Luas Red Line security issues mega thread (read mod warming in post #1)

LXFlyer · 29-03-2015 7:40am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So then the nature of it has to change. It needs to be segregated.

What disappoints me a lot is that the red line gives the lie to those that said Dublin is a modern european city compatible with hop on/hop off tram systems - this is clearly not the case.

The red line is only the start. Wait till the luas cross city line is running. It's going to get worse but the powers that be don't seem to care.

The Luas imo was a mistake for a city that has not evolved to that level. It's as simple as that.

Give us a break with the scaremongering about the Green line extension.

The people that are causing trouble on the red line are making exactly the same trips that they always did on the buses - the old 51b/51c, 77, 78a or 79 by and large. In general they're not going to places that they didn't before. They just switched from the buses to the trams.

There is nothing like the same level of anti-social behaviour on the bus routes that serve Phibsborough and Cabra as there was on the bus routes listed above, which tends to suggest that this view is nothing more than scaremongering.

How Strange · 29-03-2015 7:49am

One of the big problems for the red line in the city centre is that all the addicts travel from all over the country to Dublin for methadone treatment and they're concentrated ins very small area. The luas is so easy to get on without a ticket and the security guards have very little power to eject someone causing anti social behaviour or who doesn't have a ticket if they don't leave the tram willingly. I've seen some of them goad the guards in the hope they'll place a hand on them and then it's assault. I saw one woman and her 9 year old try to claim a guard man handled her daughter. The daughter was in on the trick too but they eventually left the tram.

I use the 79 every so often and logistically there's no way those causing anti social behaviour on the bus transferred to the luas. They are two completely different routes. Also the anti social behaviour on 79/a is rarely as bad as the luas and in 10 years I've never been aware of any service curtailments because of anti social bahaviour. The worst you come across for the most part is people smoking cigarettes upstairs.

Kermit.de.frog · 30-03-2015 4:00am

lxflyer wrote: »

Give us a break with the scaremongering about the Green line extension.

The people that are causing trouble on the red line are making exactly the same trips that they always did on the buses - the old 51b/51c, 77, 78a or 79 by and large. In general they're not going to places that they didn't before. They just switched from the buses to the trams.

There is nothing like the same level of anti-social behaviour on the bus routes that serve Phibsborough and Cabra as there was on the bus routes listed above, which tends to suggest that this view is nothing more than scaremongering.

I maintain Dublin has not evolved to having open transport systems like the Luas. We don't have a proper police force and we don't have proper planning. No argument otherwise will change this fact.

The red line is the biggest mistake ever made in the city. It is a disaster for public safety, it's a disaster for drug abuse and it a disaster for tourism. The question is what is going to be done about it? - NOTHING. Because no one cares.

magentis · 30-03-2015 4:26am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I maintain Dublin has not evolved to having open transport systems like the Luas. We don't have a proper police force and we don't have proper planning. No argument otherwise will change this fact.

The red line is the biggest mistake ever made in the city. It is a disaster for public safety, it's a disaster for drug abuse and it a disaster for tourism. The question is what is going to be done about it? - NOTHING. Because no one cares.

I lived in citywest up to 8 months ago.
Its really not as bad as you are making out.

monument · 30-03-2015 1:07pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The red line is the biggest mistake ever made in the city. It is a disaster for public safety, it's a disaster for drug abuse and it a disaster for tourism. The question is what is going to be done about it? - NOTHING. Because no one cares.

Yet based on passanger numbers per km, the red line could well be the most successful public transport route in the country.

The city centre section take alone is hands down the most successfully by passanger numbers per km.

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2015 1:18pm

monument wrote: »

Yet based on passanger numbers per km, the red line could well be the most successful public transport route in the country.

The city centre section take alone is hands down the most successfully by passanger numbers per km.

how about per PAYING passenger numbers?

stehyl15 · 30-03-2015 1:25pm

As ive said on a previous thread i commonly see security personal wasted on the green line particularly at balally why are they on the green when theres far more trouble on the red makes no sense

Aard · 30-03-2015 3:26pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The red line is the biggest mistake ever made in the city. It is a disaster for public safety, it's a disaster for drug abuse and it a disaster for tourism. The question is what is going to be done about it? - NOTHING. Because no one cares.

