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Undertaking on the motorway

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13567…45

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    #62
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Connavar wrote: »
    Yes there is no term overtaking lane. They are called lane 2 and lane 3, which you are not supposed to drive in except when overtaking. Unless in special circumstances...
    Thanks for confirming my point by pointing that out again, but why you chose to direct your lessons at me is a bit of a mystery; I'm not a learner's permit holder, nor am I one of the posters proposing illegal, dangerous driving tactics on motorways.

    Thanks anyway.


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    #63
    Connavar
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Connavar


    mathepac wrote: »
    As there is no such thing as an "overtaking lane" it can't be illegal to drive on it.
    Sorry I forgot to include this part of your quote.

    What I was trying to say is that it is illegal to drive in lane 2(often called the overtaking lane) when not overtaking, except in special circumstances such as accommodating merging traffic


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    #64
    S28382
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭S28382


    Ignorant f***ers that drive slow as fu*k in the overtaking lane, it drives me mad, i drive the M9 everyday and the amount of assholes that do it is unreal:mad:


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    #65
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    mathepac wrote: »
    The last time I heard from you was in another thread where you appeared to be a learner driver trying to get guidance on "protocol" on motorways, the "who has right of way?" question.

    If you are a learner, refer to page 45 in the Rules of the Road about the current topic which is "Undertaking on the motorway"

    Just to point out to you as part of your learning, there is no such thing as an "overtaking lane" on a motorway nor is there an "undertaking lane" on a motorway or any other public carriageway.

    As there is no such thing as an "overtaking lane" it can't be illegal to drive on it. See pages 79 / 80 in the Rules of the Road and other about lane control in tunnels etc.

    Always glad to facilitate learning

    All correct, but I don't quite get the section I have outlined in bold.
    You seem to make the argument that you can drive on any lane you want on the motorway.
    According to the AA:
    Correct lane use

    There’s no such thing as a ‘fast lane’ on a motorway. Traffic should always cruise in the left hand lane. The right hand lane is for overtaking other vehicles; it’s also used when approaching a slip road in order to let traffic join the motorway from the left. On a three-lane or multi-lane motorway the same rules apply. Keep to the left as much as possible. Traffic should never be in the right-hand lane on motorways if the left hand lane is clear.

    You're right, there's no "overtaking" lane, but traffic should keep left.
    The RSA seems to support this:
    • Lane 1 – You should always use this lane for normal driving. Stay in this
    lane unless you are overtaking.

    There seems to be no penalty points offence for driving in another lane, IMO there should be, but it could be viewed as driving without reasonable consideration, 2 points.
    Though I would doubt if anyone has ever been done for that or ever will be.
    Driving in the right hand lane at 80 km/h when there's no reason to, is simply being a dick.
    If someone does that, I will not wait behind him, I will wait for a while, then indicate right. Then a quick flash. If he/she hasn't moved after a while, I go for it. Life's too short.


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    #66
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Today, like many other days, I was in the driving lane doing an indicated 100, so probably actually 95 and was going faster than the 80% off the traffic which was in the other 2 lanes. Are some people really saying I should then slow to 80-90 and block that lane too or maybe move out and join those idiots?
    mathepac wrote: »
    Undertaking is both dangerous and illegal, if you don't agree get the road traffic laws changed, until then we simply obey them.

    So we (as in the people driving at or under the speed limit in the driving lane) have to obey the laws, but the people driving at or under the limit int he overtaking lane, overtaking no one, dont?


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    #67
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    All correct, ...
    I Know it's all correct.
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    ... but I don't quite get the section I have outlined in bold...
    What's not to understand? Lane control in tunnels and on motorways is subject to the overhead signs, amongst other controls.
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    ...
    You seem to make the argument that you can drive on any lane you want on the motorway..
    Where do I do that?
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    ... You're right, there's no "overtaking" lane, but traffic should keep left.
    The RSA seems to support this: ...
    I know all this. Where have I argued the opposite? And I'm glad the RSA agrees with me, it means they're capable of learning.
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    ... If someone does that, I will not wait behind him, I will wait for a while, then indicate right. Then a quick flash. If he/she hasn't moved after a while, I go for it. Life's too short.
    And hopefully the cops see you and you get done for "intimidating driving tactics", technically careless driving because it's illegal.


