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Irish Teen Fears Execution in Egypt

13567…111

Comments

  • #102
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,867 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Hitchens wrote: »
    17 years of age is ripe for radicalization, his 'oul lad should have tried to persuade him not to go there
    Daddy probably radicalised him. Zero sympathy.


  • #103
    Smiles35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭Smiles35


    CptMackey wrote: »
    They went over to Egypt for what? Holidays?
    Father is involved with some lovely people who are all about sharia law.

    So there they are just walking along and hey look a protest. Let's have a look. Oops we got arrested but we are not involved I just partake in sharia law on weekends.

    Btw I'm Irish. Help me Ireland.

    You made you bed so lie in it .

    He wants too. Wanted to go on hunger strike.


  • #104
    whats the point
    Closed Accounts Posts: 132 ✭✭whats the point


    whirlpool wrote: »
    500 people to have their lives ended because they rioted.

    Whoever made that decision should be publicly castrated with blunt tools without anaesthetic and then thrown to semi-hungry lions, who'll eat his lower body now and maybe finish the rest tomorrow, maybe the next day.

    The life of one evil monster to save god knows how many poor souls. I'm okay with that.


    Hello Nero!!! History classes you as a monster also...


  • #105
    silverbolt
    Registered Users Posts: 362 ✭✭silverbolt


    wes wrote: »
    What his father is or isn't is surely irrelevant.

    Considering the way Islamic families operate using a very strong patriarchal system id say its very relevant. The father would almost certainly have instilled similar ideals as his own into his son.


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    Disregarding your utter contempt for anything different and grossly sweeping generalizations I'll make a few points.

    He's not a grown man yet. His religious views are purely a product of his environment i.e. his parents. How do you know he won't leave Islam when he's older? Maybe he even might begin to develop the same ideology towards religion that you have? I'm not saying this is a good thing but it's a definite possibility. However, by your line of thinking, he was born to Muslims and therefore he deserves to be killed for what he has (or hasn't) done. You presume he went "looking for trouble" and blame him as a person for what his environment and upbringing made him. You essentially want him to pay with his life for what everyone in his life but him has done.

    He's still a kid who doesn't have a fecking clue about life.

    How do you know he wont go the other way and decide to blow himself and a Dublin bus full of people up? Would you blame him or his upbringing then?

    On one hand - hes an irish citizen (and his skin colour doesnt matter a damn he was born here/nationalized here then hes irish) and yes our government should be helping him.

    On the other he went over there for good or ill reasons (and it was just a strange coincidence he ended up where he did?) and now hes bleating about how he's irish because it suits him and hes trying (understandably) to get out of it.


  • #106
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Only read the first couple of lines but who is he threatening with the hunger strike and to what end? "I think your going to execute me so I'm going to starve myself to death to force you not too"


  • #107
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,669 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    metroburgers wrote: »
    Violent revolution, religious justification, overthrow current regime, leaders executed, other prisoners interred indefinitely...

    Hmm, well my history is a bit hazy but I'm fairly sure the people in 1916 didn't go over to another country and start the Rising there, also they were fighting against a foreign power to get them out of our country.

    Let Egypt sort out it's own problems, what goes on over there is nothing to do with us, as I said before all he had to do was stay here and he would be fine.

    Kinda strange that he went over on holiday and managed to get involved in rioting though.


  • #108
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    silverbolt wrote: »
    Considering the way Islamic families operate using a very strong patriarchal system id say its very relevant. The father would almost certainly have instilled similar ideals as his own into his son.





    How do you know he wont go the other way and decide to blow himself and a Dublin bus full of people up? Would you blame him or his upbringing then?

    On one hand - hes an irish citizen (and his skin colour doesnt matter a damn he was born here/nationalized here then hes irish) and yes our government should be helping him.

    On the other he went over there for good or ill reasons (and it was just a strange coincidence he ended up where he did?) and now hes bleating about how he's irish because it suits him and hes trying (understandably) to get out of it.

    Your scenario is significantly less likely to happen. The most likely outcome is he just goes about his business like a normal person. Can we just leave it at that?

    Also, i'm pretty sure he hasn't been doing much "bleating" from prison over there. You also haven't mentioned where you stand. I don't know why he was over there but my point stands, a 17 year old Irish person shouldn't be condemned to death in a foreign country and have his nation stand idly by. Just my opinion, feel free to disagree.


  • #109
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Anyone remember all this hand wringing going on when that walter mitty sap was shot while trying to organise a coup in bolivia?


