.
    Option 3-a stand off. ie we teach new curriculum. We dont assess. Minister (whoever) allows Existing Jc to disappear. School exams de facto become only form of assessment kids get. No meetings to co-ordinate or moderation meetings. I heard this could happen from a senior ASTI person. Not very likely I think.
    The real threat is not a new Minister. Its Not Pat king. Its the spineless members.


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    #7
    linguist
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    Totally agree that it cannot be an either or as regards curriculum versus assessment. My nightmare scenario - and it's not too far fetched - is that we end up teaching the kids next to nothing as regards content because we want them to become autonomous learners and then spend the month of May reading through drivel about 'how they feel' about it!

    However, when we start talking business hopefully with the new minister, we need to do so in good faith. We've been saying all along that we are not opposed to curricular reform and we should not be opposed to new modes of assessment per se. What we are opposed to in principle is examining our own students for certification.

    I hate to say this, but if the Government wants to push through a load of crap by way of a new curriculum, it's not our fault and the problems will soon be clear to everyone. If, on the other hand, you refuse to play ball in giving your students an easy time at the end of third year and the Principal is trying to massage standards, that's where you could be in a tricky situation - particularly if you're not permanent. Thus, the biggest battle for teachers is to get our way on assessment as much as possible.


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    #8
    killbillvol2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭killbillvol2


    linguist wrote: »
    My few cent on this one. Firstly, I believe our new minister will be Aodhán Ó Riordán. I suspect that's the name that many teachers would hope for. However, we must bear in mind that just because the Minister may be a teacher or former teacher, they are not necessarily on our side. Ó Riordán has been on the right side though particularly regarding DEIS schools and special needs cuts.

    To the broader issues, Quinn is dead meat. Therefore, now is the time for the unions to twist the knife slowly and certainly not strengthen his hand at the last minute. In the upcoming 'talks', prevarication should be the name of the game. You do not do deals with a lame duck minister who won't be there to see them through. Even if he suddenly comes out offering us everything we want with sugar on top, my advice would be to stall matters until we know who the new incumbent is. Then, we should start off on a positive footing with the new minister.

    Regarding what we can hope for in the months ahead, this is what I foresee:

    - There will be concessions on external moderation but to what extent? Last year, 25% of LC higher Biology appeals were successful. So that's what happens within a tight, heavily supervised team of examiners! That's why the new JCSA cannot uphold standards as it is currently framed and that's the kind of statistic the unions need to wave in the Minister's face.
    - It's clear that we're facing into a fairly easy education budget. There might even be concessions. I don't expect an overall reduction in the PTR at post-primary but I think the guidance issue is front and centre now. At the very least, I think DEIS schools will get an ex-quota allocation back and maybe even all state schools. Everyone in the guidance sector needs to push like mad!
    - The new circular on SNAs and its dark threats to pretty much remove them in post-primary cannot stand and teachers need to show solidarity to our SNA colleagues and of course the pupils and their parents.

    Let's be clear here - nobody in this government has been "on the right side" regarding education. O Riordain and the other mouths in Labour only kicked up when there was a backlash against the cuts.


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    #9
    f3232
    Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭f3232


    linguist wrote: »
    My few cent on this one. Firstly, I believe our new minister will be Aodhán Ó Riordán. I suspect that's the name that many teachers would hope for. However, we must bear in mind that just because the Minister may be a teacher or former teacher, they are not necessarily on our side. Ó Riordán has been on the right side though particularly regarding DEIS schools and special needs cuts.

    I saw this guy on the TV recently saying that what we need is an "ideological debate" in education. After 100 years of Catholic ideology in education this guy is calling for more "ideology". From my reading of his master plan, he would close smaller secondary schools and have large US style secular school model. I can only see job losses and a secular ideological crusade


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    #10
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    The unions must go in and basically operate a policy of obstruction to Quinn.

    Quinn knows he's losing his job and now suddenly he's inviting the unions in to discuss their concerns. He didn't give a toss about the concerns of anyone (NCCA, teachers, parents, pupils) when he felt his job was secure so he's now looking to compromise and appear to be statesmanlike as his job is on the line. His attitude at the conferences this year oozed arrogance and contempt.

    Consequently the unions must make no deal with Quinn and wait for the new minister.


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    #11
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Peter Flynt wrote: »
    The unions must go in and basically operate a policy of obstruction to Quinn.

    Quinn knows he's losing his job and now suddenly he's inviting the unions in to discuss their concerns. He didn't give a toss about the concerns of anyone (NCCA, teachers, parents, pupils) when he felt his job was secure so he's now looking to compromise and appear to be statesmanlike as his job is on the line. His attitude at the conferences this year oozed arrogance and contempt.

