A chance to scrap the Angelus - Nutella, Croissants and Pineapples.

robindch · 14-06-2015 12:15pm

"...and fishermen kinda just doing nothing":

http://www.thejournal.ie/angelus-revamp-voxpop-2155792-Jun2015/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ISGL1wYBOU

expectationlost · 14-06-2015 8:38pm

this issue has risen again because of an RTE commissioning brief for video for the Angelus
The "Angelus" Reflective Pauses on RTÉ One http://www.rte.ie/commissioning/angelus.html

they think the they can pretend its not the Angelus by calling it the "Angelus" one day a week

never read such waffle in my life

In fact, RTÉ Audience Research and numerous straw polls in the media have shown that a clear majority of Irish viewers still favours keeping the "Angelus" broadcasts, chimes and all. In an age where mindfulness is the new buzzword, it seems that many people, with and without a religious faith, can see the value in a reflective space in the schedule - an opportunity for people to "go placidly amidst the noise."

what 'RTÉ Audience Research' lets see it, not to matters a majority does not mean public station gets to favour one religion above all others.

Atheist Ireland have one of their long detailed briefs on the issue http://atheist.ie/2015/06/rte-angelus-video-competition/ but as ever they forgot to include the crucial link to the commission brief so you could understand what they are talking about.

SpaceTime · 16-06-2015 8:44am

It's one of those things that is a bit shocking when you arrive in Ireland after not having been here for a while.

You stop noticing it after a while but I find it usually causes me to switch from RTE Radio 1 over to someone else, especially in the car.

Kind of reminds me of something you'd see on public broadcasting in an ultra-Islamic country or something like that.

iguana · 16-06-2015 11:20am

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's one of those things that is a bit shocking when you arrive in Ireland after not having been here for a while.

You stop noticing it after a while but I find it usually causes me to switch from RTE Radio 1 over to someone else, especially in the car.

Kind of reminds me of something you'd see on public broadcasting in an ultra-Islamic country or something like that.

It really is. When I moved back here from London it was almost a physical shock to me. It's such a weird and backward thing to see on tv. I can't even begin to imagine how it appears to people from other countries who didn't grow up with it.

Brian Shanahan · 16-06-2015 6:47pm

iguana wrote: »

It really is. When I moved back here from London it was almost a physical shock to me. It's such a weird and backward thing to see on tv. I can't even begin to imagine how it appears to people from other countries who didn't grow up with it.

Even when I was an observant catlick, the angelus was a bloody annoying nuisance.

Sheldons Brain · 16-06-2015 6:52pm

iguana wrote: »

It really is. When I moved back here from London it was almost a physical shock to me. It's such a weird and backward thing to see on tv. I can't even begin to imagine how it appears to people from other countries who didn't grow up with it.

Would you ever get a sense of proportion? You moved from a country where they have a royal family FFS.

SpaceTime · 16-06-2015 8:17pm

iguana wrote: »

It really is. When I moved back here from London it was almost a physical shock to me. It's such a weird and backward thing to see on tv. I can't even begin to imagine how it appears to people from other countries who didn't grow up with it.

Mostly it gives the impression that you're in a sort of theocracy.

I'm still shocked that a French friend of mine asked if you could be critical of religion here openly or would you possibly be arrested as she's heard about the blasphemy law and assumed we were actually serious!

Ireland still has a reputation as bit of a conservative, religious backwater. The marriage referendum has challenged that view somewhat but for most people seeing the angelus on TV is probably just confirming what they suspected.

They're completely right too. There are some legacy issues here that do make us quite an odd country.

Peregrinus · 17-06-2015 5:14am

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Would you ever get a sense of proportion? You moved from a country where they have a royal family FFS.

And an established church. And a peerage, for the love of God, with a privileged role in legislation.

If I had to choose, I'd take the broadcast angelus any day, thanks.

worded · 17-06-2015 5:30am

And will that fisherman on Or Tee E ever get his nails cleaned?

Hotblack Desiato · 17-06-2015 8:50am

Peregrinus wrote: »

And an established church. And a peerage, for the love of God, with a privileged role in legislation.