  • #110
    Smiles35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭Smiles35


    Bambi wrote: »
    Anyone remember all this hand wringing going on when that walter mitty sap was shot while trying to organise a coup in bolivia?

    Naw, the handwringing is on the ''other-side'' on this one. ''How can we love a black baby?'' lol


  • #111
    Sunglasses Ron
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Sunglasses Ron


    wes wrote: »
    I

    Last I checked Al Qaeda actually hate the Muslim Brotherhood for taking part in elections.


    It is a bit like the difference between the UDA and the LVF.

    At a push the LVF are probably the worst of the two, but it is a pretty fine and irrelevant line.
    What his father is or isn't is surely irrelevant.

    Hardly.

    If a minor commits a crime the level of parental supervision is usually something society tends to scrutinize.

    If you have ever chatted to many people from Lancashire or Birmingham you might get the impression that towns filled with native born citizens who harbour extreme Islamist beliefs usually aren't the happiest of places. From the evidence shown thus far it would seem Ireland would be best off rid of this clown and his father, passport or not. I don't seem to recall much PC hand wringing here when John Gilligan was forced to leave the country, what's the difference here? This kid and his father seem to be aligning themselves with ideologies that have killed far more people than Gilligan ever did.


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  • #112
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    silverbolt wrote: »
    Considering the way Islamic families operate using a very strong patriarchal system id say its very relevant. The father would almost certainly have instilled similar ideals as his own into his son.

    Oh please, Muslim families are as varied as any other. Its nonsense to suggest that there all the same. So again what his father may or may not be involved in, is irrelevant, unless you can show his son was also involved.

    There is 0 proof of this. The fact remain the Muslim Brotherhood, were democratically elected, and protesters who supported them were shot in the street, and strangely that behavior is not considered extreme or radical, or even worth a mention. Instead we have a rather bizarre version of events that ignores inconvenient facts. The Junta were the ones who started killing people in the streets, and not the other guy.


  • #113
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Sunglasses Ron wrote: »
    It is a bit like the difference between the UDA and the LVF.

    At a push the LVF are probably the worst of the two, but it is a pretty fine and irrelevant line.

    Oh its not irrelevant at all, and the fact remains is that the organizations do not have links to one another. Trying to move the goal posts after the fact doesn't change that inconvenient fact. If you have issues with the Muslim Brotherhood, then by all means point those out. It wouldn't even be that difficult to find some, but instead you make false claims about being linked to Al Qaeda, and when called on it, try to change the goal posts.
    Sunglasses Ron wrote: »
    Hardly.

    Up to you to prove it.
    Sunglasses Ron wrote: »
    If a minor commits a crime the level of parental supervision is usually something society tends to scrutinize.

    So its a crime to protest against an military coup, who murdered people in the streets? Amazing how that is ignored again and again.
    Sunglasses Ron wrote: »
    If you have ever chatted to many people from Lancashire or Birmingham you might get the impression that towns filled with native born citizens who harbour extreme Islamist beliefs usually aren't the happiest of places.

    I fail to see what this has to do with the young lad in Egypt at all, other than you assuming he is some kind of extremist.
    Sunglasses Ron wrote: »
    From the evidence shown thus far it would seem Ireland would be best off rid of this clown and his father, passport or not.

    Guilt by association is not evidence of anything, especially as his father hasn't been found guilty of any crimes.
    Sunglasses Ron wrote: »
    I don't seem to recall much PC hand wringing here when John Gilligan was forced to leave the country, what's the difference here? This kid and his father seem to be aligning themselves with ideologies that have killed far more people than Gilligan ever did.

    So, throw people out of the country on the basis of there beliefs, and not on anything they have done, or are planning to do? Interesting POV. So protesting against a coup is something we should strip citizenship for.

    BTW, John Gilligan received a fair trial, the young lad was convicted by a Kangaroo court run by a murderous military Junta, with plenty of blood on there hands, not that seems to matter at all or anything. After, the fact that the military were the largely responsible for the violence in Egypt seems to be ignored for some reason.

    Also, should we also strip the citizenship of people who said they agreed with the Egyptian coup, on account of all the people they killed? After all you want to punish people for taught crimes after all.


  • #114
    Smiles35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭Smiles35


    Sunglasses Ron wrote: »
    If you have ever chatted to many people from Lancashire or Birmingham you might get the impression that towns filled with native born citizens who harbour extreme Islamist beliefs usually aren't the happiest of places. From the evidence shown thus far it would seem Ireland would be best off rid of this clown and his father, passport or not. I don't seem to recall much PC hand wringing here when John Gilligan was forced to leave the country, what's the difference here? This kid and his father seem to be aligning themselves with ideologies that have killed far more people than Gilligan ever did.