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    #68
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Connavar wrote: »
    Sorry I forgot to include this part of your quote.

    What I was trying to say is that it is illegal to drive in lane 2(often called the overtaking lane) when not overtaking, except in special circumstances such as accommodating merging traffic
    I'm sure some of the people posting their dangerous illegal nonsense here call themselves drivers, that doesn't make them drivers. I'm still not sure what you are trying to educate me on - where have I posted anything that contradicts you post?


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    #69
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    mathepac wrote: »
    And hopefully the cops see you and you get done

    I hear they are buzzing around on squadrons of flying pigs these days.


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    #70
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Today, like many other days, I was in the driving lane ...
    Practising your golf, eh? Good idea, you don't seem to understand the names of lanes on motorways though.
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    ... in the driving lane) have to obey the laws, but the people driving at or under the limit int he overtaking lane, overtaking no one, dont?
    Hey you seem to be great at the ould golf but I suggest you need to brush up on your knowledge of motorways.

    Anyway be it golf or motoring you have to obey the laws man, otherwise where would we be? Chaos man, anarchy on the golf courses and the roads.


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    #71
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    Reg'stoy wrote: »
    Increasing the speed limit won't change a thing, besides as someone who crosses the M50 twice (at least) a day I've grown accustomed to it.

    I consider lack of indication as uncourtious and downright rude to other road users. Indication is just that, an indication that I am about to change my road position and not a 'woah there boss you'd better slow down cause I'm moving in front of you'. The amount of drivers who I've heard say sure I was indicating and when you ask was it safe to move, they reply again; but I was indicating.

    I would love it if everyone taught as much about there own driving as much as they did/do about others, if that was the case we'd be a lot more courtious to each other.

    I think that 120km/h is acceptable at certain times, when its busy and there are ques of traffic at certain exits, like clondalkin/lucan a lower limit would be ok. The thing is the 120km/h is the max speed allowed but its dependant on the conditions, so we wouldn't even need a lower limit at certain times as people should drive to the conditions (chances?)

    The indicating thing, I've heard people say it like it means something definite, they dont realise its only an indication of intent, not a right of way. Some dont indicate at all, some think its a right of way, others do it wrong! :(.

    mathepac wrote: »
    Undertaking is both illegal and dangerous,if you don't agree get the road traffic laws changed, until then we simply obey them.
    Ok it is illegal, but technically, actually what is more dangerous about it than overtaking??
    If its that other/certain drivers dont expect you to be there, well they should, but they dont expect anyone to be overtaking them either, when they are in lane 2 or 3, If those people obeyed the laws we wouldn't have a problem?
    mathepac wrote: »
    The first is illegal and dangerous,

    Why is it considered dangerous? why do you consider it dangerous?
    other than that its written down that it's not allowed?
    If people followed rules rigidly and blindly we'd likely have more accidents on the road?
    Competent drivers should expect people to be where they least expect/they intend to move to when changing lane and be prepared accordingly, ok so maybe some people aren't as competent or dont care, so we have to take account for this by saying something isnt allowed?


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    #72
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    mathepac wrote: »
    Practising your golf, eh? Good idea, you don't seem to understand the names of lanes on motorways though.
    Hey you seem to be great at the ould golf but I suggest you need to brush up on your knowledge of motorways.

    Anyway be it golf or motoring you have to obey the laws man, otherwise where would we be? Chaos man, anarchy on the golf courses and the roads.

    I see , just like in the thread on consumer issues, you dont actually answer any posts, you just spout rubbish while quoting them.

    None of what you said is an answer to what I posted.

    I'll even teach you how. Try making actual point, showing how your right and what the actual way to do something is. You know, like th eway others are.


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    #73
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,536 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    mathepac wrote: »
    Practising your golf, eh? Good idea, you don't seem to understand the names of lanes on motorways though

    He understands the ROTR for fooks sake, will you stop obsessing with what people call the lanes.

    I sometimes drive on the M50 on weekdays, it's a different story, most people stay in the left lane (lane one before mister nomenclature hits the roof) unless overtaking the trucks. Fair enough you get the odd one in the middle lane (lane two), these seem to be out of towners not sure what exit they are taking, particularly coming towards the Malahide road exit. You get the odd smugger who's just too lazy to use the road properly in the right hand lane (lane three) doint 120kph... During the weekend the rules are out the window, particularly on Sunday evening when the daysul brigade get back from getting mammy to do the laundry.

