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Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish culture
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ezra_pound wrote: »OK then. Tyre hypothesis which you are defending is fundamentally flawed.
so are you saying that zoroastrian mythology/religion is the same as greek mythology/religion? who is yima in greek mythology? are there varas in greek mythology? is there a bhujyu? is there a bahitra? i would seriously like to know if there is because i missed it and its my job not to miss such things.
i think i would take a look at the material culture of the two entities before i said it was all fundamentally flawed. the irish did some unique things. the central europeans did the same unique things just a bit earlier and after an interlude did them again.
and there is the problem of these genetics
looks like most of the irish are from central europe to me.0 -
Hi Ezra
Finally managed to turn the internet on here. Just one comment to your comment. The vedic culture came to India from Europe and from Central Europe to that. The Indians themselves say that the foreigners from the west brought vedas. Those foreigners were R1a people who developed their culture in central europe before they brought it to india. Latest genetic research proves this beyond any doubt. So your "indo" europeans are actually central europeans who still live in central europe and call themselves slavs (r1a). This changes things quite a bit and requires reevaluation of all the cultural and linguistic links, because cultural center was in central europe and it radiated from there in all directions.
You talk about similarities between indian and irish cultures. Books were written about similarities of serbian and indian customs and serbian and sanscrit languages. I don't want to go into it now it is not my area of interest but there are many people who claim that for instance slavic mitology and vedic mythology are curiously similar. That old slavic astronomy is increadibly precise and contains descriptions of phenomena only discovered by physicists in last few years. Certain hittite customs are described on hittite tablets are still practiced in eastern serbia....Goddess Dana also exists in Slavic mythology and is triple star goddess to that...
This is not "indo european" wide thing. This is very specifically concentrated in central Europe, among slavs and as you say in Ireland. I would rally like you to start a thread on similarities between the irish and indian cultures. we would all learn a lot and i would be first to subscribe to the thread.
but just because you find similarities between irish and indian culture, and because there are similarities between other cultures, this does not mean that similarities and links between european cultures mean nothing and are just signs that we are all indo europeans.
I have no idea how much you have read of this thread but i did not use wider common cultural and language traits. I used very peculiar similarities which seem to only occur in Ireland and Central Europe. There is a link that goes back to neolithic times but there are later links from bronze age and iron age and early medieval time and i have only just scratched the surface. Look at crannogs for instance. Look at gords and ring forts. No one built them but western slavs and irish. why? None of it was explored by anyone that i know so far. I am here giving you all the data i have gathered and some of my hypothesis based on that data. People can do what ever they want with it. Ignore it, rubbish it, use it for your own research. I think there is a lot of material there that opens a lot of questions that require better answers then just "we are all indo europeans" particularly because there is no such thing as indo european.
One last thing. Ezra you say:The stem budh appears in all the Celtic languages, as it does in Sanskrit, as meaning "all victorious," "gift of teaching," "accomplished," "enlightened," "exalted" and so on. The names of the famous Celtic queen Boudicca, of ancient Britain (1st century ce), and of Jim Bowie (1796-1836), of the Texas Alamo fame, contain the same root. Buddha is the past participle of the same Sanskrit word--"one who is enlightened.
For your information in serbian we have these words:
bi, biti - to be
budi - be, exist, be present
budan - be awake, awaken one
Buddha - the one who is, who is present in now, who is awaken.
all the above meanings of the word bud and buda are secondary to the original meaning which exists in serbian and which means to be, to be present in now, to be awaken. This is the whole essence of Buddhism (the school of awakening) summed up in one root word.
to all the others greetings from Lanzarote.0 -
dublinviking wrote: »
I have no idea how much you have read of this thread but i did not use wider common cultural and language traits. I used very peculiar similarities which seem to only occur in Ireland and Central Europe. There is a link that goes back to neolithic times but there are later links from bronze age and iron age and early medieval time and i have only just scratched the surface. Look at crannogs for instance. Look at gords and ring forts. No one built them but western slavs and irish. why? None of it was explored by anyone that i know so far. I am here giving you all the data i have gathered and some of my hypothesis based on that data. People can do what ever they want with it. Ignore it, rubbish it, use it for your own research. I think there is a lot of material there that opens a lot of questions that require better answers then just "we are all indo europeans" particularly because there is no such thing as indo european.