    This reads like Dawkins. They are both selling drugs for profit in your book? At least I know where this 'crime' in a civil war thing is coming from.


  • #115
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,004 ✭✭✭conorhal


    wes wrote: »
    Oh its not irrelevant at all, and the fact remains is that the organizations do not have links to one another. Trying to move the goal posts after the fact doesn't change that inconvenient fact. If you have issues with the Muslim Brotherhood, then by all means point those out. It wouldn't even be that difficult to find some, but instead you make false claims about being linked to Al Qaeda, and when called on it, try to change the goal posts.


    So its a crime to protest against an military coup, who murdered people in the streets? Amazing how that is ignored again and again.



    So, throw people out of the country on the basis of there beliefs, and not on anything they have done, or are planning to do? Interesting POV. So protesting against a coup is something we should strip citizenship for.

    BTW, John Gilligan received a fair trial, the young lad was convicted by a Kangaroo court run by a murderous military Junta, with plenty of blood on there hands, not that seems to matter at all or anything. After, the fact that the military were the largely responsible for the violence in Egypt seems to be ignored for some reason.

    Also, should we also strip the citizenship of people who said they agreed with the Egyptian coup, on account of all the people they killed? After all you want to punish people for taught crimes after all.

    Prior to them getting chucked out there were very large protests against the Muslim Brotherhood's behaviour, their reaction to those protests was no different to the military's. Or are you forgetting that?

    The Muslim brotherhood may have been democratically elected, but so was Putin, that doesn't make them any less evil, and the speed at which they were dismantling democracy as soon as they achieved power should tell you all you need to know about the MB and their (sic) 'democratic credentials'. They were very much in the vein of 'one man, one vote, one time'.

    I find it laughable that anybody could condsider them as defending democracy any more than it could be said of Putin or any autocrat that attempts to cloak themselves in it's respectability while doing everything to dismantle it at the same time.


  • #116
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    conorhal wrote: »
    Prior to them getting chucked out there were very large protests against the Muslim Brotherhood's behaviour, their reaction to those protests was no different to the military's. Or are you forgetting that?

    I am not forgetting them at all. You will find that Mursi didn't order the military to fire on protesters in the streets, for all his faults, he didn't go on the same kind of murderous rampage that the Junta did.

    Secondly, a military coup regardless of protest against the sitting government is hardly part of a democratic process, and then there is the fact that the former government party was banned, no elections have been held yet, and then the current head of the military (who will or has "resigned") running in the elections (after banning there main rival).

    Then there is also the fact that even secular opponents of the Muslim Brotherhood have also been arrested (you know some of the people protesting Mursi's admin):

    Egypt jails Ahmed Maher and other secular activists

    So no I have no forgot the protests, nor have I forgotten that the military have squandered any shred of legitimacy that they may have had, after they not only started murdering protesters in the streets, but once things calmed down even started arresting some of the people who were against Mursi as well.
    conorhal wrote: »
    The Muslim brotherhood may have been democratically elected, but so was Putin, that doesn't make them any less evil, and the speed at which they were dismantling democracy as soon as they achieved power should tell you all you need to know about the MB and their (sic) 'democratic credentials'. They were very much in the vein of 'one man, one vote, one time'.

    Except that the Brotherhood didn't actually manage to do that. Now the military Junta did exactly that, and for some reason you have no issue with it, and then they happily killed protesters, when they weren't on there side. Hardly defenders of democracy.
    conorhal wrote: »
    I find it laughable that anybody could condsider them as defending democracy any more than it could be said of Putin or any autocrat that attempts to cloak themselves in it's respectability while doing everything to dismantle it at the same time.

    I find it amazing that you are so quick to support a murderous military Junta that butchered people in the street, and has arrested the opposition (secular or otherwise) and is now poised to put a military strong man in charge, after the violent over throw of the democratically elected government.


  • #117
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Bambi wrote: »
    Anyone remember all this hand wringing going on when that walter mitty sap was shot while trying to organise a coup in bolivia?

    Yep.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055540650


  • #118
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sunglasses Ron wrote: »
    It is a bit like the difference between the UDA and the LVF.

    At a push the LVF are probably the worst of the two, but it is a pretty fine and irrelevant line.



    Hardly.

    If a minor commits a crime the level of parental supervision is usually something society tends to scrutinize.