    I don't think it should be 120kph. Too much going on.


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    #74
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    John_Rambo wrote: »

    I sometimes drive on the M50 on weekdays, it's a different story, most people stay in the left lane (lane one before mister nomenclature hits the roof) unless overtaking the trucks. Fair enough you get the odd one in the middle lane (lane two), these seem to be out of towners not sure what exit they are taking, particularly coming towards the Malahide road exit. You get the odd smugger who's just too lazy to use the road properly in the right hand lane (lane three) doint 120kph... During the weekend the rules are out the window, particularly on Sunday evening when the daysul brigade get back from getting mammy to do the laundry.
    .

    You must catch it on good days. I use it on average twice a day (weekends and weekdays) and the lane dicipline is appalling. At most, 15-20% of the traffic uses the inside lane. About 50% is in the middle lane (rarely even going as fast as the speed limit) and the other 30% or so is in the outside lane.


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    #75
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    mathepac wrote: »
    I know all this. Where have I argued the opposite?

    I might have gotten this wrong, it was just this bit:
    As there is no such thing as an "overtaking lane" it can't be illegal to drive on it.

    You seem to make the argument that since there is no overtaking lane, it is ok to drive on it.
    If I have misunderstood, my bad.
    As for getting caught, if a tourist/elderly person/someone just being obnoxious is blocking the right hand lane of a completely clear motorway at 80 km/h, I will try to move them over and failing that pass on the left.
    Yes it's technically illegal, no I don't do it very often (2-3 times a year at most) and I'm being careful about it. But I'm not sitting behind that person for my hour (now hour and twenty minutes thanks to Mr Slow And Oblivious) of my commute.
    It does happen rarely and I know I pays my money and takes my chances.

    I used to overtake on the inside, pull out ahead of the obstacle and gently slow down, till the other guy was trying to overtake me on the inside.
    Then speed up and repeat the process till the other guy was at boiling point.
    The floor it and goodbye.
    So you see I have calmed down, it used to drive me crazy, but then I was on the road and had things to do and places to go.


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    #76
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,536 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    You must catch it on good days. I use it on average twice a day (weekends and weekdays)

    Do you find the weekend worse?


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    #77
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    Do you find the weekend worse?

    TBH no, I just find it equally bad. :)


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    #78
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,536 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    TBH no, I just find it equally bad. :)

    Weird, I find it much better in the middle of a weekday than the weekend. Much more commercial traffic that tend to stay in the left lane, most of the middle lane slowly overtaking at about 100Kph and the right lane with the odd one overtaking again at bigger speeds.

    When I say most, I mean about 75%, the rest usually clueless.


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    #79
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    I see ... you dont actually answer any posts, you just spout rubbish while quoting them.

    None of what you said is an answer to what I posted.

    I'll even teach you how. Try making actual point, showing how your right and what the actual way to do something is. You know, like th eway others are.
    I'm under no obligation to answer your questions or any one else's.

    I've made the same point repeatedly - "undertaking is illegal and dangerous". If you understand that my work here is done, if you don't then I'm very much afraid you never will.


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    #80
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Merch wrote: »
    ... Competent drivers should expect people to be where they least expect/they intend to move to when changing lane and be prepared accordingly, ok so maybe some people aren't as competent or dont care, so we have to take account for this by saying something isnt allowed?
    A competent driver is one who has great spatial awareness, obeys the guidelines / laws for separation in two dimensions, who obeys the laws and the ROTR, is cognizant of driving conditions, whose behaviour is predictable and transparent to those around him. His movements are smooth and relaxed behind the wheel and he never takes risks by getting into situations where he is not in control. The keys to being a competent driver are care, courtesy and consideration at all times.

    Here endeth the lesson.


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    #81
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    mathepac wrote: »
    A competent driver is one who has great spatial awareness, obeys the guidelines / laws for separation in two dimensions, who obeys the laws and the ROTR, is cognizant of driving conditions, whose behaviour is predictable and transparent to those around him. His movements are smooth and relaxed behind the wheel and he never takes risks by getting into situations where he is not in control. The keys to being a competent driver are care, courtesy and consideration at all times.