If I had to choose, I'd take the broadcast angelus any day, thanks.

What would be weird in terms of western societies is not having a dominant or established church, or a royal family, but having a national broadcaster making twice daily calls for the adoration of one or the other.

lazygal · 17-06-2015 9:00am

What does it matter what other countries do? Having a twice daily call to prayer for one specific denomination on the national broadcaster is beyond weird. Giving out about royal families elsewhere is the Irish mammy there's children starving so clear your plate line of thought.

Peregrinus · 17-06-2015 9:53am

lazygal wrote: »

What does it matter what other countries do?

Indeed. Equally, what does it matter what other countries think of what we do? If iguana, on moving here from London, found that we do things differently here, well, duh. It's hardly much of an argument for saying that we should do as they do in London. I didn't spend two years in a flying column for that!

(OK, I didn't spend two years in a flying column at all. But you take my point.)

smacl · 17-06-2015 4:13pm

lazygal wrote: »

Giving out about royal families elsewhere is the Irish mammy there's children starving so clear your plate line of thought.

Or as my granny used to say 'think of the poor starving children in Utopia'.

ScumLord · 17-06-2015 5:03pm

RTÉ Audience Research and numerous straw polls in the media have shown that a clear majority of Irish viewers still favours keeping the "Angelus" broadcasts, chimes and all.

The Irish people would favour keeping a giant turd outside their house if it was there long enough. We get attached to all kinds of stupid stuff.

Eugene Norman · 20-06-2015 10:51pm

lazygal wrote: »

What does it matter what other countries do? Having a twice daily call to prayer for one specific denomination on the national broadcaster is beyond weird. Giving out about royal families elsewhere is the Irish mammy there's children starving so clear your plate line of thought.

No it's not. The guy being replied to was embarrassed about coming from London.

The BBC as it happens has religious programming and daily prayers.

realdanbreen · 20-06-2015 11:37pm

iguana wrote: »

It really is. When I moved back here from London it was almost a physical shock to me. It's such a weird and backward thing to see on tv. I can't even begin to imagine how it appears to people from other countries who didn't grow up with it.

And here was me thinking we had matured as a nation and weren't constantly worried about what 'people from other countries' might think of us.

jimd2 · 21-06-2015 4:06am

Nothing to do with what people from other countries think or don't think. It's about what is right at this point in time.

I would defend the RCC here on occasion where I feel that genuine religious people are having their faith slagged off etc. however this is not the case here.

Very few Catholics say their angelus nowadays and the prompting is not necessary.

If people want a reminder regarding when to say the angelus then set the alarm on their phones or simply note that it's 12 or 6pm and turn volume down etc.I don't know the justifications at the time for starting to play the angelus on TV and radio but I would say these reasons have been superseded by now.

RTE board should meet with Diarmuid Martin and inform him that they are dropping the angelus but say that they will continue to broadcast other catholic items like Sunday mass.

expectationlost · 21-06-2015 6:24pm

Eugene Norman wrote: »

No it's not. The guy being replied to was embarrassed about coming from London.

The BBC as it happens has religious programming and daily prayers.

the prayer for the day on radio 4 at 5:40 in the morning is bit different then a tv and radio broadcast before the main news of the day

satguy · 21-06-2015 6:38pm

Is there an option to keep the Angelus , But to get rid of RTE ?

Brian Shanahan · 21-06-2015 9:10pm

jimd2 wrote: »

RTE board should meet with Diarmuid Martin and inform him that they are dropping the angelus but say that they will continue to broadcast other catholic items like Sunday mass.

On RTE News Now at 3:40 am on a Monday morning. Frankly any broadcasting of religious propoganda, which is what mass and other relgious celebrations are, should be totally beyond the pale for any state broadcaster.

SpaceTime · 21-06-2015 9:51pm

It just causes me to change channel on the radio. You'd wonder how many more listeners and viewers RTE actually loses because of that.

Aside from the religious thing, I find listening to 60 seconds of oddly slow bongs in the car a bit annoying so, invariably I end up ditching Drivetime for Today FM.

