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United Ireland Poll

12357…11

Comments

  • #202
    stakey
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭stakey


    63% of the Northern Irish economy is public sector as oppossed to 36% in the republic. The British state pumps 7.5 billion euro into the region to sustain it's growth.

    I think all will agree that this would be a very hefty bill for the republic to pick up! Unless of course we pull the 7.5 billion euro out of the Norths economy. I doubt you'd see any want for a United Ireland in NI then...


  • #203
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    TerrorFirmer wrote: »
    Cut it off and let it float off to sea. Or drag it across to England and dock it on their west coast.

    Or do to it what they did in Doomsday.

    yes but thats not really a sensible or mature suggestion or even realistic . It wouldnt float and would be impossible to cut off .


  • #204
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I don't know. A load of dynamite sticks along the border might break it off. Then again, who's to say the 26 counties wouldn't float downwards and end up in Africa... :eek:


  • #205
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kreuzberger wrote: »
    really ? why has this baggage not manifested itself in the likes of Donegal , Cavan , Monaghan and even Dublin ( the former headquarters of the Orange order )? All areas with sizable protestant and formerly unionist populations .

    I notice the word former appears twice, there's your answer, they left!
    You need to unite the people before you unite the country.


  • #206
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dudess wrote: »
    I don't know. A load of dynamite sticks along the border might break it off. Then again, who's to say the 26 counties wouldn't float downwards and end up in Africa... :eek:

    or Australia!:D


  • #207
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    stakey wrote: »
    63% of the Northern Irish economy is public sector as oppossed to 36% in the republic. The British state pumps 7.5 billion euro into the region to sustain it's growth.

    I think all will agree that this would be a very hefty bill for the republic to pick up! Unless of course we pull the 7.5 billion euro out of the Norths economy. I doubt you'd see any want for a United Ireland in NI then...


    the British state divided the region from its natural economic hinterland , therefore deliberately suppressed the regions growth . Not only that it had a disastrous effect on local economies in the 26 counties close to the border . A fully integrated economy on a national scale would obviously be a differnt kettle of fish from 2 seperate econmies with different rates of corporation tax and all the rest .

    7.5 billion euro a year is also peanuts compared to what the southern state has handed the likes of Tony OReily and shell , tax and royalty free . Taking a dignified stance on our oil and gas resources , and heaven forbid demanding billionaires pay taxes and royalties for our resources would easily fund any re-unification project . Developing the resources ourselves would mean major employment . Especially with oil at $100 dollars a barrel and rising . an estimated 4 billion barrels of oil alone ( and 25 trillion cubic square feet of natural gas ) is to be harvested off Hook head and we wont see a penny . Nor from the oil discoveries off the Dunquin prospect in the porcupine basin . But of course a country that would give away its national territory is obviously incapable of asserting its dignity and sovereignty in any other matter of national importance . The political culture is much too sheepish and servile .

    And believe it or not there are more things to life than an on paper economy , and taking a stand for your country on one issue can encourage you take the correct stand on another in the national interest .


  • #208
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    Lol, I voice my opinion and I get pm's calling me a West Brit and telling me I'm not Irish and shouldn't classify myself as such.

    These assclowns do a lot for the "yes" side, f*cking IRA loving scumbags stuck in the past.

    Oh and huge lol at the people saying "Well the majority in NI who are protestant voted to keep it a part of Britain and that's unfair durrrrr". Idiots.


  • #209
    GhettoSoldier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭GhettoSoldier


    How does passiveness on the northern Irish situation generalise to a passiveness for all moral causes exactly? There are plenty of things I fight for and would die for, real important issues like defeating world hunger and oppression that are rampant and which doubtless the likes of you happily ignore because you think you're a great crusader for getting all worked up over which identikit government the six counties are under.

    What about your oppressed Irish brothers in the north, you don't seem to care about that do you? what oppression exactly are you fighting against?


  • #210
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I notice the word former appears twice, there's your answer, they left!
    You need to unite the people before you unite the country.


    rubbish . They were formerly unionists until Britain left , then with no more union werent unionists any more . There are plenty of protestants living in those areas and there is none of the baggage associated with British rule .

