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Why is public transport in Dublin so bad?

24567…32

Comments

  • #52
    Macy0161
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,487 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Air travel is part of the public transport infrastructure, as far as I'm concerned.
    One of the biggest opponents of infrastructure development in air travel too - was vocal against T2 and planning for extra capacity in advance of it actually being needed.


  • #53
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    its crap because anything that isn't welfare increases, PS pay increases or tax cuts is seen as absolute frivolous waste! there is far too much consensus sought in this country, I mean you read the ignorant opinions of many who dont have a clue what they are talking about, then the media who you would think would be educated and educated on the subject;s they write about are either 1) talking complete sh*t or 2) tell the people what they want to hear (as its all about selling at the end of the day)

    The M50 shambles would be alleviated a lot with a proper north south line, linking swords and bray. The decisions to stall the MN that has planning for €200,000,000 a year in "savings" is outrageous, thats what the cost of much of the gridlock in Dublin is, €200,000,000 a year (a huge amount of which would have simply went back to government coffers). Postponing DU also for mickey mouse money again, it is all irrelevance money at the end of the day. The "savings" from re-designing both of these projects, would have been covered by the money they magiced up for this give away budget!

    If for political reasons they didnt want to go with original metro north, re-secure power and start it then. I couldnt give a toss what some ignorant people outside of Dublin (the golden goose) think, they dont have to live with the grid lock, criminal infrastructure for a european capital) and the impact it has on quality of life...
    Over on another thread where I suggested building of a QBC/BRT route in Cork City in a bid to tackle congestion two interesting posters responded:

    One claimed it shouldn't be done because it'd only mean poor people getting where they need to go faster than people who own cars.

    Another said that they once were left waiting an hour on a bus and there was no point in investing in the service until the service improved :rolleyes:

    These are average Corkonians and Cork is the second largest city in the state so you would expect red neck cliché to be minimal but there you go, we a re a low IQ nation.


  • #54
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    One of the biggest opponents of infrastructure development in air travel too - was vocal against T2 and planning for extra capacity in advance of it actually being needed.
    To be fair, O'Leary was only critical of HOW it was being done(costs, generally hating the DAA etc). Indeed, he/Ryanair even wanted to build the second terminal themselves but were refused.


  • #55
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    To be fair, O'Leary was only critical of HOW it was being done(costs, generally hating the DAA etc). Indeed, he/Ryanair even wanted to build the second terminal themselves but were refused.

    In other words he wanted a cheapo version of Pier D that Ryanair could control and use to squeeze competition out.


  • #56
    Macy0161
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,487 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    To be fair, O'Leary was only critical of HOW it was being done(costs, generally hating the DAA etc). Indeed, he/Ryanair even wanted to build the second terminal themselves but were refused.
    Wanted to build and control it - everyone else should be happy with T1. I've used both, and I know which one I prefer - it isn't the old one, never mind some Ryanair model of a terminal.


  • #57
    MrMorooka
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 710 ✭✭✭MrMorooka


    Canadel wrote: »
    No announcement from Irish Rail and no way of being forewarned of this change before tagging on or buying a ticket as there is no schedule info available apart from on the platform, and the online timetable was as per usual.

    Except :
    https://twitter.com/IrishRail/status/669427510204084224

    It's not a schedule change, it was a delay. Presumably the train you were waiting on was the one that encountered the points fault, which probably happened only a couple of minutes down the line at Glasnevin, so there was not much opportunity to forewarn you.


  • #58
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    Wanted to build and control it - everyone else should be happy with T1. I've used both, and I know which one I prefer - it isn't the old one, never mind some Ryanair model of a terminal.

    Oh of course. You'd never expect him to look out for anyone else's interest. I was just pointing out that he want against the idea.


  • #59
    dissed doc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    its crap because anything that isn't welfare increases, PS pay increases or tax cuts is seen as absolute frivolous waste! there is far too much consensus sought in this country,....

    The M50 shambles would be alleviated a lot with a proper north south line, linking swords and bray. .....

    they dont have to live with the grid lock, criminal infrastructure for a european capital) and the impact it has on quality of life...

    In fairness, there is minimal consensus in Ireland with regard to infrastructure. The government handed the private sector companies literally almost infinite ways to screw the regular working person, for example, in the how the M50 and the tolls worked, at enormous infinite ongoing expense to every user every day, instead of the public sector taking it over as a state function. Likewise, the Shell fiasco and it being raffled off for a couple of pints by two TDs. Likewise the motorways and tolls.

