IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

MouseTail · 18-11-2014 12:43am

Streetwalker wrote: »

Paul Murphy was doing crowd control? Jesus he must be hard up.

He actually appeared quite shaken himself by the infiltration. I think he might have been a little naive. He totally batted away the suggestion, on Marian Finnucane I think, that Stewards be provided on future protests. This appears to be out of the control of AAA/SP at this stage.

Streetwalker · 18-11-2014 12:44am

omega man wrote: »

And thousands less jobs. Not saying you're wrong but it's worth pointing out.

So it's okay if they don't pay tax then?

BoatMad · 18-11-2014 12:44am

drynne wrote: »

We also pay for the fire service in tax. So why do people get landed with a €500 bill for a call out?

We also pay motor tax for maintenance of roads so why am I avoiding pot holes on roads?

What we pay for water is barely keeping an antiquated system running. To get the water infrastructure in this country to where it needs to be it needs investment. Boil notices all over the country, over 40% treated water lost through leaks. Government needs the cash to develop it.

There is a current budget deficit, THAT means , you don't pay enough motor tax, income tax, fire tax or whatever

I mean where have you been in the least 5 years

Streetwalker · 18-11-2014 12:45am

MouseTail wrote: »

He actually appeared quite shaken himself by the infiltration. I think he might have been a little naive. He totally batted away the suggestion, on Marian Finnucane I think, that Stewards be provided on future protests. This appears to be out of the control of AAA/SP at this stage.

It's a people driven revolution, nobody gives a hoot about AAA or SF etc...

BoatMad · 18-11-2014 12:46am

Gringo180 wrote: »

So you think paying less than 1% tax on billions of euros of profit is fair?

They dont actually make billions of profit in ireland , they play a legal transfer pricing game.

The country actually loosing billions in tax is the USA, not us.

BoatMad · 18-11-2014 12:46am

Streetwalker wrote: »

It's a people driven revolution......

yes , uptil about Thursday

dav3 · 18-11-2014 12:47am

donvito99 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2014/0919/644947-income-tax-change/

It's pretty obvious that income tax levels will come down as the burden eases and the political reality for the government becomes more stark.

So in a few years, income taxes will fall, and those who pay more are the ones who waste more water.

Seems like a good idea for me.

Absolutely no mention of paying twice for water resulting in lower taxes, or indeed any mention of water in that article.

Only a reduction in the higher rate, which is what you would expect from FG, pandering to the right.

jank · 18-11-2014 12:47am

Gringo180 wrote: »

If Apple, Google, Facebook etc. paid a fraction of the tax the working class did we would have had enough money ten times over. It is unfair to hit people who havent got it with more taxes/charges.

If you mean working class as in low income earners, they pay hardly any tax in the first place. Apple and Joe Blogg's on the min wage have that in common. It is the person earning 40k a year who is getting screwed.

Banjo String · 18-11-2014 12:47am

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

He did very well. Very articulate, and really explained the issues succinctly and convincingly. Easily batted away the questions aimed at putting him under pressure - and really answered them, not just by waffle and avoidance.
I would say he both won a lot of fans and swung people round to supporting what they are doing. Impressive guy.

Others disagree, but I haven't seen it so cannot comment wither way.

donvito99 wrote: »

And conversely it's the governments right to penalise you not doing so. Says so right there in the Constitution.

What does it say in the constitution about not paying Irish Water?

MouseTail · 18-11-2014 12:47am

Streetwalker wrote: »

It's a people driven revolution, nobody gives a hoot about AAA or SF etc...

It was.

AboutaWeekAgo · 18-11-2014 12:48am

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Both really. Yes the diversion of general tax revenue to water services will stop so you will not be paying that way.
And yes, we will be paying double. Which is good news since it will bring the payment up to the correct level for a good sustainable service rather than the underfunded infrastructure the current system was only half funding. What you will pay over the next ten years is also paying for what you didnt pay over the last 30 years.

Paying double is good news?? I don't have a penny left to me name at the end of the week for food let alone any extra to pay double taxes.