    Consequently the unions must make no deal with Quinn and wait for the new minister.

    I get the feeling that he'll be gone too, although given the fact that he doesn't give a toss then he'll probably just plough on as normal with this 'epic legacy', then if he's replaced he'll just toss the keys on his table and walk away. And we all know what the interviews will be like in years to come with Miariam O' Calaghan or whoever..

    Miriam: So Ruairi, you had a brilliant vision and you never got to see it out.
    Ruairi: Yes, and I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those pesky teachers....sneer..

    The unions shouldn't touch any negotiations until a minister is sorted out. Anyone know if there is there any mutterings in Union circles on a hiatus in talks?


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    #12
    linguist
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    No, the unions are basically saying they'll talk. I suppose they have to but once in there they can make him squirm. They've the upper hand now.

    Just on those who've taken issue with my observations on Ó Riordán, I've no axe to grind for him one way or another. We're going to get a new minister, (s)he will almost certainly be from Labour and having a (former) teacher appointed would be a reasonably good outcome after the last three incumbents. It would be a bit hard for him to have opposed some of the cuts had they not been announced for goodness sake and of course he had an eye on public opinion - he's a politician!

    The fact is that he's someone who has run a DEIS primary school and is regarded as having a reasonably strong social conscience. People can wish all they want for somebody with good Fightback credentials but since that's not going to happen we're better off hoping for somebody who's done our job. I agree that Sean Sherlock mightn't be too bad either.


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    #13
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    linguist wrote: »
    No, the unions are basically saying they'll talk. I suppose they have to but once in there they can make him squirm. They've the upper hand now.

    Just on those who've taken issue with my observations on Ó Riordán, I've no axe to grind for him one way or another. We're going to get a new minister, (s)he will almost certainly be from Labour and having a (former) teacher appointed would be a reasonably good outcome after the last three incumbents. It would be a bit hard for him to have opposed some of the cuts had they not been announced for goodness sake and of course he had an eye on public opinion - he's a politician!

    The fact is that he's someone who has run a DEIS primary school and is regarded as having a reasonably strong social conscience. People can wish all they want for somebody with good Fightback credentials but since that's not going to happen we're better off hoping for somebody who's done our job. I agree that Sean Sherlock mightn't be too bad either.

    Then again, having listening to Sean Sherlock his brief has been to integrate science/research in 3rd level and industry, which is all well and good. But, will he look at the Secondary/Primary system and try to shoehorn the students to make them fit for industry... so it's either STEM or nothing.


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    #14
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,138 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Then again, having listening to Sean Sherlock his brief has been to integrate science/research in 3rd level and industry, which is all well and good. But, will he look at the Secondary/Primary system and try to shoehorn the students to make them fit for industry... so it's either STEM or nothing.

    I was wondering was he trying to break the record for the number of quangos mentioned in one interview.


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    #15
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    spurious wrote: »
    I was wondering was he trying to break the record for the number of quangos mentioned in one interview.

    Heard him on prime time debate talking about grade inflation...He relished in telling us how many Hundreds of millions of citizens money he is pumping into 'partnerships' with private industries. Its easy to sell tenners for a fiver.

    Still though , I.d be willing to wait and see if his disdain for the teaching profession approaches any where near Ruairi's.

    The link to the prime time debate on grade inflation is in the second paragraph here. The article itself is from Brian Lucy who has often spoken about misconceptions surrounding education which is always a good read.


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    #16
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    God allmighty Sherlock Sounds worse. Whatever happened to the labour party being social democratic? Though perhaps he would be ideal in that he would be quickly seen for what he is . The asti and TUI need to up their game. Your typical spinless teacher needs a prescription for a pair of balls or the women need thatchers blood cells injected. This time I don't think we will have a fifth column . Plus it's not a public sector issue as such.


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    #17
    Wicklowleaid
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭Wicklowleaid


    In simple answer to your question if I were to guess I would say Alan Kelly. Most likely the next deputy leader of labour and will warrant one of the high profile ministries I would see education being a front runner for him.


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    #18
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    Wicklowleaid wrote: »
    In simple answer to your question if I were to guess I would say Alan Kelly. Most likely the next deputy leader of labour and will warrant one of the high profile ministries I would see education being a front runner for him.

    Any idea what he is like? Does he have any views on Education?


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    #19
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    I think Alan Kelly will be it or Kathleen Lynch. We have only until July 8th before Quinn goes!


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    #20
    SM746
    Closed Accounts Posts: 414 ✭✭SM746


    What are the chances of Alex White if he fails to win the leadership contest?