This is at odds with the central tenet of your first post:
Many years ago I noticed strange similarities between Irish and Serbian mythology, language, toponymes and hydronymes. This was a mystery because according to history, these two peoples never lived in the same area of Europe at the same time, and therefore should not have been able to influence each other. And yet the number of similar or identical cultural, religious and linguistic characteristics kept growing. Also, people between the Balkans and Ireland did not share these cultural traits. This meant that there was no cultural diffusion. The conclusion was that these two people (Serbian and Irish) must have lived together somewhere at some point in history in order to mix their languages and cultures so much.0 -
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so are you saying that zoroastrian mythology/religion is the same as greek mythology/religion? who is yima in greek mythology? are there varas in greek mythology? is there a bhujyu? is there a bahitra? i would seriously like to know if there is because i missed it and its my job not to miss such things.
i think i would take a look at the material culture of the two entities before i said it was all fundamentally flawed. the irish did some unique things. the central europeans did the same unique things just a bit earlier and after an interlude did them again.
and there is the problem of these genetics
looks like most of the irish are from central europe to me.
so are you saying that zoroastrian mythology/religion is the same as greek mythology/religion?
1. No of course zoroastrian mythology/religion is NOT the same as greek mythology/religion. The same way that Christianity is NOT an indo-European religion but preserves aspects of indo - european religion.
who is yima in greek mythology?
2. I presume that you are referring to Jamshid/Yima/Yama. In Greek religion he is Hades.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yama
"Yama in Iranian mythology[edit]
Main article: Jamshid
A parallel character in Iranian mythology and Zoroastrianism is known as Yima Xšaēta, who appears in the Avesta. The pronunciation "Yima" is peculiar to the Avestan dialect; in most Iranian dialects, including Old Persian, the name would have been "Yama". In the Avesta, the emphasis is on Yima's character as one of the first mortals and as a great king of men. Over time, *Yamaxšaita was transformed into Jamšēd or Jamshid, celebrated as the greatest of the early shahs of the world. Both Yamas in Zoroastrian and Hindu myth guard hell with the help of two four-eyed dogs.[6] [7]"
"In Hinduism, Yama is the lokapala ("Guardian of the Directions") of the south. Three hymns (10, 14, and 35) in the 10th book of the Rig Veda are addressed to him. He has two dogs with four eyes and wide nostrils guarding the road to his abode (cf. hellhound). They are said to wander about among people as his messengers.[2]
He was sometimes the son of Surya,[3] the sun god & Usha, and sometimes the son of Vivasvat & Saranya.[who?] In Sanskrit, Yama's name can be interpreted to mean "twin",[4] and in some myths, he is paired with a twin sister Yami or Yamuna.[5] In these myths, they are the first pair of humans in the world.
In art, he is depicted with green or red skin and red clothes and rides a water buffalo. He holds a loop of rope in his left hand with which he pulls the soul from the corpse.His Greek counterpart is Hades or possibly Thanatos. His Egyptian counterpart is Osiris."
Interestingly all three (Persian, Indian and Greek) guard the underworld using a dog! We hold festivities in his honour on 1st November every year here in Ireland!
are there varas in greek mythology?
varas - castes to the lay man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans
"Many Indo-European societies know a threefold division of priests, a warrior class, and a class of peasants or husbandmen. Such a division was suggested for the Proto-Indo-European society by Georges Dumézil."
In Ireland we had the bards, warriors, and farmers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trifunctional_hypothesis
I am not aware of any Greek Castes. Then again that does not mean that they did not exist in prehistory.
is there a bhujyu?
4. I don't know what bhujyu is other than that it's the sanskrit for fire. In rome the God of fire is Vulcan. In Greece he is Hephaestus.
is there a bahitra?
5. Yea
You mean, Vishnu's ark, right? In a flood myth?
In Hindu mythology, texts such as the Satapatha Brahmana mention the puranic story of a great flood,wherein the Matsya Avatar of Vishnu warns the first man, Manu, of the impending flood, and also advises him to build a giant boat.