    Here endeth the lesson.


    But why do you think it is dangerous? thats what I am trying to find out?

    People can be spatially aware undertaking, aware of conditions and those around them and make their movements known and transparent and do all that when undertaking.
    It seems that it is some almost redundant act, that no one really knows why its done but continues to do it anyway because thats the way its always been done.
    I think it was possibly introduced as a guideline of how to overtake in a 1 and 2 lane scenario, in multi lane scenarios greater than that it becomes a bit redundant as its silly to ask everyone to cram into one lane/side and have to weave back and forth (that is unsafe, as more lane changes) across a motorway to pass individual slow moving traffic.
    In a perfect world, people wouldn't hog the offside lane/s but it happens, you cannot compensate for some peoples lack of awareness.

    I think overtaking is preferable but I think if the relative difference in speed is low, that its safe to undertake. If its to be applicable then it wouldn't be an issue if people didn't avoid lane 1 and only drive in lane 2 and 3.
    I dont think care, courtesy or consideration are being applied by road users that block lane 2/3, I agree that care, courtesy and consideration are necessary but its seems to me its something that a driver undertaking can be but one hogging a lane has not thought of at all.

    I assume you dont undertake? so what do you think is dangerous about it?


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    #82
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Merch wrote: »
    But why do you think it is dangerous? ...
    But I don't think it is dangerous, I know it is.


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    #83
    booth70
    Registered Users Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭booth70


    Bottom line:

    The concept of motorway driving is relatively new to drivers in Ireland.....we've only had motorways for the last 10 years or so while most of Europe have had it for the last 50 years

    Therefore it will be another decade or so before people here learn to drive correctly on motorways


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    #84
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,696 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    mathepac wrote: »
    But I don't think it is dangerous, I know it is.

    Are you just going to keep saying things like this or are you going to explain why it is dangerous?


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    #85
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,536 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    irelandrover wrote: »
    Are you just going to keep saying things like this

    Or worse, are you just going to keep finding big words like cognizant?

    (American spelling from google ;))


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    #86
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    mathepac wrote: »
    I've made the same point repeatedly - "undertaking is illegal and dangerous".

    To use one of your own childish debating tactics: there is no reference to undertaking in law or the rules of the road, so it can't be illegal.


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    #87
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    mathepac wrote: »
    A competent driver is one who has great spatial awareness, obeys the guidelines / laws for separation in two dimensions, who obeys the laws and the ROTR, is cognizant of driving conditions, whose behaviour is predictable and transparent to those around him. His movements are smooth and relaxed behind the wheel and he never takes risks by getting into situations where he is not in control. The keys to being a competent driver are care, courtesy and consideration at all times.

    Here endeth the lesson.

    A: If a driver is sitting at 80 km/h in the "fasht" lane on a completely clear motorway and I can't get him to move over by flashing and indicating right, I will pass him on the inside.
    B: For any further questions and arguments, refer to point A


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    #88
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    mathepac wrote: »
    But I don't think it is dangerous, I know it is.

    Ok, well I'm trying to find out what you know about it to be dangerous?

    If its a law that was introduced far enough back, maybe its relevance isn't related to multi lane/motorway driving.

    I'm actually trying to see the pro's and cons of the situation.
    Is it still applicable on a modern motorway?
    If it is to be enforced then it should be done so rigidly but so should action about those blocking an outside lane (2/3). The thing is I think that is more difficult to do as it requires something more expensive and difficult, ie driver education. So it looks like it is the cheap and easy option to safety to me.
    I think it is safer to overtake on the outside, but I am still cautious of what other drivers might do then (ie I try to be prepared for what they might do), as people change lanes without warning/indication.

    I'm trying to find out what you think/know is the reason it is considered/ known to be dangerous?
    I routinely come across people on the motorway when it's quiet and busy in lane 3 going slow. When it's quiet there could be no-one around us as i approach them, if I'm in lane 1, why would I slow to pull in behind them to try and overtake, its much simpler and safer for me to keep going, we have a seperation of a lane, it isn't always that quiet or simple but it has happened.

    If you know whats dangerous about it, I'd just like you to say as the ROTR dont give an explanation why not or why it is a requirement.
    If there is a valid reason that is so obvious its staring people in the face that we dont see it, then surely it should be made very clear, instead of Its just not allowed, the reason to not undertake has to stand up to criticism, if it cant then it is not applicable and needs to be changed.