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    #21
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    A lot depends on how well Alex White does in contest. If he does poorly-then he might be left on Junior Ranks. Also depends on if Reilly gets moved and if there is an exchange of ministries. I think an FG minister of education might not be bad because he or she would not feel as much pressure to pick up Quinn's smelly baton than a labour minister.


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    #22
    Rocket_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭Rocket_Man


    Labour will have 3 new Ministers after the reshuffle. Most likely these will be Kelly, White and Lynch. So if they decide to hold the Education portfolio then we can expect to see one of these in the role. White would be my guess at this stage.


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    #23
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    Rocket_Man wrote: »
    Labour will have 3 new Ministers after the reshuffle. Most likely these will be Kelly, White and Lynch. So if they decide to hold the Education portfolio then we can expect to see one of these in the role. White would be my guess at this stage.

    I dont know how any of them would act to be honest. Alex strikes me as a bit of a bull ****ter -just like Quinn-ie throwing out initiatives weekly. Im not sure about the other two. I wonder if the penny has dropped with Labour that Quinn has alienated teachers-a key support group? I doubt it. They still think they have a chance with all the middle class. If I was them-I would hug my key support and hope for 10%.


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    #24
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Lately I'm wondering if its such a dead cert that Quinn is going. I mean they are hardly going to sack him in his twilight hour, and where would they move him too also?

    I think they will leave him where he is, education is getting like the Angola/HSE lately, a poisened chalice. From a party political perspective quinn has carried out the function. Dont mess up publicly, throw a few shapes, talk about reform , save some money, make teachers look bad, 'deal with' religion and fee paying schools.

    If its optics they want then why not let Ruairi while away his last few months , any new incumbant and you would be taking a big risk for your party.


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    #25
    Rocket_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭Rocket_Man


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Lately I'm wondering if its such a dead cert that Quinn is going. I mean they are hardly going to sack him in his twilight hour, and where would they move him too also?

    I think they will leave him where he is, education is getting like the Angola/HSE lately, a poisened chalice. From a party political perspective quinn has carried out the function. Dont mess up publicly, throw a few shapes, talk about reform , save some money, make teachers look bad, 'deal with' religion and fee paying schools.

    If its optics they want then why not let Ruairi while away his last few months , any new incumbant and you would be taking a big risk for your party.

    No chance. Himself, Gilmore & Rabbitte will all be dropped. Joan will need to give the party a new look.


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    #26
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Whatever happened Fergus O'Dowd, who was Fine Gael opposition spokesperson on education immediately before the last election? He's the Louth TD, brother of Niall O'Dowd, and fluent in Irish with very strong family connections to Ard na Caithne/Baile an Fheirtéaraigh.

    I sensed Brian Hayes was trying to muscle in on his remit before the same election and something happened to keep him very quiet since.


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    #27
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    There's a very simple reason why Quinn is definitely going - He's 68.

    You can hardly be claiming to be a new leader brining in change and youth whilst keeping a 68 year old in Cabinet who served in Cabinet in 1983 - 31 years ago.

    It's allegedly believed that Gilmore didn't want to appoint him in 2011. . and that Quinn allegedly threw a strop and went demanding a cabinet position when he found out.


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    #28
    Pinkycharm
    Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭Pinkycharm


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    Any idea what he is like? Does he have any views on Education?

    He's not very popular in his home town lets just say. His wife is a primary school teacher and is unemployed.

    I don't think he can offer much to education considering the way he entered the government was through health- he was elected because he based his campaign on saving the local hospital, which he quickly forgot about once he got in.

    Personally, I would think education to be doomed, if he was in charge. He has burned lots of bridges around here anyways.

    I know him extremely well and would be in his circle. Empty promises.


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    #29
    PinkCat86
    Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭PinkCat86


    will he really retire? I think he will stay in Labour!


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    #30
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    Quinn is gone. I would offer you any amount of money to prove that. Main argument he entered cabinet in 1986. He only got in this time because he was a close associate of Gilmores . To be honest it will matter how much more crap Teachers will swallow rather than who sits in the ministerial chair.ie either we stick to the principle of not correcting our own pupils or we dont. I think at the moment the odds are on teachers accepting a "compromise". If they do that we will be in Uk territory educationally within 5 years and without the funding.


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    #31
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    PinkCat86 wrote: »
    will he really retire? I think he will stay in Labour!

    He might contest his seat again alright. But he might not win it. Labour will be lucky to get 10% . They are fooling themselves by making shapes at middle class. They have made up their minds. Look at Labour 1992-floating voter never forgave them for sleeping with FF . Didnt matter when they switched to FG 1995.


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