    If you have ever chatted to many people from Lancashire or Birmingham you might get the impression that towns filled with native born citizens who harbour extreme Islamist beliefs usually aren't the happiest of places. From the evidence shown thus far it would seem Ireland would be best off rid of this clown and his father, passport or not. I don't seem to recall much PC hand wringing here when John Gilligan was forced to leave the country, what's the difference here? This kid and his father seem to be aligning themselves with ideologies that have killed far more people than Gilligan ever did.


    Well if aligning with ideologies is grounds for deportation ron, the sum of some peoples posts provides far more concrete proof for their departure than anything thus far presented against that lad and his father.


  • #119
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,004 ✭✭✭conorhal


    wes wrote: »
    I am not forgetting them at all. You will find that Mursi didn't order the military to fire on protesters in the streets, for all his faults, he didn't go on the same kind of murderous rampage that the Junta did.

    No, he just let some of his unoffical street thugs do the work.
    wes wrote: »
    Secondly, a military coup regardless of protest against the sitting government is hardly part of a democratic process, and then there is the fact that the former government party was banned, no elections have been held yet, and then the current head of the military (who will or has "resigned") running in the elections (after banning there main rival).

    Then there is also the fact that even secular opponents of the Muslim Brotherhood have also been arrested (you know some of the people protesting Mursi's admin):

    Egypt jails Ahmed Maher and other secular activists

    So no I have no forgot the protests, nor have I forgotten that the military have squandered any shred of legitimacy that they may have had, after they not only started murdering protesters in the streets, but once things calmed down even started arresting some of the people who were against Mursi as well.

    I didn't suggest otherwise, things were Sh1t under the militery for Copts and secularists and then they were worse under the MB and now they're just as bad as ever, the lunatic fringe of the MB has just been added to the hit list is all. But lets not pretend things were going to be any better for groups that might garner some western support under MB rule.


    wes wrote: »
    Except that the Brotherhood didn't actually manage to do that. Now the military Junta did exactly that, and for some reason you have no issue with it, and then they happily killed protesters, when they weren't on there side. Hardly defenders of democracy.

    Don't be disingenuous, the didn manage it becuse they got kicked out. Don't kid youself that, had the MB remained in power for another few years that Egypt wouldn't have morphed into a one party theocratic state like Iran, but probably worse.
    wes wrote: »
    I find it amazing that you are so quick to support a murderous military Junta that butchered people in the street, and has arrested the opposition (secular or otherwise) and is now poised to put a military strong man in charge, after the violent over throw of the democratically elected government.

    Again, where did I suggest that I supported the military. The fact of the matter is that I could care less about them, they're a wretched lot, I just consider them less dangerous then the internationalist ambitions of the MB. At lest the militarty junta or more or less contained, a MB ruled Egypt would have brought chaos to the region. I'm just considering the military, in purelty pragmatic terms, the best of a very bad lot.


  • #120
    old_aussie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    wes wrote: »
    Oh its not irrelevant at all, and the fact remains is that the organizations do not have links to one another. Trying to move the goal posts after the fact doesn't change that inconvenient fact. If you have issues with the Muslim Brotherhood, then by all means point those out. It wouldn't even be that difficult to find some, but instead you make false claims about being linked to Al Qaeda, and when called on it, try to change the goal posts.

    .

    Maybe type into google "brotherhood links to alqaeda"

    Have a full read of the article in the link below,

    and Wes you might come up with some answers/truths that you don't seem to like.

    e.g.

    Then Zawahiri told Morsi: “Rule according to the Sharia of Allah [or “Islamic law”], and we will stand next to you. Know that, from the start, there is no so-called democracy, so get rid of your opposition.”

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/raymond-ibrahim/exposed-the-muslim-brotherhoodal-qaeda-connection/


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  • #121
    cruais
    Registered Users Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭cruais


    My name is URL wrote: »
    That's what Irish people once said about guys going off and fighting in WWI

    No, there is a difference.

    most irish people who fought in ww1 really had no choice. They did it to support their families etc. He was just acting the boll!x.


  • #122
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    conorhal wrote: »
    No, he just let some of his unoffical street thugs do the work.

    So, there is actually no evidence that Mursi admin ordered attacks, and I would point out that the attack by the military were in order of magnitude worse, what with the fairly blatant shooting of protesters in the street.
    conorhal wrote: »
    I didn't suggest otherwise, things were Sh1t under the militery for Copts and secularists and then they were worse under the MB and now they're just as bad as ever, the lunatic fringe of the MB has just been added to the hit list is all. But lets not pretend things were going to be any better for groups that might garner some western support under MB rule.

