Ulster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

awec · 05-03-2015 2:30pm

They went for the 8 week ban originally?

Incompetence. This is a joke.

We absolutely must appeal.

RobbieRuns · 05-03-2015 3:15pm

Appeals can go two ways......

Utah_Saint · 05-03-2015 3:58pm

Is there any footage available of the incident?

ssaye2 · 05-03-2015 4:00pm

Disciplinary Update - Roger Wilson
For immediate release: Thursday 5 March 2015
Issued on behalf of GUINNESS PRO12 Rugby

Roger Wilson, the Ulster back row forward, appeared today before an independent PRO12 Rugby Disciplinary Committee, following a citing for allegedly striking an opponent during the second half of the Guinness PRO12 match between Ulster and Scarlets on Friday 27 February 2015.

The Disciplinary Committee, chaired by Roddy Dunlop, sitting with Pamela Woodman and John Kirk (all Scotland), having listened to representations by and on behalf of the player, and viewed TV footage of the incident, found that Roger Wilson had committed an act of foul play which would have warranted a red card and considered it to be reckless rather than intentional, and at the low end of World Rugby's sanctions for this type of offence, which carries an entry-point of 2 weeks.

The Committee found that there were no aggravating factors, and after taking into account the mitigating factors, they reduced the entry point by one week and imposed a one week suspension. The player is suspended from playing until midnight on Sunday 8 March 2015, and has the right of appeal.

Law 10.4 (a) Punching or Striking. A player must strike an opponent with the fist or arm, including the elbow, shoulder, head or knee(s).

CatFromHue · 05-03-2015 4:02pm

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Is there any footage available of the incident?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DN8U-6wyGOg&list=PL9mmlCY22idl-yHVp2c-qXssxr9s_DJkP#t=4582

S12b · 05-03-2015 4:24pm

Hmmm just took a look at it there, 5 weeks may be harsh but I'm not surprised he has been banned.

From the outset, I'm not anti Ulster or anything and I thought the ban given to McCloskey was OTT but having watched the clip about 10 times, his actions are at worst intentional and at best reckless. In Marshall's defence, he doesn't strike me as nasty so I'll say reckless.

It's a basic piece of footwork to turn around and get into the defensive line but at all times he's looking down at the players head, because of this he has no excuse for making contact with the players head. Based on where his right foot is planted, his left foot clipping the head is a bit dodgy for me.

I think the rules are fairly clear at present, if you make contact with a head with your boot, there is every chance you could be banned, especially if the action can be characterised as reckless, which I think this can be. 5 weeks is harsh for me but overall, I don't think a ban is shocking....players owe other players a duty of care....stray boots to the head shouldn't be tolerated.

The Lost Sheep · 05-03-2015 4:26pm

awec wrote: »

They went for the 8 week ban originally?

Incompetence. This is a joke.

We absolutely must appeal.

8 weeks is the entry point in the tiered system. His kick was deemed mid range and it was reduced.
Considering ive sent players off in recent weeks for kicks to head that was most certainly mid range though a reduction is fair.
He was looking at what he was doing. He strikes a player lying on ground in the head

total former · 05-03-2015 4:26pm

Yeah, actually the more I think about this, the less shocked I am. It's going back to the whole "duty of care" thing; maybe Marshall didn't mean to boot him in the head but he didn't go out of his way to avoid it.

Still, the ban itself seems pretty lengthy, an entry-level offence would seem more reasonable.

MJohnston · 05-03-2015 4:44pm

To me it's another instance of slow-motion replays making incidents look worse than they were. Take a look at it in real-time:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=819288248150276&set=vb.126216190790822&type=2&theater

I don't see any intent there, but in slow-motion it looks malicious.

CatFromHue · 05-03-2015 4:55pm

I think it actually looks worse there as it looks more deliberate and sneaky.

S12b · 05-03-2015 5:18pm

Ulster themselves obviously aren't too impressed.....they just posted this...."flick";)

https://twitter.com/UlsterRugby/status/573511123661643777

CatFromHue · 05-03-2015 5:28pm

They can be impressed or unimpressed all they want, that clip looks worse than the slow mo, it looks like he deliberately left the leg in to hit your man.

Remember the Lanelli guy had to be taken off with concussion and didn't play anymore in that game so it wasn't just a little flick either.