    The government has given the private sector free hand to exploit people as a resource. Very little consensus was ever sought, and your example of the M50, is exactly what happens with private sector companies hold too much influence. The government has no interest or need to ensure a state-regulated and managed system, because historically, they have been for decades trying to privatise everything - the failed UHI health care system, the Telecom Eireann and later fiascos with Denis O Brien, etc.,.

    Encouraging the state to beat down for decades on the public sector services and then wondering why the state doesn't magic up a new public sector service is a bit rich.


  • #60
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    lawlolawl wrote: »
    Any time we get a few pound we flitter it away on nonsense vanity projects or use it to borrow off of to fuel another credit meltdown once we realise we have to pay back ten times more money than we started with.

    Ironically DU and MN were described by gobshytes as "vanity projects". Politicians and journalists.

    In any other half a brain country, projects like them would've been described as "critical infrastructure of national importance".


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  • #61
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Slightly off topic, but where I am based (Limerick City), Michael Noonan has allocated something like 18 million euro to build a footbridge that serves no function whatsoever. There's actually an existing footbridge less than 50 metres away. This is one of many vanity projects that happen around the State and that mean that key infrastructural projects don't happen. Personally I think it should be a national scandal but the press haven't cottoned on to it yet.


  • #62
    clear thinking
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    Tram and rail infrastructure costs, the rolling stock breaks even so capital is never repaid.

    The Scandinavians fund the capital cost through high tax, for example on car sales. There's no rocket science needed, just the willingness to do it.

    A luas line costing €800m would probably require c. €5k per new car, for a year, so you could do one such project a year or finance multiple projects over multiple years

    Wont happen though.


  • #63
    Canadel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭Canadel


    MrMorooka wrote: »
    Except :
    https://twitter.com/IrishRail/status/669427510204084224

    It's not a schedule change, it was a delay. Presumably the train you were waiting on was the one that encountered the points fault, which probably happened only a couple of minutes down the line at Glasnevin, so there was not much opportunity to forewarn you.
    Thanks. That's fair enough. Just a bad run of luck recently. My post wasn't meant as a criticism of Irish Rail really, it was just a personal rant. Dublin Bus is great and Irish Rail isn't as bad as some say.


  • #64
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Spotted this gem in the Galway City forum:

    "It's a step backwards for society to be forced onto buses, closing streets etc when we have cars to bring us around"

    It'd make you want to leave for a more intelligent society.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057527113&page=2


  • #65
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    zulutango wrote: »
    Slightly off topic, but where I am based (Limerick City), Michael Noonan has allocated something like 18 million euro to build a footbridge that serves no function whatsoever. There's actually an existing footbridge less than 50 metres away. This is one of many vanity projects that happen around the State and that mean that key infrastructural projects don't happen. Personally I think it should be a national scandal but the press haven't cottoned on to it yet.

    Any links? Honestly, it sounds very unlikely. Things like this don't get done on a whim, and require a raft of approvals and involvement of other people, including local authorities (who are often controlled by parties other than govt parties).


  • #66
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Any links? Honestly, it sounds very unlikely. Things like this don't get done on a whim, and require a raft of approvals and involvement of other people, including local authorities (who are often controlled by parties other than govt parties).

    Believe me, it's true. Noonan, since he took on the Finance port folio, has expedited quite a few things in the city. Some are good (although I agree that's not how things should happen), and others are terrible.

    Here's a link. The city manager references Bord Failte as having faith in the proposal, but this is a nonsense. No evidence has been produced to support the claim. They're simply being used as a vehicle to channel the money. The local politicians have sanctioned the initial funding but it's controlled by a FG-FF pact so it's no surprise they went along with it.

    http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/business-news/council-chief-defends-proposed-18m-footbridge-for-limerick-1-6805524


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  • #67
    CiboC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 534 ✭✭✭CiboC


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    I've used both, and I know which one I prefer - it isn't the old one, never mind some Ryanair model of a terminal.

    I use both too and I far prefer T1!

    T2 is a shambles - you arrive in the middle and have to go downstairs to check in, queue in that ridiculous Aer Lingus conga line where everyone has to go regardless of when their flight is. Then you have to go back past where you came in so you can go upstairs again.

