Bus Strike (read warning in post #1)

Stevek101 · 02-04-2015 2:32pm

dublindiehard wrote: »

So you agree that DB staff are on approx 40k for a full 5 day week before overtime and other perks apart from shift allowance are included?

6k more than the average industrial wage from the other link you posted?

Average wage company wide in 2013 was over 46,000.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/2430/2013EnglishAnnualReport.pdf

That will increase this year as the cost cutting plan ceases that combined with NBRU looking for wage increases. We might get close to Luxembourg levels of pay soon enough. Funny that London wages fair well on that international analysis on the above link.

end of the road wrote: »

is there anywhere in the world where transport fares go down rather then up? is there anywhere apart from ireland where the subsidy has been continuously cut meaning the passenger will have to make up the shortfall and would do so whatever the drivers were payed?

In Estonia public transport is now free for locals.

end of the road · 02-04-2015 2:37pm

dublindiehard wrote: »

So you agree that DB staff are on approx 40k for a full 5 day week before overtime and other perks apart from shift allowance are included?

6k more than the average industrial wage from the other link you posted?

no, from my reading all those are included in that 40k

antoinolachtnai · 02-04-2015 2:37pm

It does appear from the DB annual report that the average salary for the whole organization is

147,241,000 euros / 3172 employees

= 46,418 euros / employee

Employees' PRSI is seemingly listed separately as 'Social Welfare Costs'

(page 31, http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/2430/2013EnglishAnnualReport.pdf)

Stevek101 · 02-04-2015 2:40pm

It is a fact that Dublin Bus drivers are in the top two of highest paid in Europe along with a wage well above that of the average industrial wage here in Ireland. Anyone saying anything different is telling serious untruths.

Alun · 02-04-2015 2:50pm

Using a simple average for something that doesn't follow a normal distribution like wages in an organisation can be misleading. The median would be more relevant here.

dublindiehard · 02-04-2015 2:54pm

end of the road wrote: »

no, from my reading all those are included in that 40k

No, it says including shift.

Therefore we can only assume it includes that.

There is no way that overtime can be factored into advertised salaary because it is not constant and cannot be guranteed and job ads generally only show money that you will get for sure for salary and if there are conditions they are stated.

dublindiehard · 02-04-2015 2:55pm

Alun wrote: »

Using a simple average for something that doesn't follow a normal distribution like wages in an organisation can be misleading. The median would be more relevant here.

The reason people often quote the average, is because it is a verifiable figure in audited accounts therefore is known to be true, even if it is not perfect way to calculate.

dublindiehard · 02-04-2015 3:06pm

end of the road wrote: »

is there anywhere in the world where transport fares go down rather then up? is there anywhere apart from ireland where the subsidy has been continuously cut meaning the passenger will have to make up the shortfall and would do so whatever the drivers were payed?

Increased wages = higher costs

higher costs = more revenue required to cover shortfall

Basic economics.

Subisdy has been cut, but then again the number of buses operated has also been cut.

woodrow wyatt · 02-04-2015 3:09pm

dublindiehard wrote: »

So you agree that DB staff are on approx 40k for a full 5 day week before overtime and other perks apart from shift allowance are included?

6k more than the average industrial wage from the other link you posted?

I have two drivers sitting right in front of me right now and am showing them this discussion. to be honest that are a little bewildered at the attitude of some of the posts, none the less they are explaining things to me.
As the wages on the DB website
€769.74 a week max when you work Sunday.
Work 2 Sundays out of 5.
They get about €100 extra for working aSunday.
We shall use K.I.S.S here so 20 weeks a year at €769.74 and the rest at the rate of pay minus Sunday premium.
20 x €769.74=15,394.80
32 x €669.74=21,431.68
for a combined total of €36,826.48
Far from the €50k+ some claim here.

cdebru · 02-04-2015 3:15pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It does appear from the DB annual report that the average salary for the whole organization is

147,241,000 euros / 3172 employees

= 46,418 euros / employee

Employees' PRSI is seemingly listed separately as 'Social Welfare Costs'

(page 31, http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/2430/2013EnglishAnnualReport.pdf)

