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It is announced that Ireland WILL hold referendum on EU fiscal compact treaty

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    Tora Bora wrote: »
    The Shinners, are gonna need a sh1t load of ink:D:D

    Dont you get a free pen at polling station


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,136 ✭✭✭flanzer


    I've heard the government are hiring Robert Mugabe as the special advisor to this campaign


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Biggins wrote: »
    Aaa... ok!

    So what exactly IS he signing?
    Is he signing for permission to sign later?
    His signing the treaty is just indicating that it is government policy to ratify. Enda Kenny signing a document doesn't automatically alter Irish law. Even without a referendum, it would still have required a Dail vote before it becomes law.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    smash wrote: »
    I see it as pretty cowardly though. Like most of what he's done.
    I know.
    If he had ruled out a referendum, you would see it as cowardly too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭skelliser


    time to start buying dollars!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭Simi


    Just make the question a double negative, therefore voting no becomes a yes vote. Simples :-)

    Any new eu referendum no matter what the subject matter is going to incur a resounding no vote at this stage. The majority of people won't know what they're voting against, they'll just vote no for the sake of voting no.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭bijapos


    dvpower wrote: »
    This could actually be a very brave move by Enda Kenny. I expect some sweeteners in the run up to the referendum in the form of better terms on the promissory notes.

    Its not Kennys choice as to whether a referendum is held or not, its a constitutional matter which is above any elected politician or government. Either way he should use this to get us out of the stranglehold we are in, its a golden opportunity, lets hope he uses it.


    Sad to say that in his Dail speech he fired the first bullsh1t salvo in what is going to be the usual pile of tosh from both sides. Looks like I'll have to get the treaty off the web and read it myself.
    “Ratification on this treaty will be another important step in the rebuilding of Ireland’s economy,” the Taoiseach said.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 256 ✭✭Statistician


    Amazing how people already know how they will be voting No despite not knowing the question.

    I don't need to know the question. I will simply be voting the opposite way that the government wants me to.

    As far as I'm concerned, the government is now my enemy. It is us and them.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Bambi wrote: »
    I would have presumed constitutional protocol would preclude the plank from jumping the gun like that. Although it wouldn't suprise me if he chanced his arm anyway, ze germans can be very persuasive. The interesting thing is that if he did sign us up and then the amendment was defeated by referendum I would expect Kenny to have to resign as taoiseach.

    He would have to!

    Signing up to something too early - then having to do a complete reversal in front of the whole of Europe (if the result is a "NO" vote), not just Ireland would be a MASSIVE humiliation for not just him but for the country additionally?

    Ratifying it later or not, the fact that he's already signing us into the treaty this Friday, is like jumping on a bus and then later half way through the journey, then tell the driver(s) "Sorry, I now have to go back! I shouldn't have got on in the first place!"


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    It's a bit like "you can pick any colour,but it has to be yellow".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Pacifist Pigeon


    If we vote 'no' and are forced to vote again until there's a 'yes' vote, surely it'll prove to people that there is a problem with our modern democracy. I mean Nice, Lisbon and possibly this too? What more proof do people need to get to understand that we need a revolution.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    If we do send back a no vote, what are the implications?

    The implications of a NO vote means that we go back and start again, from scratch with our sovereignty in tact.

    The implications of a YES vote means we never again have any say over our economic sovereignty.

    VOTE NO! We may have nothing, but at least we can rebuild and not have other countries implementing taxes on us.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    bijapos wrote: »
    Its not Kennys choice as to whether a referendum is held or not, its a constitutional matter which is above any elected politician or government.
    Yes it is. He is free to accept or reject the advise of the AG


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭Nothingbetter2d


    flanzer wrote: »
    I've heard the government are hiring Robert Mugabe as the special advisor to this campaign

    nope he was too expensive.... damn germans forcing budget cuts on us.

    our government are still waiting for the royalites payout from the prince of nigeria arrive. only then can we afford mugabe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    I don't need to know the question. I will simply be voting the opposite way that the government wants me to.

    And this is why referenda are a waste of fucking time.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    dvpower wrote: »
    I know.
    If he had ruled out a referendum, you would see it as cowardly too.

