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The sex myth

13567…10

Comments

  • #102
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    tap me on the arm
    IM0 wrote: »
    so what about if they have a fetish for elbows? then thats sexual assault is it

    ...no.

    Stroking and groping your elbow would be weird as hell, though.


    Don't you have a better argument than a strawman?


  • #103
    IM0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,390 ✭✭✭IM0


    Lingua Franca wrote: »


    Don't you have a better argument than a strawman?

    I was just borrowing your one, sorry you can have it back now


  • #104
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    No, that's assault. Do you really need this explained to you?

    A slap in the chest is assault... leading to... ?
    A slap in the face is assault... leading to... ?
    according to you...
    A slap on the ass is sexual assault...leading to.... RAPE.

    :confused:


  • #105
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    smash wrote: »
    Violence? If someone slapped your back is it violence? Only if you want it to be...

    Err, yes. :confused:
    Why did you highlight: Trivializing sexual assault (“Boys will be boys!”) there? Every man here has said they've had women do it to them!

    Because you're trivialising sexual assault. I've addressed the same behaviours from women already.

    "Sexual harassment refers to persistent and unwanted sexual advances"
    A slap in jest is generally not persistent. If it was persistent then it's a different matter.

    I see you like wikipedia. Other sources are available. Most of those say "unwanted sexual advances".


  • #106
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    No.

    But it is excusing, tolerating and condoning sexual violence.

    Here's some more.

    Giving people advice to reduce their chances of being raped is a good thing, you can call that "rape culture" or whatever you want.

    If you teach people to be careful dealing with electrical components in case they are faulty does that mean we are living in an electrocution culture?


  • #107
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    IM0 wrote: »
    I was just borrowing your one, sorry you can have it back now

    I didn't have one. You must have picked it up from someone else.
    Uriel. wrote: »
    A slap in the chest is assault... leading to... ?
    A slap in the face is assault... leading to... ?
    according to you...
    A slap on the ass is sexual assault...leading to.... RAPE.

    :confused:

    According to me?

    Can either of you guys back up these posts with a quote, please?


  • #108
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    Giving people advice to reduce their chances of being raped is a good thing, you can call that "rape culture" or whatever you want.

    If you teach people to be careful dealing with electrical components in case they are faulty does that mean we are living in an electrocution culture?

    1. Most people are raped in their own homes by people they know. Giving advice about not going out after dark/not wearing revealing clothes or high heels etc etc. do little or nothing to reduce the incidence of rape, they put the onus on the potential victim to change their behaviour.

    2. I didn't realise electrical components were conscious, thinking beings acting with intent to cause electrocution.

    Bottom line: Rapists are not a mindless force of nature, they are human beings who choose to rape.


  • #109
    Trudiha
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭Trudiha


    Uriel. wrote: »
    A slap in the chest is assault... leading to... ?
    A slap in the face is assault... leading to... ?
    according to you...
    A slap on the ass is sexual assault...leading to.... RAPE.

    :confused:

    Sexual assault doesn't always lead to rape but an acceptance of sexual assault creates an environment in which rape is more likely to happen. If a young boy (or girl) is given the impression that it's alright to touch, fondle or feel another person's body, without their consent, for their own sexual gratification, they are being given a very messed up idea of what acceptable behaviour is.


  • #110
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    attitudes from a by gone era. there was a time when a firm slap on the behind was totally acceptable, look at James Bond movies or Mad Men.
    i think its part of the reason there is a higher incidence of suicide in young men, there are conflicting messages on what a man should be, how he should behave. Phrases like "be a man" "man up" "are you a man or a mouse?" - pressure to act the part but much conflicting direction. Coupled with the denomisation of men in the media and the fact that many women secretly enjoy being dominated by their man in private.


  • #111
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    I've had my ass slapped and pinched a few times out by girls. I didn't get the big deal and didn't feel sexually assaulted.

    So if it is so, so bad why doesn't it work both ways and for me to be extremely offended?


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  • #112
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    attitudes from a by gone era. there was a time when a firm slap on the behind was totally acceptable, look at James Bond movies or Mad Men.
    i think its part of the reason there is a higher incidence of suicide in young men, there are conflicting messages on what a man should be, how he should behave. Phrases like "be a man" "man up" "are you a man or a mouse?" - pressure to act the part but much conflicting direction. Coupled with the denomisation of men in the media and the fact that many women secretly enjoy being dominated by their man in private.

    Are you saying that:

    Not being able to slap someone on the ass is a component in suicide?


  • #113
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    1ZRed wrote: »
    I've had my ass slapped and pinched a few times out by girls. I didn't get the big deal and didn't feel sexually assaulted.

    So if it is so, so bad why doesn't it work both ways and for me to be extremely offended?

    You should be offended and down the local Garda station.