    After security there is far too much space devoted to sucking money out of you instead of providing more boarding gates, and you still have to walk for ages to get to the gates anyway - which are all downstairs again.

    I've travelled through airports all over the world and very few bounce you around like a yoyo the way T2 does....


  • #68
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,938 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    CiboC wrote: »
    I use both too and I far prefer T1!

    T2 is a shambles - you arrive in the middle and have to go downstairs to check in, queue in that ridiculous Aer Lingus conga line where everyone has to go regardless of when their flight is. Then you have to go back past where you came in so you can go upstairs again.

    After security there is far too much space devoted to sucking money out of you instead of providing more boarding gates, and you still have to walk for ages to get to the gates anyway - which are all downstairs again.

    I've travelled through airports all over the world and very few bounce you around like a yoyo the way T2 does....

    What level you enter the T2 terminal building depends upon how you arrive.

    Anyone using local public transport or car park buses will be dropped at check-in level so no problems there.

    Also, suggesting that the retailers take up space for boarding gates is absurd. There is no space on the ramp for more aircraft stands - when they are added they will be on a new pier at the eastern side of the terminal.

    Getting through the retail space in T2 is a breeze - you can easily ignore it, while you now have much greater exposure to it in T1 since the refurbishments were completed.

    I'd also point out that said retail space is part of what pays for the airport in the first place - remember DAA self-finance.


  • #69
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    I've only flew to T2 4 times since it was built and honestly found the delays for luggage insane. Twice I've been waiting 20-25 minutes at the belt, twice over 30 mins.

    When flying to T1 I'm only waiting 5 minutes most times or 10 at the very most.

    The whole "winding left, right, left, right, left corridor" approach to retail in T1 so you can't walk straight through and are forced to look at what they are selling is becoming more and more common, it was like that at Stansted last month as well.


  • #70
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,406 ✭✭✭plodder


    zulutango wrote: »
    Slightly off topic, but where I am based (Limerick City), Michael Noonan has allocated something like 18 million euro to build a footbridge that serves no function whatsoever. There's actually an existing footbridge less than 50 metres away. This is one of many vanity projects that happen around the State and that mean that key infrastructural projects don't happen. Personally I think it should be a national scandal but the press haven't cottoned on to it yet.
    This is way off topic, but funnily enough, I was in Limerick doing the tourist thing over the Summer, and when walking from the river to St. John's castle, it seemed strange that there wasn't a direct route that brought you along the river. Dunno whether a bridge is the right answer, but it could be quite attractive.

    Regarding that other off-topic discussion T1 vs T2, I think the nay-sayers, including Michael O'Leary, have been proved wrong with it. It has generated a lot of transit business that nobody really expected and it is hard to imagine how horrible it would be to have only T1 available today.


  • #71
    CiboC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 534 ✭✭✭CiboC


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Also, suggesting that the retailers take up space for boarding gates is absurd. There is no space on the ramp for more aircraft stands - when they are added they will be on a new pier at the eastern side of the terminal.

    There is no space due to the way the terminal is designed. Most large airports have given up on the idea of having every aircraft connected to the terminal with a jet bridge. You could have boarding gates where you are taken by bus to your aircraft on a remote stand. It works in airports all over the world and would work in Dublin too.


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  • #72
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    lxflyer wrote: »
    What level you enter the T2 terminal building depends upon how you arrive.

    Anyone using local public transport or car park buses will be dropped at check-in level so no problems there.

    Also, suggesting that the retailers take up space for boarding gates is absurd. There is no space on the ramp for more aircraft stands - when they are added they will be on a new pier at the eastern side of the terminal.

    Getting through the retail space in T2 is a breeze - you can easily ignore it, while you now have much greater exposure to it in T1 since the refurbishments were completed.

    I'd also point out that said retail space is part of what pays for the airport in the first place - remember DAA self-finance.

    Some people, especially Irish people, just like dark old fashioned spaces, have you ever seen the offerings of daft.ie?


  • #73
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,938 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    CiboC wrote: »
    There is no space due to the way the terminal is designed. Most large airports have given up on the idea of having every aircraft connected to the terminal with a jet bridge. You could have boarding gates where you are taken by bus to your aircraft on a remote stand. It works in airports all over the world and would work in Dublin too.

    Have you examined the IAA airport diagram to come up with that conclusion?