Also, I haven't been alive for 30 years, I'm a bit away from that yet thankfully so I don't think all of those back payments I apparently owe apply

masculinist · 18-11-2014 12:48am

BoatMad wrote: »

There is a current budget deficit, THAT means , you don't pay enough motor tax, income tax, fire tax or whatever

I mean where have you been in the least 5 years

No. It means those who caused the biggest problems don't pay enough tax [ or with prison time, in fact they have been rewarded with pensions, quango jobs , promotions and things which would turn the stomach of anyone with morals] while those who worked their asses off pay it all.

I mean where have you been in the last 5 years

dubrov · 18-11-2014 12:48am

Streetwalker wrote:

So it's okay if they don't pay tax then?

Of course not but we live in the real world.

SaveOurLyric · 18-11-2014 12:49am

BoatMad wrote: »

They dont actually make billions of profit in ireland , they play a legal transfer pricing game.

The country actually loosing billions in tax is the USA, not us.

This is the thing. You are a winner on the 1% tax thing Gringo. Dont complain about it. Just hang on to it for a long as possible.

BoatMad · 18-11-2014 12:49am

dav3 wrote: »

Oh dear, you're not so naive as to think all this extra revenue will be put into infrastructure repairs are you?

If you take the tax spend as a whole, a huge percentage is consumed by SW and Health. The next biggest percentage is public sector wages.

I don't see your leftie friends, suggesting massive wage cuts in the public sector, or closing hospitals, simply so you can not pay for your water.

Banjo String · 18-11-2014 12:50am

BoatMad wrote: »

There is a current budget deficit, THAT means , you don't pay enough motor tax, income tax, fire tax or whatever

I mean where have you been in the least 5 years

Or it might mean were paying more than enough, but it is being, and has been misspent and squandered by this and previous govts for years now.

Streetwalker · 18-11-2014 12:50am

MouseTail wrote: »

It was.

It is right now. 400 people turned up tonight in Sligo on a wet cold windy night to show their disgust at the establishment. They should be worried because people have had enough.

SaveOurLyric · 18-11-2014 12:50am

AboutaWeekAgo wrote: »

Paying double is good news?? I don't have a penny left to me name at the end of the week for food let alone any extra to pay double taxes.

Also, I haven't been alive for 30 years, I'm a bit away from that yet thankfully so I don't think all of those back payments I apparently owe apply

Not you personally. But the country. As a taxpayer, that unfortunately means you gotta pay the bills for the past - non one else will.

donvito99 · 18-11-2014 12:51am

Banjo String wrote: »

What does it say in the constitution about not paying Irish Water?

If you re read my reply and understand what I was referring to you'd agree with me that the Government of the day and the state has the right to levy taxes and punish those proportionately for failing to do so.

EDIT: Would also agree that Varadkar's performance was good. More of him please, less of Burton and Kenny. They're weak.

Streetwalker · 18-11-2014 12:51am

BoatMad wrote: »

yes , uptil about Thursday

The sly governments tactics are making the anger worse . You really haven't a clue have you.

Streetwalker · 18-11-2014 12:52am

donvito99 wrote: »

If you re read my reply and understand what I was referring to you'd agree with me that the Government of the day and the state has the right to levy taxes and punish those proportionately for failing to do so.

It's a tax now is it? Thought it was a charge?

Streetwalker · 18-11-2014 12:53am

dubrov wrote: »

Of course not but we live in the real world.

And in my world I pay already for water so f uc k them

SaveOurLyric · 18-11-2014 12:53am

Banjo String wrote: »

Or it might mean were paying more than enough, but it is being, and has been misspent and squandered by this and previous govts for years now.

A government representing you. Misspending it on you. And squandering it on you. So only yourself to blame now that its tme to pay the bill.

donvito99 · 18-11-2014 12:53am

Banjo String wrote: »

Or it might mean were paying more than enough, but it is being, and has been misspent and squandered by this and previous govts for years now.

So you want cuts? yeah, cause cuts to the Department of Cronyism will deliver €billions in savings.