Skrynesaver · 22-06-2015 8:21am

SpaceTime wrote: »

It just causes me to change channel on the radio. You'd wonder how many more listeners and viewers RTE actually loses because of that.

Aside from the religious thing, I find listening to 60 seconds of oddly slow bongs in the car a bit annoying so, invariably I end up ditching Drivetime for Today FM.

Does anyone else find it annoying that TodayFM and Newstalk seem to have ads on during the bongs rather than a news bulletin, similarly to yourself if I'm driving I'll switch over only to be met with Mammon on the other channels...

Bongalongherb · 25-06-2015 12:52am

ScumLord wrote: »

The Irish people would favour keeping a giant turd outside their house if it was there long enough. We get attached to all kinds of stupid stuff.

Some folk do get attached to all kinds of crazy stuff, but in saying this... The Angelus should play... 'this philosophical and thought-provoking below' instead of beating bells driving folk mad, the (mute button) scenario.

Give it a meaning to make it worthwhile. The Angelus on RTE is dire and out of sync with reality imo. You need to feel it, not hear it.

Sounds better than steel bells clanging all fecking day do you not think ?. Vangelis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VosFiY1SifA

expectationlost · 25-06-2015 1:49am

Atheist Ireland criticises RTÉ’s Angelus revamp http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/atheist-ireland-criticises-rt%C3%A9-s-angelus-revamp-1.2261871 in the IT

A spokesman said it was RTÉ’s intention that “this reflective minute” should be accessible to people of all faiths and none.
He added: “The Angelus prayer itself is never broadcast in these slots and is not imposed on viewers.

the Angelus pray is the Hail Mary right? I could probably recite that all if prompted a little, the prayer isn't supposed to broadcast, its meant to prompt you to recite the prayers you had drilled into you as child, so they are saving us for soemthing that wouldn't happen?

“RTÉ has always given consideration to views expressed by Atheist Ireland and by the many groups and lobbies in order to strike a balance which best serves the interests of our licence-payers and honours RTÉ’s obligations under the Broadcasting Act to reflect the rich and diverse religious, spiritual and philosophical culture of Ireland.”

again the Angelus somehow shows Ireland rich diversity?

Hotblack Desiato · 25-06-2015 7:59am

State-imposed catholic monoculture is actually proof of how diverse Ireland is :rolleyes:

SpaceTime · 25-06-2015 8:08am

Slogan should be "RTE - Keeping one foot in the 1950s"

I'd nearly rather they were just honest and put up religious imagery.

This is actually an insult to secularism and probably quite insulting to Catholics too.

What's next? "Ah it's not Mass, it's just a gathering led by a catholic priest that's reflective of a multicultural Ireland".

RTE sounds like it's run by the same lobby as the primary schools.

It's worrying that a public service broadcaster can't see how wrong what they're proposing is.

Pretending the angelus isn't religious is actually quite creepy and sounds like an attempt to sneak religion into a schedule for the non religious.

Something very cult-like about what RTE are done doing and something deeply dishonest too.

frostyjacks · 25-06-2015 8:15am

I quite like that we have one minute of meditation and reflection on primetime tv. Better that than incessant advertising getting rammed down our throats.

lazygal · 25-06-2015 8:17am

frostyjacks wrote: »

I quite like that we have one minute of meditation and reflection on primetime tv. Better that than incessant advertising getting rammed down our throats.

This is advertising. The angelus is the catholic call to prayer. It isn't part of any other faith, no matter how RTE try to spin it.

SpaceTime · 25-06-2015 8:19am

frostyjacks wrote: »

I quite like that we have one minute of meditation and reflection on primetime tv. Better that than incessant advertising getting rammed down our throats.

You can also just switch the TV off and go out and enjoy the birdsong in the garden, have a cup of tea, walk the dog, put on some chill music, have a bath, go for a jog, go for a swim, chill out over a nice cup of coffee and watch the world go by... Or whatever it is you find relaxing!

Does RTE need to tell you when to take a chill out moment using a weird recording of annoyingly irregularly mistimed slow ringing church bells?!

