What would you like the next referendum to legalise abortion or euthanasia?

frostyjacks · 25-05-2015 6:10pm

folamh wrote: »

Then you ought oppose contraception and male masturbation. Synaptic connections necessary to support consciousness emerge at twenty weeks. An early abortion doesn't kill anyone. Early fetuses aren't even individuals, much less persons.

Life, in my opinion, begins at fertilsation. It may look like a blob under a microscope, but that's how everyone of us started out.

thee glitz · 25-05-2015 6:11pm

Sydney Chilly Magnate wrote: »

Would you not prosecute someone who brought a six year old to UK and murdered them? If not, why not. What's the difference if abortion is murder?
What would be wrong with mandatory pregnancy tests for any woman of childbearing age leaving the country, especially going to Manchester/Liverpool?

I'd hope the UK authorities would investigate and prosecute that.

Would you want to see someone prosecuted for bringing a 6yr old to England? I guess it depends on whether they have the right to do so.

FouxDaFaFa · 25-05-2015 6:11pm

thee glitz wrote: »

Well... they probably should be but each case would be unique. It's good that's legislation to deal with back street abortionists, hopefully that's not an actual thing here.

You only need to look at the amount of women ordering pills online, some from dodgy websites, and taking them unsupervised to understand that it must be a thing. It's only a matter of time until a woman is plastered across the news because she died taking an abortion pill without medical supervision.

As for actual backstreet abortions, think about groups like refugees and asylum seekers who are not allowed to leave the country to go to England. It has to exist.

folamh · 25-05-2015 6:12pm

frostyjacks wrote: »

Life, in my opinion, begins at fertilsation. It may look like a blob under a microscope, but that's how everyone of us started out.

On what grounds do you think that 1) life begins at fertilization and 2) that condition is sufficient to de-legitimize abortion?

cloud493 · 25-05-2015 6:12pm

I think its ridiculous in a 'modern' country in 2015, a woman doesn't have control over her own womb and medical procedures, she has to go to England for it. Abortion isn't murder.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 25-05-2015 6:14pm

thee glitz wrote: »

I'd hope the UK authorities would investigate and prosecute that.

Would you want to see someone prosecuted for bringing a 6yr old to England? I guess it depends on whether they have the right to do so.

So if an Irish woman brought her 6 year old child to England, killed the child, and returned here, you'd think "well that's a matter for England to deal with"?

If you really and truly literally believe that abortion is murder, why would you not want to stop women travelling to get one?

eviltwin · 25-05-2015 6:14pm

frostyjacks wrote: »

Life, in my opinion, begins at fertilsation. It may look like a blob under a microscope, but that's how everyone of us started out.

So how to you feel about all those embryos being destroyed in Irish fertility clinics?

FouxDaFaFa · 25-05-2015 6:14pm

frostyjacks wrote: »

Life, in my opinion, begins at fertilsation. It may look like a blob under a microscope, but that's how everyone of us started out.

So do you think that the fertilised eggs left over from IVF treatments are children that have been murdered?

Pherekydes · 25-05-2015 6:17pm

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Now whose nitpicking!

Mine! But not really nitpicking.

Kells1 · 25-05-2015 6:17pm

"]So do you think that the fertilised eggs left over from IVF treatments are children that have been murdered?[/quote]

Yes.
What are foetuses if they are not people.every single one of us started life as a foetus.

eviltwin · 25-05-2015 6:18pm

Kells1 wrote: »

"]So do you think that the fertilised eggs left over from IVF treatments are children that have been murdered?

Yes.
What are foetuses if they are not people.every single one of us started life as a foetus.[/QUOTE]

So why aren't you outraged this murder is happening here in your own country? Why aren't you trying to have it banned? Why is it that the hate and vitriol is always reserved for women who have abortions, often as a result of difficult situations and not couples who do IVF? I guess a vulnerable women is an easier target to bully

volchitsa · 25-05-2015 6:20pm

frostyjacks wrote: »

I can't think of anything more civilised than giving a voice to children not yet born.