    Uniting people when a major power which operates a divide and rule policy is actively involved in your affairs is a ridiculous notion . The country should not have been divided on the first place . The logical step to getting rid of division is to get rid of the foreign governemnt fomenting and propping up division in the fiorst place .


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  • #211
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    rb_ie wrote: »
    Lol, I voice my opinion and I get pm's calling me a West Brit and telling me I'm not Irish and shouldn't classify myself as such.
    Any abusive PM's, please report them.
    Oh and huge lol at the people saying "Well the majority in NI who are protestant voted to keep it a part of Britain and that's unfair durrrrr". Idiots.
    Well it causes concern because some view it as an example of "tyranny of the majority": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority
    Not without cause imo.


  • #212
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    rb_ie wrote: »
    Lol, I voice my opinion and I get pm's calling me a West Brit and telling me I'm not Irish and shouldn't classify myself as such.

    These assclowns do a lot for the "yes" side, f*cking IRA loving scumbags stuck in the past.

    Oh and huge lol at the people saying "Well the majority in NI who are protestant voted to keep it a part of Britain".

    your posts seemed positively designed to cause offence and indeed it was yourself who first argued that Irish citizens from the occupied territory werent Irish , that Irish territory was British etc , so you cant really complain when your own outward lack of patriotism and support for British rule in your country calls your own Irishness into question . Whilst id completely disagree with anyone sending you abusive pms i also find your abusive and obscene language wholly unnecessary and indeed offensive . Its dragging down the tone of the debate , as do your accusations of support for terrorism with anyone who disagrees with you .


  • #213
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kreuzberger wrote: »
    Uniting people when a major power which operates a divide and rule policy is actively involved in your affairs is a ridiculous notion . .
    And exactly what "divide & rule" policies are you referring to, when you consider that both the DUP & SF are running the show!


  • #214
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    Dudess wrote: »
    I don't know. A load of dynamite sticks along the border might break it off. Then again, who's to say the 26 counties wouldn't float downwards and end up in Africa... :eek:

    geologists


  • #215
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Oh yeah...

    Lighten up will you?


  • #216
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    sorry , meant to stick a few smilies in there


    :p:p:p

    I have a hunch though that your idea of sending tonnes of TNT up to the border might go down well with a few people better than you think , but possibly not for the reason you had intended


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  • #217
    Eoin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,257 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Deleted User wrote: »
    70% of jobs in the north are public service!Definitely a natural compliment to free state agriculture:pac:

    F-ck me - is it that high? The public sector up there also earn fully 20% more than the private sector. Maybe there's room for more paper shufflers in the HSE...
    kreuzberger wrote:
    And believe it or not there are more things to life than an on paper economy.

    Did you not mind paying 65% income tax back in the day?


  • #218
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dudess wrote: »
    I don't know. A load of dynamite sticks along the border might break it off. Then again, who's to say the 26 counties wouldn't float downwards and end up in Africa... :eek:
    According to an American (not sure of his profession - if any) all countries that are on continental shelfs are at risk of sliding into the neighbouring ocean.

    Be careful with that dynamite or semtex, you'll sink us all. ;)


  • #219
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    somehow i couldnt imagine the germans sounding so afraid of unification despite facing much bigger economic and hurdles and tring to integrate an economy that was 100% public sector. But then again that was a civilised and cultured country .


  • #220
    j1smithy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭j1smithy


    Yeah unite the people before the country... like this!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQJrovKgrTw

    Heart says yes, head says no.

    In all fairness though unification won't happen for a generation at least and would probably take about 10 years to complete, during which time lay offs in the public sector and the dismantling of the NHS would certainly cause some people of a nationalist sentiment in the north to reconsider. Its one thing to say something, but when it affects your job and your money its another


  • #221
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Oooh, that's a slippery slope to Godwin-town...

    Yeah - Heart says yes, head says no...

    Aside from a hazy notion that gosh, wouldn't it be lovely to have Ireland for the Irish - however that is defined - has there been any rational argument for a united Ireland? Or are we unpatriotic for asking so?
    "One of the great attractions of patriotism — it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat. Bully and cheat, what’s more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous.”

    Would it make life better?