    I think things would be better under a functioning democracy. If the MB are as unpopular, then immediate elections after the coup, would have seen them out, and things would have been better. The entire notion that the only other option is military rule is absurd.
    conorhal wrote: »
    Don't be disingenuous, the didn manage it becuse they got kicked out. Don't kid youself that, had the MB remained in power for another few years that Egypt wouldn't have morphed into a one party theocratic state like Iran, but probably worse.

    So you can predict the future. You should really use you crystal ball to win the lotto or something.
    conorhal wrote: »
    Again, where did I suggest that I supported the military. The fact of the matter is that I could care less about them, they're a wretched lot, I just consider them less dangerous then the internationalist ambitions of the MB. At lest the militarty junta or more or less contained, a MB ruled Egypt would have brought chaos to the region. I'm just considering the military, in purelty pragmatic terms, the best of a very bad lot.

    How would the MB bring chaos to the region exactly?

    The region btw is already in chaos without them. I fail to see how things are stable now. Functioning democracies would be the only thing that would result in stability in the region.


  • #123
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,004 ✭✭✭conorhal


    wes wrote: »
    So, there is actually no evidence that Mursi admin ordered attacks, and I would point out that the attack by the military were in order of magnitude worse, what with the fairly blatant shooting of protesters in the street.

    I think we all know he has paid thugs under his control, he hardly sends out a presidential edict, but it filters down to them what the MB need them to do.
    wes wrote: »
    I think things would be better under a functioning democracy. If the MB are as unpopular, then immediate elections after the coup, would have seen them out, and things would have been better. The entire notion that the only other option is military rule is absurd.

    I agree, a functioning democracy would be better, the Muslim Brotherhood seemed pretty determined to dismantle that.
    wes wrote: »
    So you can predict the future. You should really use you crystal ball to win the lotto or something.

    If you need a crystal ball to understand where Moiri's centalisation off all authority in his office, his re-writing the consititution and immediate crackdown on any voice of opposition was heading, then you need two crystal balls, from specsavers!
    wes wrote: »
    How would the MB bring chaos to the region exactly?
    The region btw is already in chaos without them. I fail to see how things are stable now. Functioning democracies would be the only thing that would result in stability in the region.

    And the Muslim Brotherhood offer neither democracy or stability, not to Egypt or the region. The MB operate and co-operate with their counterparts in Syria, Lebanon etc and that across the region interference is destabilizing.


  • #124
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    conorhal wrote: »
    I think we all know he has paid thugs under his control, he hardly sends out a presidential edict, but it filters down to them what the MB need them to do.

    I agree its certainly likely, but we have no way of knowing, considering that the current trials are all Kangaroo courts.
    conorhal wrote: »
    I agree, a functioning democracy would be better, the Muslim Brotherhood seemed pretty determined to dismantle that.

    They were btw, stopped by protesters and they had to roll back any power grabs they were trying. IMHO, the protests were working and were keeping them in check.

    There was no need for a coup, but rather a stronger democracy. The MB were being frustrated in there ambitions already and were hugely unpopular. They would have probably lost another election, but instead we have the current mess.
    conorhal wrote: »
    If you need a crystal ball to understand where Moiri's centalisation off all authority in his office, his re-writing the consititution and immediate crackdown on any voice of opposition was heading, then you need two crystal balls, from specsavers!

    The constitution needed to be rewritten one way or another. The issue was the way he went about it, but btw there was a vote on the constitution, with only 38% (there abouts) voting and it getting over 60% in favor. Compare this to the farcical 98% the miltiary Junta has gotten (clearly it was fixed):

    Egypt referendum: '98% back new constitution'
    conorhal wrote: »
    And the Muslim Brotherhood offer neither democracy or stability, not to Egypt or the region. The MB operate and co-operate with their counterparts in Syria, Lebanon etc and that across the region interference is destabilizing.

    I would say that decades of military strong men and presidents for life, are the real cause of instability. Stifling civil society, and insuring that only the most extreme survive is the problem. Going back military strong men etc, will insure that things will always be unstable.


  • #125
    BetterThanThou
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭BetterThanThou


    I went to school with this guy's best friend. Now, I'm not close to the guy at all, but from what he's put on Facebook. He was only in Egypt visiting home, as that's his home country, he wasn't involved in any protests.