The Greeks had the Deucalion legend: "as told by the Bibliotheca has some similarity to other deluge myths such as the Epic of Gilgamesh and the story of Noah's Ark. The titan Prometheus advised his son Deucalion to build a chest. All other men perished except for a few who escaped to high mountains. The mountains in Thessaly were parted, and all the world beyond the Isthmus and Peloponnese was overwhelmed. Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha, after floating in the chest for nine days and nights, landed on Parnassus. An older version of the story told by Hellanicus has Deucalion's "ark" landing on Mount Othrys in Thessaly. Another account has him landing on a peak, probably Phouka, in Argolis, later called Nemea. When the rains ceased, he sacrificed to Zeus. Then, at the bidding of Zeus, he threw stones behind him, and they became men, and the stones Pyrrha threw became women. The Bibliotheca gives this as an etymology for Greek Laos "people" as derived from laas "stone".[7] The Megarians told that Megarus, son of Zeus and a Sithnid nymph, escaped Deucalion's flood by swimming to the top of Mount Gerania, guided by the cries of cranes.[8]
I think that this transcends Indo Europeanism, You know like Noah and his...
i would seriously like to know if there is because i missed it and its my job not to miss such things.
6. what can i say?:rolleyes::o:):P0 -
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I have already written about negative meaning attached to word Tuatha in the Irish language and myth. If Tuatha are Tuatha Dé Danann then the triple goddess Dana (Brighid) was the tribal goddess of these people. At the same time, triple goddes Zorya (dawn in English) whose alternative name is Danica, Dana, could be the tribal goddess of Zoryani/Zeruiani/Sorians/Serians/Sorbs/Serbs????
At the same time in ancient Greece, we have triple goddess Hecate (ancient Greek Ἑκάτη ) and somewhat similar tribal name for Akhaioí whose other name was the Danaans (ancient GreekΔαναοί).The Achaeans (Greek: Ἀχαιοί, Akhaioí) is one of the collective names used for the Greeks in Homer's Iliad (used 598 times) and Odyssey. The other names are the Danaans (Δαναοί, used 138 times in the Iliad) and Argives (Ἀργεῖοι, used 29 times in the Iliad).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaeans_(Homer)
Hecate has been characterized as a pre-Olympian chthonic goddess. She is a daughter of a Star goddess and is portrayed with with the sun or star rays around one of here three heads. She is a goddess off the night of stars and dawn. She is a torch bearer. She is commonly attended by a dog or dogs. She is a htonic
Are Hecate, Zoria, Dana, Brighid one and the same?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate
http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/HekateGoddess.html
And if Dana is goddess of Danans, and Soria is goddess of Sorbs, and (H)ecate id goddess of Akhaioí (who are Danaans) and all these goddesses are all one and the same, then whose goddess id Brighid? Brigantes, Bregians, Phrygians? We have already seen how Brigantes, Bregians, Phrygians link Serbs and the Irish. Here we might have another link between the Serbs, the Tuatha Irish, the Phrygians (Brigantes) and the Doric Greeks who came from north west Balkans. Were all these people one and the same? Was Dana the old chthonic goddess of the Balkans?
Here is an interesting article which talks about Slavic and Celtic triple goddesses and a peculiar Orthodox Christian icon called "The three armed Virgin".A particular type of icon, known in all oriental Christendom (orthodox world), shows the Holy Mother having three hands. On the most ancient copies, the third hand is in silver. The legend which accompanies this icon, of Serbian origin, could well be a relic of Celtic mythology in the Balkans. (My comment: Or Serbian, Phrygian (Tuatha de Danann) mythology)
http://sms.zrc-sazu.si/pdf/13/SMS_13_16_Lajoye.pdf
Couple of other things:
Zorya's father is Dabog/Dažbog. Brighid's father is Dagda. Both Dabog and Dagda mean the god who gives.
Slavic word for god "bog" comes from Proto-Indo-European *bʰago. The original root *bʰag appears to have referred to "eating, food, wealth", hence the provider of food and wealth, i.e. "god". Compare Old Church Slavonic ѹбогъ (ubogŭ, “poor”), богатъ (bogatŭ, “rich”).
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Slavic/bog%D1%8A#Proto-Slavic
I already wrote that we have the same word in Irish:
Irish: bochd - poor, so Irish, Old Irish bocht;
Serbian: ubog - u bog meaning in poverty poor
So if Bog means "to give" or "the one who gives" then da-bog is doubling of "to give" literally "to give to give" or "the one who gives gives". Knowing this, Dagda could actually come from "da ga da" which means "to give it" or "god gives it".
Speaking of Dabog - Dagda, one very interesting link exists between Serbia and Ireland which does not exist between any other "Indo European" peoples. In Serbia, Dabog has another name: hromi Daba, the wolf god, the master of the animals. In Ireland we have an ancient god called Crom Dubh. Crom Dubh is said to have been brought to Ireland by Fomorians (Pomorjani, south Baltic Serbs). If Dabog is Hromi Daba, is then Crom Dubh the same as Dagda? And if Crom Dubh is Dagda, are Fomorians and the Tuatha de Danann one and the same?
