Gotham (Fox) [ Spoilers ]

pixelburp · 08-10-2014 11:14pm

God, the air of 'honest, decent cop' Gordon's supposed to emit is somewhat undercut by his ludicrously plush apartment. Sure, it's not technically his, but I think it does the character a disadvantage a little to have him lamenting the corruption of Gotham in such palatial surroundings. Visually, it jars.

As to the episode itself, well it's hard to say - it's getting better but by degrees rather than any serious upswing; the dialogue remains so expository and clunky it's eye-watering at times, with Barbara and Lt. Montoya being a particularly bad scene. Equally the introduction of Maroni, who practically announces to the world "I am Don Maroni, famous mob boss!". Or the moment Bruce is watching the TV when the news reporter decides to editorialise and directly ask the viewer - Bruce - who will stand up to the badguys in the city?

That said, to be fair the episode was a little more fun than the previous two, which was probably down to the patently goofy concept of The Baloonman, and the comment above about the show echoing Sam Raimi's Darkman feel kinda apt. Gotham has a similar trashy, heightened reality about it that does lessen some of the pain of its details. This isn't Christopher Nolan's Batman, full of angst and darkness; the darkness here is a grimier squalor, and more overtly comic.

They could do with fixing Detective Bullock though, because the script's making him look like a buffoon and Donal Logue's playing him like one too.

_Kaiser_ · 08-10-2014 11:23pm

pixelburp wrote: »

God, the air of 'honest, decent cop' Gordon's supposed to emit is somewhat undercut by his ludicrously plush apartment. Sure, it's not technically his, but I think it does the character a disadvantage a little to have him lamenting the corruption of Gotham in such palatial surroundings. Visually, it jars.

More than that, I think the whole "lone decent cop in a city gone bad" angle is starting to wear thin.

As to the episode itself, well it's hard to say - it's getting better but by degrees rather than any serious upswing; the dialogue remains so expository and clunky it's eye-watering at times, with Barbara and Lt. Montoya being a particularly bad scene. Equally the introduction of Maroni, who practically announces to the world "I am Don Maroni, famous mob boss!". Or the moment Bruce is watching the TV when the news reporter decides to editorialise and directly ask the viewer - Bruce - who will stand up to the badguys in the city?

As someone else said, young Bruce is basically Batman already in a child's body. For a show supposed to be about the rest of Gotham, he's also in it far too much. Used more sparingly I think would be much more effective.

That said, to be fair the episode was a little more fun than the previous two, which was probably down to the patently goofy concept of The Baloonman, and the comment above about the show echoing Sam Raimi's Darkman feel kinda apt. Gotham has a similar trashy, heightened reality about it that does lessen some of the pain of its details. This isn't Christopher Nolan's Batman, full of angst and darkness; the darkness here is a grimier squalor, and more overtly comic.

Agreed - it was an improvement on the first 2 but not dramatically so. It's still not "grabbing" me.

By the look of the numbers though it'll probably be renewed anyway so hopefully all the above gets addressed

CastorTroy · 08-10-2014 11:40pm

I'm thinking some complaints will be addressed as it goes on and as they write and shoot episodes after hearing any criticism. As it stands, there would be what, 6 or 7 episodes, at least, finished/shooting/in post production when the first episode aired? So if that was the case episode 8 could be where the show starts to address complaints.

TwoShedsJackson · 09-10-2014 9:54am

Getting a bit better, still some woeful dialogue. Plus the scene near the end

where they're looking for the last balloon and then just look out of the car and see it down the alley, pretty terrible stuff

.

Mainly watching for Oswald at the moment.

09-10-2014 12:51pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I just heard from Digital Spy that Gotham will now also be shown free to air on Channel 5 in the UK.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s243/gotham/news/a588544/gotham-coming-to-channel-5-in-the-uk-batman-origins-story-gets-home.html#~oMczLQ5vkpZzHi

It will air sometime after it's release date on FOX.

Starting next Monday at 9pm on Channel 5!

Gingervitis · 10-10-2014 12:28am

I love Bullock's "tell us how balloons work or I'll beat it out of you" line sounds!
Also, wind doesn't exist in Gotham apparently.

