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Sam Harris on the Israel-Palestine Conflict

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Comments

  • #502
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    There is an interesting parallel to be drawn between the recent formation of the Islamic Caliphate/IS in the former countries of Iraq and Syria, and the formation of Israel;
    Both were;
    • Initially established as a territory on the basis of rapid military victories against an unprepared or weaker opposition.
    • Claimed a divine right to establish a religious state on the captured territory.
    • Removed/cleansed/killed/harassed the populations of non-compliant religion/ethnicity wherever they still held a significant local majority.
    • called for co-religionists to travel from abroad to help repopulate and defend the territory.
    • resented by their neighbouring countries.
    • would inevitably suffer attempts at retaliatory invasions and military attacks from other countries going into the future.


  • #503
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Yes but one is a democracy whereby Arab Israelis enjoy more human rights then in other Arab countries ironically and of course ignores the UN resolution passed in 1947 which granted Israel their state whereby the Arabs rejected the resolution and then subsequently attacked Israel.....

    These pseudo comparisons is just internet masturbation.


  • #504
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Yes but one is a democracy whereby Arab Israelis enjoy more human rights then in other Arab countries ironically and of course ignores the UN resolution passed in 1947 which granted Israel their state whereby the Arabs rejected the resolution and then subsequently attacked Israel.....

    .

    Who are "the Arabs" you're referring to?

    You realise that Palestinians in the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem and the Golan don't get a vote? Nor are they extended the basic protections of the Geneva convention. In fact, going by your standard, Apartheid South Africa would be a "democracy".


  • #505
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Arab Israelis, those who live in Israel who are Israeli citizens. They do exist you know, they get to have vote and run for office. They have better rights afforded to them than Arabs in places like Saudi, Qatar or Iran. No one denies this.

    Those who live in the West Bank and Gaza are not Israeli citizens, therefore are not the primary responsibility of the Israeli government. However, they should be afforded their own state as I already said I agree with the two state solution and when the Palestinians reject violence as a method then the sooner they will get their state.

    Black South Africans who were South African citizens did not have a vote. That is the key difference here. Arab Israelis do have a vote. *But but but...West Bank, Gaza., occupation, UN, Geneva...etc.etc..* Yes, I have heard it all before...


  • #506
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Arab Israelis, those who live in Israel who are Israeli citizens. They do exist you know, they get to have vote and run for office. They have better rights afforded to them than Arabs in places like Saudi, Qatar or Iran. No one denies this....

    Palestinians. They are, the majority of them, Palestinians.
    jank wrote: »
    Those who live in the West Bank and Gaza are not Israeli citizens, therefore are not the primary responsibility of the Israeli government. However, they should be afforded their own state as I already said I agree with the two state solution and when the Palestinians reject violence as a method then the sooner they will get their state.....

    O. And of course Israel building on their land and segmenting Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank and populating it with Israeli citizens clearly shows just how interested they are in a two state solution.

    I'm well aware they aren't Israeli citizens. That's the point. They are governed and at the mercy of Israel, yet do not receive the protection of Israeli law, or the Geneva conventions. They do not get a vote in Israeli elections. This is clearly not democratic. They have been in this position for nearly 50 years. Fatah have been on ceasefire for years, yet where is the Palestinian state? Where is the stop on settlement construction?


  • #507
    icecold1066
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 38 ✭icecold1066


    Nodin wrote: »
    The ANC never renounced violence.

    You do realise that there are more factions than Hamas, and that they have been on ceasefire many years, with nothing but more settlements to show for it?

    Firing their stupid rockets has had nothing to show for it except lots of dead civilians and whole swathes of Gaza reduced to piles of rubble.
    Hamas are a dead end. They are causing their own people to be slaughtered by providing an excuse to Israel.
    Einstein said the definition of insanity was to try the same thing and expect a different result.
    Hamas have been firing rockets Israel for years and every few years Israel pounds Gaza to bits.
    This latest round of war is a rerun of the last disaster.


  • #508
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    Palestinians. They are, the majority of them, Palestinians.

    Yes, they could could be called Palestinians if they identify themselves with that ethnic group. However, the key difference is of course is that they are Israeli citizens and therefore enjoy more rights than Palestinians under Hamas in Gaza. Ironic eh?

    Nodin wrote: »
    O. And of course Israel building on their land and segmenting Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank and populating it with Israeli citizens clearly shows just how interested they are in a two state solution.

    Yawn. Yes, everyone knows the solution to this is to build tunnels and fire rockets...
    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm well aware they aren't Israeli citizens. That's the point. They are governed and at the mercy of Israel, yet do not receive the protection of Israeli law, or the Geneva conventions. They do not get a vote in Israeli elections. This is clearly not democratic. They have been in this position for nearly 50 years. Fatah have been on ceasefire for years, yet where is the Palestinian state? Where is the stop on settlement construction?