    In all seriousness though, being offended is fine and reasonable response, i just wouldn't be so quick to dump it in there with/as "rape culture"


  • #114
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Uriel. wrote: »
    Are you saying that:

    Not being able to slap someone on the ass is a component in suicide?
    No but feel free to reread my post and try again


  • #115
    Trudiha
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭Trudiha


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    Giving people advice to reduce their chances of being raped is a good thing, you can call that "rape culture" or whatever you want.

    No, to put the responsibility for a sexual assault on the victim is part of rape culture. Three Seasons, I'm going to assume that you're a normal man and like most normal men, have managed never to rape anyone. You've seen women in short skirts, bikinis, perhaps even less. I'm going to assume that you've seen drunk women, women who were asleep, maybe even women who've taken drugs. You've probably seen women alone at night. I'm assuming that despite all of that, you've managed not to rape anyone.

    Why can't you see that not raping someone is normal behaviour and something that we should expect from all men in all circumstances?


  • #116
    Jaxton Stale Lemon
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Jaxton Stale Lemon


    Uriel. wrote: »
    Are you saying that:

    Not being able to slap someone on the ass is a component in suicide?

    Yes. Women not wanting to be assaulted is directly contributing to male suicide.

    Heard it all now

    Also find it bemusing that:
    "Your argument is wrong because you don't know what real rape is like, you're not a victim"
    "I am one"
    "Well then your argument is wrong because you're just messed up"
    has been the progression so far.
    Christ


  • #117
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    No but feel free to reread my post and try again

    well you said there was a time that a slap on the ass was acceptable and then threw it in with suicide?

    Can you explain your view clearer, I just don't see the point behind it - I am not mocking you (yet). Chill.


  • #118
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Yes. Women not wanting to be assaulted is directly contributing to male suicide.

    Heard it all now

    Also find it bemusing that:
    "Your argument is wrong because you don't know what real rape is like, you're not a victim"
    "I am one"
    "Well then your argument is wrong because you're just messed up"
    has been the progession so far.
    Christ
    Interesting. I'd surely like to see the research on that.


  • #119
    Jaxton Stale Lemon
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Jaxton Stale Lemon


    Uriel. wrote: »
    Interesting. I'd surely like to see the research on that.

    I was agreeing with you and being sarcastic...


  • #120
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    B0jangles wrote: »
    1. Most people are raped in their own homes by people they know. Giving advice about not going out after dark/not wearing revealing clothes or high heels etc etc. do little or nothing to reduce the incidence of rape, they put the onus on the potential victim to change their behaviour.

    2. I didn't realise electrical components were conscious, thinking beings acting with intent to cause electrocution.

    Bottom line: Rapists are not a mindless force of nature, they are human beings who choose to rape.

    People are raped and assaulted by strangers, it does happen, there a places I most definitely would not walk through at not as the risk increases of being assaulted. Who said anything about not wearing heels or revealing clothes, that's a narrative in your own head.

    One could say by "not teaching" the manufacturers of electrical components not to make faulty components, this is contributing to "electrocution culture" . The emphasis on advising people how to behave around electrical components is "victim blaming" as they are the victim of shoddy workmanship.


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  • #121
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Trudiha wrote: »
    No, to put the responsibility for a sexual assault on the victim is part of rape culture. Three Seasons, I'm going to assume that you're a normal man and like most normal men, have managed never to rape anyone. You've seen women in short skirts, bikinis, perhaps even less. I'm going to assume that you've seen drunk women, women who were asleep, maybe even women who've taken drugs. You've probably seen women alone at night. I'm assuming that despite all of that, you've managed not to rape anyone.

    Why can't you see that not raping someone is normal behaviour and something that we should expect from all men in all circumstances?
    if someone is raped, 100% of the blame goes to the perpetrator but to deny that by taking certain precautions, a woman can reduce her chances of being raped is silly and irresponsible. its not rape culture, its common sense culture.


  • #122
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I was agreeing with you and being sarcastic...

    I was also being sarcastic too. I just didn't do as good a job :P


  • #123
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Uriel. wrote: »
    well you said there was a time that a slap on the ass was acceptable and then threw it in with suicide?

    Can you explain your view clearer, I just don't see the point behind it - I am not mocking you (yet). Chill.

    i admit i went off on a tangent. I'm saying that changing attitudes to what is acceptable coupled with pressure to be a man, a concept with fluctuating parameters, leads to confusion which may lead to increased risk.of suicide.


  • #124
    IM0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,390 ✭✭✭IM0


    so in essence rape is a myth :confused:


  • #125
    Trudiha
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭Trudiha


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    if someone is raped, 100% of the blame goes to the perpetrator but to deny that by taking certain precautions, a woman can reduce her chances of being raped is silly and irresponsible. its not rape culture, its common sense culture.