Stole this from the AV Club comments:

"A masked vigilante is taking on the criminals of Gotham!"
"Batman!?"
"No, this guy uses balloons."
"Batman uses balloons."
"It's not Batman!"

CastorTroy · 10-10-2014 12:33am

Wonder where the first and third guys came down since we just saw the dirty cop

JP Liz V1 · 13-10-2014 10:23pm

Fox has handed a full season order pick up to Gotham so 22 episodes

martingriff · 13-10-2014 10:44pm

I guess she does not need to ask if he killed cobblepot

pixelburp · 14-10-2014 10:27pm

Jesus the Cobblepot storyline is infuriating; while he's the most interesting character so far, his plot barely makes any sense, it's an incoherent mess that 30 seconds of proof reading would have shot down. Ok, even if we run with the idiocy of returning to Gotham so soon, on what planet would slinking under the wing of your former boss' rival seem like a good idea? 'Nobody looks for a dead man' he remarked in this episode; I respectfully disagree when your memorable physical appearance would be spotted by a Falcone snitch in seconds. Or, you know, that random guy you had to kill 5 minutes after arriving back.

And speaking of 30 seconds of proof reading, I don't think the writers understand what a 'paradox' is. Usually linguistics doesn't bring the pedant out in me, but Edward Nigma talking about a paradox that is quite clearly nothing of the sort just wound me up. Of all the people to get it wrong.

The mafia stereotypes are hilarious though; David Zayas' Maroni has to be seen to be believed. It's like something out of The Simpsons

I talked in this very thread about giving Gotham a chance, but these scripts are so fundamentally terrible it's hard to see where the improvement can come from.

FortuneChip · 15-10-2014 2:45am

pixelburp wrote: »

Jesus the Cobblepot storyline is infuriating; while he's the most interesting character so far, his plot barely makes any sense, it's an incoherent mess that 30 seconds of proof reading would have shot down. Ok, even if we run with the idiocy of returning to Gotham so soon, on what planet would slinking under the wing of your former boss' rival seem like a good idea? 'Nobody looks for a dead man' he remarked in this episode; I respectfully disagree when your memorable physical appearance would be spotted by a Falcone snitch in seconds. Or, you know, that random guy you had to kill 5 minutes after arriving back.

And speaking of 30 seconds of proof reading, I don't think the writers understand what a 'paradox' is. Usually linguistics doesn't bring the pedant out in me, but Edward Nigma talking about a paradox that is quite clearly nothing of the sort just wound me up. Of all the people to get it wrong.

The mafia stereotypes are hilarious though; David Zayas' Maroni has to be seen to be believed. It's like something out of The Simpsons

I talked in this very thread about giving Gotham a chance, but these scripts are so fundamentally terrible it's hard to see where the improvement can come from.

Grab the hammer champ; because the nails are all in place!

There's no doubt that somewhere on the creative team there is an earnest heart that really wants this to be special, but it's just so poorly scripted.
There's so much potential but between ham-fisted dialogue, tonnes of wink/wink references, it's just becoming more and more silly.

I can't even blame the cast; there's potential in them too, but how enthused can someone like Donal Logue be when his opening line to the E. Nigma is "Enough of your riddles".

Everyone knows the source material, there's no harm in a little subtly every now and again.

ramble ramble

TwoShedsJackson · 15-10-2014 7:55am

The guy playing Cobblepot is doing a really good job, but yes he should have been killed within ten minutes of getting back to Gotham - he's not exactly anonymous in looks, style, or the way he acts. Willing to overlook that for the sake of entertainment, I mean soon enough he will no doubt be able to be back out in the open with his own bodyguards etc. but this show is on thin ice.

Nody · 15-10-2014 9:04am

FortuneChip wrote: »

Everyone knows the source material, there's no harm in a little subtly every now and again.

It's like Game of Thrones boobie show; it's done because they are afraid their audience might not catch it and hence lose interest (god forbid you actually had a interesting plot or something to keep them entertained after all)...

CastorTroy · 15-10-2014 10:09am

Dunno why, but I was thinking last night that this show could take a dark turn at some point, though there aren't really any expendable main characters whose death would have that effect.