The thousands of people living along the Red line would disagree with you. Many would say that in fact it is the best thing ever to have happened in the city. Disaster for tourism? You having a laugh? The Red line brings tourists between the major rail/bus termini of the country, allowing tourists to travel cheaply (i.e. sans taxi) to get around the rest of the country. The Zoo and the Royal Hospital would beg to differ. The Convention Centre and functions in the Gibson could be seen as a form of tourism. The entire north inner city is now a viable tourist destination due largely to the ease of movement facilitated by the Red line.

Your reasoning is clouded by subjectivity.

Kermit.de.frog · 01-04-2015 3:24am

Aard wrote: »

The Red line brings tourists between the major rail/bus termini of the country

What a beautiful image and introduction to Dublin. Junkies, scumbags, feral youth...amongst the normal people going about their business of course. Suffice to say the proportion of abnormal and intimidatory to normal seems very acute on the red line compared to what you would see in other european cities on a link between main termini.

You can not the defend it. It's a simple disregard for ordinary people, a lack of proper policing (and justice system for that matter) and a delinquent planning system that has the red line the way it is.

I want to ask you one question - do you think it is acceptable to have an open line like this go past courts where some individuals getting on this tram have more than 100 convictions for example? Do you not see the potential implications there? Now that has less to do with the luas and more to do with the justice system but I say again this line was planned to go from some of Dublin's most disadvantaged and prone to anti social behaviour areas by the courts and in to meth clinic central.

Do you not see why this is a problem? Never mind more security and all that - do you not think that this was a silly and disasterous route to proceed with? What we see now was always coming. And the cross city line will make it worse. You might not believe me yet just as if you would have disregarded my concerns about the red line prior to opening but you will come around soon enough once it is open!

Aard · 01-04-2015 10:51am

You and I clearly have had very different experiences of the Red Line. How many times a week do you use it?

OldNotWIse · 01-04-2015 10:55am

monument wrote: »

Yet based on passanger numbers per km, the red line could well be the most successful public transport route in the country.

The city centre section take alone is hands down the most successfully by passanger numbers per km.

If everyone paid maybe....

Aard · 01-04-2015 12:14pm

Passenger numbers are higher on the red line, but journey distances are higher on the green line. This results in passenger-kms being about equal over both lines.

Banjoxed · 01-04-2015 7:30pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I maintain Dublin has not evolved to having open transport systems like the Luas. We don't have a proper police force and we don't have proper planning. No argument otherwise will change this fact.

The red line is the biggest mistake ever made in the city. It is a disaster for public safety, it's a disaster for drug abuse and it a disaster for tourism. The question is what is going to be done about it? - NOTHING. Because no one cares.

Isn't it odd that for the thirty years prior to the Luas Red Line bus route curtailments in and around Tallaght were commonplace, in fact so common that it was rarely if ever commented on. It does not seem to have occurred to Official Ireland that actually tackling anti social behaviour and its causes, poverty, machismo culture and drug and alcohol abuse was worth doing at all.

Kermit de Frog's view, that investing in the transport infrastructure was a mistake and that "nice" people shouldn't have to see the Indians off their Reservation, won't solve a damn thing. It is however remarkably revealing of much of our administrative masters' hand washing of any responsibility to our wider society.

Anti social behaviour has causes and has effects. Any solution needs to tackle both. This means that solicitors making excuses for blackguarding behaviour leading to the Probation act has to stop, and replaced with restorative justice; and adequate prison sentencing where this proves ineffective. The causes - drug abuse, alcoholism and crime must be tackled at root and provide meaningful education and training to everyone to give all our young people access to work according to their ability, and access to the trades and professions is vital.

We also need effective and visible policing in all our public spaces to deter and stop anti social behaviour in its tracks.

None of this will be cheap, and certainly won't appeal to those who don't want the Indians out of the Reservation. However, we have attempted to run a modern state on the cheap in so many ways. To suggest abandoning public infrastructure is risible but not surprising knowing the laissez-faire mentality of many here. Not wanting to solve the real problem is grossly negligent.

monument · 01-04-2015 8:04pm

Undertook a few Luas trips in the last week -- including between the main train stations and a trip out to the Red Cow area. No anti-social behavior to note.