Average is a useless statistic the rates of pay for Dublin Bus drivers are published on their own website in the ad looking for drivers. that is the maximum figure you can earn for working a shift pattern 5 days a week including 2 sundays out of 5, some drivers don't work any Sundays so their pay would be approx €2000 less per year, the average pay rate for the entire company does not reflect average driver pay and it is a ridiculous slant to try and paint it as average driver wages, it includes 1000 employees who aren't drivers the majority of whom are on higher wage rates than Drivers including inspectors, chief inspectors, depot manager, admin managers, area managers, head office, executives, clerical, mechanics, etc etc

It should also be noted that the 48 hour maximum working week applies in DB so 46k would be about the maximum anyone could earn IF they worked all the overtime they were allowed and it was always available, the vast majority of DB drivers do little to any overtime so they earn the basic rates as published on the DB website.

antoinolachtnai · 02-04-2015 3:19pm

1000 non-driving employees to operate a fleet of 900-odd fairly new buses seems like an awful lot.

dublindiehard · 02-04-2015 3:28pm

Last accounts are 3172 employees.

cdebru · 02-04-2015 3:29pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

It is a fact that Dublin Bus drivers are in the top two of highest paid in Europe along with a wage well above that of the average industrial wage here in Ireland. Anyone saying anything different is telling serious untruths.

No basic salary is about 31.5 to 32k there is a shift allowance for working shifts which brings it up to about 36k, then if you work sundays its about another 2k/2.5k, but basic pay is below the average industrial wage which doesn't include shift allowance as basic pay, Irish pay rates were roughly the same as the UK before the recession when the euro was about 1.50 to 1, QE reduced the exchange rate on Sterling thats the difference.
We also have the 3rd highest minimum wage rate in the EU, there are reasons for that it is not just that our government is mightily generous is setting the minimum wage, our social welfare rates are also among the highest, etc etc it is not just bus drivers wages that are higher, go and have a look at the average wage rate for your own job and then come back and tell us are you overpaid ?

Stevek101 · 02-04-2015 3:31pm

cdebru wrote: »

No basic salary is about 31.5 to 32k there is a shift allowance for working shifts which brings it up to about 36k, then if you work sundays its about another 2k/2.5k, but basic pay is below the average industrial wage which doesn't include shift allowance as basic pay, Irish pay rates were roughly the same as the UK before the recession when the euro was about 1.50 to 1, QE reduced the exchange rate on Sterling thats the difference.
We also have the 3rd highest minimum wage rate in the EU, there are reasons for that it is not just that our government is mightily generous is setting the minimum wage, our social welfare rates are also among the highest, etc etc it is not just bus drivers wages that are higher, go and have a look at the average wage rate for your own job and then come back and tell us are you overpaid ?

So the new part time drivers are better paid?

woodrow wyatt · 02-04-2015 3:31pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

In Estonia public transport is now free for locals.

Nothing is free.
“It is easier to waiver the ticket revenue if there’s already a large subsidy,” Aas says. “The subsidy part used to be 70 percent in Tallinn. Now it’s 96 percent.”

http://citiscope.org/story/2014/free-public-transit-tallinn-hit-riders-yields-unexpected-results

cdebru · 02-04-2015 3:32pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

1000 non-driving employees to operate a fleet of 900-odd fairly new buses seems like an awful lot.

Do we have to do this every time ?

1000, between 9 or 10 locations, some working shifts etc etc etc it is not that much when you break it down between all the grades and have staff like maintenance personnel who are working shifts over 24 hours 7 days a week.

dublindiehard · 02-04-2015 3:36pm

So there are only twice as many drivers as other staff?

cdebru · 02-04-2015 3:48pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Can you provide a link about drivers' pay?

We seem to have a lot of "it's 30/31k because I said so" but no links to DB/BE or union websites to back up historical (higher) rates?

http://www.dublinbus.ie/human-resources/

cdebru · 02-04-2015 3:49pm

dublindiehard wrote: »

So there are only twice as many drivers as other staff?

Roughly yes about 2200 drivers out of 3100 staff in total

end of the road · 02-04-2015 3:54pm

dublindiehard wrote: »

Increased wages = higher costs

higher costs = more revenue required to cover shortfall

Basic economics.

Subisdy has been cut, but then again the number of buses operated has also been cut.

so if wages come down so will fares? don't think so.

cdebru · 02-04-2015 3:54pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

So the new part time drivers are better paid?

how do you make that out of what I said ?