RobbingBandit · 15-10-2014 9:35pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Jesus the Cobblepot storyline is infuriating; while he's the most interesting character so far, his plot barely makes any sense, it's an incoherent mess that 30 seconds of proof reading would have shot down. Ok, even if we run with the idiocy of returning to Gotham so soon, on what planet would slinking under the wing of your former boss' rival seem like a good idea? 'Nobody looks for a dead man' he remarked in this episode; I respectfully disagree when your memorable physical appearance would be spotted by a Falcone snitch in seconds. Or, you know, that random guy you had to kill 5 minutes after arriving back.

And speaking of 30 seconds of proof reading, I don't think the writers understand what a 'paradox' is. Usually linguistics doesn't bring the pedant out in me, but Edward Nigma talking about a paradox that is quite clearly nothing of the sort just wound me up. Of all the people to get it wrong.

The mafia stereotypes are hilarious though; David Zayas' Maroni has to be seen to be believed. It's like something out of The Simpsons

I talked in this very thread about giving Gotham a chance, but these scripts are so fundamentally terrible it's hard to see where the improvement can come from.

One of the oldest tricks in the book, it's called hiding in plain sight.

Alfred Borden · 15-10-2014 9:52pm

Show took a step back this week in my opinion. Would like to see it staying consistent pretty soon.

dublinman1990 · 15-10-2014 10:51pm

I watched the first pilot of this show on Channel 5 last Monday night and I thought the episode had a lot of activity on it's first outing.

The pace was too much for me to keep up for a whole hour. It was going like lightening. The amount of villains introduced in the show was just a lot to to take through to the next episode. To have three bad guys introduced for the pilot of a batman show is very rare.

The pace needs to be much slower for this show to be more successful. As I haven't seen the other episodes yet, it will be nice to have a slower tempo going into future episodes.

The Indo have given a lot of praise for the pilot and given it a 4 star rating in it's TV review. They also reported yesterday that the pilot of Gotham will not be shown to viewers of RTE2 until the new year.

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-reviews/gotham-this-dark-knight-prequel-is-a-blast-30662422.html

That means the only options for viewers until then will be the FOX channel on Sky, Channel 5 and Netflix until the Irish rights are on show in January 2015.

aine1980 · 15-10-2014 10:52pm

Watched the first 20 mins of this episode & gave up.. I think I'm finished with Gotham

dublinman1990 · 15-10-2014 11:12pm

I forgot to mention that the pilot of Gotham debuted with a viewership of 1.78 million viewers on Channel 5 and 318,000 on Channel 5+1 in which it is regarded as the biggest drama of the year so far for the channel.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s243/gotham/news/a603316/gotham-debuts-with-17m-made-in-chelsea-returns-with-549k.html#~oSNFz5ZxPerBEk

lertsnim · 16-10-2014 11:11am

Great show. It's perfect viewing for when I want to switch my brain off.

_Kaiser_ · 16-10-2014 6:01pm

This show is all over the place and the fact that we all know what happens to the main characters ruins any kind of suspense. Young Bruce still acts like mini-Batman which just disrupts everything as well.

The last straw though was the catfight and Jim's bisexual girlfriend - both presumably for the benefit of the teenage boys in the audience.

I'm done.

Potential-Monke · 22-10-2014 5:08am

I think people were expecting too much from this show. There is only certain places it can go, and when the majority of the cast is not expendable i'm sure it's a nightmare to write for. However, i think it's good at what it does. I was never into the comics (no DC or Marvel in the middle of nowhere in the 80's!), so i've no idea if they're sticking strictly to a Batman origin story or not, so for me it's very interesting to see where the characters come from and how they develop.

Take Penguin for example, most of the films and tv shows portray him as this ruthless business man with a love for violence. It's interesting to see him as a younger 'uin working his way through the families and making his own mark. Same with the Riddler (one of my favourite characters), even with the short air time he gets, you can see why he's going to turn out the way he will, and i think they're doing a brilliant job portraying that (again, with the limited air time he gets) through his love for his job and the rejection he shows when others don't listen to him or ignore him; the actor playing him has got that disappointed and dangerous look each time it happens.

As for this episode (5 - Viper), they made it very obvious that

Viper was the precursor to Venom

the first time you see it. With a bit of research, i found that they've changed the origin story of that to suit the show, but still interesting none the less.