    Space for more stands would be non-existent.

    As for your comment on not using airbridges, I must be dreaming at every large airport I've flown to and boarded/disembarked by airbridges.

    Heathrow's brand new terminals 2 and 5 certainly don't comply with that theory, nor do Barcelona, Madrid, Paris CDG, Schipol, Zurich, Gatwick, Frankfurt.

    Passengers on EI Regional are generally bussed to their aircraft at Dublin.

    Unless you're thinking about Ryanair?


  • #74
    zulutango
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    plodder wrote:
    This is way off topic, but funnily enough, I was in Limerick doing the tourist thing over the Summer, and when walking from the river to St. John's castle, it seemed strange that there wasn't a direct route that brought you along the river. Dunno whether a bridge is the right answer, but it could be quite attractive.


    Ahem ... King John's Castle! He was the Norman king of England (aka Prince John in the Robin Hood fable) in 1197 when the castle was built. Ever so slightly off topic ..


  • #75
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,406 ✭✭✭plodder


    zulutango wrote: »
    Ahem ... King John's Castle! He was the Norman king of England (aka Prince John in the Robin Hood fable) in 1197 when the castle was built. Ever so slightly off topic ..
    oops.. ignorant tourist :o


  • #76
    CiboC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 534 ✭✭✭CiboC


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Heathrow's brand new terminals 2 and 5 certainly don't comply with that theory, nor do Barcelona, Madrid, Paris CDG, Schipol, Zurich, Gatwick, Frankfurt.

    You must be using these airports in different space/time continuum to me as I regularly fly to and transit through CDG, Schipol and Frankfurt and have been bussed to and from the terminals on many occasions....


  • #77
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    I think I'd be safe to say that Dublin is better served airport wise than it is with other public transport (aside from getting to/from the bloody place). So maybe other things are more worthy of debate?

    What projects/ideas for public transport in Dublin would people most like to see happening?


  • #78
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,938 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    CiboC wrote: »
    You must be using these airports in different space/time continuum to me as I regularly fly to and transit through CDG, Schipol and Frankfurt and have been bussed to and from the terminals on many occasions....

    Indeed Cityjet use remote stands at CDG and always have. Frankfurt have a mix.

    The vast majority of flights still go from connected stands.

    But to suggest that major airports are suddenly now ditching airbridges is just pure nonsense.

    Add to that the fact that right now T2 has enough stands - the only time it is full is for the first wave of morning flights.

    In time the new east pier will be needed, but again the original reference to the retail element taking up too much space is pure nonsense in that context.


  • #79
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    What projects/ideas for public transport in Dublin would people most like to see happening?

    Well DART Underground and Metro North are the key to revolutionizing pt in Dublin, I look forward to unseating the current transport minister over this failing.


  • #80
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Another point with Dublin is the price. It is cheaper for me to drive into the city centre and park on a Saturday in Connolly station, than to take the train there.


  • #81
    Chivito550
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Lots of interesting replies here so far. Thanks.

    Despite all the negativity, there are some positive developments of late right?

    1) LUAS Cross City – Now the Green Line will be linked up with not just the red line, and the city centre, but also the Maynooth and M3 Parkway lines.
    2) Re-opening of Phoenix Park tunnel – Now people commuting from Country Kildare, Clondalkin etc can access Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara St, Pearse St and Grand Canal Dock, and it will link up with the DART and Maynooth/MP3 Parkway lines. I can’t understand why this wasn’t done up to now but this is definitely a good development. Also, somebody living in Drumcondra area working in Grand Canal can commute this so easily, without having to change to a DART.

    So the above maybe push us up from 3/10 to 4/10.


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  • #82
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,938 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    I think I'd be safe to say that Dublin is better served airport wise than it is with other public transport (aside from getting to/from the bloody place). So maybe other things are more worthy of debate?

    What projects/ideas for public transport in Dublin would people most like to see happening?