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  • #222
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    Deleted User wrote: »
    According to an American (not sure of his profession - if any)

    ah well then..there you go
    all countries that are on continental shelfs are at risk of sliding into the neighbouring ocean.

    and most of them have wmds and want to destroy the american way of life too


  • #223
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kreuzberger wrote: »
    somehow i couldnt imagine the germans sounding so afraid of unification despite facing much bigger economic and hurdles and tring to integrate an economy that was 100% public sector. But then again that was a civilised and cultured country .

    Big differences,
    • The country was divided between victors after a war!
    • Both countries wanted unification
    • The populations of both countries wanted unification
    • West Germany was very wealthy - huge savings available.
    • the east had about 20% of the population
    Even so it caused Germany many lean years as the costs were so huge, creating new jobs replacing an entire infrastructure etc


  • #224
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Right now just over 50% want a united Ireland and 37% say no.

    Not exactly a united response!
    Looks like the yes vote is slipping a bit
    yes 47% no 39%


  • #225
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    Dudess wrote: »
    Any abusive PM's, please report them.

    Ah sure being called a West Brit is nothing. I don't particularly care how "Irish" people think I am. I just hope the same people who are touting "OIreland for the OIrish" will go and vote no in the Lisbon Treaty. Them voting yes would be, well, quite hilarious.

    I'm curious to know what he'd have pm'd me if he'd known I'm a COI Protestant (not practising however) though, that would have been funny. More ignorant drivel I'd imagine.
    Dudess wrote:
    Well it causes concern because some view it as an example of "tyranny of the majority": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority
    Not without cause imo.

    Yeah but sure that's life and democracy, they're welcome to move out of the North and into the Republic if they're so opposed to it and are living a horrible life up there.

    Rather than trying to "Unite" Ireland, why not move all those considering themselves "Irish" out of the North and into the republic? Sure, there may be a lot of them, but there seems to be soo many people who, at least on the internet, are soo passionate about the cause, I'm sure they'd be willing to let a few sleep in their living rooms etc until they find accomodation?


  • #226
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    Oooh, that's a slippery slope to Godwin-town...

    Yeah - Heart says yes, head says no...

    Aside from a hazy notion that gosh, wouldn't it be lovely to have Ireland for the Irish - however that is defined - has there been any rational argument for a united Ireland? Or are we unpatriotic for asking so?



    Would it make life better?

    ensuring an end to conflict on the island would certainly make life better for us all . One economy instead of two would make life better for us all .
    Having our national rights to sovereignty respected , having our democratic rights as citizens properly enshrined and defended as oposed to being subject to the realities of accomodating foreign rule on the island would be better for us all . What if the effort , expense , time and resources spent on persuing national self determination , and cracking down and suppressing those persuing it , had instead been spent upon building an actual nation in its own right ? What if secular national sovereignty as opposed to church obedience had been central to our politics for the past century ? How could one and a half million extra citizens and more national territory be anything other than positive for a nation that was completely decimated by artifical starvation , conflcit , poverty , penal laws and discrimination ? what better excuse and impetus for national secularism than the necessity for national cohesion ?

    We can easily fund our nation by simply asserting our ownership of our national resources , empowering our citizens to the right to their nation . It would require a fundamental change from gombeenism to dignity but it appears to me thats a big step to ask a nation with historically low self expectations and ingrained servility to take . But finding the strength , assuredness and dignity to take it and change things would be good for us all . Highly beneficial .


  • #227
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    rb_ie wrote: »
    Yeah but sure that's life and democracy, they're welcome to move out of the North and into the Republic if they're so opposed to it and are living a horrible life up there.

    Rather than trying to "Unite" Ireland, why not move all those considering themselves "Irish" out of the North and into the republic? Sure, there may be a lot of them, but there seems to be soo many people who, at least on the internet, are soo passionate about the cause, I'm sure they'd be willing to let a few sleep in their living rooms etc until they find accomodation?

    If the "housing bubble" thread is anything to go by there's more than enough spare housing to go round.


  • #228
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    holy shoite!!!!

    i asked a question.. 16 pages in a few hours!!!!!

    can ofworms? ANYONE??

    im drunk and ive a woman infront of me wanting snyper love.... so the peace in the north takes a back seat for the next .. 90 seconds.. or maybe 3 mins if shes lucky..

    k thanks bye.