Also, for those complaining that young Bruce is acting too much like Batman; well, he is the worlds greatest detective, so surely that was in him from the get go, and only surfaced after the killing of his parents. I mean, he didn't just suddenly become the worlds greatest detective when he decided to don a bat suit. So it's also interesting to see him do the mini bats but within the limitations of a, what, 13 year old? I'm pretty sure it'll head in the direction of him only being able to go so far, and this will lead to his disappearing and training to become the Batman. Or, they're creating their own origin story for Batman, completely ignoring the Nolan trilogy and maybe taking hints from the comics, or creating a brand new one?!

Anyway, with only 2 episodes left, i can't wait to see where it goes. Especially can't wait to see Mrs. Smith bite the bullet, because she annoys me. Don't think it will happen in this series though, not with the side story of Liza just starting anyway.

Awesomeness · 22-10-2014 6:07am

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I think people were expecting too much from this show. There is only certain places it can go, and when the majority of the cast is not expendable i'm sure it's a nightmare to write for. However, i think it's good at what it does. I was never into the comics (no DC or Marvel in the middle of nowhere in the 80's!), so i've no idea if they're sticking strictly to a Batman origin story or not, so for me it's very interesting to see where the characters come from and how they develop.

Take Penguin for example, most of the films and tv shows portray him as this ruthless business man with a love for violence. It's interesting to see him as a younger 'uin working his way through the families and making his own mark. Same with the Riddler (one of my favourite characters), even with the short air time he gets, you can see why he's going to turn out the way he will, and i think they're doing a brilliant job portraying that (again, with the limited air time he gets) through his love for his job and the rejection he shows when others don't listen to him or ignore him; the actor playing him has got that disappointed and dangerous look each time it happens.

As for this episode (5 - Viper), they made it very obvious that
Viper was the precursor to Venom
the first time you see it. With a bit of research, i found that they've changed the origin story of that to suit the show, but still interesting none the less.

Also, for those complaining that young Bruce is acting too much like Batman; well, he is the worlds greatest detective, so surely that was in him from the get go, and only surfaced after the killing of his parents. I mean, he didn't just suddenly become the worlds greatest detective when he decided to don a bat suit. So it's also interesting to see him do the mini bats but within the limitations of a, what, 13 year old? I'm pretty sure it'll head in the direction of him only being able to go so far, and this will lead to his disappearing and training to become the Batman. Or, they're creating their own origin story for Batman, completely ignoring the Nolan trilogy and maybe taking hints from the comics, or creating a brand new one?!

Anyway, with only 2 episodes left, i can't wait to see where it goes. Especially can't wait to see Mrs. Smith bite the bullet, because she annoys me. Don't think it will happen in this series though, not with the side story of Liza just starting anyway.

There are 22 episodes in the season.

Anyway I though last night was better with the somewhat subtle reference to Venom and not having it rammed down your throat and also not even any flashing Riddler signs when he popped up

Potential-Monke · 22-10-2014 4:08pm

Awesomeness wrote: »

There are 22 episodes in the season.

There is??? Nice!

TwoShedsJackson · 22-10-2014 5:38pm

Potential-Monke wrote: »

There is??? Nice!

I'd prefer a shorter season, like the 16 they mentioned at first, cuts out on filler episodes which there are bound to be at least 4 or 5 of, and keeps things moving at a better clip. BUt ad revenue is king, of course.

iano.p · 22-10-2014 5:56pm

Started looking at this on channel 5. I must say I like it it could work out to be a good show.

pixelburp · 22-10-2014 8:23pm

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I think people were expecting too much from this show.

Depends on how you define 'too much'; because I wasn't expecting such poor dialogue and scripting that's almost beyond cliché. Even when Agents of SHIELD started off equally ropey, it had a zip to its dialogue and some charm - here the writing's just swill. This weeks episode actually had the gall to give a character important information via a convenient 'Breaking News' segment on TV. It really is like something The Simpsons would do and it's just so shockingly lazy.

Gotham has tonnes of potential; the world before Batman is a story unto itself and has bags of possibilities, but the TV show instead stays so wedded to the mythology of Bruce Wayne everything else sinks into a frustrating mess of exposition and the ticking off of Batman tropes. It's like the writers decided "ah sure, everyone knows Batman, we'll just throw in the characters people know and call it a day". Wayne shouldn't be in these episodes at all imo.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Take Penguin for example, most of the films and tv shows portray him as this ruthless business man with a love for violence. It's interesting to see him as a younger 'uin working his way through the families and making his own mark.

