Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

gally74 · 15-01-2012 6:42pm

Is Cronin closer after today, Trimble has to get a wing,

irishbucsfan · 15-01-2012 6:42pm

Form is paramount, so you pick Murray!? Baffling!

Brendan97 · 15-01-2012 6:48pm

GerM wrote: »

At this point in time, my 22 would be as follows:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. SOB
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Trimble
12. D'Arcy
13. Cave
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Cronin 17. Court 18. Tuohy 19. Henry 20. Reddan 21. ROG 22. McFadden

I think the pack picks itself generally. The only contentious spot is who partners POC. Ryan showed the intensity, mobility and control yesterday that is required and deserves a chance. Tuohy is in the mix and provides a good injection of pace and aggression from the bench. Toner is very close to that bench spot too for me as he provides something different. He guarantees line out ball and has fantastic hands. DOC should be nowhere near the 22.

What I can't get over is that just because ryan plays with poc with munster people automatically assume that he would be a better option even though other locks have played better, tuohy has played way better imo

Benny Cake · 15-01-2012 6:49pm

There is very little between Murray & Reddan regarding the Irish 9 position. This weekends rugby has done little to separate them. Both were poor and were outshone by their respective replacements. If I was picking a team in the morning I would start Murray. My reasoning is that he is playing behind a mediocre back row and is servicing a struggling back line. Put him in the Leinster side (which, lets face it, is basically the same as the Irish side) and he will have far cleaner ball and more options either side of him.

Benny Cake · 15-01-2012 6:51pm

Brendan97 wrote: »

What I can't get over is that just because ryan plays with poc with munster people automatically assume that he would be a better option even though other locks have played better, tuohy has played way better imo

Who made that assumption? Ryan was unreal yesterday & will make the Irish side on merit...

GerM · 15-01-2012 6:55pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Form is paramount, so you pick Murray!? Baffling!

Reddan was awful today. Lacked control and kicked terribly. Murray has been mediocre overall with some decent games. Reddan has had some great games and one or two stinkers. It's a tight call, neither have stamped their authority on the jersey.

GerM · 15-01-2012 6:57pm

Brendan97 wrote: »

What I can't get over is that just because ryan plays with poc with munster people automatically assume that he would be a better option even though other locks have played better, tuohy has played way better imo

We're not all Munster people, just call it as we see it and Ryan was superb yesterday. It's an extremely tight call but he has experience playing alongside POC and within the Irish set up so gets the nod. Tuohy deserves recognition and should get caps in the 6N.

Brendan97 · 15-01-2012 6:58pm

Benny Cake wrote: »

Who made that assumption? Ryan was unreal yesterday & will make the Irish side on merit...

But if you watch Munster & Ulster play it isn't hard to see who has been more consistent and played better (providing you're unbiased)

Tox56 · 15-01-2012 6:59pm

Brendan97 wrote: »

But if you watch Munster & Ulster play it isn't hard to see who has been more consistent and played better (providing you're unbiased)

How their teams are playing is irrelivant to how they are playing.

shuffol · 15-01-2012 7:02pm

Just looking at the stats from the game today and Mcfadden is down for making 5 tackles and missing 3 which sounds about right from what I saw, D'arcy on the other hand made 13 and missed none.

Cant see how Mcfadden can be considered for the 12 jersey, D'arcy is certainly beyond the peak of his powers and ought to have been under more pressure to keep his jersey at this stage, it'd be great if some young gun was playing out of his skin and taking the HC by storm but no such player exists at the moment, therefore as far as Irelands concerned D'arcys still the man for the job. I wouldnt rule out Paddy Wallace making an appearance by the end of the 6N if Cave manages to break into the side, Going by Fridays game he's still playing very well. Big test for him next week though.

Benny Cake · 15-01-2012 7:06pm

Tox56 wrote: »

How their teams are playing is irrelivant to how they are playing.

Well said....

Cpt_Blackbeard · 15-01-2012 7:06pm

Clegg wrote: »

Nothing has been confirmed about a long term injury for Fitz. It was in the papers yesterday that he tweaked a muscle so was out for the Glasgow match. If its confirmed that Fitz has a bad injury then we can worry. To worry right now when we know nothing is pointless.

If Fitz is out for the 6 Nations then that will be a blow. However,Trimbles form has been every bit as good as Lukes this season. If we were picking the starting XV for the 6 Nations right now then it I'd have absolutely no worries about Trimble starting.