    Well I see it as cowardly that he is like a lap dog doing everything he's told, at the detriment of the people he's supposed to be representing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    _Gawd_ wrote: »
    The implications of a NO vote means that we go back and start again, from scratch with our sovereignty in tact.
    But would the bailout be intact?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Tora Bora


    No to Household Charges:D
    No to Septic Tank Charges:D
    Nobody givs a fcuk about the Fiscal Compact:cool:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    You lot better vote yes

    I voted no last time and spent the last three years in a European army and my family were working for 1.74 an hour and glad to get it :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,855 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    maybe put posters up saying, So Europe what can you give us:D

    Or just rejoin the commonwealth and have a united Ireland.

    Imagine the faces on Sinn Fein then. Well you told us to vote NO:D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    smash wrote: »
    Well I see it as cowardly that he is like a lap dog doing everything he's told, at the detriment of the people he's supposed to be representing.
    You think he is being told to run a referendum by outsiders?
    You think holding a referendum is to the detriment of the people?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 256 ✭✭Statistician


    And this is why referenda are a waste of fucking time.

    All Irish elections are a waste of time.

    umm - who will I vote for this time... FG or FF.... Doh!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    dvpower wrote: »
    But would the bailout be intact?

    The bailout is nothing more than daylight robbery.

    Private risk - public debt - slavery for everyone!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    dvpower wrote: »
    You think he is being told to run a referendum by outsiders?
    You think holding a referendum is to the detriment of the people?

    No, I'm talking about signing this Friday.
    dvpower wrote: »
    But would the bailout be intact?

    Well the bondholders still want their money and we're still part of the Euro, so yes it would!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭COYW


    Vote 'Yes' first time round, if you don't fancy having to go back to the polls again and again.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    dvpower wrote: »
    His signing the treaty is just indicating that it is government policy to ratify. Enda Kenny signing a document doesn't automatically alter Irish law. Even without a referendum, it would still have required a Dail vote before it becomes law.

    Surely if he is actually signing something, this alone has legal implications at European level?
    I get what you are saying about ratifying later - but thats a closing process of something that we have already signed up to?

    Enda Kenny signing a document doesn't automatically alter Irish law but it does in European terms legally state that we are signed up to something - when in fact despite this legal (European level) promise to see something through, we might have to further at European legal level, revoke ourselves?
    This could further turn the whole process into a right legal mess thats all!

    I would suggest the best course of action is that he sign nothing till the public's wishes has become clear and he THEN has a clear mandate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    _Gawd_ wrote: »
    The bailout is nothing more than daylight robbery.

    Private risk - public debt - slavery for everyone!
    But would it be intact following a No vote?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 502 ✭✭✭Lollers


    The vote will be put to the people. Twice maybe, until like Lisbon, the public vote the way the government wants.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    COYW wrote: »
    Vote 'Yes' first time round, if you don't fancy having to go back to the polls again and again.

    Just goes to prove Democracy DOES NOT WORK.

    Dictatorships have armies and violence.

    Democracies have propaganda.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭Nothingbetter2d


    lets all get giant oars and sit on the coastline to row ireland further away from the eu and it's mess.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    dvpower wrote: »
    But would it be intact following a No vote?

    It wouldn't be intact if we didn't have the money to pay it back.

    We don't, of course but these scumbags we elect see it in their interest to pander to the Euro Elites and Corporations. They'll bleed you dry for the multi-billionaires.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    All Irish elections are a waste of time.

    umm - who will I vote for this time... FG or FF.... Doh!

    Aye, Heaven forbid people might actually live up to the responsibility that comes with living in a democracy and be an informed voter - shure, it's too much like hard work when lazy populist platitudes are so easy to repeat verbatim.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    _Gawd_ wrote: »
    It wouldn't be intact if we didn't have the money to pay it back.
    So do you see this as also indirectly a referendum on the bailout?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    _Gawd_ wrote: »
    Just goes to prove Democracy DOES NOT WORK.

    Dictatorships have armies and violence.

    Democracies have propaganda.

    *cough*

    North Korea?
    China?
    Etc... ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Vote yes - We'll have to keep our budget balanced and we'll be allowed access to the ESM fund.
    Vote no - Our governments can still spend us into oblivion and there'll be no European help.