  • #229
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    rb_ie wrote: »
    Ah sure being called a West Brit is nothing. I don't particularly care how "Irish" people think I am. I just hope the same people who are touting "OIreland for the OIrish" will go and vote no in the Lisbon Treaty. Them voting yes would be, well, quite hilarious.

    Id imagine most of them , if not all would vote no . I also find your use of the term "Oireland for the Oirish" quite offensive . Why on earth do you need to adopt some stage music hall accent parody to describe your fellow citizens who believe another country helping itself to part of theirs is fundamnetally undemocratic and wrong ? would you like people to mock you with old chap , old bean etc for your pro British outlook ?
    I'm curious to know what he'd have pm'd me if he'd known I'm a COI Protestant (not practising however) though, that would have been funny. More ignorant drivel I'd imagine.

    Your religious background is irrelevant to me and id presume to many others .


    Yeah but sure that's life and democracy,

    its not democracy . Its a result of Britian refusing to recognise democracy on the island and instead engaging in a gerrymander .
    they're welcome to move out of the North and into the Republic if they're so opposed to it and are living a horrible life up there.

    Rather than trying to "Unite" Ireland, why not move all those considering themselves "Irish" out of the North and into the republic? Sure, there may be a lot of them, but there seems to be soo many people who, at least on the internet, are soo passionate about the cause, I'm sure they'd be willing to let a few sleep in their living rooms etc until they find accomodation?

    what your advocating is sectarian cleansing , and indeed many thousands of Irish people have been forced to leave their homes over the decades due to political ideas like this . Many thousands of southerners did indeed let people sleep in their homes due to the actions of the British governemnt . Others had to make do in refugee camps . An actual democracy would simply not give rise to such mass expulsions of a civilian population as we witnessed in the last century.


  • #230
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    snyper wrote: »
    holy shoite!!!!

    i asked a question.. 16 pages in a few hours!!!!!

    can ofworms? ANYONE??

    im drunk and ive a woman infront of me wanting snyper love.... so the peace in the north takes a back seat for the next .. 90 seconds.. or maybe 3 mins if shes lucky..

    k thanks bye.

    you provided the blue touchpaper and boards had the matches :D


  • #231
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    snyper wrote: »

    im drunk and ive a woman infront of me wanting snyper love.... so the peace in the north takes a back seat for the next .. 90 seconds.. or maybe 3 mins if shes lucky..

    .

    must be a short video clip

    :p


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  • #232
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭ [Deleted User]


    snyper wrote: »
    holy shoite!!!!

    i asked a question.. 16 pages in a few hours!!!!!

    can ofworms? ANYONE??

    im drunk and ive a woman infront of me wanting snyper love.... so the peace in the north takes a back seat for the next .. 90 seconds.. or maybe 3 mins if shes lucky..

    k thanks bye.

    Thats a sign of addiction to boards.


  • #233
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Well the unification of Ireland is happening to a certain degree as we speak. A lot of sporting bodies are now all Ireland. People from both sides of the border represent the island of Ireland. If I remember correctly, there is already co-operation on some infrastructure projects as well. While hardly a unified country, it's a start.

    I believe there is measures being put in place to make certain markets being made all ireland as well (the electricity market for one and I think the telecommunications market as well). After this it wouldn't be so hard to imagine other markets becoming all ireland. It could eventually lead to closer links between governemnt institutions on both sides of the border (e.g. the gardai and the psni co-operating more, education/health ministers introducing similar changes and standardising things more etc.).

    If Northern Ireland was handed back after all this standardisation and creation of common all ireland markets it would work a lot better. If it was to happen all at once then it would (like said above by other users) financially cripple the country as we tried to integrate all these different markets and government departments. Taking a slow but steady approach would be the most practicle way to do it.


  • #234
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Thats a sign of addiction to boards.
    He's given up smoking - so needs to log on afterwads ;)


  • #235
    stakey
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭stakey


    kreuzberger wrote: »
    One economy instead of two would make life better for us all.