I wouldn't have Earls anywhere near the 22. He's shown that he's not a quality 13 and thats where all his games have been since he returned from injury. He's low in confidence and we've seen that it takes 3/4 matches to play himself beck into form on the wing. Earls is a liability right now.

Earls has played 2 full games in the last ~3months if memory serves. He was very good last week and apparently very poor this week. Its waaay too early to be discounting him.

People conveniently forget that he went into last years 6N playing 13. He was moved to the wing in the 6N and ended up as our best back in the tournament. He was then left out on the wing for the rest of the season.

irishbucsfan · 15-01-2012 7:08pm

GerM wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Form is paramount, so you pick Murray!? Baffling!

Reddan was awful today. Lacked control and kicked terribly. Murray has been mediocre overall with some decent games. Reddan has had some great games and one or two stinkers. It's a tight call, neither have stamped their authority on the jersey.

He wasn't good at the base today. He was kicking in situations where he wouldn't normally because of Sextons knock, so I wouldkt worry about that.

I can't think of another bad game from him though, and if one bad game costs you your place then ROG should be starting as well.

Murray has been consistently mediocre. If TOL makes you look slow you're doing something wrong. He should not be playing for Ireland yet.

Brendan97 · 15-01-2012 7:14pm

Tox56 wrote: »

How their teams are playing is irrelivant to how they are playing.

Benny Cake wrote: »

Well said....

Brendan97 wrote: »

But if you watch Munster & Ulster play it isn't hard to see who has been more consistent and played better (providing you're unbiased)

Who, in reference to tuohy and ryan not ulster and munster

GerM · 15-01-2012 7:16pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He wasn't good at the base today. He was kicking in situations where he wouldn't normally because of Sextons knock, so I wouldkt worry about that.

I can't think of another bad game from him though, and if one bad game costs you your place then ROG should be starting as well.

Murray has been consistently mediocre. If TOL makes you look slow you're doing something wrong. He should not be playing for Ireland yet.

As I said, it's a tight call. I'd have no issue with Reddan starting and, on the basis of their provincial partnership, it probably makes sense. But today's performance, the week of the squad announcement, was the worst of any performance from either Murray or Reddan. Murray has generally been mediocre but has had a couple of good games. At home to Llanelli for example where he was MOTM. Going on this weekend's form, Reddan was the worse player.

.ak · 15-01-2012 7:16pm

GerM wrote: »

At this point in time, my 22 would be as follows:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. SOB
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Trimble
12. D'Arcy
13. Cave
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Cronin 17. Court 18. Tuohy 19. Henry 20. Reddan 21. ROG 22. McFadden

I like that team, except I'd defo have Reddan on instead of Murray. Reddan wasn't great today, far from it, but I wouldn't start a team with Murray at the moment. I'd also put Fitz in ahead of Trimble just for his recent strike rate - but it would depend on who we're playing. They both pretty good defensive units but Trimble has the edge in getting the ball forward in tight situations. So, for Wales I'd play Fitz, and for France I'd play Trimble etc.

.ak · 15-01-2012 7:18pm

GerM wrote: »

As I said, it's a tight call. I'd have no issue with Reddan starting and, on the basis of their provincial partnership, it probably makes sense. But today's performance, the week of the squad announcement, was the worst of any performance from either Murray or Reddan. Murray has generally been mediocre but has had a couple of good games. At home to Llanelli for example where he was MOTM. Going on this weekend's form, Reddan was the worse player.

Yeah but he really didn't deserve that MoTM tbh. There were far better Munster players that day, and it seemed to be one of those Sky sports MoTM when they give it to the person who throws himself into the most rucks. Not very clever from a SH, he went off battered and because of it killed a lot of ball.

Brendan97 · 15-01-2012 7:19pm

1.Healy
2.Best
3.Ross
4.Tuohy
5.POC
6.Ferris
7.SOB
8.Heaslip
9.Reddan
10.Sexton
11.Trimble
12.McFadden
13.Cave
14.Bowe
15.Kearney

Clegg · 15-01-2012 7:25pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Earls has played 2 full games in the last ~3months if memory serves. He was very good last week and apparently very poor this week. Its waaay too early to be discounting him.