    These 'precautions' you talk about, dressing like a nun, not going out alone at night, never having a drink, never talking to men who aren't part of your family are all practised by some women in some Muslim countries. Rape still happens in those countries.

    It's not silly or irresponsible to think that the lives of all women shouldn't be curtailed because a minority of men are rapists, however, suggesting that they should, is blaming the victim.


  • #126
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    People are raped and assaulted by strangers, it does happen, there a places I most definitely would not walk through at not as the risk increases of being assaulted. Who said anything about not wearing heels or revealing clothes, that's a narrative in your own head.

    Those are some of the commonest suggestions made to women by helpful people like yourself on how we can avoid being raped.
    Three Seasons wrote: »

    One could say by "not teaching" the manufacturers of electrical components not to make faulty components, this is contributing to "electrocution culture" . The emphasis on advising people how to behave around electrical components is "victim blaming" as they are the victim of shoddy workmanship.

    You are equating rapists with electricity; that is insane.


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  • #127
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    i admit i went off on a tangent. I'm saying that changing attitudes to what is acceptable coupled with pressure to be a man, a concept with fluctuating parameters, leads to confusion which may lead to increased risk.of suicide.

    That's a whole other thread to be honest.

    But I would have thought that changing attitudes are going in the right direction. Would it not have been the case that 50 years ago (or even 20) it was man up and get on with things, be a real man etc... or more likely, don't show "negative" emotion? Whereas now, although very slowly, attitudes are changing or at least there's a greater awareness to "men's real feelings" and they being ok?


  • #128
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    I can see that the answer to this post is "no, we can't."


  • #129
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    Trudiha wrote: »
    No, to put the responsibility for a sexual assault on the victim is part of rape culture. Three Seasons, I'm going to assume that you're a normal man and like most normal men, have managed never to rape anyone. You've seen women in short skirts, bikinis, perhaps even less. I'm going to assume that you've seen drunk women, women who were asleep, maybe even women who've taken drugs. You've probably seen women alone at night. I'm assuming that despite all of that, you've managed not to rape anyone.

    Why can't you see that not raping someone is normal behaviour and something that we should expect from all men in all circumstances?

    When did I ever say I think rape is normal behaviour?

    We shouldn't expect all men not to rape as there will always be some men who do, we shouldn't expect no one to Ron either, that's why we should lick our front doors.

    There are people who will do horrible things, that's reality and it will never change.

    Basing your actions and behaviours on a dream world is insane, actions and behaviours should be based on reality as it is. It would be fantastic if no one had to worry about being raped, murdered, assaulted, mugged etc . But that is not the work we live in.


  • #130
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    I can see that the answer to this post is "no, we can't."

    58, 60, 69


  • #131
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,455 ✭✭✭tritium


    Trudiha wrote: »
    No, to put the responsibility for a sexual assault on the victim is part of rape culture. Three Seasons, I'm going to assume that you're a normal man and like most normal men, have managed never to rape anyone. You've seen women in short skirts, bikinis, perhaps even less. I'm going to assume that you've seen drunk women, women who were asleep, maybe even women who've taken drugs. You've probably seen women alone at night. I'm assuming that despite all of that, you've managed not to rape anyone.

    Why can't you see that not raping someone is normal behaviour and something that we should expect from all men in all circumstances?

    First off, giving someone skills and insight to protect themselves isn't rape culture, it's common sense- telling someone to be alert for speeding cars isn't the same as blaming them if they get knocked down by one!

    You're second point is frankly patronising to men. I don't know a single man who would claim rape is acceptable. However there's a tendency from some quarters to use the word rape in utterly inappropriate, catch all contexts. You don't get to define something this serious to suit your agenda!


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  • #132
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Uriel. wrote: »
    58, 60, 69

    Incorrect.
    according to you...
    A slap on the ass is sexual assault...leading to.... RAPE.

    I've asked you to show where I said this. You cannot, because I didn't say it.


  • #133
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    Incorrect.



    I've asked you to show where I said this. You cannot, because I didn't say it.

    Incorrect. I did.
    You don't have to say to say. implication. if the implication is wrong due to uncertainty or unclear posting then that's a different matter.


  • #134
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Why does this always happen?

    When someone talks about the relationship between unwanted sexual touching and rape culture they are told that saying such things is trivializing actual rape.
    When the same person then says they themselves have been raped, then the dismissal switches to them being a damaged person who naturally has a skewed attitude to such matters.

    It really is heads I win, tails you lose, isn't it?