I will talk about Crom Dubh and Hromi Daba in more detail later.
In some myths Zorya's husband is Perun. In some myths Brighid's husband is Tuireann.
Perun is the God whose weapon is thunder.. in fact, same god as Taranis and Thor....oak is also symbol of same deityIn Norse mythology, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, the protection of mankind, and also hallowing, healing, and fertility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor*Perkwunos, known as the "striker," is reconstructed[8] from Sanskrit Parjanya, Prussian Perkuns, Lithuanian Perkūnas, Latvian Pērkons, Slavic Perun and NorseFjörgyn. Fjörgyn was replaced by Thor among the Germanic speaking peoples. These gods give their names to Thursday, the fifth day of the week, throughcalqueing. The Celtic hammer god Sucellus is of the same character, but with an unrelated name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_religion
Question is could legend of deity Tuireann of tribe Tuatha Dé Danann have been of same origin as Taranis of later Celtic people...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuireann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taranis
Zorya's home is Bouyan. Brighid's mother is Boann.The home of the Zorya was sometimes said to be on Bouyan (or Buyan), an oceanic island paradise where the Sun dwelt along with his attendants, the North, West and East winds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zorya
Boann or Boand (modern spelling: Bóinn) is the Irish mythology goddess of the River Boyne, a river in Leinster, Ireland. According to theLebor Gabála Érenn she was the daughter of Delbáeth, son of Elada, of the Tuatha Dé Danann.[1] Her husband is variously Nechtan, Elcmar or Nuada. Her lover is the Dagda, by whom she had her son, Aengus. In order to hide their affair, the Dagda made the sun stand still for nine months; therefore, Aengus was conceived, gestated and born in one day.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boann
Boann is paradise island in one mythology, and river in other can we explain it? River and island can be related... e.g. river Bojana (Albanian: Bunë or Buna ) starts its voyage from Skadar lake and goes into Adriatic sea...river Bojana on its entrance to Adriatic sea splits in two and creates island "ada Bojana"... however the island as it is now is believed to came into existence only in 17th century when two smaller islands were connected due to a boat sinking in area between them....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojana_(river)
Boann is artifically made riverAs told in the metrical Dindshenchas,[3] Boann created the River Boyne. Though forbidden to by her husband, Nechtan, Boann approached the magical well of Segais (also known as the Well of Wisdom), which was surrounded by hazel trees. Nuts from the hazels were known to fall into the well, where they were eaten by the speckled salmon (who, along with hazel nuts, also embody and represent wisdom in Irish myth). Boann challenged the power of the well by walking around it counter-clockwise; this caused the waters to surge up violently and rush down to the sea, creating the River Boyne. In this catastrophe, she was swept along in the rushing waters, and lost an arm, leg and eye, and ultimately her life, in the flood. The poem equates her with famous rivers in other countries, including the Severn, Tiber, Jordan, Tigris and Euphrates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boann
1) River Bojana flows out of Skadar lake to Adriatic sea river Boann flows out of magical well Segais to the sea
2) In mythology river Boann was artificially created it is easy to conceive that river Bojana was as well artificially created by creating initial path from lake that is above sea level downwards...
Could it be that these links are about mythology of a tribe who first lived in Balkan and than part of it moved to Ireland?
What comes to my mind are Chelidoni and Bryges / Brigantes...both lived near lake Skadar and river Bojana..0 -
I have to thank Ezra, because without him i would not have found God. Literally.
I have spent last couple of days thinking about the link between the names of Dabog and Dagda.
Dabog = da bog
In Serbian, "da" means "yes", as in confirmation word, "to" as in "to be" "da bude" meaning "to happen", and "to give or gives"
So Dabog = the god who gives, or the one who makes things happen
In Serbian, every prayer or curse, (they are treated as the same in Serbia and are addressed to "bog" - god) starts with:
Da bog da...
This literally means: "may god give, may god make it happen..."
In light of this, could Dagda actually be = da god da (???) where Slavic word "bog" from "da bog da" is replaced with "Germanic" word "god". Is this possible? Actually it seems that it is. Tuatha came from south Baltic from the land of Pomorjani, western Slavs, Sorbs. We have seen that western Slavic languages (now extinct) lie between today's central European Slavic and Germanic languages. Is it possible that bog and god were interchangeable and that they both mean god?