S12b · 05-03-2015 5:32pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

They can be impressed or unimpressed all they want, that clip looks worse than the slow mo, it looks like he deliberately left the leg in to hit your man.

Remember the Lanelli guy had to be taken off with concussion and didn't play anymore in that game so it wasn't just a little flick either.

Oh I'm with you, I'm just highlighting how Ulster are trying to portray it!! Think people forget just how vulnerable the head can be with, what if the roles were reversed and Marshall took a reckless boot to the head....another one or two concussions could end his career....boots to the head shouldn't be tolerated.

bilston · 05-03-2015 7:01pm

Marshall has probably fallen victim to the current climate in relation to head injuries...Ironic really...

I doubt very much that it was intentional but then it can't be proved one way or the other.

It's as well Olding will be back for the Cardiff game. Not sure how the midfield will look against the Dragons.

Hagz · 05-03-2015 8:21pm

I'm with Ulster on this one. Absolutely nothing in it. 5 weeks is a joke.

bilston · 05-03-2015 8:27pm

Hagz wrote: »

I'm with Ulster on this one. Absolutely nothing in it. 5 weeks is a joke.

The thing is it isn't the sort of thing that is going to carry a 2 week ban. Once the panel decided that it is wreckless or deliberate then they have to hand out a severe ban.

total former · 05-03-2015 9:13pm

S12b wrote: »

Ulster themselves obviously aren't too impressed.....they just posted this....

The fact that there's a flick in the first place is the problem. Just stupidity from Marshall.

bilston · 05-03-2015 10:17pm

S12b wrote: »

Ulster themselves obviously aren't too impressed.....they just posted this...."flick";)

https://twitter.com/UlsterRugby/status/573511123661643777

I think they said on Facebook that they posted video due to numerous requests from supporters.

That's effectively four red cards for Ulster this season and six in 11 months. Crazy.

I don't even think we are a dirty team, you could probably argue the toss over 4 of those cards (Payne, McCloskey, Marshall and Wilson) and yet letter of the law the correct decision was to send the player off, yet I don't think there was any malice or intention in any of the incidents. I suppose there is a growing feeling, rightly or wrongly, that we are always on the wrong end of these decisions. For example what sanction was there against Kearney for his tackle on Jackson last season? A yellow card? Personally I thought that was fair enough but having seen some of the red cards or citings dished out this season I'd say Kearney got away with one. What did the Toulon player get for kicking Olding in the head in what was a lot more obvious than Marshall's incident? 4 weeks I think.

Our suspensions are close to matching our injury count at the moment!

awec · 05-03-2015 10:30pm

The inconsistency is the worst bit. Especially when we are the ones consistently being screwed.

bilston · 05-03-2015 10:36pm

So what about the midfield for the Dragons?

Cave and A.N. Other

Allen to 12 with Scholes coming onto the wing seems the most obvious option.

We could also move Ludik to the centre and stick Nelson at 15.

Or we could be really brave and throw Sam Arnold in but that probably isn't on the cards.

05-03-2015 10:38pm

From this angle I'm not overly surprised he's been banned. Can easily see that being a red if reviewed by the TMO. For me he's definitely made an odd movement with his leg. I don't think he meant to kick the guy in the face, maybe looked to toe the ball away and just made a bags of it.

Bridge93 · 05-03-2015 10:51pm

On a separate issue, how **** was the TMO on the Roger Wilson incident? No doubt it was totally accidental but every time there looked like a good angle the TMO changed it just before the "punch" as it's being called was made.

vienne86 · 05-03-2015 11:30pm

S12b wrote: »

Ulster themselves obviously aren't too impressed.....they just posted this...."flick";)

https://twitter.com/UlsterRugby/status/573511123661643777

It was very careless of Marshall, but 5 weeks seems a bit harsh to me.

Hagz · 05-03-2015 11:32pm

Oh wait.....I thought it was supposed to be his right shin that catches him. I see now that he flicks his left foot. I'm not sure it was intentional but I can see now why he's received a ban.

mfceiling · 05-03-2015 11:41pm

bilston wrote: »

So what about the midfield for the Dragons?

Cave and A.N. Other

Allen to 12 with Scholes coming onto the wing seems the most obvious option.

We could also move Ludik to the centre and stick Nelson at 15.

Or we could be really brave and throw Sam Arnold in but that probably isn't on the cards.