    Agreed! Perhaps we should consider re-united with the United Kingdom so? As you say one economy is better than two, three or four!

    You don't seem to get it. The people who vote yes are completely bypassing the massive logistical and social changes that would need to be made to unite two different countries. That's what they are, two different countries. People in Northern Ireland live in the UK, people in the south live in the Republic. This really isn't a case of removing a few lines on maps and changing currency it's a huge task that the Republic cannot afford to take on.

    If Northern Ireland has any aspirations let it be towards nationhood or more self determination within the UK. As for economic matters, Northern Ireland is doing quite well on it's own with the 7.5 billion euro investment in it's economy annually. Northern Ireland's economy is growing at twice the average rate of the United Kingdom at 3.2% and this is expected to rise.

    It would be more logical economically to stay within the UK which can better weather international economic issues and local economic issues than the Republic. Uniting with the republic would mean a downturn in growth as NI would lose a huge amount of investment. Not to mention the services they enjoy up there like decent public transport, health etc would go to the dogs within years as it's incorporated into the Republic.

    Why would I vote no? Because it's best for the people of the North to simply learn how to live in peace and move beyond the politics of Green vs. Orange, Catholic vs. Protestant. A vote to Unite Ireland would only serve to divide that population further.


  • #236
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Ok.. im done... shes asleep.

    Jeez i was great.


  • #237
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    kreuzberger wrote:
    . It would require a fundamental change from gombeenism to dignity but it appears to me thats a big step to ask a nation with historically low self expectations and ingrained servility to take . But finding the strength , assuredness and dignity to take it and change things would be good for us all . Highly beneficial .

    Ah right. So the problem isn't just that we aren't patriotic enough, it's that Ireland just isn't as patriotic as you.

    National sovereignty is lovely. It's a lovely idea. But it's less important to me than what happens, say, in the immediate aftermath of a complete policing changeover in a historically troubled region, and I don't just mean the Troubles with a capital T.

    The North as it stands today isn't perfect. It's got problems, and plenty of them. But the quality of life is better than it's been for a long time, and the impact of the kind of gears-and-engines upheaval, the actual logistics of what we're talking about here would just not be justified by the end result. You could have argued that once, but not today.


  • #238
    Sherifu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,727 ✭✭✭✭Sherifu


    Dyslexics of Ireland, untie!


  • #239
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    Well the unification of Ireland is happening to a certain degree as we speak. A lot of sporting bodies are now all Ireland. People from both sides of the border represent the island of Ireland. If I remember correctly, there is already co-operation on some infrastructure projects as well. While hardly a unified country, it's a start.

    I believe there is measures being put in place to make certain markets being made all ireland as well (the electricity market for one and I think the telecommunications market as well). After this it wouldn't be so hard to imagine other markets becoming all ireland. It could eventually lead to closer links between governemnt institutions on both sides of the border (e.g. the gardai and the psni co-operating more, education/health ministers introducing similar changes and standardising things more etc.).

    If Northern Ireland was handed back after all this standardisation and creation of common all ireland markets it would work a lot better. If it was to happen all at once then it would (like said above by other users) financially cripple the country as we tried to integrate all these different markets and government departments. Taking a slow but steady approach would be the most practicle way to do it.
    Tis very true, these things take time. Until the UK joins the euro (I'm amazed no one mentioned it earlier) the economics of co-operation are difficult to manage with flucturating exchange rates.

    Fortunately most things are the same already, power sockets for example, it's just the economic & political & culteral differences that need to be sorted out. simple.... :rolleyes:


  • #240
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    kreuzberger wrote: »
    your posts seemed positively designed to cause offence and indeed it was yourself who first argued that Irish citizens from the occupied territory werent Irish , that Irish territory was British etc , so you cant really complain when your own outward lack of patriotism and support for British rule in your country calls your own Irishness into question . Whilst id completely disagree with anyone sending you abusive pms i also find your abusive and obscene language wholly unnecessary and indeed offensive . Its dragging down the tone of the debate , as do your accusations of support for terrorism with anyone who disagrees with you .
    Tell me this.