Something made me go and check etymology of the word "god" and it seems no one really knows where it came from and what it's original root was. There are couple of conflicting etymological proposals but nothing really that would connect the word with its meaning. What is also interesting is that the translation of the bible into the "gothic" language was done in the balkans:The English word God continues the Old English God (guþ, gudis in Gothic, gud in modern Scandinavian, God in Dutch, and Gott in modern German), which is thought to derive from Proto-Germanic *ǥuđán.The Proto-Germanic meaning of *ǥuđán and its etymology is uncertain...The earliest uses of the word God in Germanic writing is often cited to be in the Gothic Bible or Wulfila Bible, which is the Christian Bible as translated by Wulfila (a.k.a. Bishop Ulfilas) into the Gothic language spoken by the Eastern Germanic, or Gothic Tribes. The oldest parts of the Gothic Bible, contained in the Codex Argenteus, is estimated to be from the fourth century. During the fourth century, the Goths were converted to Christianity, largely through the efforts of Bishop Ulfilas, who translated the Bible into the Gothic language in Nicopolis ad Istrum in today's northern Bulgaria. The words guda and guþ were used for God in the Gothic Bible....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_(word)Nicopolis ad Istrum (Greek: Νικόπολις η προς Ίστρον) was a Roman and Early Byzantine town founded by Emperor Trajan around 101–106, at the junction of the Iatrus (Yantra) and the Rositsa rivers, in memory of his victory over the Dacians. Its ruins are located at the village of Nikyup, 20 km north of Veliko Tarnovo in northern Bulgaria. The town reached its floruit during the reigns of Trajan, Hadrian, the Antonines and the Severan dynasty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicopolis_ad_Istrum
So we are back in the Balkans to look for the origin of the word "god" in the city built by Iberian Trajan.During the complex christianization of the Germanic tribes of Europe, there were many linguistic influences upon the Christian missionaries. One example post downfall of the western Roman Empire are the missionaries from Rome led by Augustine of Canterbury. Augustine's mission to the Saxons in southern Britain was conducted at a time when the city of Rome was a part of a Lombardic kingdom. The translated bibles which they brought on their mission were greatly influenced by the Germanic tribes they were in contact with, chief among them being the Lombards and Franks. The translation for the word deus of the Latin bible was influenced by the then current usage by the tribes for their highest deity, namely Wodan by Angles, Saxons and Franks of north-central and western Europe and Godan by the Lombards of south-central Europe around Rome. There are many instances where the name Godan and Wodan are contracted to God and Wod.[4] One instance is the wild hunt (a.k.a. Wodan's wild hunt) where Wod is used.[5][6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_(word)
So What is suggested is that Godan was a Longobardic main deity and that his name became the base for the word "god" meaning god. We have seen that latest archaeological evidence from Germany suggests that Longobards and Western polabian Slavs Obodrites were one and the same. Does then Longobardic Godan simply mean god-dan, god given, where "god" means god in Longobardic and "dan" means given in Serbian? But how can we mix "Germanic" god and Slavic dan? We can because god is a Serbian word which means god.
In Serbian we have word god which means:
1. A year
2. a tree ring.
3. Something that exists
4. Something that happens
5. good, just right
6. time, moment
7. big holy day in serbia
8. names day,
9. celebration of the saint protector of the family or clan day (slava),
10. family or clan god
Saint protectors of the family clans is a uniquely Serbian tradition. Serbs, believe that they descend from gods and celebrate gods as their ancestors. The main ancestor of the Serbs is Dabog, the sun god. In Serbian old religion, sun is a living being, which gets born and dies every year. If sun (dabog) was the main god of the Serbs, and he lived through one year cycles, then there is no surprise that a year in Serbian is called "god-ina", the life of god, the duration of god's life. And it is only logical that a tree ring that marks one life cycle of the sun god is called "god". The sun god, Dabog, later became god, bog of the Christianized Serbs in the Balkans.
Apart from the main god ancestor of the people, every Serbian clan then had other lower level gods as their ancestors. Each clan had its own god ancestor celebrated on a particular astronomically and meteorological important day during the sun cycle. This is where god, meaning moment in time, a moment in Sun's life, became a word signifying a god, an aspect of the Sun manifested on that particular day in the sun's cycle. This is why each of these small gods was an aspect of Dabog, the sun god and a part of it. The saints protectors are just Christianised old small clan gods.