Gringo180 · 18-11-2014 12:53am

BoatMad wrote: »

They dont actually make billions of profit in ireland , they play a legal transfer pricing game.

The country actually loosing billions in tax is the USA, not us.

What about Google only paying 27 million in taxes on 17 billion in revenue?

I don't care if they create jobs, its just not fair to protect multi billion pound corporations like this country does, especially when the working class are getting hit with charge after charge.

gandalf · 18-11-2014 12:54am

BoatMad wrote: »

You don't get it do you, the fact is you ar'nt already paying for it, the infrastructure is collapsing.

No I do get it. We are paying for it. The people who have been tasked with running it have not done their jobs. Now some of those very same people are the upper management of Irish Water and the people who will be carrying out these repairs are the same workers who couldn't do the jobs for the councils.

I don't have faith in them to carry out this work with the current setup of IW..

yes, but the monies here are not the problem,( they are small in comparison) the narrow tax base is.

Yes that is an issue. A bigger issue is the whole cost to run the PS. This has not been addressed at all. That is where this Government should have dedicated all their resources. Sort out the cost of running the Government, it benifits by lowering the cost of living, the cost to business and then you can look at widening the tax base and therefore ensure that there is a better tax stream for the country as a whole.

Introduce another tax without any real reform is just continuing on the same old bollix that got us in this mess in the first place.

To be honest so what, its not like the semi states don't charge the arse of us anyway, I couldn't care less. At least a private company wouldn't be shackled with the nonsense that is all these CC workers

If we had a choice I would agree with you 100%. However giving a Private company a complete and utter monopoly over a resource like water would be a recipe for disaster. Couple this with very weak any consumer regulators and we will be paying a hell of a lot more for our water in future if IW was owned privately.

Yes, but there will always be some waste, its a complicated task to balance.

Yes but there is no balance at all. No meaningful work has occured on the wastage in the delivery of PS. Now we have a situation where another "HSE" has been created to suck up more of our resources. I disagree with this totally.

Again you don't get it, there is a budget deficit, the taxes collected DO NOT pay for the system the country is running. one way or the other , if you want those systems , you will have to pay for it

The is no free lunch, which you seem to ignore.

I think we are closer on our opinions that you think. I just feel it is time to tackle the costs in running the PS aggressively before we try and pile more taxes onto the squeezed classes. The day of the job for life is over, it is time to push this mantra into the PS.

I agree totally with consumption based taxes. Motor tax should be collected at source by adding a cost to the price of fuel. You could then remove the cost of having a fully populated staff dedicated in it's collection, no more IT systems to refresh, no more software to update and purchase, no more office space to rent.

Tinkersbell · 18-11-2014 12:55am

Red Pepper wrote: »

He's probably the best and most honest politician Fine Gael have. He will be a future leader of FG.

The FG machine will knock the honesty out of him soon enough.
Party first everything else second.
Don't question Dear Leader Kenny.

SaveOurLyric · 18-11-2014 12:55am

donvito99 wrote: »

EDIT: Would also agree that Varadkar's performance was good. More of him please, less of Burton and Kenny. They're weak.

Agree. Alan Kelly has impressed my also though. I wasnt really aware of him until he got this gig, but doing very well after having to walk out onto a sticky wicket.

The_Valeyard · 18-11-2014 12:56am

The country is a tinderbox waiting to explode. 5 years of pent up anger and rage.

Both sides need to be careful before that match is lit.

Banjo String · 18-11-2014 12:57am

donvito99 wrote: »

If you re read my reply and understand what I was referring to you'd agree with me that the Government of the day and the state has the right to levy taxes and punish those proportionately for failing to do so.

EDIT: Would also agree that Varadkar's performance was good. More of him please, less of Burton and Kenny. They're weak.

I did read it, several times. Still looks to me though that you're Implying that the government have some right to penalise him for refusing to pay a bill from Irish Water, and they have legislation enshrined in the Constitution in reference to it.