New drivers are on a 4 year scale after 4 years they will be paid the same as everyone else. They start on a 4 day week, then they move to a 5 day week as space provides, after 4 years they will earn on average including shift allowance and if they work Sundays 769 a week as per the ad on the DB website, if they don't work shifts their pay would be around 31k a year.

end of the road · 02-04-2015 3:57pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

1000 non-driving employees to operate a fleet of 900-odd fairly new buses seems like an awful lot.

well, they can't say "service canceled due to crew unavailability/staff shortage at the depot/garage"

monument · 02-04-2015 5:13pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

.......I won't be holding my breath waiting for thanks or an acknowledgment (from you or devnull or bk or n97mini or any of the other regulars who flood this forum with a pre-formed agenda bashing CIE employees) that the actual rates are in fact not consistent with the OTT Bullsht constantly spouted about CIE drivers being on huge inflated salaries.

I may as well delete that post entirely because as usual here accurate facts are neither wanted or respected, only biased nonsense, bullsht pub talk, snide swipes at "the other side" and combing through posts to try and find a small nugget that can be jumped on to score a point against the enemy.

Please read the charter before posting again, this section of your post goes against the rules of playing the man rather than the ball / focusing on the poster rather than the post, and posting constructively (getting into why your post is pointless because nobody will listen to you is not constructive at all and off-topic too).

-- moderator

Vic_08 · 02-04-2015 6:57pm

monument wrote: »

Please read the charter before posting again, this section of your post goes against the rules of playing the man rather than the ball / focusing on the poster rather than the post,

But continuing to post falsehoods and inferring that those of us who have said differently are liars is just fine? :rolleyes:

monument wrote: »

and posting constructively (getting into why your post is pointless because nobody will listen to you is not constructive at all and off-topic too).

No? Turned out to be 100% correct though, didn't it.

Anyway thank you for confirming my decision from last year to stop posting altogether on this board.

cdebru, you are wasting your time. You can explain it 100 different times in 100 different ways and it won't matter a jot. The evil unionised workers are enemy #1 and that is that, without us Ireland would be a rosy paradise with free public transport for all run by shiny happy private sector employees grateful to recieve a nod from Mr Commuter and a boiled sweet from the granny in lieu of an actual wage for the privilege of being allowed to drive them around the country.

n97 mini · 02-04-2015 6:58pm

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Was not hard to find, but some here want to push the €50k+ lie.
http://www.dublinbus.ie/human-resources/

Eh, I said historical. No-one is disputing the new rates are lower. You still haven't provided any evidence to back up your claims.

Icepick · 02-04-2015 8:08pm

cdebru wrote: »

Roughly yes about 2200 drivers out of 3100 staff in total

wtf are the 900 people doing?
Some management, admin, mechanics, etc .. but 900?

cdebru · 02-04-2015 8:56pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Eh, I said historical. No-one is disputing the new rates are lower. You still haven't provided any evidence to back up your claims.

There are no new rates there is a 4 year scale after 4 years everyone is on the same wage, there are only 2 historical pay costs one is pre 1973 given that is 42 years ago I doubt it affects many if any the second is a pre 87 payment which off the top of my head is 10 or €15a week , Alek would probably know but that is only paid to those employed before 1987 which is 28 years ago so I dont know how would be getting that but it is a small and dwindling number, ( also those payments are standalone, they do not affect overtime rates or any other payments and they are frozen at whatever rate was agreed at the time 1973 or 1987 converted to euro)

There is also a service payment which is 65 cents per week after 10 years and 1 euro 27 cents per week after 15 years service, that's it other than those there is no payment difference between someone who started in 1988 and someone who started last week once they reach the top of the scale after 4 years.

cdebru · 02-04-2015 9:03pm

Icepick wrote: »

wtf are the 900 people doing?
Some management, admin, mechanics, etc .. but 900?

170 inspectors, 20 chief inspectors, mechanics, other maintenance staff painters, body work, tyres, cleaners, bus stop maintenance, canteen staff, lost property, internal post, clerical staff, management, executives, etc when you add it up and divide it 9 garages, plus head office, then you have to take into account that some of those are working shifts its not that much tbh.

cdebru · 02-04-2015 9:09pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

But continuing to post falsehoods and inferring that those of us who have said differently are liars is just fine? :rolleyes:

No? Turned out to be 100% correct though, didn't it.