:pac::pac:

jacothelad · 05-03-2015 11:44pm

Cave at 12, Allen or Ludik at 13 and / or Ludik, Scholes, Nelson or Andrew at 14 / 15

bilston · 06-03-2015 12:12am

jacothelad wrote: »

Cave at 12, Allen or Ludik at 13 and / or Ludik, Scholes, Nelson or Andrew at 14 / 15

It would be good to see Scholes get a start.

bilston · 06-03-2015 9:19am

Was just reading UAFC and was reminded that AOC was cited for an aggressive choke tackle, so that is effectively 7 red cards in 11 months. Whether justified or not that is absolutely shocking discipline. Doak needs to look at this asap and we need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves. Some of them may and do appear harsh but they keep happening.

Between injuries, suspensions, playing players out of position, players leaving last year and changes at the top we seem determined to do everything with one arm tied behind our backs this season. It's a miracle we are actually doing as well as we are...results wise anyway...

shuffol · 06-03-2015 10:08am

I can see why Ulster fans may be aggrieved, they'd players kicked in the head earlier in the season and the perpetrators only got a week or two. It seems like they get done just when its decided that it needs to be clamped down on more. Much like Payne last season. Their like guinea pigs for the IRB.

awec · 06-03-2015 10:16am

Yup. No more red cards for tackles in the air since Payne. :rolleyes:

jacothelad · 06-03-2015 10:38am

Deliberate or recklessly violent conduct has no place in the game. However we seem to be on the end of some really crappy decisions. The Payne, O'Connor, Marshall, Wilson suspensions were all ludicrous to a degree.

Payne's was an accident, complete and utter nonsense in the context of how the game is played. If you ant to remove accidental collisions from rugby you have to ban the game.

O'Connor had a guy lying on top of him and did what we'd all do - threw him off. How was he to know he was unconscious. I'm pretty certain he wasn't checking the guys respiration while a 16 stone player was lying on his chest.

Marshall's is ridiculous. Look at DOC's deliberate kick on Olding....two weeks for a clearly deliberate boot to the head. POC's accidental and maybe reckless boot on Kearney jnr was just that - an accident. no different to Marshall but a whole lot more dangerous....and rightly no action was taken.

Wilson tried to dislodge a ball, something done multiple times in every game. The ball hits the guy in the kite. Wilson gets banned....ffs

McCloskey was maybe borderline, held a guy up...unwisely and possibly dangerous of itself but he didn't drop the guy, an opponent ran in and clattered into him causing him to release the legs. It was like taking out a lifter in the line out.

Deccie hit a guy with a pat to the bake after having his face rearranged by an Italian clawed hand....red card? In Law but we've seen many a handbag like that given a yellow.

Court's was the other that was clearly stupid and a red.

.ak · 06-03-2015 10:43am

Is there an clips of the Wilson incident?

jacothelad · 06-03-2015 10:47am

.ak wrote: »

Is there an clips of the Wilson incident?

Might be something on UAFC. He swung an arm to dislodge a ball. Open handed. Cited for punching. Travesty. T'Eo gets warned for far worse - even though I don't think that was worthy of a citing. His victim caused the problem by poor technique. Barclay got a bloody nose from the ball. The worst action of the Ulster game was Williams over vigourous - and legal - ruck clear out which has damaged Shingler's shoulder. Not even a whisper. This citing nonsense is now bringing the game into disrepute. Guys getting above their station with a bit of power. It's nearly all ballix as far as I can see. Looking at slo-mo action doesn't show the reality.

total former · 06-03-2015 10:50am

It was going ok until you tried to brush off the Fitzpatrick punch. A more clear cut red you will never see.

The AOC one was pretty bad too. He choked a guy unconscious FFS.

bilston · 06-03-2015 10:52am

jacothelad wrote: »

Deliberate or recklessly violent conduct has no place in the game. However we seem to be on the end of some really crappy decisions. The Payne, O'Connor, Marshall, Wilson suspensions were all ludicrous to a degree.

Payne's was an accident, complete and utter nonsense in the context of how the game is played. If you ant to remove accidental collisions from rugby you have to ban the game.

O'Connor had a guy lying on top of him and did what we'd all do - threw him off. How was he to know he was unconscious. I'm pretty certain he wasn't checking the guys respiration while a 16 stone player was lying on his chest.