SpaceTime · 25-06-2015 8:25am

lazygal wrote: »

This is advertising. The angelus is the catholic call to prayer. It isn't part of any other faith, no matter how RTE try to spin it.

The spin is utterly cringe / vomit inducing too. They seem desperate to keep it yet they obviously find it embarrassing, so they're watering it down.

It shows utter spinelessness to me.

And now on RTE One a debate on the gay marriage referendum --- just after the angelus!

Also tends to reconfirm every stereotype they have of "the south" up north too.

"and now on our lady television ..."

Honestly can you imagine if a NI channel started the news with a rendition of the aire of All things Bright and Beautiful?!

Yet, the Irish often have the hypocritical ability to sneer at the evangelical yanks who at least have a concept of a secular state!

lazygal · 25-06-2015 8:28am

It's the equivalent of Catholic schools publishing stuff on how to be inclusive. "We really believe you're going to hell but we'll keep that on the down low. Meanwhile here's Alive O!! It's fun and dresses up indoctrination in a creepily childish way!!"

SpaceTime · 25-06-2015 8:36am

lazygal wrote: »

It's the equivalent of Catholic schools publishing stuff on how to be inclusive. "We really believe you're going to hell but we'll keep that on the down low. Meanwhile here's Alive O!! It's fun and dresses up indoctrination in a creepily childish way!!"

It's more like "a begrudging tolerance with the odd attempt to brainwash you" than "inclusivity".

If you're nice enough to the heathens you might be able to convert them!

One of my relatives is currently getting the "would you not baptise her? The poor child will be excluded from her Irish roots! She won't get her lovely day out when all the normal little girls are making their communion. She won't be able to go to a normal school. You're making her different because you're just being awkward".

This is being constantly pushed by various "liberal" people at an absolutely non religious relative of mine and his non Irish, non catholic wife who is finding it all coming across as xenophobic and a bit racist rather than "quirky mad Irishness".

People in Ireland don't understand how this kind of stuff makes you feel unwelcome in your own country.

RTE is just doing exactly the same thing by trying to sneak a bit of religion in ...

Peregrinus · 25-06-2015 8:42am

Well, that cuts both ways, surely? Can't those bothered by the angelus deal with the problem by switching the TV off, going out, enjoying the birdsong, yadda, yadda, yadda?

Aren't there really two separate issues here?

First, RTE, like most religious broadcasters, had an explicit mandate for religious broadcasting, and the angelus is only a small part of what they do in that regard. You have regular broadcasts of religious services - mostly Catholic, but also other Christian and occasionally non-Christian. And around the services is wrapped rolling discusson of religious/spiritual/ethical issues. Separately, you've got religious documentary/current affairs broadcasting like Life Matters, and you have series like Gay Byrne's Meaning of Life which acheived some notice on this Board a couple of months back when an interview with Stephen Fry was broadcast.

Right. Those who are terrified with embarrassment at the thought that Ireland might do anything in the teeniest way different from how our betters in the UK do things UK will find nothing to alarm them here, since this is pretty much what the BBC does. It's also pretty much what the Australian Broadcasting Corporation does. I'd imagine it's a fairly common model for countries whose notion of public service broadcasting is influenced by the UK example.

So, unless you're a fairly militant and intolerant secularist who believes that non-secular questions should simply be banned from the airways, or at least in public service broadcasting, it's hard to see that there's anything to complain about here. You could perhaps argue that the content of RTE's religious broadcasting is not sufficiently diverse, and there should be more emphasis on non-Christian and non-religious perspectives. But that doesn't provide much foundation for objecting to the angelus as such.