Glad to have had the red line, the options before it got those trips were unreliable and less frequent.

anncoates · 01-04-2015 8:12pm

Have traveled the red line on a regular and extensive basis (as in nearly the entire route) and to say it's a mistake is a bit hysterical. It's a great service but does have anti social issues that need to be addressed. Not anti social issues to the extent of it being as dangerous as people are claiming or a disaster, but issues nonetheless.

stehyl15 · 05-04-2015 11:17pm

Just heard there tonight that two security men were stabbed on the green line at Milltown whilst trying to break up a fight between a gang of youths but on the green line really

punisher5112 · 05-04-2015 11:20pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Just heard there tonight that two security men were stabbed on the green line at Milltown whilst trying to break up a fight between a gang of youths but on the green line really

Has to be fake there is no security on the green line.

But them security guys are paid way too much.

n97 mini · 05-04-2015 11:26pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

But them security guys are paid way too much.

But you said on the other thread workers should unite etc

stehyl15 · 05-04-2015 11:27pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Has to be fake there is no security on the green line.

No ive seen quite a bit of security around balally on weekend particulary around balally i personally think its a waste of resources but sure veoila are paying for them

MJohnston · 05-04-2015 11:53pm

Banjoxed really said it all best imo, I don't really think theres much up for debate in that. One can only hope that this sorry incident can be used to actually effect some real change that can bring about a transport police with real power - it's clear that anyone causing trouble knows exactly the limits of STT's powers, and are willing to abuse that. Short of all that, I dunno....Batman?

punisher5112 · 05-04-2015 11:58pm

n97 mini wrote: »

But you said on the other thread workers should unite etc

You didn't cop I was been sarcastic right......

They are not paid enough.

stehyl15 · 06-04-2015 12:28am

punisher5112 wrote: »

They are not paid enough.

I wonder do they have much job security get the pun but seriously i do agree with on that one maybe not on the db but for quite a dangerous job they should probably be paid a decent bit better

KCAccidental · 06-04-2015 4:04pm

Time to install pay barriers on luas stops outside the city centre, perhaps?

Aard · 06-04-2015 5:14pm

Barriers? To what end?

foggy_lad · 06-04-2015 6:17pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

Time to install pay barriers on luas stops outside the city centre, perhaps?

http://i.imgur.com/Qel2KkJl.jpg

How would those work when the troublemakers just get on at the next stop or just jump the barriers? The issue is not that they are there, it is that nothing is ever done to stop them! they don't get punished for their many many criminal and anti-social actions so have no incentive to improve themselves.

stehyl15 · 06-04-2015 6:48pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

Time to install pay barriers on luas stops outside the city centre, perhaps?

Might be a problem at some of the city centre stop which have public access

MJohnston · 06-04-2015 6:57pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Might be a problem at some of the city centre stop which have public access

It would be potentially impossible at Jervis at the very least

KCAccidental · 06-04-2015 7:43pm

I said outside the city centre, it wouldn't be feasible for jervis, smithfield or abbey street. You could get away with not having them in zone 1 for instance.

In favour, it creates a well lit and safe sterile space that can be easily monitored by CCTV. If you link the luas doors to doors at the stop it would be impossible for someone to skip the barriers via the tracks. When the free travel pass is eventually converted to smartcard it will be easier for disabled customers to tag on etc. Some of the stops on the green line like Ranelagh and Balally could easily install barriers as they are away from surface pedestrian level.

for me, it would be perfect for the quieter outlying stations in tallaght and citywest, which can attract an element of anti-social behaviour. I know what I would prefer in broombridge!

The downside, the cost of building and maintaining the stops. Although that might be offset by the savings you'd make not creating a transport police, which is the only other viable option at this point.

Aard · 06-04-2015 8:00pm

Transport systems worldwide are moving towards barrier-free access.

MJohnston · 06-04-2015 8:05pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

I said outside the city centre, it wouldn't be feasible for jervis, smithfield or abbey street. You could get away with not having them in zone 1 for instance.

That would make it completely pointless imo, but regardless, it'd be a fairly ineffectual approach anyway - if certain groups aren't afraid of intimidating people, or actually attacking people, they're not going to be afraid of fare evasion or hopping barriers. That's before you consider the many transit systems around the world with barriers and plenty of ASB

KCAccidental · 06-04-2015 8:12pm

wouldn't be particularly pointless if you keep barrier free within zone 1. Fair enough people could fare evade in that zone, but if they have to tag off to get out of the stops in zone 2-5, it would have an impact.

