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Engineering / teaching maths

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    #62
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,393 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Annoyed83, I appreciate your comments and indeed you are correct, every teacher should have a good knowledge of their subject area otherwise they won't teach it right. Though I think my comments are misinterpreted regarding the pram, I don't think any of ye here are being childish, indeed I think ye are being very hard done by especially anyone who got accepted on the Dip but not accepted by TC. Its the Engineers of Ireland I find someone what childish at moment because it seems (and again, its the perception I get) that the assoc are having grieveances when jobs in other areas are disappearing and also instead of saying the lack of "qualified" teachers of maths out there, they should be going straight for the juggler regardnig the qualified engineers are not being accepted. Personally, I feel the engineers of ireland assoc is agrieved becasue they didn't have much input into Project Maths (due possibly to the fact that engineers were very busy in other areas in the boom as was other professions) but this is not a forum as to the merits of any particular organisation and don't want this thread to turn into an after hours type where we all give out about associations. However, I don't feel you or any other teacher here is being childish.
    Lastly, no school can have business teaching business etc etc. Imagine if you could only teach chemistry? or applied maths? We all get given other subjects to make up the hours and maths if one of those subjects along with cspe, sphe etc. If i was Principal in the morning, I know my hands would be tied and idealism would go out the window.


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    #63
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    Derek

    I did some scouting around on the TC website and found at
    www.teachingcouncil.ie » Registration » Introduction to Registration
    a document called Registration_Regulations_56873374._resigned_by_Minister_18_Nov_2009pdf.pdf

    On pages 14,15 and 16 where the regulations for post primary teaching are spelled out, it states that an acceptable qualification for registration is one which was previously recognised by the Minister or the Registration Council if it was obtained or started prior to the passing of these regulations.

    ( I copied the text in the strange font below from the top of page 16 of that document )

    My reading of this is that TC could accept degrees obtained in 2009 or earlier, or even started in 2009 or earlier, but are choosing not to.

    Did this come up in any of the discussion you had with them ?

    M



    A quali

    fication or qualifications other than those set forth in 1 or 2 above which, in the opinion of the Teaching Council, is/are of an equivalent standard to that required




    at 1 or 2 above and is suf

    ficient for registration, including qualifi cations previously recognised by the Minister for Education and Science or by the Registration




    Council for the purposes of teaching in a post-primary school per the circulars of the Department of Education and Science provided that the quali

    fication was obtained (or at least the applicant had commenced the course) prior to the passing of these Regulations.



    Derek M wrote: »
    H

    I fought with the TC long and hard over this. I was onto the ASTI, the applied mathematical teachers association, my department here at Uni and the Dean of Engineering here at NUIG. Nothing helped. Maybe I should have went further (Batt O'Keefe when he was minister or something or the media) but to be honest the process was so drawn out that I felt I needed to rectify the situation for myself as soon as possible. I had a part-time job offer and you need TC registration to be correctly employed.

    AT the end of the day the TC has the last word, the government has passed on all responsibility with teacher registration to them. They say who has the correct subjects and to what level. They look at things in black and white and obviously do not understand the content of some of the degrees coming out of the uni's. They told me that they were going to take the Eng degrees off the approvals list but they didn't.

    To get approval your degree needs to be on the list and must satisfy individual subject criteria i.e. that mathematics is major subject (30%) of you degree. They argue that we do not have the correct mathematics to satisfy this requirement. It's not true and I tried to prove them otherwise through their appeals system but failed.

    I agree that the TC needs to be forced on this issue; it is affecting too many people.


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    #64
    clartharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    I obtained my qualification before the TC even existed. I had a sudden flash of hope there, but they still cover themselves with this "in the opinion of the Teaching Council" loophole. A slippery bunch.

    I had never heard of this before, but I did hear the other day that the "general requirements" document (i.e. the one that lists our degrees) is a direct hand-over from the old Registration Council, whereas the "special requirements" document is the design of the TC.


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    #65
    Derek M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭Derek M


    Hi Millix,

    I had argued this with the TC but got nowhere. Clartharlear is correct; they seem to have themselves covered with the 'in the opinion of' comment.

    I argued that my qualification had always been accepted by the department of education. Their basically said that they were in charge now and that they don't recognise it.

    In my opinion, some of the staff in the TC are just pen pushers that don't fully understand/care about the content of degrees. Engineering seems to be one of the degrees that have been caught up in the transfer from the department.

    The Autoquals (list of qualified degrees) and the specific subject requirements just don't match. I told the TC council this over two years ago but they can’t be bothered to change it.

    It's too late for me, but I believe Engineering Ireland and the TC will come to some arrangement (when the TC actually decide what it is they require) and either the TC will ease up or the universities will change subjects titles/content.

    Ironically I believe that a BE from DIT is accepted because they list maths as a subject in their third year.