    Apart from what is happening (Phoenix Park Tunnel, City Centre Re-signalling, 10 minute DART and LUAS cross-city):
    - DART underground
    - Four tracking Northern Line where possible between Connolly and Howth Junction
    - Implement a 24 hour bus route on each QBC
    - Further improve upon Network Direct - increase frequency of bus services on each QBC and develop new routes where possible
    - Metro North
    - Metro South from SSG to Tallaght via Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham, and Knocklyon
    - DART to the Airport
    - Develop a second bus station for regional services in Dublin city centre
    - Implement increased bus priority where possible across the city
    - Implement improved network of orbital bus routes including peak hour Xpresso services
    - Develop network of local bus routes serving Dublin Airport from across North Dublin
    - Develop BRT where possible but on shorter routes than originally planned
    - Develop a network of Park & Ride sites on major routes into the city with public transport to/from the city included in the parking rate


  • #83
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    lxflyer wrote: »
    - DART underground
    - Four tracking Northern Line where possible between Connolly and Howth Junction
    - Implement a 24 hour bus route on each QBC
    - Metro North
    - Metro South from SSG to Tallaght via Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham, and Knocklyon
    - DART to the Airport
    - Develop a second bus station for regional services in Dublin city centre
    - Implement increased bus priority where possible across the city
    - Implement improved network of orbital bus routes including peak hour Xpresso services
    - Develop network of local bus routes serving Dublin Airport from across North Dublin
    - Develop BRT where possible but on shorter routes than originally planned
    - Develop a network of Park & Ride sites on major routes into the city with public transport to/from the city included in the parking rate

    I would add to this orbital BRT/QBC routes outside and parallel to the M50

    and widespread pedestrianisation in the centre where possible, then bring in congestion charging. Then I think we'd be a top City for sustainable transport.


  • #84
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,938 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Lots of interesting replies here so far. Thanks.

    Despite all the negativity, there are some positive developments of late right?

    1) LUAS Cross City – Now the Green Line will be linked up with not just the red line, and the city centre, but also the Maynooth and M3 Parkway lines.
    2) Re-opening of Phoenix Park tunnel – Now people commuting from Country Kildare, Clondalkin etc can access Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara St, Pearse St and Grand Canal Dock, and it will link up with the DART and Maynooth/MP3 Parkway lines. I can’t understand why this wasn’t done up to now but this is definitely a good development. Also, somebody living in Drumcondra area working in Grand Canal can commute this so easily, without having to change to a DART.

    So the above maybe push us up from 3/10 to 4/10.



    People go on and on about connecting the two LUAS lines - frankly that is not such a huge priority - I don't see there being huge numbers transferring between the two. People can already do the trip from Heuston to SSG using a single bus (25a/b, 145).


    I also don't see huge numbers transferring from the Maynooth line to the Green Line unless they have to, given that they will have to pay a second fare (albeit with a €1 discount), and that they can get to Pearse without paying twice. Returning, it would be very difficult to predict when to get on a tram to get to Broombridge in time for a train (no tram timetable), whereas it is much easier for most users to predict how long it will take to walk to one of the three city centre stations.


    While the PPT plan is a positive one, I would have to point out that someone living in Drumcondra will be able to take a Maynooth line train to Grand Canal Dock when the City Centre re-signalling project is completed - it won't need the occasional trains from the Kildare line to do that (remember that will be only 1 train per hour off-peak and 2 per hour at peak). All of the Maynooth and Northern line trains that currently terminate at Pearse will extend to Grand Canal Dock to use the new turnback platform.


  • #85
    Chivito550
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    lxflyer wrote: »
    People go on and on about connecting the two LUAS lines - frankly that is not such a huge priority - I don't see there being huge numbers transferring between the two. People can already do the trip from Heuston to SSG using a single bus (25a/b, 145).


    I also don't see huge numbers transferring from the Maynooth line to the Green Line unless they have to, given that they will have to pay a second fare (albeit with a €1 discount), and that they can get to Pearse without paying twice. Returning, it would be very difficult to predict when to get on a tram to get to Broombridge in time for a train (no tram timetable), whereas it is much easier for most users to predict how long it will take to walk to one of the three city centre stations.


    While the PPT plan is a positive one, I would have to point out that someone living in Drumcondra will be able to take a Maynooth line train to Grand Canal Dock when the City Centre re-signalling project is completed - it won't need the occasional trains from the Kildare line to do that (remember that will be only 1 train per hour off-peak and 2 per hour at peak). All of the Maynooth and Northern line trains that currently terminate at Pearse will extend to Grand Canal Dock to use the new turnback platform.

    Has work started on this re-signalling? When is it due to be completed?


  • #86
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,938 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Has work started on this re-signalling? When is it due to be completed?

    Yes it is ongoing - so far the lines between Malahide/Howth and Killester have been completed.