See, this is interesting because the above, and the most recent episode, get to the heart of one big problem this show has: everyone has already taken their pre-ordained positions, there's almost no character development in sight. Who is Oswald? What does he want? Why is he doing these things? Nobody just wants power for its own sake, but because we know he's The Penguin, he starts off evil and has nowhere to go; he just conveniently murders his way closer to the ear of Maroni. Big whoop. Gordon's the same only on the other end of the spectrum; he starts off the lone crusader in the corrupt precinct and his character doesn't appear to have any room for growth. His being mixed up with Cobblepot is just a problem to overcome, instead of a fundamental conflict.

All that said mind you, the Venom / Viper stuff this week was kinda fun, even if it yet again betrayed that wavering tone the show can't quite settle on.

JP Liz V1 · 22-10-2014 9:43pm

Morena Baccarin is joining as

Dr. Leslie Thompkins

duridian · 23-10-2014 1:08am

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Morena Baccarin is joining as
Dr. Leslie Thompkins

Good news! I love Morena.

titan18 · 23-10-2014 4:12pm

pixelburp wrote: »

It really is like something The Simpsons would do and it's just so shockingly lazy.

In regards to The Simpsons, Maroni reminds me of Fat Tony. Such a stereotypical Italian mob guy.

The Gibzilla · 25-10-2014 12:23pm

I loved this episode. There were a couple of hammy moments in it, but I think I've gotten used to that side of the show. All of young Bruce's scenes were good, they really showed the development of his detective skills. I liked that he had "Zorro" on in the background when Alfred woke him up. It was a nice touch. The development of the Penguin's character is shaping up, though I still can't warm to Fish as a character and find her scenes the most cringe-worthy. I'm also expecting some inevitable pun if Fish is killed off by Penguin in a later episode.

Overall, it was a very enjoyable episode and I think the series is starting to gain a nice bit of moment. I would echo the sentiment that extending the series to 22 episodes is a mistake, it just means there will be too much filler and that could halt the progression of a show in it's first series. 16 would've be just right for this, but I guess only time will tell. I was on the fence about sticking with the show or not, but after last nights episode I think I'm going to keep with it, at least for one season.

MJ23 · 28-10-2014 12:45am

Fish is pure cringe.

don ramo · 28-10-2014 1:57am

MJ23 wrote: »

Fish is pure cringe.

hopefully she will be penguins first big victory, i really hope shes only gonna be in it for a season, hopefully even less,

as someone said earlier each character is kinda already assembled as weve always known them, none of them seem to be very happy people with great lives that are gonna be torn apart over the next 3-4 seasons leading them to become megalomaniacs,

its only ok so far, its not the first show i watch on a tuesday, and it needs to improve a lot before it is, i had very high hopes for this, i was disgusted FOX got it, would have loved if someone like HBO or Showtime got it, but networks do pull it off at time, like SHIELD and Arrow

Alfred Borden · 28-10-2014 10:09am

This episode was very good. Liked the increased presence of Nigma too.

Potential-Monke · 28-10-2014 10:45am

Yeah, say what you want about it, but this show has me hooked. Some might consider it a filler episode, but it progressed enough to be needed. Again, love the Nigma story, you can see him slowly going down the crazy train from an over-excited crime scene investigator with a love for riddles into a full blown sociopath.

RobbingBandit · 28-10-2014 1:06pm

Good to see Bullock's beginning and the Riddler coffee mug Nygma was drinking from was great.

Macker1 · 28-10-2014 5:37pm

Finding it hard to keep watching. Some good characters but a few too many that are simply annoying.

TwoShedsJackson · 28-10-2014 6:49pm

Best episode so far also has a complete absence of Fish Mooney. Coincidence!? I THINK NOT!!

ShaneU · 28-10-2014 7:28pm

Macker1 wrote: »

Finding it hard to keep watching. Some good characters but a few too many that are simply annoying.