    Why should I support a United Ireland? What benefits are there for our economy in it? I don't want to hear "We'll be free of British rule yaarrr" crap, I want the direct benefits to our economy as a result of the unification of Ireland. I'm failing to see them, I'd see it as a huge drain on the economy and what with the immensely possible consequences (such as a loyalist uprising, paramilitary activity etc) it just doesn't make sense to have a "United Ireland". The costs/negatives hugely outweight the positive aspects to it (aspects which I, an average person, certainly do not care about).

    Why not just let it be? If the catholics are so unhappy up there, why don't they move?

    The North has not worked out well, it's a pretty huge mess, why do we need to take control of it? We don't. It's the UKs burden, they created it so let them deal with it.

    And to those saying Unite the people up North first, I fully agree, however, I don't think it'll ever happen. People may say a generation will die and things will improve, but said generation is bringing up a new generation of hate filled racists, and in turn they'll bring up their own.

    I don't support British Rule, per se, I think they should bear the burden that they've created, rather than handing it over the us and having us try to cope with it.

    I'm glad we have our independence, given some of the policies of the British government (immigrantion/military/etc). I think people just need to "let go" of the past, accept things for how they are and be grateful for the position we're in now.


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  • #241
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    rb_ie wrote: »
    And to those saying Unite the people up North first, I fully agree, however, I don't think it'll ever happen. People may say a generation will die and things will improve, but said generation is bringing up a new generation of hate filled racists, and in turn they'll bring up their own.

    True that they will raise their own but I'd say that their numbers will still dwindle. As time goes on more and more people will realise how petty and stupid it is to despise someone because of their religion or where they were born. Their parents may still think like that but how my opinions on things can vary wildly from my parents opinions on things and that would be the same for a lot of people. Like everything else it will take time but these people are a dieing breed.


  • #242
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    rb_ie wrote: »
    And to those saying Unite the people up North first, I fully agree, however, I don't think it'll ever happen. People may say a generation will die and things will improve, but said generation is bringing up a new generation of hate filled racists, and in turn they'll bring up their own.
    .

    Apparantly in some parts of England it took nearly two hundred years for the wounds of the civil war to completely heal, neighbouring villagers refused to talk to each other...
    Unfortunately the generation most affected by the troubles are in their forties now and their children in their twenties, in certain parts of northern Ireland these people never have any contact with "the other tribe". It's really down to those people not to pass on their hatrid to the next generation.


  • #243
    beautiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭beautiation


    Cockney Rebel wrote: »
    How can it be democratic that 80 odd years ago a border was drawn round
    a part of Ireland purely on religious grounds? A sectarian designed state.
    How can something that was plainly undemocratic now be democratic?

    Borders are drawn as wars and politics demand over time. There are no absolute territories that never change, its only the wishes of the people and/or ruling classes of each era that dictates where the borders end up being for that time. So you really have to get it out of your head that the north south boundary is any different. It was drawn up because the people there wanted to continue belonging to the UK. Ireland is an island, depending on the diversity of the people inhabiting it it could be 1 territory, or it could be 2, or 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,8 whatever! It's entirely flexible to whatever amount of division is needed to accomodate the people, just like any land on the planet. At the moment there is a large part that wants to be the Irish Republic, and a smaller part where the majority want to be in the UK. And they have that right. The south have no more right to start saying what the north should be than the north have the right to tell us down here to get back in the UK. It's all about the people.