    Currently the focus is on the section between Connolly and Grand Canal Dock, and the track is currently being re-modelled at Grand Canal Dock. This involves the northbound platform switching sides of the island platform, and the current northbound platform becoming a turnback platform for Northern Line, Maynooth and Kildare line trains. This will mean that the number of conflicting movements will greatly reduce in number.

    It's due to finish around summer/autumn next year.

    The Phoenix Park Tunnel services cannot start until the re-signalling project is completed as it will increase the number of trains that may cross the loop line bridge between Connolly and Grand Canal Dock each hour.


  • #87
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    lxflyer wrote: »
    ...
    - Metro South from SSG to Tallaght via Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham, and Knocklyon
    - DART to the Airport
    ...
    - Develop a network of Park & Ride sites on major routes into the city with public transport to/from the city included in the parking rate

    I'd definitely think there should be a ( or some) metro serving the southside. I'm unsure if it should go to Tallaght

    Again Dart to the Airport, A bus could with some imagination in sharing the tramlines/bus priority on the North Quays easily be faster than a train.

    If there was decent PT to the city centre, I'd rephrase this as allowing a nominal parking rate, so as to allow people living nearby get the PT rate, without the car parking rate.


    Lastly I'd look for a PT/Ped/Cycling bridge from D15 to Lucan. The Liffey is a big roadblock above Islandbridge.


  • #88
    1huge1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,174 ✭✭✭1huge1


    zulutango wrote: »
    Slightly off topic, but where I am based (Limerick City), Michael Noonan has allocated something like 18 million euro to build a footbridge that serves no function whatsoever. There's actually an existing footbridge less than 50 metres away. This is one of many vanity projects that happen around the State and that mean that key infrastructural projects don't happen. Personally I think it should be a national scandal but the press haven't cottoned on to it yet.

    To be fair, it wasn't Michael Noonan but the city council, but thats a seperate issue


  • #89
    1huge1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,174 ✭✭✭1huge1


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Lots of interesting replies here so far. Thanks.

    Despite all the negativity, there are some positive developments of late right?
    Also, somebody living in Drumcondra area working in Grand Canal can commute this so easily, without having to change to a DART.

    So the above maybe push us up from 3/10 to 4/10.

    As somebody currently living in Drumcondra and getting the train to Grand Canal Dock, I can assure you it is an unmitigated disaster.

    I get the train every morning from Drumcondra to Grand Canal Dock (direct Maynooth-Bray commuter train once in the morning and back in the evening), it is only going 4 stops yet often takes 25mins, congestion on the line means about 70% of the journey is spent not moving.

    I am in favour of reopening the Phoenix Park Tunnel dont get me wrong, but I can't help but feel it is going to make things even more slower.

    Just out of pure boredom I wrote down on my phone how late 17:34 train is arriving at Grand Canal Dock train (coming from Bray and going to Mayooth) the last 3 months, the average is 17:45...


  • #90
    PolaroidPizza
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭PolaroidPizza


    the number one reason most people my age don't get the bus or train is because it is cheaper to drive.
    nobody wants to admit that, because it gives the powers that be a green light to increase parking, clamping, tolls and motor tax rates.
    what actually it should do is ask people why these services are designed to break even on costs?
    is the point of public transport to take people out of cars and not to provide a revenue stream?

    the cost of doing business could drop significantly if traffic wasn't such a problem in the city, but that's a long term benefit to giving the semi-states a bigger budget, and no department is allowed wait for long term benefits.


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  • #91
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,232 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    PolaroidPizza wrote: »
    the number one reason most people my age don't get the bus or train is because it is cheaper to drive.
    depends very much on your circumstances. i live on the northside of dublin and work on the southside. it's cheaper for me to get a yearly bus and luas ticket, even before you allow for the tax aspect of it.


  • #92
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    PolaroidPizza wrote: »
    the number one reason most people my age don't get the bus or train is because it is cheaper to drive.
    nobody wants to admit that, because it gives the powers that be a green light to increase parking, clamping, tolls and motor tax rates.
    what actually it should do is ask people why these services are designed to break even on costs?
    is the point of public transport to take people out of cars and not to provide a revenue stream?

    the cost of doing business could drop significantly if traffic wasn't such a problem in the city, but that's a long term benefit to giving the semi-states a bigger budget, and no department is allowed wait for long term benefits.