Streetwalker wrote: »

If they want to pay that's their right. It's my right to not pay.

donvito99 wrote: »

And conversely it's the governments right to penalise you not doing so. Says so right there in the Constitution.

omega man · 18-11-2014 12:57am

Streetwalker wrote: »

So it's okay if they don't pay tax then?

I never said that. They do pay tax though but yes probably not their fair share. The alternative would see them set up elsewhere and thousands of irish people would lose quality jobs.

donvito99 · 18-11-2014 12:57am

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The country is a tinderbox waiting to explode. 5 years of pent up anger and rage.

Both sides need to be careful before that match is lit.

The country is about as flammable as a damp rag. You flatter yourself and your movement.

BoatMad · 18-11-2014 12:58am

masculinist wrote: »

No. It means those who caused the biggest problems don't pay enough tax [ or with prison time, in fact they have been rewarded with pensions, quango jobs , promotions and things which would turn the stomach of anyone with morals] while those who worked their asses off pay it all.

I mean where have you been in the last 5 years

The tax the rich nonsense, is all very well. Its used constantly by the left to somehow make the figures work.

however

(a) The moderately rich, seem to be in some peoples eyes , those with combined incomes of over 100,000. That is two married A post teachers, etc etc. These people already pay very high levels of tax.

(b) If you take the revenue figures, the percentage of taxpayers earning over that is actually quite small. Hence even if you took every red cent off them, you can't generate enough revenue.

(c) If you are taking about fat pensions and quangos, fundamentally you are taking about public servants or semi-state servants, all of whom have high salaries in comparison with other European states, big protected pensions, unlike most private sector workers, etc etc. Yes we could save millions and millions by tackling sector and semi-state excesses. But I see no Leftie on that message.

Much as you might like to break the few people that you seem to hate, either they will leave the state and take their money with then ( like O;brien or Bono) or ultimately theres simply not enough money from them to solve the problem

This is always why governments turn to the vast majority of middle classes to tax , this is why pay-unrelated tax is so popular like LPT etc, IT generates tax revenue like no other.

Leave the so -called vengeance stuff for the movies. It solves nothing, jailing patrick neary isn't going to solve the current budget deficit.

yipeeeee · 18-11-2014 12:59am

Do people really think Joan and enda are enjoying knowing their hated.

Their making tough decisions to get this country back running.

I believe people actually think they wake up trying to think of ways to not get themselves voted back in the next election.

They know this has basically ended their stay of been in government, so why are they persisting?

masculinist · 18-11-2014 1:02am

omega man wrote: »

They do pay tax though but yes probably not their fair share. The alternative would see them set up elsewhere and thousands of irish people would lose quality jobs.

Theres still loads of shyte going on which can be cut out without costing one FDI job .Irish Water is just the most recent example of where the taxpayers money is being squandered with bonuses for sitting on your arse and a few pensions in case its too hard to survive on just one. Poor dears. The price of caviar must have rocketed since the Russian sanctions.
The government and Dinnys Nom Domicile Bailed out Media corp has brainwashed people into believing that its either the backs of ordinary PAYE workers or else its the backs of the FDI corporations. That is nonsense. We can have that debate once we cut out the shyte, corruption and pure robbery endemic in the system. Kenny was elected for no more quangos - Liebour was elected for no water tax. Moan face and Kenny better suck it up. Its time to leave Leinster House as failures.

The_Valeyard · 18-11-2014 1:02am

donvito99 wrote: »

The country is about as flammable as a damp rag. You flatter yourself and your movement.

My movement? Do tell me how I am involved or leading a movement. Your post is about as accurate as Irish Waters General knowledge.

SaveOurLyric · 18-11-2014 1:03am

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The country is a tinderbox waiting to explode. 5 years of pent up anger and rage.

Both sides need to be careful before that match is lit.

Ahhhh, the ever present dream of the revolutionary. But it never does explode does it ? Maybe its not a tinderbox at all....

donvito99 · 18-11-2014 1:03am

yipeeeee wrote: »

So people really think Joan and end a are enjoying knowing their hated.

Their making tough decisions to get this country back running.

I believe people actually think they wake up trying to think of ways to not get themselves voted back in the next election.