If we're being all-inclusive why stop there? I vote we give a voice to the not-yet-conceived as well.

And what about the unfortunately-deceased? Why should they lose out? Though come to think of it, Sinn Fein have been ahead of their time there, I tell you!

frostyjacks · 25-05-2015 6:22pm

folamh wrote: »

On what grounds do you think that 1) life begins at fertilization and 2) that condition is sufficient to de-legitimize abortion?

1. It's my belief, grounded in science and religion.
2. The unborn have an equal right to life.

sunshine and showers · 25-05-2015 6:23pm

We cannot define life as beginning at fertilisation unless we want to ban the use of IVF. We would have to afford full rights to embryos in a petri-dish, or waiting in a freezer to be used. And we don't.

Kells1 · 25-05-2015 6:23pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Yes.
What are foetuses if they are not people.every single one of us started life as a foetus.

So why aren't you outraged this murder is happening here in your own country?
I am truly dissapointed
Why is it that the hate and vitriol is always reserved for women who have abortions, often as a result of difficult situations and not couples who do IVF? I guess a vulnerable women is an easier target to bully[/quote]
I have no hatred towards women who have abortions only compassion

sunshine and showers · 25-05-2015 6:25pm

Kells1 wrote: »

I have no hatred towards women who have abortions only compassion

Just not enough compassion to let them have an abortion in their own country, for a more affordable price, surrounded by their support network.

Eutow · 25-05-2015 6:26pm

frostyjacks wrote: »

1. It's my belief, grounded in science and religion.
2. The unborn have an equal right to life.

They don't, even in Ireland. It is also impossible to grant equal rights to both.

volchitsa · 25-05-2015 6:27pm

sunshine and showers wrote: »

We cannot define life as beginning at fertilisation unless we want to ban the use of IVF. We would have to afford full rights to embryos in a petri-dish, or waiting in a freezer to be used. And we don't.

There's a simple reason for that of course. Money and power. The true values of the pro-life movement in Ireland.

Women wanting abortions tend to be vulnerable and easy to bully. IVF clinics have clout and won't be ordered around.

FouxDaFaFa · 25-05-2015 6:27pm

Kells1 wrote: »

What are foetuses if they are not people.

They are potential people.

The thing is, people recoil when you speak frankly about early-stage pregnancy because it makes you sound like a grinch. Like, if a woman who is 3/4 weeks pregnant comes up to you and gushes about how she sang to her baby last night and how in love she is with her baby, you'd want to be a real asshole to say "well, your baby can't hear you because it doesn't have ears, a body, a heartbeat, a brain or brainwaves". It makes people happy to project their future hopes and dreams for their child onto what, realistically, is still merely the potential for human life.

It's human instinct and that's fine. But what is not fine is making it so that this foetus, this one-day person all going well, has the same rights as the fully-grown woman carrying it.

frostyjacks · 25-05-2015 6:30pm

volchitsa wrote: »

If we're being all-inclusive why stop there? I vote we give a voice to the not-yet-conceived as well.

And what about the unfortunately-deceased? Why should they lose out? Though come to think of it, Sinn Fein have been ahead of their time there, I tell you!

President McAleese campaigned for a Yes vote last week for unborn children, so they had a right to live as equals in the future. How about they have a right to live full stop.

volchitsa · 25-05-2015 6:32pm

frostyjacks wrote: »

President McAleese campaigned for a Yes vote last week for unborn children, so they had a right to live as equals in the future. How about they have a right to live full stop.

I don't think she meant fetuses, did she? She also meant the unconceived, as I said. Which would make male masturbation murder on an unimaginable scale, by your lights. I hope you don't indulge in it yourself!

frostyjacks · 25-05-2015 6:38pm

volchitsa wrote: »

I don't think she meant fetuses, did she? She also meant the unconceived, as I said. Which would make male masturbation murder on an unimaginable scale, by your lights. I hope you don't indulge in it yourself!