    It's an interesting point that the economics of this never gets discussed fairly.

    Public transport is seen as a huge financial drain but the subsidies paid to PT companies should be compared to how much of a loss there is in creating/maintaining the road network.


  • #93
    Bray Head
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 896 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    Here's a few brief answers to your questions:

    Dublin Bus are incapable of implementing basic operational efficiencies such as fewer stops, time-based ticketing, a useable timetable and using middle doors. This could improve journey times by 10% to 30% at very little cost. Dublin Bus is the most used mode in Dublin. I really think that reform efforts should start with the bus network as this is where there is most bang for buck.

    Quality of coverage of public transport project in Ireland is exceptionally poor in the mainstream media (unless there's a strike). No one has any idea that public capital spend in Ireland as a share of GDP is pretty much the lowest in the developed world, while at the same time natural population growth is close to highest.

    There are no large Irish firms that make tunnelling equipment, do very large-scale civil engineering or manufacture plant. In countries where these firms are domestically owned there is a tendency for these kinds of projects to get prioritised more. Politicians can see the benefit in terms of jobs and profits flowing back to local firms.


  • #94
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,938 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Bray Head wrote: »
    Here's a few brief answers to your questions:

    Dublin Bus are incapable of implementing basic operational efficiencies such as fewer stops, time-based ticketing, a useable timetable and using middle doors. This could improve journey times by 10% to 30% at very little cost. Dublin Bus is the most used mode in Dublin. I really think that reform efforts should start with the bus network as this is where there is most bang for buck.

    Quality of coverage of public transport project in Ireland is exceptionally poor in the mainstream media (unless there's a strike). No one has any idea that public capital spend in Ireland as a share of GDP is pretty much the lowest in the developed world, while at the same time natural population growth is close to highest.

    There are no large Irish firms that make tunnelling equipment, do very large-scale civil engineering or manufacture plant. In countries where these firms are domestically owned there is a tendency for these kinds of projects to get prioritised more. Politicians can see the benefit in terms of jobs and profits flowing back to local firms.

    The NTA are responsible for ticketing - not Dublin Bus. They do offer LEAP90 discount, but have shown little appetite for expanding to time based ticketing. That may change when farebox revenue goes to the NTA, but while it still goes to the operators I really don't see that happening as it would create a myriad of funding issues.

    As for timetables, I think it fair to point out that timetables have een changed to standard interval departures on virtually all routes. Again, the NTA are now responsible for defining the periods of operation of bus services in Dublin.

    The old chestnut of fewer stops comes up again. The people who post this most seem to focus only on commuter bus services, forgetting that it's a bus service for everyone.

    I would argue that there is more scope for adding more limited stop commuter services, rather than implementing removal of bus stops. Sure there are some locations where stops could be merged, but frankly they are far less in number than some people seem to think.


  • #95
    Yakkyda
    Site Banned Posts: 167 ✭✭Yakkyda


    Whilst I largely agree with the op, it's hardly such a massive walk from the end of the green line(stephens green) to the dart(pearse street)

    Although of course it beggars belief that the two lines weren't originally linked at a time when there was money in the coffers to pay for it. I suspect city centre bussiness were putting up a lot of resistance due to the perception of lost business and traffic disruption. In the end, it was a boon for most and I don't think it affected many of them during the construction back then.


  • #96
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    depends very much on your circumstances. i live on the northside of dublin and work on the southside. it's cheaper for me to get a yearly bus and luas ticket, even before you allow for the tax aspect of it.

    But do you own a car?


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  • #97
    stuartkee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 297 ✭✭stuartkee


    Why get on to boards though ??


  • #98
    Bray Head
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 896 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The NTA are responsible for ticketing - not Dublin Bus. They do offer LEAP90 discount, but have shown little appetite for expanding to time based ticketing. That may change when farebox revenue goes to the NTA, but while it still goes to the operators I really don't see that happening as it would create a myriad of funding issues.

    As for timetables, I think it fair to point out that timetables have een changed to standard interval departures on virtually all routes. Again, the NTA are now responsible for defining the periods of operation of bus services in Dublin.

    The old chestnut of fewer stops comes up again. The people who post this most seem to focus only on commuter bus services, forgetting that it's a bus service for everyone.

    I would argue that there is more scope for adding more limited stop commuter services, rather than implementing removal of bus stops. Sure there are some locations where stops could be merged, but frankly they are far less in number than some people seem to think.