People conveniently forget that he went into last years 6N playing 13. He was moved to the wing in the 6N and ended up as our best back in the tournament. He was then left out on the wing for the rest of the season.

Earls went ok against Treviso last week but he was nothing special. Right now he's the 4th best Irish wing and the 3rd best centre. The Castres match showed the problems that he has in his game right now.

Why should Earls form from last season matter? Right now he's not in form and there is only 1 more competitive fixture before the 6 Nations. If he does well against Northampton then he should be considered but theres players in the Irish squad that have been in good form all season that deserve their place in front of him.

irishbucsfan · 15-01-2012 7:26pm

If Kidney is dumb enough to dismiss Reddan because of today (and he could be) and he picks Murray in the very poor form that he's in, I'll be very disappointed.

Brendan97 · 15-01-2012 7:38pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If Kidney is dumb enough to dismiss Reddan because of today (and he could be) and he picks Murray in the very poor form that he's in, I'll be very disappointed.

Of course he will - but saying that knowing kidney reddan was never in the equation at all - murray is a part of a group of players that kidney loves which includes -Earls, TOL & most older players

you could make a team of players that kidney is biased against that would give kidney's team a run for its money

GerM · 15-01-2012 7:42pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If Kidney is dumb enough to dismiss Reddan because of today (and he could be) and he picks Murray in the very poor form that he's in, I'll be very disappointed.

I reckon even if Reddan repeated his Bath performance today, Murray will be in the 9 jersey. Form is not the deciding factor for him for Ireland; never has been.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 15-01-2012 7:44pm

Clegg wrote: »

Earls went ok against Treviso last week but he was nothing special. Right now he's the 4th best Irish wing and the 3rd best centre. The Castres match showed the problems that he has in his game right now.

Why should Earls form from last season matter? Right now he's not in form and there is only 1 more competitive fixture before the 6 Nations. If he does well against Northampton then he should be considered but theres players in the Irish squad that have been in good form all season that deserve their place in front of him.

His form from last season matters as, it unequivocally shows that it doesn't take him "3/4 matches to play himself back into form on the wing". In what I was able to see of him yesterday, he made a bum pass and was limping around the field. Benefit of the doubt - for a player returning from injury into a different position and surrounded by a terribly coached backline - obviously doesn't apply...

irishbucsfan · 15-01-2012 7:46pm

Brendan97 wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If Kidney is dumb enough to dismiss Reddan because of today (and he could be) and he picks Murray in the very poor form that he's in, I'll be very disappointed.

Of course he will - but saying that knowing kidney reddan was never in the equation at all - murray is a part of a group of players that kidney loves which includes -Earls, TOL & most older players

you could make a team of players that kidney is biased against that would give kidney's team a run for its money

Kidney has started Reddan in the past though, so I'd have some faith in him picking the better player.

mfceiling · 15-01-2012 7:46pm

GerM wrote: »

We're not all Munster people, just call it as we see it and Ryan was superb yesterday. It's an extremely tight call but he has experience playing alongside POC and within the Irish set up so gets the nod. Tuohy deserves recognition and should get caps in the 6N.

Much as i'd love to see the 2 lads in the mix for starting or bench in the 6n.....niggly feeling that kidney will still find a place for DOC....hope i'm proved wrong and that players will make the squad on merit and not on history...

Brendan97 · 15-01-2012 7:50pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Kidney has started Reddan in the past though, so I'd have some faith in him picking the better player.

I supppose........but then again as murray played more with munster the more he played with ireland up until the point where kidney saw murray as his first-choice SH mid-way through the WC

Benny Cake · 15-01-2012 7:50pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Kidney has started Reddan in the past though, so I'd have some faith in him picking the better player.

So we're sure Reddan is the better player? Did you honesty feel Reddan played better today than Murray played yesterday? If we were to honestly pick the best 9 from this weekend then Boss would have to be in the mix! Hold fire until after next weekend...

jacothelad · 15-01-2012 7:55pm

Benny Cake wrote: »

So we're sure Reddan is the better player? Did you honesty feel Reddan played better today than Murray played yesterday? If we were to honestly pick the best 9 from this weekend then Boss would have to be in the mix! Hold fire until after next weekend...

They were both mostly grim. Tweedledum and Tweedledee to be honest. Reddan at his best is a decnt enough players. I don't think we've seen the best of Murray - if we have the rest must be feckin' awful.

irishbucsfan · 15-01-2012 7:59pm

Benny Cake wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Kidney has started Reddan in the past though, so I'd have some faith in him picking the better player.