I reckon I would be somewhere between Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin on that scale.

valoren · 25-05-2015 6:38pm

Once you breathe independently for me that's when you are a person and cease to be a fetus.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_to_extrauterine_life

thee glitz · 25-05-2015 6:38pm

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

You only need to look at the amount of women ordering pills online, some from dodgy websites, and taking them unsupervised to understand that it must be a thing. It's only a matter of time until a woman is plastered across the news because she died taking an abortion pill without medical supervision.

I haven't seen that in the news yet, hope I don't. It's an outrageous thing to do.

As for actual backstreet abortions, think about groups like refugees and asylum seekers who are not allowed to leave the country to go to England. It has to exist.

I thought asylum seekers loved having kids here. They should be allowed travel to England if they wish, off they go. Still sad though.

eviltwin · 25-05-2015 6:39pm

thee glitz wrote: »

I haven't seen that in the news yet, hope I don't. It's an outrageous thing to do.

I thought asylum seekers loved having kids here. They should be allowed travel to England if they wish, off they go. Still sad though.

Pro life but only for the white babies :rolleyes:

tipparetops · 25-05-2015 6:41pm

Abortion would be a difficult referendum. It could rip this country apart.
It will take awhile for the place to recover from the last one.

I believe abortion should be legal. People are going to England as it is, if Ireland was to legalize abortion, Ireland could regulate abortion.
Ireland would start with a blank canvas and could put in place abortion law that suits all parties.
A woman seeking an abortion could get proper counselling before the procedure, the final decision being the woman's, but at least she has heard both the negative and positive of having an abortion.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 25-05-2015 6:42pm

thee glitz wrote: »

I haven't seen that in the news yet, hope I don't. It's an outrageous thing to do.

It's a desperate thing that desperate people do. Dozens of them every year, at least. Foetus dead, woman in agony and possibly a lot of danger, and technically liable to be jailed. Yay, pro-life!

I thought asylum seekers loved having kids here. They should be allowed travel to England if they wish, off they go. Still sad though.

"Sad", wow, such compassion. Such empathy for human lives and experiences.

FouxDaFaFa · 25-05-2015 6:49pm

tipparetops wrote: »

Abortion would be a difficult referendum. It could rip this country apart.
It will take awhile for the place to recover from the last one.

I believe abortion should be legal. People are going to England as it is, if Ireland was to legalize abortion, Ireland could regulate abortion.
Ireland would start with a blank canvas and could put in place abortion law that suits all parties.
A woman seeking an abortion could get proper counselling before the procedure, the final decision being the woman's, but at least she has heard both the negative and positive of having an abortion.

I agree.

It would also mean fewer Irish women having later-term abortions, since it can take so long to save up money to travel.

But yes, it would be an incredibly ugly referendum. It would also be a magnet for those who see Ireland as a utopia and who would resist that change with everything they have.

It matters little to them that regardless of whether a referendum passed or not, Irish women would still get abortions. It is happening. So, the least we can do is make sure they are safe and educated and work hard on education programmes and against things like abstinence-only education so that fewer abortions are needed in the first place.

S.O · 25-05-2015 6:51pm

At one time in my early 20s I had a pro choice position, as I am someone who will always listen and hear the other side of the argument after I watched ( The Silent Scream ) + ( Eclipse of reason ) I could no longer in good conscience in anyway support a pro choice stance and changed to a pro life position on the issue of abortion, if any referendum comes in the next few years to remove the 8th amendment, not only will I vote no against it, I will also volunteer some spare time to help out to campaign for a no vote locally.

thee glitz · 25-05-2015 6:53pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Pro life but only for the white babies :rolleyes:

I'm not for preventing anyone going to the England.
It's important that anyone considering such be given the
best support and advice if this looks their best solution.

Kiwi in IE · 25-05-2015 6:56pm

Abortion is an emergency. The fact that a woman cannot get an abortion when a pregnancy poses a risk to her health is barbaric.