Anyway thank you for confirming my decision from last year to stop posting altogether on this board.

cdebru, you are wasting your time. You can explain it 100 different times in 100 different ways and it won't matter a jot. The evil unionised workers are enemy #1 and that is that, without us Ireland would be a rosy paradise with free public transport for all run by shiny happy private sector employees grateful to recieve a nod from Mr Commuter and a boiled sweet from the granny in lieu of an actual wage for the privilege of being allowed to drive them around the country.

I know but the alternative is just letting people post nonsense, and others just believing it because they read it somewhere, people turn up here with these bogus statistics, that just dont stand up to even minor scrutiny, like the nonsense about cost per kilometer being 50% less simple maths says impossible even if you paid minimum wage you couldn't do it, but unless someone points it out he would still be here posting that.

end of the road · 02-04-2015 9:44pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Eh, I said historical. No-one is disputing the new rates are lower. You still haven't provided any evidence to back up your claims.

he did. plenty of it

monument · 02-04-2015 11:37pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

But continuing to post falsehoods and inferring that those of us who have said differently are liars is just fine? :rolleyes:

No? Turned out to be 100% correct though, didn't it.

Anyway thank you for confirming my decision from last year to stop posting altogether on this board.

cdebru, you are wasting your time. You can explain it 100 different times in 100 different ways and it won't matter a jot. The evil unionised workers are enemy #1 and that is that, without us Ireland would be a rosy paradise with free public transport for all run by shiny happy private sector employees grateful to recieve a nod from Mr Commuter and a boiled sweet from the granny in lieu of an actual wage for the privilege of being allowed to drive them around the country.

Hope you enjoy the three day ban.

When I say read the charter before posting again, it's not a request.

-- moderator

Kermit.de.frog · 03-04-2015 12:04am

clunked wrote: »

Listening to RTE 1 radio this morning, a representative from the private operators more or less admitted that it would result in lower wages for drivers.

As usual the first thought is the driver and not the customer. That is what is wrong with state companies.

end of the road · 03-04-2015 12:11am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

As usual the first thought is the driver and not the customer. That is what is wrong with state companies.

one problem. what the poster stated was heard on radio one was apparently stated by a rep from the private operators. so what that has to do with state companies i don't know.

cdebru · 03-04-2015 12:58am

dublindiehard wrote: »

The reason people often quote the average, is because it is a verifiable figure in audited accounts therefore is known to be true, even if it is not perfect way to calculate.

It is not only not perfect it is misleading, and often used with the intention of misleading the reader, it is used to play up or down wages depending on who is using it and for what purpose, how many times have we seen average pay in the public sector used as an excuse to cut public sector pay when the average is over double what a lot of public sector employees earn.

n97 mini · 03-04-2015 9:12am

end of the road wrote: »

he did. plenty of it

Because you said so? He provided links about doctors pay, but nothing about drivers pay.

Icepick · 03-04-2015 10:45am

cdebru wrote: »

170 inspectors, 20 chief inspectors, mechanics, other maintenance staff painters, body work, tyres, cleaners, bus stop maintenance, canteen staff, lost property, internal post, clerical staff, management, executives, etc when you add it up and divide it 9 garages, plus head office, then you have to take into account that some of those are working shifts its not that much tbh.

Lots of that should be outsourced to private companies. It also sounds like a lot of duplication is going on across the garages. They can't even run their core business properly and they reckon they can do the other stuff?
Canteen and cleaners, really?

Spanish Eyes · 03-04-2015 10:59am

Has it been announced yet what routes are to be privatised?

Apparently 10% of all routes are to go that way.

devnull · 03-04-2015 11:26am

There are 10% of routes going out to tender.

Public and private companies can put bids in so up to 10% of routes could be in the hands of private operators, but they're not certainly going to be.

This is regulated tendering, rather than all out de-regulation.

cdebru · 03-04-2015 11:46am

Icepick wrote: »

Lots of that should be outsourced to private companies. It also sounds like a lot of duplication is going on across the garages. They can't even run their core business properly and they reckon they can do the other stuff?
Canteen and cleaners, really?