Personally, I prefer barrier free alright. Much more accommodating.

stehyl15 · 07-04-2015 1:29am

It would be good though for the amount of people (including myself) who forget to tag off their leap cards but to install a shelter like that would be expensive and the original cost may outweigh the loses to fare evaders

stehyl15 · 07-04-2015 1:33am

KCAccidental wrote: »

I said outside the city centre, it wouldn't be feasible for jervis, smithfield or abbey street. You could get away with not having them in zone 1 for instance.

Apologies I misread got distracted looking at the pic but this could also be a good idea if brt does come along

stehyl15 · 08-04-2015 1:25am

KCAccidental wrote: »

Some of the stops on the green line like Ranelagh and Balally could easily install barriers as they are away from surface pedestrian level.

But Balally also has a convience store and a few other shops

Aard · 08-04-2015 2:44am

Barriers on the Luas are never going to happen. Suggesting installing them is a reactionary and simple response.

Red Alert · 10-04-2015 11:33pm

I personally think a co-ordinated response with much more security officers is required. The lads they have at the moment are good at what they do, but they need much more of them. Now, if the gardai in these areas could revert back to lugs brannigan we could get a real clean-up going.

mikemac1 · 11-04-2015 7:57am

When it comes to drinking, smoking & fighting I find Dublin Bus far worse than the Red line.

But then I get the 40 which replaced the 78A. :P New route number, same locals

Earlier this week the 38 was suspended in Corduff near Blanchardstown for the evening services. Sunny weather, kids out and the bus got bricked

But it's the Luas which gets all the attention in the forum, both green and red

my friend · 11-04-2015 8:13am

frankoreagan wrote: »

That's it pretty much. Was far easier to ignore the problem when it was confined to the routes just serving poorer areas. Once it worries middle class folk and tourists it's a crisis and something must be done!

No, 'poorer areas' turn a blind eye to anti social behaviour don't knock others for not tolerating crap.

pappe · 14-04-2015 7:17pm

I am taking Red Luas since the Saggart line has been opened on a daily basis (which is a few years now) and it has been always very problematic and it is slowly getting worse.
To be completely honest, in the morning the journey has always been safe and pleasant as well, but there is not a single time in my life that I had a journey back home in the afternoon/evening which was pleasant, and it was often unsafe.
I experienced and witnessed most of situations I read in previous comments and it was frightening at times, especially when standing/sitting at the bottom of luas.

I often complained with luas customer care, and I described in all details (time, luas number, stop name) situations I witnessed where passengers have been badly injured or intimidated in a physical way. I used to email them when I felt it was necessary for them to review their CCTV footage because of violent actions. I used to receive standard emails as answers and I want to report an example (within quotes below):

"There are times when a standard fare notice (SFN) is not the solution to the problem. On this occasion these passengers were ejected from the Luas as it was felt this was the best way to deal with the issue. Once ejected they were monitored by CCTV and announcements were made to the stop asking that they leave the infrastructure.

When necessary the Gardai are called. I would like to assure you that we take public order issues very seriously. Luas attends court on a monthly basis for prosecutions for both fare evasion and public order offenses."

In the case above the antisocial people were actually able to step out (after a physical abuse of a passenger ) and step in at next. I was at the stop. No announcement whatsoever. No Gardai.

Eventually I was asked if I wish to talk with some Luas managers because of my frequent emails, and I accepted. I had an hour meeting with two Luas managers. I was told of some solutions they put in place but I have never seen them. To make an example I was told at the meeting that since several months there are ticket inspectors not dressing yellow vests that look like normal passengers. However I always see the same ones with yellow vest even now...not a single time I met them. Therefore I don't really believe to any single point I was told at the meeting.
Also, they strongly believe that Luas is very safe, that vast majority of customers are very happy. I think they felt I was greatly exaggerating.

After years of trying to help luas stuff and spending hours of my time in providing them with information I eventually have an answer: Luas is hopeless, there is no point in complaining whatsoever, safety will never improve. But to me , they fail the top 1 passenger charter which is in their Website and nailed behind every luas driver's cabine: "1. Provide you with a safe and comfortable tram journey.".

syklops · 14-04-2015 7:31pm

Eventually I was asked if I wish to talk with some Luas managers because of my frequent emails, and I accepted. I had an hour meeting with two Luas managers. I was told of some solutions they put in place but I have never seen them. To make an example I was told at the meeting that since several months there are ticket inspectors not dressing yellow vests that look like normal passengers. However I always see the same ones with yellow vest even now...not a single time I met them. Therefore I don't really believe to any single point I was told at the meeting.