Which raises the second question; is there anything about the angelus in particular to attract such ire? The angelus is, of course, not a discussion or an analysis; it's simply a religiously-motivated exercise presented without comment or criticism. But exactly the same is true of any religious service that is broadcast, and that happens all the time. And, the point has been made that they don't broadcast the angelus in the UK, close readers will have detected that I don't have much respect for this as an argument for saying that we shouldn't do it in Ireland. And, as an argument, it has even less legs when we reflect that, while the BBC doesn't broadcast a daily angelus, it does have a twice-weekly broadcast of church bells ringing, which comes from a different church every week.

frostyjacks · 25-06-2015 8:46am

SpaceTime wrote: »

You can also just switch the TV off and go out and enjoy the birdsong in the garden, have a cup of tea, walk the dog, put on some chill music, have a bath, go for a jog, go for a swim, chill out over a nice cup of coffee and watch the world go by... Or whatever it is you find relaxing!

Does RTE need to tell you when to take a chill out moment using a weird recording of annoyingly irregularly mistimed slow ringing church bells?!

Exactly. So why the clamour to scrap it when people can just switch off or change channel? It's part of our identity, like Tayto cheese & onion crisps or saying bye bye bye bye bye at the end of phone call.

Hotblack Desiato · 25-06-2015 8:50am

frostyjacks wrote: »

Exactly. So why the clamour to scrap it when people can just switch off or change channel?

That doesn't answer the question of why there is a need to have it at all. 'It's always been like that' isn't an answer either.

It's part of our identity, like Tayto cheese & onion crisps or saying bye bye bye bye bye at the end of phone call.

But RTE don't give Tayto a free minute-long ad on radio and TV twice a day.

SpaceTime · 25-06-2015 8:51am

I can think of no other public service broadcaster other than perhaps in the middle east where religious calls to prayer are broadcast twice daily.

At least in the middle east they wouldn't attempt to dress them up as something they're not.

The fact that RTE is tying to pretend this is not religious programming is what I find the most disturbing.

Honestly it's no different from the BBC broadcasting a minute of an orchestra playing a hymn before the news twice a day.

It's not going to happen because they've more cop on than to do that.

They present religious programming like Songs of Praise etc very much as what it is and they do not inject it into the schedule willy nilly.

Inserting a 1 min call to prayer at key prime time slots when viewership is at its peak and people are tuning into see the news is evangelisation and advertising, it's not a public service for the Catholic community.

A prayer at bed time is another example of this kind of thing. It's not PSB, it's the channel itself actually blessing itself basically.

There's a very big difference between doing BBc style religious programming and actually making the station itself partake in a particular religion as part of its imaging / branding.

Hotblack Desiato · 25-06-2015 8:53am

SpaceTime wrote: »

There's a very big difference between doing BBc style religious programming and actually making the station itself partake in a particular religion as part of its imaging / branding.

It should be remembered that RTE's logo was, for decades, a religious one.

Sam Kade · 25-06-2015 8:55am

People who are watching rte at 6pm must have sad lives and people who complain about rte have on are even more sad :rolleyes:

SpaceTime · 25-06-2015 8:58am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It should be remembered that RTE's logo was, for decades, a religious one.

One of their studios was also fully consecrated and Telefís Éireann was launched complete with a live on air blessing from none less than archbishop JC McQuaid.

SpaceTime · 25-06-2015 8:59am

Sam Kade wrote: »

People who are watching rte at 6pm must have sad lives and people who complain about rte have on are even more sad :rolleyes:

I actually rarely watch TV at that time of the day but I'm regularly hit with Mary Wilson going "and now we will pause for the angelus" in the middle of prime time current affairs radio while I'm stuck in the car. Leaves me scrambling to reach for the Today FM button as I find 1 minute of mistimed bongs extremely annoying.

Skrynesaver · 25-06-2015 9:01am

I guess the reason it irks me is that it comes across as a territory marking exercise masked as "a moment of quiet reflection" (how do they sell that one with all the banging going on in the background?) Work occasionally drags me to Muslim countries and the call to prayer there is very similar, but at least they don't have the nerve to pretend not to be theocracies.

frostyjacks · 25-06-2015 9:02am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That doesn't answer the question of why there is a need to have it at all. 'It's always been like that' isn't an answer either..

I think there is a need for people to have at least one moment of reflection during the day. It's not really a call to prayer anymore, it's 60 seconds of calm and meditation, they've done away with the Catholic imagery.