There is outsourcing in cleaners I think noonans have the contract, but their are some directly employed cleaners as well, particularly the night time bus cleaning operation that requires buses be driven and parked, fueled, and cash box emptied, etc, not something you can just hand out to any joe soap, the canteen food area is outsourced but within the canteen their would be non food areas that have a couple of employees, they would look after the lost property office as well as doubling as porters/security etc, as for duplication across depots you would have to be more specific as to what you are referring to ?

It seems to me that, a lot of people have no idea, what is required to run a large transport company, spread out over various locations, its not just as simple as a bus and a driver, there is a lot of work behind the scenes to keep everything running.

cdebru · 03-04-2015 11:48am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Has it been announced yet what routes are to be privatised?

Apparently 10% of all routes are to go that way.

It is the non city center routes, like the 220, 230, 104, 17a etc

LXFlyer · 03-04-2015 12:07pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Has it been announced yet what routes are to be privatised?

Apparently 10% of all routes are to go that way.

As above they are NOT being privatised. They are going out to tender. DB could still win the tender.

The route design, schedules, fares etc. will still be determined by the NTA and not whoever operates the route.

cdebru · 03-04-2015 12:57pm

lxflyer wrote: »

As above they are NOT being privatised. They are going out to tender. DB could still win the tender.

The route design, schedules, fares etc. will still be determined by the NTA and not whoever operates the route.

Semantics, they are currently operated by a semi state company they will be offered to tender in which a private company can bid to operate them it is privatisation, ie the sale or transfer of assets or services provided by the state to the private sector. DB will not win the tender, we are not going through all this for the NTA to leave the routes with DB.

Icepick · 03-04-2015 1:01pm

cdebru wrote: »

It seems to me that, a lot of people have no idea, what is required to run a large transport company, spread out over various locations, its not just as simple as a bus and a driver, there is a lot of work behind the scenes to keep everything running.

We need to compare the ratio with private companies and other public bus services in the EU then.

Icepick · 03-04-2015 1:02pm

cdebru wrote: »

Semantics, they are currently operated by a semi state company they will be offered to tender in which a private company can bid to operate them it is privatisation, ie the sale or transfer of assets or services provided by the state to the private sector. DB will not win the tender, we are not going through all this for the NTA to leave the routes with DB.

Are you suggesting it's going to be ilegally awarded?

The routes are already badly designed so I am skeptical about much changing.

cdebru · 03-04-2015 1:13pm

Icepick wrote: »

Are you suggesting it's going to be ilegally awarded?

The routes are already badly designed so I am skeptical about much changing.

I'm suggesting that this is Ireland and FG want privatisation, and they are not going to allow DB to retain these routes simple as.

The route design is irrelevant as is the amount.of people they carry, where they go etc etc the tender is to operate them on a fixed payment per kilometre so you get paid for operating if the bus is full or empty the same amount.

cdebru · 03-04-2015 1:14pm

Icepick wrote: »

We need to compare the ratio with private companies and other public bus services in the EU then.

The last government did that already and it said its staffing levels were in line with similar companies in other jurisdictions.

stehyl15 · 03-04-2015 1:37pm

If Dublin Bus do go on strike like in Italy why can't they at least have certain services guaranteed in case of strike and have these marked into timetables it is a disgrace that there will be no service whatsoever when it is an essential service that must be provided no matter what

cdebru · 03-04-2015 1:44pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Because you said so? He provided links about doctors pay, but nothing about drivers pay.

I gave you a link to the DB website human resources ad for new drivers in which the maximum pay scale is stated that is the same pay scale as current drivers, you don't want to accept that because it doesn't suit your argument.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 03-04-2015 2:17pm

cdebru wrote: »

I gave you a link to the DB website human resources ad for new drivers in which the maximum pay scale is stated that is the same pay scale as current drivers, you don't want to accept that because it doesn't suit your argument.

I just want to back you up on this. A new driver myself in the company. Only thing is the payscale is actually 6 years as opposed to the 4 it used to be.

Also if you look at arriva in london for driving a london bus, they get 31K a year sterling as opposed to the 565 a week here . Which would make it 29K euro a year.

woodrow wyatt · 03-04-2015 2:39pm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I just want to back you up on this.

Down with this sort of thing!
Do you not see this kind of crazy talk is not welcome here.

Bus Strike (read warning in post #1)

Comments