It is absurd that it is unavailable, but with the attitudes of some people I'm not sure that it would pass. We probably need another 10 years of 'out with the old, in with the new' voters for it to pass comfortably. In the meantime women will continue to be put in desperate situations.

eviltwin · 25-05-2015 6:56pm

thee glitz wrote: »

I'm not for preventing anyone going to the England.
It's important that anyone considering such be given the
best support and advice if this looks their best solution.

Its funny how you were very anti abortion until FourDaFaFa mention migrant women, you changed your tune pretty sharp then so you're racist now as well?

RobertKK · 25-05-2015 6:58pm

I thought it was ironic that some people including the Labour party went straight from the marriage referendum to repeal the 8th, given some on the Yes side questioned the integrity of No people in regards to children and how much they really cared for children.
Some of the same people now looking for abortion, talking in general and not about anyone here.
I hope we don't have a referendum on abortion, it is a very serious subject, whatever side one is on, both sides with deep held views on the subject and it would be nasty.

Truth is we had enough referendums for a while, the electorate is a bit worn out after the ones we just had, and I can't see us having any more this year or before a general election.
Certainly a contentious referendum is not needed right now.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 25-05-2015 6:58pm

S.O, you might want to google that horseshít before you swallow it.

thee glitz · 25-05-2015 7:00pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Its funny how you were very anti abortion until FourDaFaFa mention migrant women, you changed your tune pretty sharp then so you're racist now as well?

I'm still very anti abortion, it's as selfish an action can be.
I said they should be allowed go to England if they please.
It's sad that anyone would though.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 25-05-2015 7:01pm

thee glitz wrote: »

I'm still very anti abortion, it's as selfish an action can be.
I said they should be allowed go to England if they please.
It's sad that anyone would though.

Once again, if it's MURDER, why should people be allowed to travel to England to MURDER someone?

tipparetops · 25-05-2015 7:02pm

thee glitz wrote: »

I'm still very anti abortion, it's as selfish an action can be.
I said they should be allowed go to England if they please.
It's sad that anyone would though.

Would you have same stance with assisted suicide.

Kiwi in IE · 25-05-2015 7:03pm

RobertKK wrote: »

I thought it was ironic that some people including the Labour party went straight from the marriage referendum to repeal the 8th, given some on the Yes side questioned the integrity of No people in regards to children and how much they really cared for children.
Some of the same people now looking for abortion, talking in general and not about anyone here.
I hope we don't have a referendum on abortion, it is a very serious subject, whatever side one is on, both sides with deep held views on the subject and it would be nasty.

Truth is we had enough referendums for a while, the electorate is a bit worn out after the ones we just had, and I can't see us having any more this year or before a general election.
Certainly a contentious referendum is not needed right now.

Nobody is talking about children Robert. This discussion is about aborting foetuses not children.

Terrlock · 25-05-2015 7:03pm

I wonder how many people that are alive today promoting abortion wouldn't be if we had abortion in Ireland before they were born.

World death statistics - so far there has been 22,747,865 deaths this year. This includes all type of deaths from war to diseases. However it does not include abortion.

The biggest killer in the world at the moment is Coronary Heart Disease - 7,253,824 people have died from this worldwide so far this year.

However Abortion dwarfs this - there has been 16,242,715 abortions so far this year.

That is a lot of people who would have previously been born that now are not.

In my view this is nothing more then a tool for the elite for population control.

The number of abortions so far in the USA this year are 437,505 and only 4,208 were due to rape.

RayM wrote: »

Our abortion laws should be brought in line with the rest of the civilised, secular world.

That's an appalling statistic and certainly not the sign of a more civilized society.

thee glitz · 25-05-2015 7:03pm

Sydney Chilly Magnate wrote: »

Once again, if it's MURDER, why should people be allowed to travel to England to MURDER someone?

Yep, it's murder. Travelling however isn't. Maybe you're right though... maybe they shouldn't be allowed.