    What the hell are you on about? How is it not democratic that they do not get a vote in Israeli elections when they are not citizens. They get to vote in elections run by the Palestinian Authority. We hear continuously that Hamas was 'democratically' elected yet now you complain that they don't get a vote in Israel either. Thats moronic stuff. They are not Jordanian citizens either and their Arab neighbours haven't help them much. They prefer to use them as propaganda.

    For all the bluster, the only solution is a two state solution. Israel are never going to hand over passports to 4 million Palestinians as much as that would be a wet dream for 'free gaza' crowd.


  • #509
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Yes, they could could be called Palestinians if they identify themselves with that ethnic group. However, the key difference is of course is that they are Israeli citizens and therefore enjoy more rights than Palestinians under Hamas in Gaza. Ironic eh?.

    And this somehow means you can ignore discrimination within Israel, and the apartheid system within the west bank etc. How convenient.
    jank wrote: »
    Yawn. Yes, everyone knows the solution to this is to build tunnels and fire rockets....

    Ahh, evasion.

    jank wrote: »
    What the hell are you on about? How is it not democratic that they do not get a vote in Israeli elections when they are not citizens.....

    Israel is the effective authority in the occupied territories. Palestinians do not get to vote in Israeli elections. Israelis who live in the occupied territories are afforded the protections of Israeli law and preferential access to resources, aid etc. It is a two tier apartheid system.


  • #510
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    icecold1066 wrote: »
    Firing their stupid rockets has had nothing to show for it except lots of dead civilians and whole swathes of Gaza reduced to piles of rubble.
    Hamas are a dead end. They are causing their own people to be slaughtered by providing an excuse to Israel.
    Einstein said the definition of insanity was to try the same thing and expect a different result.
    Hamas have been firing rockets Israel for years and every few years Israel pounds Gaza to bits.
    This latest round of war is a rerun of the last disaster.


    Did you copy and paste that from somewhere else? Because it doesn't seem to relate to the remarks of mine you quoted.


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  • #511
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    jank wrote: »
    Black South Africans who were South African citizens did not have a vote. That is the key difference here. Arab Israelis do have a vote....
    In the final stages of apartheid there was a plan to establish "independent homelands" into which the blacks and other non-compliant people would be herded. Soweto (South West Township) would have been similar to Gaza; no voting rights in South Africa proper, even after a possible scenario had developed in which blacks officially living in SA would be allowed to vote in SA.


  • #512
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    And this somehow means you can ignore discrimination within Israel, and the apartheid system within the west bank etc. How convenient.

    Its a fact. The Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank are not Israelis. Palestinians living in Israel who hold a Israeli passport are Israeli and have the right to vote in democratic elections and enjoy more human rights than Arabs in the rest of the Arab world.

    Nodin wrote: »
    Ahh, evasion.

    Its a fact. I disagree with the occultation and with the building of settlements but I don't think the solution to this is violence. You are the person vaguely justifying the killing of Israeli civilians because of the status qua. At least come out and admit it.


    Nodin wrote: »
    Israel is the effective authority in the occupied territories. Palestinians do not get to vote in Israeli elections. Israelis who live in the occupied territories are afforded the protections of Israeli law and preferential access to resources, aid etc. It is a two tier apartheid system.

    Emotive language aside, it is hence why I favour a two state solution.


  • #513
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Its a fact. The Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank are not Israelis. Palestinians living in Israel who hold a Israeli passport are Israeli and have the right to vote in democratic elections and enjoy more human rights than Arabs in the rest of the Arab world.
    .

    But they are governed by Israel. Therefore they are subject to a Government they have no say in. Secondly others in that territory are allowed a say in it, rendering the situation akin to apartheid South Africa.

    As regards how Palestinians in Israel are treated, its a cold house for them
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...state-1.225919

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4198754.stm

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2007121902748

    jank wrote: »
    Emotive language aside, it is hence why I favour a two state solution.


    Theres nothing emotive about it. It's a two tier system based on ethnicity/religion. It is apartheid.


  • #514
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    But they are governed by Israel. Therefore they are subject to a Government they have no say in.

    Oh, its governed now not occupied. I missed that memo. Are you saying that the Palestinian Authority are subjects of Israel and are governed by Israel?


  • #515
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Oh, its governed now not occupied. I missed that memo. Are you saying that the Palestinian Authority are subjects of Israel and are governed by Israel?


    Effectively yes. They don't even collect a lot of their own taxes, but have to beg them back off Israel. They can't block settlement expansion, land seizure, road construction. They're powerless save what power Israel permits them, which can change on a whim.


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