They know this has basically ended their stay of been in government.

There are people like me who appreciate the job they've done in turning the place around in 4 years to a point where we can start chipping away at the debt at the same time as incrementally increasing spending on public services.

They won't be in government (but I'll be reelecting them as is), but they'll leave SF/FF to do a lot more than if the reverse had happened (imagine Ireland today had we taken the extreme route in 2010 and defaulted - no one else's done it, for a reason), I fear they'll squander it and show their true colours, at least we've seen FG/Lab's.

Tony EH · 18-11-2014 1:05am

BoatMad wrote: »

I want IW disbanded, but I understand a large proportion of the fees actually went to the IT companies in designing and installing the new computerised billing systems.

It should be mentioned that Bord Gais, which won the contract to manage IW, did so mainly on the basis that its IT systems had the spare capacity and complexity to handle the billing systems. Funnily once they won the contract, the same said IT systems suddenly were not up to the job and millions hence was spent ( in a hurry ) ,

That's only the first step in the Irish Water wasteathon.

My name is URL · 18-11-2014 1:06am

yipeeeee wrote: »

I believe people actually think they wake up trying to think of ways to not get themselves voted back in the next election.

lol. Do you honestly believe either of them intend or even want to be reelected?

They know this has basically ended their stay of been in government, so why are they persisting?

They want their full pensions, and nobody else in either party want to take the helm in such choppy waters.

gandalf · 18-11-2014 1:06am

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The country is a tinderbox waiting to explode. 5 years of pent up anger and rage.

Both sides need to be careful before that match is lit.

Oh please this is just being dramatic. What will happen is we will have a change of Government in 2016. This government is not going to fall before then. Labour will not pull the plug, at the moment they will be obliterated. By hanging on they hope that they can minimise the damage. FG won't pull the plug either and I believe they have had all the defections already. I do see Enda being ousted before the next Election probably by Leo.

shedweller · 18-11-2014 1:07am

BoatMad wrote: »

There is a current budget deficit, THAT means , you don't pay enough motor tax, income tax, fire tax or whatever

I mean where have you been in the least 5 years

We WERE though. We were paying enough tax. Then the crash happened (share prices, feck all to do with us in any meaningful sense) and people got let go (or went on the dole)and fecked off to wherever, leaving those left with more tax to pay.
I may actually be better off on the dole myself but i stupidly keep working away and paying a metric ****ton of money to creches(i could buy a small house outright with that alone!), diesel, tax, a plethora of insurances... and all the rest. So this water tax(which has feck all to do with conservation btw) is just another bill i have to pay now. It leaves less money for me to spend on the economy which will suffer just a teensy bit as a result. But thats a lot of teensy bits added together isnt it?
Do our troika lapdogs care? Maybe they do. But the cold steel of the troikas gun barrel is against their heads and has been for a long time and they will not stop and neither will whoever gets voted in after them. Because they are all the same and are sufficiently removed from reality to not give a flying feck about the reality on the ground.

So tax away lads and make sure your cronies have deep pockets because we have generations of mugs in (portakabin) schools right now that will keep you in the lifestyle you are accustomed to for a very long time.

BoatMad · 18-11-2014 1:09am

gandalf wrote: »

No I do get it. We are paying for it. The people who have been tasked with running it have not done their jobs. Now some of those very same people are the upper management of Irish Water and the people who will be carrying out these repairs are the same workers who couldn't do the jobs for the councils.

I don't have faith in them to carry out this work with the current setup of IW..

I agree, about IW, its a disaster, But the fact remains that the infrastructure was allowed to collapse as a consequence of the removal of rates and the underfeeding of local authorities for decades, The LPT and water are rates in disguise.

Yes that is an issue. A bigger issue is the whole cost to run the PS. This has not been addressed at all. That is where this Government should have dedicated all their resources. Sort out the cost of running the Government, it benifits by lowering the cost of living, the cost to business and then you can look at widening the tax base and therefore ensure that there is a better tax stream for the country as a whole.