  • #126
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    BetterThanThou wrote: »
    I went to school with this guy's best friend. Now, I'm not close to the guy at all, but from what he's put on Facebook. He was only in Egypt visiting home, as that's his home country, he wasn't involved in any protests.

    his home country? I would have thought your home country is were you were born and raised, or indeed where you live..your home


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  • #127
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,004 ✭✭✭conorhal


    wes wrote: »
    They were btw, stopped by protesters and they had to roll back any power grabs they were trying. IMHO, the protests were working and were keeping them in check.

    There was no need for a coup, but rather a stronger democracy. The MB were being frustrated in there ambitions already and were hugely unpopular. They would have probably lost another election, but instead we have the current mess.

    I'd say that by the time Morsi was ruling by presidental edict, the MB had replaced all the generals and judges with their own men (they learned well from Mubarak how to choke off democracy) the chances of that following election having candidates running for office that were anything other then a choice of MB candidates was very slim.
    wes wrote: »
    The constitution needed to be rewritten one way or another. The issue was the way he went about it, but btw there was a vote on the constitution, with only 38% (there abouts) voting and it getting over 60% in favor. Compare this to the farcical 98% the miltiary Junta has gotten (clearly it was fixed):

    Egypt referendum: '98% back new constitution'

    I would say that decades of military strong men and presidents for life, are the real cause of instability. Stifling civil society, and insuring that only the most extreme survive is the problem. Going back military strong men etc, will insure that things will always be unstable.

    The vote on the constitution was largely boycoted by pretty much everybody but the MB voters because it was just rammed through in the most authoritarian manner and showed no consideration for any POV other then an islamist one. The issue wasn't just the way Morsi went about it, but the contents that placed copts and secularists under Sharia law.

    I agree that decades of military strong men and presidents for life created a lot of the instability, but like Libya, it also created a political vaccum which meant that there was no real organized political opposition other then the Muslim Brotherhood, who had spent years building an organization on the ground that left them unopposed. That of course meant that they could steamroll over any voices of plurality or liberalism and seize total control, which they clearly intended to do. The way forward in Egypt needs to be the slow construction of a democratic state and democratic institutiuons, independent courts would be a good start. That was never going to occur under the MB. Egypt would simply have been like Russia, swapping the Tsar for a communist autocracy.
    I have more hope that aid, international pressure and the pragmatism rather then fanatisism of the military might slowly evolve into the democracy that Egypt needs, and I doubt this could have happened under Brotherhood rule


  • #128
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,004 ✭✭✭conorhal


    BetterThanThou wrote: »
    I went to school with this guy's best friend. Now, I'm not close to the guy at all, but from what he's put on Facebook. He was only in Egypt visiting home, as that's his home country, he wasn't involved in any protests.

    Except the rally he was speaking at. That story fell apart pretty quickly once footage of that came out. As did the rediculious notion that he was only 'coincidentally' caught up in occupying the Mosque with the rest of the MB that he was arrested with.
    It's that kind of disingenuous pretence of innocence that really saw any sympathy for him and his sisters evaporate.


  • #129
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    conorhal wrote: »
    Except the rally he was speaking at. That story fell apart pretty quickly once footage of that came out. As did the rediculious notion that he was only 'coincidentally' caught up in occupying the Mosque with the rest of the MB that he was arrested with.
    It's that kind of disingenuous pretence of innocence that really saw any sympathy for him and his sisters evaporate.

    Nobody is claiming he's innocent as it can't be proven.

    The issue is people saying we should "let him rot" as a 17 year old Irish citizen in a foreign country.


  • #130
    josip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,152 ✭✭✭✭josip


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    Nobody is claiming he's innocent as it can't be proven.

    The issue is people saying we should "let him rot" as a 17 year old Irish citizen in a foreign country.

    BetterThanThou was anecdotally claiming he was innocent


  • #131
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    Nobody is claiming he's innocent as it can't be proven.

    The issue is people saying we should "let him rot" as a 17 year old Irish citizen in a foreign country.

    he's 18 now

    Has action been taken against his parents?


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  • #132
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    conorhal wrote: »
    I'd say that by the time Morsi was ruling by presidental edict, the MB had replaced all the generals and judges with their own men (they learned well from Mubarak how to choke off democracy) the chances of that following election having candidates running for office that were anything other then a choice of MB candidates was very slim.

    The Generals and Judges came from the Mubarak era, so they were going to replaced sooner or later. Especially when it came to the Generals, seeing as Mubarak was former military himself.

    Also, a lot of stuff Mursi tried had to be rolled back. The democratic institutions were working to frustrate what his was trying to do, and the large protests were also stopping him from getting his way.
    conorhal wrote: »
    The vote on the constitution was largely boycoted by pretty much everybody but the MB voters because it was just rammed through in the most authoritarian manner and showed no consideration for any POV other then an islamist one. The issue wasn't just the way Morsi went about it, but the contents that placed copts and secularists under Sharia law.