    Personally, I think people aren't going to expect a driver on their inside, but its a multilane road, they should, they should expect the unexpected and should not change lane unless they know it to be clear.
    But really that would be better dealt with by improved driver education instead of a blanket ban on something (undertaking) to compensate for something else (poor driver awareness/education about not staying in the outermost lanes after passing), its just that driver education isn't the easy or cheap option, the easy option is just have a blanket ban on undertaking.

    People should be capable of driving on a motorway where vehicles are all around them. It wouldn't be acceptable to say undertaking should be allowed at any speed, but at low relative (similar) speeds I think it should be allowed as no matter how much is spent on driver education, people will still hog the outermost lanes.

    So, why do you know about it that is dangerous?
    I'm open to opinion or fact that I haven't considered.


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    #89
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Merch wrote: »
    So, why do you know about it that is dangerous?

    It's dangerous because it is illegal and therefore unexpected. Anyone doing illegal and unexpected things on the road is more dangerous than someone doing legal and normal things.

    However, the big problem with American style undertaking is the you end up with all lanes travelling at the same speed (the speed of the slowest drivers), with people trying to make progress having to weave between them.

    This would be Bad, so passing on the left should remain illegal, and only be used in exceptional circumstances like that muppet driving a Japanese crapbox in the right hand lane from Dublin to Galway at 100 kph last Monday.


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    #90
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    It's dangerous because it is illegal and therefore unexpected. Anyone doing illegal and unexpected things on the road is more dangerous than someone doing legal and normal things.

    Nothing should ever be unexpected when it comes to driving. Just because a car "shouldnt" be coming up their inside doesnt mean that I can pull in without looking. I really dont understand why a car changing lanes into the path/side of another car makes puts the other car at fault; the accident happened becuase the person changing lanes didnt check that the lane was clear to move into, end of story.


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    #91
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    It's dangerous because it is illegal and therefore unexpected. Anyone doing illegal and unexpected things on the road is more dangerous than someone doing legal and normal things.

    However, the big problem with American style undertaking is the you end up with all lanes travelling at the same speed (the speed of the slowest drivers), with people trying to make progress having to weave between them.

    This would be Bad, so passing on the left should remain illegal, and only be used in exceptional circumstances like that muppet driving a Japanese crapbox in the right hand lane from Dublin to Galway at 100 kph last Monday.

    If thats the only reason, then i dont find that a good enough reason, there has to be more than that. If its unexpected because its illegal then it should be made legal, at least on motorways, I think the rules are generally simple and straightforward, simply allowing undertaking on motorways allowable then means people should expect it. (Drivers should expect unexpected things then people would be prepared, thats coming across road conditions/circumstances and hazards and dealing with them appropriately).
    I suggest it should be that primarily people should be expected to overtake (ie make an attempt to do that) where thats not possible undertaking should be allowed at a similar speed (ie not zooming past at a significantly greater speed).

    Regarding the example above, I dont feel that people driving in the righthand lane is exceptional, people seem to do it as a rule, so its poor driver education thats the problem.

    As far as im aware, only certain states in the US allow undertaking, ie where there are large multilane highways, the reason being it is not safe to have people weaving back and forward repeatedly to pass people moving slower in multiple lanes, it certainly must have an energy saving (reduction in mileage over the course of say a year with so many cars, tyre wear etc) but it has to be safer in that environment. Mostly I dont think those reasons apply here simply as we dont have the size and coverage of motorways.

    I still think it is as safe for me to pass on the inside if Im coming from afar and if a car hasnt moved into lane 1 or 2 then they are oblivous to me (ie to whats going on around them) so shouldnt be on a motorway anyway.

    I think undertaking on a motorway should not be illegal, people do far worse things, but if drivers dont expect the unexpected and as such aren't prepared for it or what to do, not expecting either dangerous conditions or drivers and illegal or just plain stupid stuff then they should not be on the roads because that stuff is happening all the time, in that context undertaking isn't serious.
    I think it should be undertaking is allowed on motorways (possibly not dual carriageways as there may be slow moving traffic coming onto the road) but only if its clear that a driver blocking a lane will not move, not to zoom past at 150kph.


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