    Given how everyone has been giving out about how irresponsible our politicians were and are I don't see why those same people would encourage a "No" vote.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 256 ✭✭Statistician


    Aye, Heaven forbid people might actually live up to the responsibility that comes with living in a democracy and be an informed voter - shure, it's too much like hard work when lazy populist platitudes are so easy to repeat verbatim.

    Yes, and that is exactly the problem. You have just shown why Irish Democracy is a farce.
    In Ireland, people vote like this (in this order):

    1. Whatever party their family votes for.
    2. Who they think is going to win. (everyone likes to back a winner)
    3. Who fixes the most pot holes

    Consider that Ireland is a one party state (FF/FG), and you begin to realise the whole process is a sham.
    (For the last general election, I read vast chunks of the various manifestos and then spoiled my vote)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    Love how eurosceptic Ireland be, now it costs money


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    If we vote 'no' and are forced to vote again until there's a 'yes' vote, surely it'll prove to people that there is a problem with our modern democracy. I mean Nice, Lisbon and possibly this too? What more proof do people need to get to understand that we need a revolution.

    Do you know what this one is about? If we vote no then other European countries can go on without us.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    dvpower wrote: »
    So do you see this as also indirectly a referendum on the bailout?

    That will be entirely up to the Irish people whether or not to pay it back, not of course that we would have any say in a discussion but mass civil disobedience may turn some heads. I don't exactly see this as an indirect vote on the bailouts - they'll get it out of you one way or another. Europe wants more integration as if it wasn't totalitarian enough already. We're slipping back into this authoritarianism we tried so desperately to escape and fought against.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Biggins wrote: »
    Surely if he is actually signing something, this alone has legal implications at European level?
    Why would he sign something that has legal standing knowing that there is a referendum pending on the issue?
    Biggins wrote: »
    Enda Kenny signing a document doesn't automatically alter Irish law but it does in European terms legally state that we are signed up to something - when in fact despite this legal (European level) promise to see something through, we might have to further at European legal level, revoke ourselves?
    This could further turn the whole process into a right legal mess thats all!
    You're knowledge of European law is clearly superior to mine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    Yes, and that is exactly the problem. You have just shown why Irish Democracy is a farce.
    In Ireland, people vote like this (in this order):

    1. Whatever party their family votes for.
    2. Who they think is going to win. (everyone likes to back a winner)
    3. Who fixes the most pot holes

    Consider that Ireland is a one party state (FF/FG), and you begin to realise the whole process is a sham.
    (For the last general election, I read vast chunks of the various manifestos and then spoiled my vote)

    You're not really in a position to lament it when you've already admitted that you're part of the problem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,342 ✭✭✭✭That_Guy


    "Yiz can vote lads but make sure it's a yes vote or we'll have to do it all over again... Come on. Don't be a dickhead about it"


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    Biggins wrote: »
    *cough*

    North Korea?
    China?
    Etc... ?

    China and North Korea have armies and threaten violence. They don't need propaganda as their only weapon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    dvpower wrote: »
    But would it be intact following a No vote?

    We wouldn't be able to get any more money after March 2013 apparently.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,112 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Tora Bora wrote: »
    The Shinners, are gonna need a sh1t load of ink:D:D

    I don't like your tone.:(






    :pac:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭patwicklow


    You must pay for ze vater, you must pay ze taxes, and you must pay ze bondholders so that our banks dont collapse, you must obey ze orders at all times.....YOU VOTE NO YOU VILL BE MADE TO VOTE AGAIN OBEY ZE ORDERS..


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    _Gawd_ wrote: »
    China and North Korea have armies and threaten violence. They don't need propaganda as their only weapon.

    They don't need it - but by heavens, they use it too - BIG time!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    We wouldn't be able to get any more money after March 2013 apparently.
    Project Mayhem!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭luckyfrank


    no no no

    never
    never
    never


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    dvpower wrote: »
    Why would he sign something that has legal standing knowing that there is a referendum pending on the issue?

    Thats a very good question!
    Thats honestly my point.
    dvpower wrote: »
    You're knowledge of European law is clearly superior to mine.
    Part from what I have studied (personal, tort, business and contract law) and part from common sense.

    I'm not arguing with yourself in particular dvpower or what you say.
    I just have questions and see somethings right away from contractual basis. :)


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