Marshall's is ridiculous. Look at DOC's deliberate kick on Olding....two weeks for a clearly deliberate boot to the head. POC's accidental and maybe reckless boot on Kearney jnr was just that - an accident. no different to Marshall but a whole lot more dangerous....and rightly no action was taken.

Wilson tried to dislodge a ball, something done multiple times in every game. The ball hits the guy in the kite. Wilson gets banned....ffs

McCloskey was maybe borderline, held a guy up...unwisely and possibly dangerous of itself but he didn't drop the guy, an opponent ran in and clattered into him causing him to release the legs. It was like taking out a lifter in the line out.

Deccie hit a guy with a pat to the bake after having his face rearranged by an Italian clawed hand....red card? In Law but we've seen many a handbag like that given a yellow.

Court's was the other that was clearly stupid and a red.

I agree with all that but why does it seem to be only happening to us?

jacothelad · 06-03-2015 11:00am

total former wrote: »

It was going ok until you tried to brush off the Fitzpatrick punch. A more clear cut red you will never see.

The AOC one was pretty bad too. He choked a guy unconscious FFS.

He didn't choke a guy into unconsciousness. He was never near his neck and tracheal region. That is just nonsense. The player had a huge pile of bodies on top of him. If he really did become unconscious then there may be some thing wrong with him. The time line of the event certainly would not cause a healthy, strong, fit professional athlete to lose consciouness simply by an opponent wrapping his arms around his upper torso.

I wasn't brushing off Fitzpatrick's punch. It was pretty ineffectual and we've often seen yellow cards issued for similar. Remember POC clocking Cudmore in front of the A.R. after being attacked - yelllow card. Deccie gets his bake ripped and retaliates. Red card. My main gripe really was that there was clear evidence of Bertgamasco's skulduggery on Deccie yet nothing was done.

bilston · 06-03-2015 11:03am

Just on Marshall I think what happened was that he initially thought there was an opportunity to kick the ball away, realised at the last moment there wasn't so he tried to pull out and unfortunately clipped the players noggin. Clearly an accident and everything we know about Marshall would suggest there is no way he would deliberately kick someone on the head.

5 weeks is still very harsh IMO compared to other sanctions for similar and worse offences and that is where we as Ulster fans can feel aggrieved, but I'm not surprised he got a ban. Just 2 weeks would have been enough although leaving the guidelines to the side I'd have thought a stern talking to was more appropriate!

bilston · 06-03-2015 1:08pm

Team's up for Dragons

Headlines
Cave to skipper side
Hendy at 6
Stanley gets a start at 12
Scholes and Arnold on the pine

15 Louis Ludik
14 Craig Gilroy
13 Darren Cave (capt)
12 Mike Stanley
11 Michael Allen
10 Ian Humphreys
9 Ruan Pienaar
1 Callum Black
2 Rob Herring
3 Wiebhan Herbst
4 Dan Tuohy
5 Franco Van Der Merwe
6 Iain Henderson
7 Clive Ross
8 Nick Williams

16 John Andrew, 17 Andrew Warwick, 18 Bronson Ross, 19 Lewis Stevenson, 20 Robbie Diack, 21 Paul Marshall, 22 Sam Arnold, 23 Rory Scholes

Tox56 · 06-03-2015 1:11pm

bilston wrote: »

Team's up for Dragons

Headlines
Cave to skipper side
Hendy at 6
Stanley gets a start at 12
Scholes and Arnold on the pine

15 Louis Ludik
14 Craig Gilroy
13 Darren Cave (capt)
12 Mike Stanley
11 Michael Allen
10 Ian Humphreys
9 Ruan Pienaar
1 Callum Black
2 Rob Herring
3 Wiebhan Herbst
4 Dan Tuohy
5 Franco Van Der Merwe
6 Iain Henderson
7 Clive Ross
8 Nick Williams

16 John Andrew, 17 Andrew Warwick, 18 Bronson Ross, 19 Lewis Stevenson, 20 Robbie Diack, 21 Paul Marshall, 22 Sam Arnold, 23 Rory Scholes

Sam Arnold?! Hes a year underage for the 20s even. They blood them young up north anyway

.ak · 06-03-2015 1:12pm

Arnold's an absolute beast, would love to see him get a jog out against a senior side.

bilston · 06-03-2015 1:15pm

Tox56 wrote: »

Sam Arnold?! Hes a year underage for the 20s even. They blood them young up north anyway

He is a unit though.