Based on this root we have the following words:
god = time, moment
za-god-a = on time, at the right moment, when god intended
god, god-ina = a year, a yearly cycle of the sun.
god-ina = rain
god-ina = weather, climate.
god-ovati = to celebrate a god, originally probably to celebrate a god.
god-ovnjak = someone who celebrates
god, god-ovno, god-et = names day, slava, saint day, originally a celebration of a particular god
pri-god-a = a special occasion, originally a celebration of a god
pri-god-an = appropriate, worthy, originally probably related to offerings and ceremonies dedicated to a particular god.
s-god-iti se = s-biti se = to happen. Serbian word s(a) means with. so "s god" means with god, to be aligned with god's will, with god's will, with god's help, because things only happen if god wants them to happen.
u-god-iti = to make it happen, to make it good, to make it pleasing to god and people
na-god-iti se = to agree, to make it happen because we agreed, to agree before god, to take oath.
pri-god-iti = prepare, make happen. Serbian word "pri" has the same meaning as s(a): with, next to, aligned with. So "pri god" means with god, and "pri-god-iti" means to make it happen with god' help.
do-god-iti se = to happen. This probably comes from "dao-god-iti se". Serbian word "dao" means "gave, allowed", so the meaning is literally god allowed it, god gave it.
od-god-iti = prevent from happening, delay.
god-iti = to cook, prepare food, to make, to be pleasant, to be agreeable
po-god-iti = to hit the target, to guess. Serbian word "po" among other things means "based on, after", so the meaning is literally based on god's will, something that happens when god wants it, to guess god'd will
po-god-an = suitable, good, following god's will.
po-god-a = something good that happens, what happens when you follow god's will or when god wants it to happen.
ne-po-god-a = something bad that happens, what happens when you do not fallow god's will, or when god does not want it to happen.
po-god-ica = something that makes things easier, something given by god to make things easier
s-god-a = something good that happens, something that happens as we expect it to happen, something that happens when you follow god's will or when god wants it to happen.
ne-s-god-a = something bad that happens, something that doesn't happen as we expect it to happen, something that happens when you don't follow god's will or when god doesn't want it to happen.
s-god-an = good, beautiful, good looking, pleasant, lucky, something that we get when we have god on our side.
ne-s-god-an = bad, not beautiful, unpleasant, something that we get when we don't have god on our side.
la-god-an = pleasant, easily obtained, easily made to happen from "lako god", something that god made easy with his help.
pri-la-god-iti se = to adjust to circumstances. In Serbian "pri" means come closer, be close to, "lak" means easy, so the whole expression literally means get closer to god's will, to what god will give easily
kako god = kako bilo = no matter how (it happens), which ever way god wants.
sta god = sta bilo = what ever (happens), whatever god wants
gde god = gde bilo = where ever (it happens), wherever god wants
ko-god, kigodi, kegodi, kimgodi... = who ever, who ever god sends
There is a saying: "bog godi pa sgodi", meanaing: god is, lives, makes and everything is made by him.
This set of words completely describes a belief in omnipotent sun god, whose will needs to be guessed in order to insure that our enterprises are going to be successful. Everything good happens because god wants it and everything bad happens because god does not want it to happen.
From this i will propose that the actual old Serbian word for a god was "god" and that there was only one "bog": the Sun god "dabog". So from here dabogda and dagodda are interchangeable and mean the same thing: god gives. This means that Dagda, Dagoda, Da god da means the same as Da bog da and that they are one and the same god.
Hypatian Codex, is a 15th-century compilation of several much older documents from the Ipatiev Monastery in Russia. It contains a Slavic translation of an original Greek manuscript of John Malalas from the 6th century. The complete passage, reconstructed from several manuscripts, translates as follows:(Then) began his reign Feosta (Hephaestus), whom the Egyptians called Svarog … during his rule, from the heavens fell the smith’s prongs and weapons were forged for the first time; before that, (people) fought with clubs and stones. Feosta also commanded the women that they should have only a single husband… and that is why Egyptians called him Svarog… After him ruled his son, his name was the Sun, and they called him Dažbog… Sun tzar, son of Svarog, this is Dažbog (Dabog). In the Greek text, the names of gods are Hephaestus and Helios...