    The boycott was a foolish decision by the opposition. Looking at the numbers, it could have been easily defeated. There was an opportunity to show up Mursi at the ballot box and the opposition foolishly chose not to do so.

    Still, Mursi didn't fix the vote like the military have done with the current one.
    conorhal wrote: »
    I agree that decades of military strong men and presidents for life created a lot of the instability, but like Libya, it also created a political vaccum which meant that there was no real organized political opposition other then the Muslim Brotherhood, who had spent years building an organization on the ground that left them unopposed. That of course meant that they could steamroll over any voices of plurality or liberalism and seize total control, which they clearly intended to do.

    In Egypt there were being frustrated from there plan's by the rather large protests, even with the opposition screwing up.
    conorhal wrote: »
    The way forward in Egypt needs to be the slow construction of a democratic state and democratic institutiuons, independent courts would be a good start. That was never going to occur under the MB. Egypt would simply have been like Russia, swapping the Tsar for a communist autocracy.
    I have more hope that aid, international pressure and the pragmatism rather then fanatisism of the military might slowly evolve into the democracy that Egypt needs, and I doubt this could have happened under Brotherhood rule

    Except that this has never happened under the existing decades of rule by the military. They have dismantled any potential civil society, even the MB, and all you will be left with are people who won't even bother with a ballot box. There are groups far worse than the MB, and they will be the ones calling the shots now.

    The MB for there many faults, were being frustrated via the democratic process, and were shown to be largely incompetent and power hungry, and they would have been booted out sooner or later. The fact that they got as far as they did, showed how incompetent there opponents were as well imho.


  • #133
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    conorhal wrote: »
    Except the rally he was speaking at. That story fell apart pretty quickly once footage of that came out. As did the rediculious notion that he was only 'coincidentally' caught up in occupying the Mosque with the rest of the MB that he was arrested with.
    It's that kind of disingenuous pretence of innocence that really saw any sympathy for him and his sisters evaporate.

    I fail to see how speaking at a rally is a "crime"? There is no proof that he was involved in any kind of violence, and he claims that he was peacefully protesting. Seeing as he has not gotten a fair trial, there is no way to establish guilt, and as such he should be considered innocent.

    However, we do know that the military was involved in escalating the violence, as reported the world over, and by there own admission.


  • #134
    Hitchens
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,040 ✭✭✭Hitchens


    wes wrote: »

    The MB for there many faults, were being frustrated via the democratic process, and were shown to be largely incompetent and power hungry, and they would have been booted out sooner or later.

    Speculative


  • #135
    Odyssey 2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,065 ✭✭✭✭Odyssey 2005


    BetterThanThou wrote: »
    I went to school with this guy's best friend. Now, I'm not close to the guy at all, but from what he's put on Facebook. He was only in Egypt visiting home, as that's his home country, he wasn't involved in any protests.

    Well then,if Egypt is "his home country" they can do with him what ever they want. He can't come running to his adopted country when he dirties his bib at HOME.


  • #136
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Boombastic wrote: »
    his home country? I would have thought your home country is were you were born and raised, or indeed where you live..your home

    Do you want to hand that out in a leaflet to Irish Americans who arrive here as tourists, just so they're clear on the rules...


  • #137
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Nodin wrote: »
    Do you want to hand that out in a leaflet to Irish Americans who arrive here as tourists, just so they're clear on the rules...

    they were as much tourists as those lads in Columbia were bird watchers


  • #138
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Boombastic wrote: »
    they were as much tourists as those lads in Columbia were bird watchers

    ....not the point I was making, actually.


  • #139
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Bambi wrote: »
    Anyone remember all this hand wringing going on when that walter mitty sap was shot while trying to organise a coup in bolivia?
    its a shame he didn't succeed

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #140
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Hitchens wrote: »
    Speculative

    True enough, the same could be said for those saying otherwise.


  • #141
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    Its his country now is it? Then why was he protesting in some other country? Would have been interesting to ask him a year ago which country was his.

    So you have to be from a particular country in order to care about the injustices its people are suffering?