Barbara Gordon is insufferable

RobbingBandit · 28-10-2014 8:03pm

Wonder what CatGirl stole from Bruce, looked like a cigarette case to me.

pixelburp · 28-10-2014 11:51pm

Well that was the show's strongest episode by far, despite any continuing problems well-mentioned by a broken record like myself

That it was the best episode probably had a lot to do with the simple addition of a little characterisation into proceedings: Detective Bullock's background with the case and the reveal that he was once the 'white knight' added some desperately needed depth, even if it was a fairly clichéd variant. It was also the first time we got to see him do some actual detective work, instead of acting like a thuggish buffoon.

The usual criticisms applied here of course: laughable exposition, terrible dialogue, the needless inserts with Bruce Wayne, poor side characters; but if this episode is the start of an upward curve, that's a good thing.

ricero · 29-10-2014 2:27pm

Very good episode this week. Its getting better each week

squonk · 29-10-2014 2:55pm

Good episode and the last few minutes actually ramped things up nicely for next week and hopefully the rest of the season too I thought. While it was overall a good episode by Gotham standards so far, it was a fairly poor to average episode by the standards of other TV shows in the genre. Speaking of that, did anyone else notice the building in one of the city scape scenes with a giant green Q on the side of it? I thought that was a nice touch!

I think they've really bungled the rogues gallery aspect of the show and are continuing to bungle it. Edward Nigma drinking from the cup with the giant ? on it was just brash. It might have been ok as a 5 second glimpse shot but the camera lingered on it and, if that wasn't obvious enough, went back to linger again. I could practically hear the director/writers screaming "HEY! SEE THIS GUY? YEAH, HE'S GOING TO BECOME RIDDLER! YEAH! SERIOUSLY HE IS! LOOK! WE'LL SHOW YOU AGAIN! DO YOU STILL SEE IT? YEAH, HE'S GOING TO BECOME RIDDLER! BY THE WAY DID WE MENTION THAT EDWARD NIGMA BECOMES THE RIDDLER. EDWARD NIGNMA... HE'S THE RIDDLER MAN!"

Just stop already!

Shane St. · 29-10-2014 8:13pm

Need a new show after Boardwalk Empire finished up? This worth getting in to?

evilivor · 29-10-2014 9:55pm

This weeks episode had another dig at therapy and therapists and that, combined with Thomas Wayne's bizarre "no grief therapy for Master Wayne" clause, outlined in the Selina Kyle episode, makes me wonder, is there some Scientology vibe going on in the show? Scientology being vehemently against psychiatry and psychology.

Wasn't there some sort of ongoing subtext about Scientology in "The Mentalist" as well? I wonder is Bruno Heller into it or just ripping into it?

Riddle101 · 30-10-2014 8:15pm

I wonder how far they can go with this series. I mean they're doing well developing Penguin's origin, and also have Selena Kyle and Edward Nigma, but are we going to see other origins as well. Like a younger Joker or Harvey Dent. Although I reckon if they do, they will probably be in a future series like 2 or 3 depending on how far the show goes.

drugstore cowboy · 30-10-2014 8:18pm

Riddle101 wrote: »

I wonder how far they can go with this series. I mean they're doing well developing Penguin's origin, and also have Selena Kyle and Edward Nigma, but are we going to see other origins as well. Like a younger Joker or Harvey Dent. Although I reckon if they do, they will probably be in a future series like 2 or 3 depending on how far the show goes.

An actor has been cast for Dent and I think they said the Joker will appear at some stage.

ASOT · 30-10-2014 11:08pm

Watched the first 6 episodes last night and i really enjoyed it, loving Penguins character, should have held off and watched the full season in a block because i hate waiting for new episodes of things!

Sudden Valley · 04-11-2014 10:38pm

Jeez the mob war was disappointing in this episode. The show is just too full of wacky characters (e.g. the Russian assassin in this episode), the conflict between the two groups just came off as hilarious.

pixelburp · 05-11-2014 12:10am

The somewhat pointless henchwomen of Victor Zsasz were utterly ludicrous looking, straight out of the Joel Schumacher Batman films, but otherwise it was a steady enough episode; feels like the show is becoming 'adequate', which by the standards so far is a marked improvement. Cobblepot's definitely the strongest performer in all of this, finding a fairly deft balance between the straight-faced and the comic; it's a shame the rest of the cast still wheel randomly between those two poles.

Gotham (Fox) [** Spoilers **]

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Gotham (Fox) [ Spoilers ]