Svarog is the galaxy, the milky way, the forger of stars. Dabog is Svarožić, a sun of Swarog, the Sun god, the giver of light, the rain, the life. But Svarožić is Svarog as it is a part of it and we are descendants of Dabog the Svarožić the son of Svarog and therefore we are descendants of Svarog himself.Hephaestus’s ugly appearance and lameness is taken by some to represent arsenicosis, an effect of low levels of arsenic exposure that would result in lameness and skin cancers. In place of less easily available tin, arsenic was added to copper in the Bronze Age to harden it; like the hatters, crazed by their exposure to mercury, who inspired Lewis Carroll's famous character of the Mad Hatter, most smiths of the Bronze Age would have suffered from chronic poisoning as a result of their livelihood. Consequently, the mythic image of the lame smith is widespread.[36]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus
Dabog, Dazbog (Hromi Daba) was a god of the Sun, flame and rain. One of his names was Dazdbog, and “dazd” in many Slavic languages means rain (Slovak, Czech, Russian, Polish…). The rain was important because harvests depended upon it. In times of drought many rain invoking rituals were performed.
http://www.starisloveni.com/English/Dazbog.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da%C5%BEbog
This is what Irish legend says about Crom Dubh:For that reason they could not put trust in any person beyond Crom Dubh, because they thought, bad as he was, that it was he who was giving them the light of the day, the darkness of the night, and the change of seasons. It was well, brother of my heart.
http://empoweringminds.spd.dcu.ie/documents/serve-version?id=131
In Serbian word for lame is "hrom". I believe that "hromi Daba", the other secret name for Dabog in Serbian mythology was originally "hromi Dabog", meaning lame all giving god. Did this god represent an aspect of Dabog or Svarog or Both Svarog and Dabog as one i don't know. This is still a mystery to me, and I would love someone to help me to figgure this one out. But what I am pretty sure about is that the Irish main pre-Christian god, "Crom Dubh", is actually "Hromi Daba" or more precisely "Hromi Dabog", the Sun god, the father of the Serbs and probably (some of) the Irish too. 0 -
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slowburner wrote: »This might be of interest.
Slowburner's map is quite interesting - The Albanian word for "word" - "fjale",is the closest I can see to our own "focal"(Scots Gaelic aside).I decided to delve deeper and found the following on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCq3FGPAJTs
I think what this shows clearly,and ezra_pound's earlier posts have highlighted this already,that if you take any two European countries and compare their languages and cultures you're going to find close,and often times very close similarities.
I'm not however taking anything away from the amazing research dublinviking has done to date and look forward to reading more in the hope I can be convinced.0 -
slowburner thank you very much for your map. As you can see there is a marked distinction between the south Slavs and the East slavs. But guess what. A word for speach in Serbian is go-vor but also veda (remember rig veda) and beseda. go-vor-iti, veda-ti and besediti all mean to talk to tell tales to speak. The word "govor" comes from go + vor. "vor" (i believe) means "a sound with (which carries) a meaning". go is a very old word which means directing, moving in a particular direction. so go-vor (speech) means sounds with meaning directed at someone. go as a word is preserved in Serbian in words like goniti - to usher, to move in certain direction, to escort...
If we look at etymology of the word "word" we find that it does not have a root.From Middle English word, from Old English word (“word, speech, sentence, statement, command, order, subject of talk, story, news, report, fame, promise, verb”), from Proto-Germanic *wurdą (“word”), from Proto-Indo-European *werdʰo- (“word”). Cognate with Scots word (“word”), West Frisian wurd (“word”), Dutch woord (“word”), German Wort (“word”), Danish, Norwegian and Swedish ord (“word”), Icelandic orð (“word”), Latin verbum (“word”), Lithuanian vardas (“name”), Albanian urtë (“sage, wise, silent”). Etymological twin of verb.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/word
It also seems that the word is a past participle based on the meanings: "word, speech, sentence, statement, command, order, subject of talk, story, news, report, fame, promise, verb". Maybe the root is "vor" or "wor" meaning "sound with (which carries) a meaning" (v and w are interchangeable in slavic languages) and word or vord is finished sound with a meaning, completed sound with a meaning, word. govor is process of making sounds with a meaning and directing those sounds at others. vord is the finished product. What do you think?
How do we explain this? As i said before I believe that serbs were slavicised. Book of Veles talks about mixing of Scythians and the people of the god Dabog. To me this is fascinating.
kicking birdI think what this shows clearly,and ezra_pound's earlier posts have highlighted this already,that if you take any two European countries and compare their languages and cultures you're going to find close,and often times very close similarities.