    It would be lovely if we could flick a switch and undo all the unfair invasions and surpressions of culture of history right back to the first time Ugg took over Mugg's cave and rubbed out all his paintings, but it's just not gonna happen. The British invasion was unfair, but so were a lot of invasions in history, we can't undo them all so why is this situation different? Its illogical to stick to old ideals of boundarys through changes of demographics. What makes a place Irish is not the land, but the people! And if the people don't define themselves anymore as Irish it's not for us to tell them they are!
    Indulge me...
    If everyone in, say, France were to die tomorrow, would the country remain there, lifeless and untouched by others just because the grass is quintessentially French somehow? No. France would be populated again by people of other nationalities, who would incorporate their new settlements into other countries, boundaries would change, and the world would proceed. If, years later, one french survivor showed up and started demanding he should be given ownership of the whole place and get to kick everyone out, he'd be laughed out of the place. And rightly so. Demographics create ideals like ownership of land by a people, but shifts of demographics ensure that such claims are always (eventually) transient things.
    We should just look to the future and work towards a situation where the people of each land can be whatever they want, free of other peoples sticking their oar in and trying to revert things to a setup that is no longer relevant. The concept of a united Ireland was great back in the 1200's. It's not now as we are no longer a homogenous people. That's why the partition was a great idea back in the 20's and why its counter-productive to the general rules of civilisation now for us down south to try and rush a situation of Ireland being 1 territory again before the demographics (the demographics of the north, not the republic) suggest it should be the case. We're priveleged to live in a civilised era where people (in this part of the world at least) finally matter a damn. We should be proud to uphold humanity's progress, forget the past for the good of the people of the present, and leave northern Ireland free to do what it wants. I'd be as glad as you if they joined the republic peacefully and democratically someday, but it should be nothing whatsoever to do with the wishes of people south of the border or the people of the other UK territories. Our only relevence would be in deciding whether we wanted them or not. And David Healy might have retired by then... ;)

    Sorry if any of this is too angry or anything, it's a bad habit of mine to go a bit OTT about things. Bad habit debating drills into ya.


  • #244
    Gorilla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭Gorilla


    I signed in just to vote yes to this poll. Oh and its weird to see a debate on politics in the After Hours section! Most polls here I see are on wheater After Hours is more gay or straight...


  • #245
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    beautiation wrote: »
    If, years later, one french survivor showed up and started demanding he should be given ownership of the whole place and get to kick everyone out, he'd be laughed out of the place. And rightly so.

    It's Israels 60th birthday in a couple of days time. They're lucky they weren't French according to what you say ;)


  • #246
    Neamhshuntasach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,171 ✭✭✭Neamhshuntasach


    A lot of Irish people make me sick with their comments in here.

    The north is Ireland and should be united.


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  • #247
    ibuprofen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 184 ✭✭ibuprofen


    The vote to divide up Ireland in the first place was a farce.
    The History , which I have plagurised from history world.net is

    ''the logical implication of this is that nationalist Catholics living in large border regions of Tyrone and Fermanagh, and in areas of Derry, Down and Armagh, should have been included in the Irish Free State.''

    It was divided up illegally from the start and it should be up to the inhabitants now... Seems fair!! Each county should be allowed vote where they want to live . It's democracy.....

    I would wager a guess that seeing the economic benefits that if a referendum on the matter was held now a yes vote would win through...:)


  • #248
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Neamhshuntasach wrote: »
    A lot of Irish people make me sick with their comments in here.

    The north is Ireland and should be united.

    A lot of people made nearly exactly this post. I find it nauseating, because it's so blatant you've given it no thought at all and just parroted off the usual sh*te. It's really juvenile; trying to bully or shame people into believing that what you believe is right because you say it is.

    Why should it be united? And don't give me that crap about blah blah blah how unfair Britain's conquest of Ireland was. Right here, and now, what are the material, tangible benefits to the people of North and South?

    I don't give a crap what flags are flying over the Government offices, so long as the people on the streets get the best deal they can. I have yet to be convinced uniting with the Republic can offer them that; the complications arising from doing so would be just too great to solve. As a country, we should be grown up enough to put our egos away when we look at the issue; as far as I can see, at this point it's largely a playground matter of tit-for-tat.


  • #249
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    rb_ie wrote: »
    Ah sure being called a West Brit is nothing.
    "West Brit" is such a dumb phrase/label - exceptionally lazy, along the same lines as "PC gone mad".
    I'm curious to know what he'd have pm'd me if he'd known I'm a COI Protestant (not practising however)
    Ah well then you're definitely not Irish ;)


  • #250
    toiletduck
    Registered Users Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭toiletduck


    No, I see no benefits whatsoever. Also can you imagine the Dail with a 20% representation from the DUP, unionists etc.


  • #251
    Cockney Rebel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭Cockney Rebel


    toiletduck wrote: »
    No, I see no benefits whatsoever. Also can you imagine the Dail with a 20% representation from the DUP, unionists etc.

    éire nua is the way forward.

    http://rsf.ie/eirenua.htm


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