100% agree, the public service is too expensive , over payed and inefficient and is a massive drain on the ordinary average worker. I see no leftie on this message though

Introduce another tax without any real reform is just continuing on the same old bollix that got us in this mess in the first place.

True, but what Giv has the balls to take on the public service. In my view we had a chance during the crash, to massively cut back the sector, but FG, or more importantly Labour completely ducked it and supported their union friends.

If we had a choice I would agree with you 100%. However giving a Private company a complete and utter monopoly over a resource like water would be a recipe for disaster. Couple this with very weak any consumer regulators and we will be paying a hell of a lot more for our water in future if IW was owned privatel

regulations can be changed. Look at the UK, have a look at the bills for water.

Ultimately if you are not prepared to reform the public sector to levels of performance and cost comparable with the best private sector companies, then you will overpay for water.

remember if you privatise water, you can easily create a multiple producer , single network model, my broadband has got better as a result of that model.

Yes but there is no balance at all. No meaningful work has occured on the wastage in the delivery of PS. Now we have a situation where another "HSE" has been created to suck up more of our resources. I disagree with this totally.

unfortunately , waste is the excessive wages in the PS, waste is the gold plated pensions, waste is the poor and inefficient work practices. tackling them is very difficult. IN the meantime , we have to pay to keep the lights on.

I think we are closer on our opinions that you think. I just feel it is time to tackle the costs in running the PS aggressively before we try and pile more taxes onto the squeezed classes. The day of the job for life is over, it is time to push this mantra into the PS.

100%

I agree totally with consumption based taxes. Motor tax should be collected at source by adding a cost to the price of fuel. You could then remove the cost of having a fully populated staff dedicated in it's collection, no more IT systems to refresh, no more software to update and purchase, no more office space to rent.

100%, hence I support the water charges and hate IW.

yipeeeee · 18-11-2014 1:09am

My name is URL wrote: »

lol. Do you honestly believe either of them intend or even want to be reelected?

They want their full pensions, and nobody else in either party want to take the helm in such choppy waters.

Ah so its just about their pensions.

I see.

The_Valeyard · 18-11-2014 1:10am

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Ahhhh, the ever present dream of the revolutionary. But it never does explode does it ? Maybe its not a tinderbox at all....

Not a revolutionary. Just a centrist with bit of realism. Both sides are entrenched in their positions, with the middle class finally awake to the politic sphere rather than just ballot boxes every four years, there is a real sense of people have finally just had enough. So maybe this tinderbox is slowly smouldering and has been for some time. People are just sick of the same old and feel the need for a radical political overhaul, which does not necessarily mean the far left.

donvito99 · 18-11-2014 1:11am

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Just a centrist with bit of realism.

I cant read that with a straight face.

The_Valeyard · 18-11-2014 1:12am

donvito99 wrote: »

I cant read that with a straight face.

See a doctor.

My name is URL · 18-11-2014 1:14am

yipeeeee wrote: »

Ah so its just about their pensions.

I see.

You must have missed the second part of what I said. They can't just walk away now after bringing their parties this far, and with such a shitstorm ongoing.

There's nothing more that some FG TD's would like than for Kenny to be gone, but they're not prepared to push him out if it means that one of them has to sacrifice their political future by taking his place now.

So no, it's not all about pensions. Perhaps just 70-80%

donvito99 · 18-11-2014 1:14am

The_Valeyard wrote: »

See a doctor.

You call yourself a realist and predict some sort of revolution. That'd be unthinkable and no amount of beleagured water protesters are gonna make that happen.

So my amusement at your assertion requires no medical attention, thanks.

gandalf · 18-11-2014 1:15am

BoatMad wrote: »

100%, hence I support the water charges and hate IW.

So you supported an organisation that you agree is tainted and one that has already proven is wasting a very large proportion of the resources that are allocated to it?

Whilst in theory I support consumption based taxes I will not pay money to an organisation that has been set up in a very haphazard fashion, that doesn't value data protection and does waste resources in a fashion worst than the leakage through the pipes it uses to deliver its services.

I also refuse to be double, triple I mean quadruple taxed for a service.

IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

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