The map actually show exactly the opposite. It shows clear regional cultural differences and similarities. Except when you look at the Irish and the Balkans where things are not as they should be. As you say the Irish and Albanians are connected. Why? South Slavs are completely different from the rest of Slavs, but as i have shown they are close to Germanics. Why? I am talking about exactly these exceptions to the rules. The things that don't fit. They point to overlooked or deep burred connections.if you take any two European countries and compare their languages and cultures you're going to find close,and often times very close similarities.
This is attitude which stops research. Of course you can find similarities between any two European nations. Cultural exchange is one of the ways. Coke, TV, Mobile....Christianity another.
But isn't it interesting to find the proper root for the word "god" in South Slavic languages of all languages? How the hell is this possible? Why don't we find something like this in any Germanic language? Maybe we do but i am not aware of it. We certainly don't find it in Slavic languages. We find isolated words from the "god" word cluster but the whole cluster that describes a sun god we find only in South Slavic languages. If Serbian only had God and not all the other god words that would be a similarity. This is something else. By the way, do you remember the book "the origin of anglo saxon race" which i spoke about earlier? Slavic languages were one of the building blocks of that language, because baltic slavs, obodrites, sorbs were part of anglo saxon federation. they were also part of of viking federations. in germany and scandinavia they were building bloc of german, danish, norse nations and languages. so no wander we have word "god" in all these countries and no wander we have word "word" there as well.Slowburner's map is quite interesting - The Albanian word for "word" - "fjale",is the closest I can see to our own "focal"(Scots Gaelic aside).
you might be right about Gaelic - Albanian connection. When i came to Ireland first and i heard Gaelic being spoken it reminded me straight away to Albanian. Also there is a certain racial subgroup in Ireland that looks like certain Albanian racial subgroups.
But, both the Irish and the Albanians are mix of various races as genetic research is showing us. Also both Gaelic and Albanian are mixed languages. So part of Gaelic language and culture does have similarities and overlaps with parts of Albanian language and culture. Albania lies in what used to be Illyrian land and are culturally part of the Balkan cultures which take root from Vinca and earlier cultures. Even today Albania is not a ethnically homogeneous place despite all the efforts to make it a such place through intensive Albanisation of non Albanian population which has been taking place since Turkish times in Albania and Kosovo and which is well documented. Albanian as a language is very new late medieval invention. You will not find any old Albanian texts, because the language did not exist. What existed were many local languages and dialects which were artificially fused into Albanian language. Similar to Italian language which was created by Dante.
Most Northern Albanians are ethnically the same as Montenegrian and Serbs and can trace their roots to old medieval mountain tribes. The southern Albanians were brought to Europe from Caucasus by eastern roman emperors during one of many civil wars as mercenary troops. They were first settled in Sicily and then came to Balkans. So Sicilians and Albanians are related as well. Remember when we were talking about volga trading route, the Caucasus Iberia...? Maybe this is where you should look for Albanian Gaelic connections...
I don't want to go deeper into it, as i am not personally interested in it, but i will be glad to point you to resources.I'm not however taking anything away from the amazing research dublinviking has done to date and look forward to reading more in the hope I can be convinced.
Thank you very much on your compliment. I am glad you are continuing to read. And thank you for talking and not fighting. Most of the time i am talking to myself. And i already know all my jokes, so it's pretty boring.
By the way for all your information i have invited here all the history, archaeology and linguistics professors from all Irish, Brittish, major US, German, Balkan universities, and asked them to comment. The response is overwhelming. 0 -
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What is the racial sub group shared by Ireland and Albania?
Difficult to explain. You find the same type in the rest of Balkans and a lot in Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Bosnia. Sharp facial features, pale skin, wavy mostly dark hair, light color eyes. A sub type of Dinaric, Noric sub type i believe. Ireland is full of people like this.
This would be more typical dinaric north albanian, serbian type:
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funny. what is "indo european" root for "word"?
Werdho
http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/word
Etymology
From Middle English word, from Old Englishword (“word, speech, sentence, statement, command, order, subject of talk, story, news, report, fame, promise, verb”), fromProto-Germanic *wurdą (“word”), fromProto-Indo-European *werdʰo- (“word”). Cognate with Scots word (“word”), West Frisian wurd (“word”), Dutchwoord (“word”), German Wort (“word”),Danish, Norwegian and Swedishord (“word”), Icelandic orð (“word”), Latinverbum (“word”), Lithuanianvardas (“name”), Albanian urtë (“sage, wise, silent”). Etymological twin of verb.0 -
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