So we're sure Reddan is the better player? Did you honesty feel Reddan played better today than Murray played yesterday? If we were to honestly pick the best 9 from this weekend then Boss would have to be in the mix! Hold fire until after next weekend...

No, but Reddan was way worse than usual whereas Murray was slightly better than usual. I think Murray was better than Reddan this week, but I think Murray was much worse last week.

Also, Reddan was against much better opposition.

thomond2006 · 15-01-2012 8:01pm

Lads the answer to the number nine problem is obvious! What about an old fan favourite...

Regards,
D. Kidney

Benny Cake · 15-01-2012 8:02pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Also, Reddan was against much better opposition.

But Reddan plays on a much better team. Anyhooo, I reckon its all to play for and they'll both see decent time playing time during the 6 nations.

Amazotheamazing · 15-01-2012 8:02pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, but Reddan was way worse than usual whereas Murray was slightly better than usual. I think Murray was better than Reddan this week, but I think Murray was much worse last week.

Also, Reddan was against much better opposition.

Murray got MOTM in his last HEC game against Scarlets. Not sure why people think he's in poor form, he's going well imo.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 15-01-2012 8:04pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Murray got MOTM in his last HEC game against Scarlets. Not sure why people think he's in poor form, he's going well imo.

He'll get his try eventually too.

irishbucsfan · 15-01-2012 8:05pm

Benny Cake wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Also, Reddan was against much better opposition.

But Reddan plays on a much better team. Anyhooo, I reckon its all to play for and they'll both see decent time playing time during the 6 nations.

Better team thanks to their brilliant 9

Benny Cake · 15-01-2012 8:09pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Better team thanks to their brilliant 9

Well played Sir!

Clegg · 15-01-2012 8:09pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

His form from last season matters as, it unequivocally shows that it doesn't take him "3/4 matches to play himself back into form on the wing". In what I was able to see of him yesterday, he made a bum pass and was limping around the field. Benefit of the doubt - for a player returning from injury into a different position and surrounded by a terribly coached backline - obviously doesn't apply...

It took him 3 games to actually get into form in the World Cup. He did nothing of note until the Russia game. He was also extremely poor on the wing and in centre for Ireland during the warm-up games. Our form back Andrew Trimble was ignored and sat on his arse for most of the WC. He played decent enough in our next few matches but overall he only had a passable World Cup by his standards.

I don't think Earls is a bad player. He's a good one who is in poor form. He's like Fitzgerald was last season, coming back from injury and playing out of position. Fitz played for Ireland at full-back because he was seen as the best option available. But Earls is in a different position entirely. Right now there are a number of players in cenrtre and on the wing who are playing much better than him. If the 6 Nations squad was picked on current form then Earls would be lucky to make the 22. If he were in form then he'd probably start for Ireland but we don't have that luxury.

Sindri · 15-01-2012 11:41pm

Is it just me or does anyone else think Murray is fairly average.

chancer12 · 15-01-2012 11:44pm

Sindri, most non-Munster supporters would agree with you! IMO he's as over-rated as Reddan is under-rated

danthefan · 15-01-2012 11:47pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Murray got MOTM in his last HEC game against Scarlets. Not sure why people think he's in poor form, he's going well imo.

What did you think of Chris Henry this weekend?

lologram · 15-01-2012 11:49pm

Sindri wrote: »

Is it just me or does anyone else think Murray is fairly average.

chancer12 wrote: »

Sindri, most non-Munster supporters would agree with you! IMO he's as over-rated as Reddan is under-rated

Murray is over-rated indeed, but I think Reddan is rated about fairly. My impression is that people think of him as close to what he is; a pretty good player most of the time but someone who is prone to some terrible decisions and terrible days also.

danthefan · 15-01-2012 11:52pm

It was not a vintage week for Irish SHs. Reddan seemed caught up in the general Leinster malaise and as for Murray, when TOL comes on and speeds things up it tells you everything.

clsmooth · 16-01-2012 12:17am

Sindri wrote: »

Is it just me or does anyone else think Murray is fairly average.