Riverireland · 25-05-2015 7:03pm

I won't be needing a termination but fully believe in the right to choose, it's not like anyone sets out to be in that position.

Euthanasia I believe should also be a personal choice, and I would like that choice should I ever feel I require it!

Can't see any government tackling these but they do need to be legalised imo.

thee glitz · 25-05-2015 7:06pm

tipparetops wrote: »

Would you have same stance with assisted suicide.

As above, yes, but they are completely different actions.

Kiwi in IE · 25-05-2015 7:06pm

thee glitz wrote: »

Yep, it's murder. Travelling however isn't. Maybe you're right though... maybe they shouldn't be allowed.

Mandatory pregnancy tests at the departures gate?

Kells1 · 25-05-2015 7:07pm

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Abortion is an emergency. The fact that a woman cannot get an abortion when a pregnancy poses a risk to her health is barbaric.

You can butter it up all you like nevertheless the fact is abortion is the killing of an innocent child period. Whatever reason you have convinced yourself that the killing of this child is ok it is extremely barbaric to do so..and the actual techniques used to kill the child are also barbaric. try google for an in depth description of the act

Riverireland · 25-05-2015 7:07pm

Terrlock wrote: »

I wonder how many people that are alive today promoting abortion wouldn't be if we had abortion in Ireland before they were born.

World death statistics - so far there has been 22,747,865 deaths this year. This includes all type of deaths from war to diseases. However it does not include abortion.

The biggest killer in the world at the moment is Coronary Heart Disease - 7,253,824 people have died from this worldwide so far this year.

However Abortion dwarfs this - there has been 16,242,715 abortions so far this year.

That is a lot of people who would have previously been born that now are not.

In my view this is nothing more then a tool for the elite for population control.

The number of abortions so far in the USA this year are 437,505 and only 4,208 were due to rape.

That's an appalling statistic and certainly not the sign of a more civilized society.

It's a given that abortion is not a nice thing to have to do! But seriously, who would want to be an unwanted baby? You have got to leave grown adults make decisions for themselves in matters that do not effect you!

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 25-05-2015 7:08pm

Kells1 wrote: »

You can butter it up all you like nevertheless the fact is abortion is the killing of an innocent child period. Whatever reason you have convinced yourself that the killing of this child is ok it is extremely barbaric to do so..and the actual techniques used to kill the child are also barbaric. try google for an in depth description of the act

I know, swallowing pills, it's terrible.

thee glitz · 25-05-2015 7:09pm

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Mandatory pregnancy tests at the departures gate?

No, nothing wrong with travelling, not doing anything illegal.

thee glitz · 25-05-2015 7:11pm

Riverireland wrote: »

But seriously, who would want to be an unwanted baby?

Have you ever met someone who's adopted?

S.O · 25-05-2015 7:11pm

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Abortion is an emergency. The fact that a woman cannot get an abortion when a pregnancy poses a risk to her health is barbaric.

It is absurd that it is unavailable, but with the attitudes of some people I'm not sure that it would pass. We probably need another 10 years of 'out with the old, in with the new' voters for it to pass comfortably. In the meantime women will continue to be put in desperate situations.

If its a crisis pregnancy with a threat to the life of the woman that is one thing, abortion on request like as in the UK is another different category completely, I would point peoples attention to one news report a few years ago.

Three babies aborted every day due to Down's syndrome

Three babies are being aborted every day due to Down's syndrome, according to a study which shows the number of terminations has more than trebled in the last 20 years.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/6440705/Three-babies-aborted-every-day-due-to-Downs-syndrome.html

Abortion on request leads to real life stories as such the news article I posted, another issue with abortion on request being legalised, what if a couple want to have a baby boy or baby girl as a preference and then upon pregnancy scan its a baby girl and decide we would prefer a baby boy and seek an abortion based on the babys gender as which happens in some countries over in the far east.

fiachr_a · 25-05-2015 7:11pm

Constitutional claim over Northern Ireland again referendum should be the next one.

What would you like the next referendum to legalise abortion or euthanasia?

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