    I mean the following in the politest possible sense, as you are an extremely constructive poster across a range of issues. But your post above is reflective of a bureaucratic mindset which throws up a stream of micro-obstacles that aggregate into a big mess.

    I take your point that the NTA are now nominally in charge of the network. But it is a system built chaotically over several generations by Dublin Bus. And (from what I can tell) any reform is both slow and piecemeal once DB management and unions get involved.

    Re the bus stops I would gladly sacrifice the one actually outside my house for a 200 metre walk to the next one, if it would speed up the service.

    In short: I live and work in places where DB coverage and frequency is probably at its best. It is still far slower than bike, slower than car and I can keep up on foot on a wet December morning. Why am I funding a service through my taxes that even someone as well placed as me to use its services refuses to?


  • #99
    1huge1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,174 ✭✭✭1huge1


    Yakkyda wrote: »
    Whilst I largely agree with the op, it's hardly such a massive walk from the end of the green line(stephens green) to the dart(pearse street)
    That is a 10-15 minute walk (14mins according to google maps), add in to the fact that you may be waiting for the Luas/Train when you arrive at either destination.

    In terms of a daily commute, that is very large.

    A much more manageable option will become available when the Luas Cross City Line opens and the walk between Tara Street and and the Westmoreland Street Stop (<5min walk)


  • #100
    Chivito550
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Yakkyda wrote: »
    Whilst I largely agree with the op, it's hardly such a massive walk from the end of the green line(stephens green) to the dart(pearse street)

    It’s about 10 minutes. You wouldn’t have to do this in any other Western European capital. That’s my point. For example, I work on Harcourt St, roughly half way between Harcourt and Stephens green stops. I was heading out to Grand Canal dock area to meet some friends before U2 last Monday after work. It was quicker for me to walk 25 minutes, than it would have been to get public transport there. And this is 2 major areas pretty close to the centre of the city. The alternative was to get a bus on Camden St, and wait for a 1 or 77a, which are not very frequent. Because of the walk between LUAS and DART there was no purpose to getting a DART out. At least after the Cross City is done, the walk to Tara St (or Dawson to Pearse) will be about half that currently from Stephens Green to Pearse.


  • #101
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,938 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Bray Head wrote: »
    I mean the following in the politest possible sense, as you are an extremely constructive poster across a range of issues. But your post above is reflective of a bureaucratic mindset which throws up a stream of micro-obstacles that aggregate into a big mess.

    I take your point that the NTA are now nominally in charge of the network. But it is a system built chaotically over several generations by Dublin Bus. And (from what I can tell) any reform is both slow and piecemeal once DB management and unions get involved.

    Re the bus stops I would gladly sacrifice the one actually outside my house for a 200 metre walk to the next one, if it would speed up the service.

    In short: I live and work in places where DB coverage and frequency is probably at its best. It is still far slower than bike, slower than car and I can keep up on foot on a wet December morning. Why am I funding a service through my taxes that even someone as well placed as me to use its services refuses to?

    With respect - you are missing the point.

    Re the NTA - I was correcting your point regarding who was responsible - it is important to get that right.

    As for a "chaotic network" - we've just gone through a complete network re-design - I'm not really sure what you're expecting (apart from a redesign and increase in the number of orbital services).

    As for ticketing, the issue of funding public transport is key to how it operates. Changing how the ticketing works will have an impact on fare box revenues. That will affect the company finances, which are all in a precarious state. Someone will end up paying for it.

    Now I am sorry if that comes across as a "bureaucratic mindset", but I tend to think that ensuring that the companies are adequately financed is kind of important, given that they are operating essential services. And given our politicians have been cutting expenditure, maintaining fare box revenue has become even more important. I'm being realistic about this.

    That's also why you can see that the moves towards fare structure simplification is done in such a phased manner. The NTA are trying to avoid any large shocks to the finances.

    With regard to bus stops, you may happily give up a stop, but other people may have had to walk a distance to reach that stop from their homes. It's not as simple as just removing stops for the sake of it.

    There are indeed stops that could be merged, but I'll repeat that they are far fewer than you might think. It's a city bus service - not an express service.

    That's why I would be of the opinion there is scope for developing more peak hour Xpresso services and ultimately BRT rather than mass culling of bus stops.


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