Peregrinus · 25-06-2015 9:03am

SpaceTime wrote: »

I can think of no other public service broadcaster other than perhaps in the middle east where religious calls to prayer are broadcast twice daily.

The BBC, as already pointed out, broadcasts church bells ringing twice weekly.

SpaceTime wrote: »

There's a very big difference between doing BBc style religious programming and actually making the station itself partake in a particular religion as part of its imaging / branding.

The church bells are up there with the shipping forecast as a endearing and iconic feature of the BBC brand.

The bottom line is that "BBC-style religious programming" includes a broadcast which is as near as dammit to the RTE's angelus broadcast - church bells ringing as a call to prayer. They do it twice a week as opposed to twice a day. On the other hand, they do it for longer each time. I struggle to see those differences as being very signficant issues of principle.

Sam Kade · 25-06-2015 9:03am

SpaceTime wrote: »

I actually rarely watch TV at that time of the day but I'm regularly hit with Mary Wilson going "and now we will pause for the angelus" in the middle of prime time current affairs radio while I'm stuck in the car. Leaves me scrambling to reach for the Today FM button as I find 1 minute of mistimed bongs extremely annoying.

Well you're not sad then just annoyed by bell rings.

SpaceTime · 25-06-2015 9:05am

It's very much "attention heathens: this is Irish Catholic television ... Now heads down and let us pass the collection plate ehmm I mean TV license demand .. This will be silent collection".

Delirium · 25-06-2015 9:06am

frostyjacks wrote: »

I think there is a need for people to have at least one moment of reflection during the day. It's not really a call to prayer anymore, it's 60 seconds of calm and meditation, they've done away with the Catholic imagery.

Might want to tell RTE that

Angelus: a Roman Catholic devotion commemorating the Incarnation of Jesus and including the Hail Mary, said at morning, noon, and sunset.

Huntergonzo · 25-06-2015 9:13am

Can we not reach a compromise here, how about every time the big stupid angelus dong rings a nice big pair of titts bang together on tv. I think this would keep most people happy and imagine what it would do for viewing figures :-)

frostyjacks · 25-06-2015 9:14am

SW wrote: »

Might want to tell RTE that

Angelus: a Roman Catholic devotion commemorating the Incarnation of Jesus and including the Hail Mary, said at morning, noon, and sunset.

I think you're confusing Angelus (the devotion) with The Angelus (tv and radio programme). They are two separate things.

SpaceTime · 25-06-2015 9:14am

Bear in mind that a lot of people in Britain feel BBC is far too heavily dosed with religion and also one flavour of religion mostly too.

The fact that BBC spends a considerable % of its schedule pondering its religious beliefs doesn't make what RTE does right.

The UK is by definition a theocratic state, a tolerant one but it still has the head of state appointed by God and simultaneously head of the established church and the Church of England Bishops still form part of the legislature as the Lords Spiritual in the upper house to name but a few things.

The British like to overlook that and laugh at American evangelicals being loud about religion (in a strictly secular state) or point out how conservative Ireland is but, the reality is they're the official theocracy on paper at least.

We're *supposedly* a Republic and bringing in elements of a theocracy kind of just a tiny bit flies in the face of what are normally considered to be republican values.

It's like Ireland just sticks the word republic up because it sounded all "rad" and sure aren't we just like those French revolutionaries and the Americans and all anti-British establishment...

Then we just tippexed out all references to royal and scribbled on holy Catholic and lashed up a bit of green paint on the post boxes and then out religioused them by maintaining an extreme version of the 1950s until about 1996.

lazygal · 25-06-2015 9:14am

frostyjacks wrote: »

I think there is a need for people to have at least one moment of reflection during the day. It's not really a call to prayer anymore, it's 60 seconds of calm and meditation, they've done away with the Catholic imagery.

Why? I can select my own time and place for one moment of reflection, if I need it. I don't need RTE selecting it for me, at a time and with bells that are the catholic call to prayer.

Not to mention that its two moments a day.

A chance to scrap the Angelus - Nutella, Croissants and Pineapples.

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