I agree. Not really impressed by him. Not fast enough to get the ball away. I'd prefer Redden although he blows hot and cold. Murray should get on the substitute bench though. I think he can improve as he's young but think he's fairly average at all parts of his game. Redden (when in form) controls the tempo much better IMO

totallegend · 16-01-2012 12:40am

Sindri wrote: »

Is it just me or does anyone else think Murray is fairly average.

I think Murray is the sort of scrum-half who suits the sort of game that Munster are playing at the moment, and is also the sort of scrum-half who Kidney favours, i.e. athletic, strong carrier into contact etc etc. Munster aren't interested in playing a wide, expansive game (or lack the players to do so atm), and they're doing well by keeping it tight through the forwards, so this suits Murray.

However, when it comes to making the step up to internationals, we have to take it up a notch, look to move the ball more quickly and get more width on it and at this stage, Murray isn't really the man for that, but he is very young and has lots of time to develop.

Reddan is the best all-round SH we have, but he is maddeningly inconsistent. No-one can put the sort of pace on the game that he can, but too often you're left with your mouth open asking, "what the f**k was he thinking?"

On recent form, we'd be picking Marshall but it ain't going to happen. I think the best option may actually be Boss, but you have to assume Murray will get the nod for Ireland.

Benny Cake · 16-01-2012 12:53am

totallegend wrote: »

]
On recent form, we'd be picking Marshall but it ain't going to happen. I think the best option may actually be Boss, but you have to assume Murray will get the nod for Ireland.

Unless Marshall is starting & getting first team Heineken Cup experience for Ulster, he won't be included in the Irish squad, let alone starting.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 16-01-2012 1:03am

totallegend wrote: »

I think Murray is the sort of scrum-half who suits the sort of game that Munster are playing at the moment, and is also the sort of scrum-half who Kidney favours, i.e. athletic, strong carrier into contact etc etc. Munster aren't interested in playing a wide, expansive game (or lack the players to do so atm), and they're doing well by keeping it tight through the forwards, so this suits Murray.

However, when it comes to making the step up to internationals, we have to take it up a notch, look to move the ball more quickly and get more width on it and at this stage, Murray isn't really the man for that, but he is very young and has lots of time to develop.

Reddan is the best all-round SH we have, but he is maddeningly inconsistent. No-one can put the sort of pace on the game that he can, but too often you're left with your mouth open asking, "what the f**k was he thinking?"

On recent form, we'd be picking Marshall but it ain't going to happen. I think the best option may actually be Boss, but you have to assume Murray will get the nod for Ireland.

If you want to play a SH to put pace on the game, you play Stringer.

totallegend · 16-01-2012 1:05am

Benny Cake wrote: »

Unless Marshall is starting & getting first team Heineken Cup experience for Ulster, he won't be included in the Irish squad, let alone starting.

Absolutely.

but in fairness to him;
a) he's played in all their HC games and started two
b) if any of the other Irish scrum-halves were competing with Pienaar, they'd be on the bench too.

I'd like to see Marshall at least play for the Wolfhounds but the senior squad won't happen for him.

Sindri · 16-01-2012 1:07am

Benny Cake wrote: »

Unless Marshall is starting & getting first team Heineken Cup experience for Ulster, he won't be included in the Irish squad, let alone starting.

Shame. Marshall looks like a bit of a cute hoor.

Amazotheamazing · 16-01-2012 1:55am

danthefan wrote: »

What did you think of Chris Henry this weekend?

Didn't watch the game, will he be challenging SOB for 7?

[Jackass] · 16-01-2012 3:28am

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

If you want to play a SH to put pace on the game, you play Stringer.

Stringer had an absolute nightmare cameo for Saracencs when he came on. Was blocked down with a simple box kick, almost cost them the game, and looked completely out of his depth. Nothing left to offer at Heineken Cup level. Was brought in as emergency cover as they only had an academy guy left, now he's benching behind the academy guy...

profitius · 16-01-2012 9:43am

Murray gave Munster a big boost at the end of last season when he burst on the scene. He can pass, is consistent, is a running threat and has a good rugby brain. Not overrated at all. Its not like what happened a few years ago when TOL burst on the scene. Murray has talent.

His performances this season have not been as good mainly because of the time he takes to get the ball from a ruck. The Munster back play has been terrible this season and the coaches don't have much of a clue whats going on. Its not a great enviornment for young players to be involved in. Mafi has been bad, Barnes has also lost confidence and was playing better in the summer and also looks to have lost a bit of confidence since then.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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