    I don't think so.
    All experiences, good and bad change how we view any given situation. If someone was in a bad car crash they might view driving at 60mph as speeding, or if someone's house caught fire they may well view leaving the tv plugged in as dangerously reckless. Another person might do both these things without a seconds thought.
    Surely that's self evident?
    Any sexual violence or harrasment is disgusting, but i'm just not sure that a slap on the ass qualifies as either of those things - unless your view is skewed by something. If it was a repeated thing then yes definitely, but not as an attention grabber in a crowded pub or the likes.
    Sleazy - Yes. Assault - No


  • #135
    IM0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,390 ✭✭✭IM0


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    I can see that the answer to this post is "no, we can't."

    be arsed ;)


  • #136
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    I don't think so.
    All experiences, good and bad change how we view any given situation. If someone was in a bad car crash they might view driving at 60mph as speeding, or if someone's house caught fire they may well view leaving the tv plugged in as dangerously reckless. Another person might do both these things without a seconds thought.
    Surely that's self evident?
    Any sexual violence or harrasment is disgusting, but i'm just not sure that a slap on the ass qualifies as either of those things - unless your view is skewed by something. If it was a repeated thing then yes definitely, but not as an attention grabber in a crowded pub or the likes.
    Sleazy - Yes. Assault - Yes. Sexual Assault - No (?)

    FYP


  • #137
    IM0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,390 ✭✭✭IM0


    Uriel. wrote: »
    58, 60, 69

    hut hut?


  • #138
    wandatowell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,435 ✭✭✭wandatowell


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    You could say the same about women who do it to men. They're just idiots, and gender isn't a factor in their idiocy.

    Totally agree 110%, idiocy isn't gender specific. I only referenced women as I haven't experienced it the other way 'round


  • #139
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Uriel. wrote: »
    Incorrect. I did.
    You don't have to say to say. implication. if the implication is wrong due to uncertainty or unclear posting then that's a different matter.

    This is just nonsense. You, like other posters here, are trying to put words in my mouth that I did not say and belittle me with strawman attitudes that I do not hold. Unfortunately for you all this is a permanent medium that everyone can read. You cannot back up your claim. I suggest you withdraw it.


  • #140
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    IM0 wrote: »
    be arsed ;)

    ...learning what a strawman is and then hunting through my posts desperately trying to find one. :pac:


  • #141
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    This is just nonsense. You, like other posters here, are trying to put words in my mouth that I did not say and belittle me with strawman attitudes that I do not hold. Unfortunately for you all this is a permanent medium that everyone can read. You cannot back up your claim. I suggest you withdraw it.

    Did you claim that ass slapping is sexual assault, and non-recognition of same or the laughing off of same in various contexts is part of rape culture?


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  • #142
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Yes.

    What I didn't say was that slapping someone on the arse leads to rape. The thread is only ten pages long, do try to keep up.


  • #143
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    Sadly, I fear raising the awareness of rape on this thread won't get you much agreement. I wonder if this will get much thanks..

    IMO this is precisely the place to raise awareness of rape culture. It's all well and good discussing it in tLL, but for attitudes to change the discussion needs to be brought to the mainstream. I think that it's something that many men and women, not just rapists, contribute to by their way of thinking, speaking and acting.


  • #144
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    Yes.

    What I didn't say was that slapping someone on the arse leads to rape. The thread is only ten pages long, do try to keep up.

    does rape culture lead to rape? or more rape as the case may be?


  • #145
    Henlars67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    Before we go any further can somebody please define rape culture?


  • #146
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Henlars67 wrote: »
    Before we go any further can somebody please define rape culture?

    see 99 for some of its components


  • #147
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Uriel. wrote: »
    does rape culture lead to rape? or more rape as the case may be?

    Not necessarily. Rape culture is about normalising and accepting misogyny. It's an interesting subject, you should read up on it past the first chapter of a wikipedia page.


  • #148
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Uriel. wrote: »
    does rape culture lead to rape? or more rape as the case may be?

    Scumbags lead to rape, nothing else.


  • #149
    IM0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,390 ✭✭✭IM0


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    Yes.

    What I didn't say was that slapping someone on the arse leads to rape. The thread is only ten pages long, do try to keep up.

    its 15 actually.that explains it, you cant see what has been said...cause you havent actually seen it :pac:


  • #150
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,455 ✭✭✭tritium


    JEsus, how did we get from the ops original sex myth thread to a debate on rape culture. I thought we did that to death in a thread just a short while back. I don't think anyone's opinion is going to have changed in this the umpteenth thread to be manoeuvred in this direction. Isn't there a limit on how often we can go back to the same thing or doe that just apply to certain topics?


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  • #151
    IM0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,390 ✭✭✭IM0


    tritium wrote: »
    JEsus, how did we get from the ops original sex myth thread to a debate on rape culture. I thought we did that to death in a thread just a short while back. I don't think anyone's opinion is going to have changed in this the umpteenth thread to be manoeuvred in this direction. Isn't there a limit on how often we can go back to the same thing or doe that just apply to certain topics?

    It was when someone got a bee in thier arse Im pretty sure


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