    If the allies had taken that view prior to WWII, a right fine mess we'd find ourselves in today :rolleyes:


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  • #142
    my friend
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,129 ✭✭✭my friend


    Can the Egyptian authorities kindly step up the executions so we no longer have to listen to Ibrahims sisters whining about Gilmore. They have some cheek

    Their brother knew what he was up to, their pleading is very annoying

    They shouldn't mistake our politeness for naïveté


  • #143
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    my friend wrote: »
    Can the Egyptian authorities kindly step up the executions so we no longer have to listen to Ibrahims sisters whining about Gilmore. They have some cheek

    Their brother knew what he was up to, their pleading is very annoying

    They shouldn't mistake our politeness for naïveté

    Or they could just like not execute him? Then they might be kind enough to shut up so as to not annoy you.

    I absolutely guarantee that you'd be squealing to Gilmore to if one of your close family members was up for execution. If I'm wrong, you probably either don't love your family members or else are devoid of empathy.


  • #144
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    I absolutely guarantee that you'd be squealing to Gilmore to if one of your close family members was up for execution.

    Especially considering the type of decisions that the Egyptian court has taken recently. Sentencing 720 people to death in a single (and very rushed) court case could never be considered justice.


  • #145
    josip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,152 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Knasher wrote: »
    Especially considering the type of decisions that the Egyptian court has taken recently. Sentencing 720 people to death in a single (and very rushed) court case could never be considered justice.

    I think it's called summary justice.


  • #146
    HavelTheRock
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭HavelTheRock


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    So you have to be from a particular country in order to care about the injustices its people are suffering?

    If the allies had taken that view prior to WWII, a right fine mess we'd find ourselves in today :rolleyes:

    You must not know too much about WWII because the Allies didn't go to war until it became their problem, they ignored a lot of Hitler's moves and only went into action when they realized Hitler's rise to power threatened their own countries.

    America refused to even join the war until Japan bombed Pearl Harbour.


  • #147
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    His trial has been postponed again until January 6th.
    The trial of Irish teenager Ibrahim Halawa in Cairo has been postponed until 6 January.

    The 18-year-old was due in court today to face charges linked to a military crackdown on protests in the city in August 2013.

    He was one of 494 people arrested after demonstrations at Cairo's Al-Fath mosque following the ousting of former Egyptian president Mohammed Mursi last year.

    Mr Halawa has been in prison for 450 days.

    Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, his sister Somaia said she feared Mr Halawa could face a death sentence.

    She said her mother was in Cairo today, but she was not allowed inside the courtroom.

    Somaia Halawa said: "It's so hard to describe what we are going through and what we are feeling.

    "The charges are one standard and are given to everyone. So those who have been sentenced to death are very close to Ibrahim's charges."

    Mr Halawa appeared in court in Cairo in August, however proceedings were postponed after the judge in the trial walked out, saying he refused to continue.

    He cited "unease" at the nature of the mass proceedings.

    Amnesty International has said it does not believe that Mr Halawa or the other defendants can receive a fair trial in Egypt "under the current circumstances".

    Colm O'Gorman, Executive Director of Amnesty International Ireland, said that it "will continue the campaign for his freedom until he is safe and well at home in Ireland".

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1201/663789-halawa-ibrahim/

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/cairo-trial-of-irish-teen-ibrahim-halawa-postponed-until-january-1.2021478


  • #148
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    Get the IRA to blow up the Docklands in Egypt. That will have him free in no time.


  • #149
    Sonderkommando
    Registered Users Posts: 183 ✭✭Sonderkommando


    Absolutely no sympathy for him at all. I don't wish for him to be executed but truly hope he never sets a foot in this country again.


  • #150
    Calibos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,810 ✭✭✭Calibos


    Are you mixing this story up with some Lad going off to fight for ISIS?? Why shouldn't he set foot in the country again. Thats like saying I shouldn't be allowed back in the country again if I was arrested by Thai police while on holiday in Thailand after I got mixed up in human rights protests or something.


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  • #151
    denhaagenite
    Registered Users Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭denhaagenite


    Calibos wrote: »
    Are you mixing this story up with some Lad going off to fight for ISIS?? Why shouldn't he set foot in the country again. Thats like saying I shouldn't be allowed back in the country again if I was arrested by Thai police while on holiday in Thailand after I got mixed up in human rights protests or something.

    He and his sisters have said that they were holidaying, shopping, but there were warnings about tourists staying away from areas of unrest. They were not innocently caught up in anything. They were posting on Facebook for weeks beforehand about it. They were actively involved and claiming now that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't agree with him being imprisoned this long without trial or being executed but they need to take some responsibility for their actions. They considered themselves Egyptian until they realised that the Irish government are far more likely to get them out of the mess that they wholeheartedly walked into.


This discussion has been closed.
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