I have seen plain clothes ticket inspectors, however, that was on the usually quiet and safe Gree line.

21-04-2015 1:10am

I heard this as a topic on Joe Duffy today.

Not sure how much it was covered but there was at least one caller on.

That show is probably not indicative of modern Ireland and they've had some embarrassing topics in recent times(MMA being one) but it has the ear of the government when it comes to issues(was the cause of head shops closing) so I think its only positive something like this was highlighted as it seems a pressing issue.

feargale · 21-04-2015 1:41am

I use the Red Line from time to time, but only in daytime and only between Heuston and city centre and have never encountered serious problems. Do most or all of these incidents occur at night?

Captain Chaos · 21-04-2015 2:36am

feargale wrote: »

I use the Red Line from time to time, but only in daytime and only between Heuston and city centre and have never encountered serious problems. Do most or all of these incidents occur at night?

No, most is in the late afternoon/evening. Once I was on a Luas at 7am and two guys just released from Store Street police station got on, told eveyone they were just released from the cells, demanded seats so they could sleep and the both woke up and started fighting each other over what they told the gards. It was proper punching and kicking with people doing their best to get out of the way.

The Luas driver stopped the tram as the fight got out of had but would not release the doors and people were screaming to get out. Within minutes two garda vans pulled up in front and behind the tram and they surrounded all the doors, the driver released the doors and the gards dragged the two scum bags off. This all happened before the Jervice stop. That was the worst I have ever witnessed.

Other than that I get the aggressive junkie begging every morning and afternoon and they will sit beside you and keep hounding you till you get up and move. Some even follow people around the tram begging for money strung out of their heads. It's getting worse by the month.

Aard · 21-04-2015 2:39am

I've never encountered people begging and I've gotten the Luas at all hours of the day in the city centre.

Rakish Paddy · 21-04-2015 9:48am

Aard wrote: »

I've never encountered people begging and I've gotten the Luas at all hours of the day in the city centre.

I usually encounter more begging at the ticket machines rather than the trams themselves. Abbey St. and Jervis stops are particularly bad, but I've encountered begging more than once at Smithfield, Museum and Heuston stops too.

Aard · 21-04-2015 10:09am

Come to think of it I have seen begging at Heuston in the same manner as Stephen's Green. I wouldn't describe it as particularly bothersome nor out of the ordinary for a city's main transport points. And certainly not isolated to the Red line.

Roosterreid · 21-04-2015 11:24am

I've experienced begging, but mainly during the quieter periods... Junkies approaching me from as early as 7:00am right through to the later hours (rush hour isn't such an issue) on the Luas with their cap in hand. To be honest, I have found them pretty harmless for the most part...

The bigger issue for me is the gangs of teenagers that frequent the Red Line... This is particularly prevalent from the Red Cow out to Saggart; most of them get on or off in and around Fettercairn. I have seen them fighting, threaten other passengers, pull out knives and generally act in an intimidating manner. I pay for an annual tax saver ticket but have found myself finding excuses to use the Luas less and less as I don't feel safe.

I believe that it's not a matter of 'if' but 'when' something will happen to me on this service.

MrStuffins · 21-04-2015 11:45am

Aard wrote: »

I've never encountered people begging and I've gotten the Luas at all hours of the day in the city centre.

There's begging everywhere all over the city but I was very surprised last week when I got on the Luas after work (around 6pm) and a junkie got on and was going from person to person begging.

This was at Stephens Green on the Green line.

Uno my Uno. · 21-04-2015 11:58am

I'm about to get on the Red line at Manor Square headed into town, I'll let you know if there is anything kicks off. In the City centre usually all I see though are the various street drinkers greeting each other and trading stories, its a bit like a social event for them sometimes.

Rakish Paddy · 21-04-2015 1:35pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

There's begging everywhere all over the city but I was very surprised last week when I got on the Luas after work (around 6pm) and a junkie got on and was going from person to person begging.

This was at Stephens Green on the Green line.

Ah, he was obviously so out of it that he got on the wrong Luas line entirely. Probably thought he was on Abbey St.

Luas Red Line security issues mega thread (read mod warming in post #1)

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