To be fair we are missing Payne, Olding, Marshall and McCloskey, plus we have an emergency signing in the midifeld in Stanley so I suppose it was inevitable that we'd have to tap into the Academy at some point, although Nelson could have benched with Ludik covering centre instead so that is a sign of faith in Arnold.

awec · 06-03-2015 1:17pm

Arnold is another young promising centre, right?

I rejoice at the sight of Hendo at 6.

Buer · 06-03-2015 1:58pm

Interestingly, Sam Arnold was a scrum half until the past year.

He looks a really good prospect but, what I cannot get, is that he's someone that Ulster tracked and signed as an exile. Would it not have made more sense for the IRFU to try and steer him elsewhere? Will he really get much of a look in at Ulster given their resources at 12 and 13?

CatFromHue · 06-03-2015 2:44pm

That little "flick" by Marshall has resulted in the Lanelli player missing this weekend's game through concussion.

CatFromHue · 06-03-2015 3:03pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Deliberate or recklessly violent conduct has no place in the game. However we seem to be on the end of some really crappy decisions. The Payne, O'Connor, Marshall, Wilson suspensions were all ludicrous to a degree.

Payne's was an accident, complete and utter nonsense in the context of how the game is played. If you ant to remove accidental collisions from rugby you have to ban the game.

O'Connor had a guy lying on top of him and did what we'd all do - threw him off. How was he to know he was unconscious. I'm pretty certain he wasn't checking the guys respiration while a 16 stone player was lying on his chest.

Marshall's is ridiculous. Look at DOC's deliberate kick on Olding....two weeks for a clearly deliberate boot to the head. POC's accidental and maybe reckless boot on Kearney jnr was just that - an accident. no different to Marshall but a whole lot more dangerous....and rightly no action was taken.

Wilson tried to dislodge a ball, something done multiple times in every game. The ball hits the guy in the kite. Wilson gets banned....ffs

McCloskey was maybe borderline, held a guy up...unwisely and possibly dangerous of itself but he didn't drop the guy, an opponent ran in and clattered into him causing him to release the legs. It was like taking out a lifter in the line out.

Deccie hit a guy with a pat to the bake after having his face rearranged by an Italian clawed hand....red card? In Law but we've seen many a handbag like that given a yellow.

Court's was the other that was clearly stupid and a red.

If Dylan Hartley or Delon Armitage had done any of the things the Ulster lads above did, bar the O'Connor one as I never saw it, I think you'd have a very different opinion of the incidents.

bilston · 06-03-2015 3:06pm

awec wrote: »

Arnold is another young promising centre, right?

I rejoice at the sight of Hendo at 6.

Yeah good to see Henderson at 6.

Yep Arnold is another from the school of inside centres though as Buer says was developed elsewhere. Looks a good player, but only 18.

bilston · 06-03-2015 3:07pm

Buer wrote: »

Interestingly, Sam Arnold was a scrum half until the past year.

He looks a really good prospect but, what I cannot get, is that he's someone that Ulster tracked and signed as an exile. Would it not have made more sense for the IRFU to try and steer him elsewhere? Will he really get much of a look in at Ulster given their resources at 12 and 13?

Most of our centres usually end up injured, concussed or suspended so he will probably get his fair share of games!

Buer · 06-03-2015 3:17pm

bilston wrote: »

Most of our centres usually end up injured, concussed or suspended so he will probably get his fair share of games!

I now fully expect Arnold to loaf someone tomorrow and, in doing so, split his eye, give himself concussion and cop a 10 week suspension.

awec · 06-03-2015 3:33pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

If Dylan Hartley or Delon Armitage had done any of the things the Ulster lads above did, bar the O'Connor one as I never saw it, I think you'd have a very different opinion of the incidents.

Armitage and Harltey are serial offenders. Not at all comparable.

CatFromHue · 06-03-2015 3:41pm

awec wrote: »

Armitage and Harltey are serial offenders. Not at all comparable.

That's the point though.

If Hartley or Armitage were running by a player on the ground and stuck out the boot like Marshall did, while looking straight at the player on the ground, people would be saying it's a deliberate kick and calling for a long ban.

Because it's Marshall people are saying it's a ridiculous ban.

The action deserved a ban no matter who did it.

Ulster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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