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    #66
    kennan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭kennan


    It seems as I am a bit late in asking this question, but will the TC reply with an additional requirement specified?
    I have just posted off my quals for their assessment, and having seen all the above posts, I believe that I will get a similar reply, but will they tell me what I would require (additional qualifications) to obtain their approval as recognised by the TC..


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    #67
    kennan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭kennan


    I have also spent the past 4 months trying to contact the Universities and get the detail required by the TC, but the Universities are having major problems getting anything, I did receive sample course guides, but none of them are specific to the course I did.
    I rang the TC and explained this situation, their reply was to submit what I had and they would review it.
    Has anybody had a similar issue with gathering their course details from the Universities?


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    #68
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    Good question - does one size fit all for engineers to "address shortfalls on maths" as perceived by TC, or does everyone get a custom recipe ? is there a distance learning / open university type solution ? what are the specific shortfalls that they have identified ?

    Derek - could you comment on the modules you were advised to take - was this something you proposed to the TC to see if it was acceptable or did they prescribe the course ?

    M
    kennan wrote: »
    It seems as I am a bit late in asking this question, but will the TC reply with an additional requirement specified?
    I have just posted off my quals for their assessment, and having seen all the above posts, I believe that I will get a similar reply, but will they tell me what I would require (additional qualifications) to obtain their approval as recognised by the TC..


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    #69
    Derek M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭Derek M


    Kenna/Millix,

    I had similar problems when it came to gathering information on the modules I was challenging. In the end I had to contact individual lecturers, dig up old notes and get what I could from the university yearly calenders. The calendars contain an overview of each subject. I submitted lectures, exam papers and exam paper solution to try to highlight to presence of mathematics but it didn't work.

    The TC do recommend further study but it is a little open. In my case the stated that I had to 'undertake one further year of study. leading to a third-level qualification in mathematics'. Some modules were listed but nothing concise. In the end I contacted the Maths department in NUIG and they suggested a program I could join in final year. The TC were agreeable to this.

    In general each applicate will be assessed individually depending on their particular modules. Bear in mind it costs a few hindred euro to get the assessment! General degrees will only be assessed as a whole if the university officially puts the program forward for assessment.


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    #70
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    Derek

    is there a course code or module numbers or something like that from the NUIG webpage that you could share with us so that we could see what might need to be done, if the TC is not to be swayed by IEI or any other influence.

    Thanks, M
    Derek M wrote: »
    Kenna/Millix,

    I had similar problems when it came to gathering information on the modules I was challenging. In the end I had to contact individual lecturers, dig up old notes and get what I could from the university yearly calenders. The calendars contain an overview of each subject. I submitted lectures, exam papers and exam paper solution to try to highlight to presence of mathematics but it didn't work.

    The TC do recommend further study but it is a little open. In my case the stated that I had to 'undertake one further year of study. leading to a third-level qualification in mathematics'. Some modules were listed but nothing concise. In the end I contacted the Maths department in NUIG and they suggested a program I could join in final year. The TC were agreeable to this.

    In general each applicate will be assessed individually depending on their particular modules. Bear in mind it costs a few hindred euro to get the assessment! General degrees will only be assessed as a whole if the university officially puts the program forward for assessment.


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    #71
    guysmiley
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭guysmiley


    I did an electronic eng degree which is recognised by the TC for computer studies and applied maths. But I was exempted from years 1 and 2 of this degree as I did a diploma beforehand. The TC advised me to submitt my whole academic record for assessment as I didn't do the full recognised degree and as it stands I am not eligable for anything. I also have a taught masters.
    So I spent a fortune and am getting it all assessed for maths, applied maths, computers, and physics. I see that some engineering degrees also have physics on the list. I see that someone mentioned sending in exam papers which I would have done if I thought of this. But anyway I guess I will hear in the next few weeks. Anyone any predictions at to what they will recommend ?
    I actually got offered the PGDE in UCD for this coming September but not in a position to take this at the moment regardless of the outcome from the TC.


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    #72
    pathway33
    Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    With the junior and leaving cert maths syllabi changing in september will the teaching council then have a different set of modules they require people to have passed?


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    #73
    Derek M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭Derek M


    Millix
    Well I'm not sure in general but in my case I had to undertake a 30 credit programme in Mathematical Studies.

    Basically I tagged onto the end of the Mathematical Studies degree in the Maths department.

    Guysmiley,
    I'm sorry to hear you are in a similar situation but bear in mind it took almost a year and half for my assessment and appeal to go through the channels in the TC. Keep pressure on them if they are delaying with your application.

    Pathway33
    I personally don't think the TC knows what they want themselves so I can't see the new syllabus making any difference.


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    #74
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    I'm surprised they were worried about the topology, as it's hard to see which of their criteria that shortage would fall afoul of. The other demands seem reasonable, if the degrees hadn't covered them in sufficient depth.


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    #75
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    If TC accepts you for **one** subject, is that enough - from the point of view of registering as a teacher ?

    I'm thinking of whether I should apply for maths, applied maths or both. If I ask for both and pay the extra could I then decide which gap to close, and choose the most favourable combination of extra credits .. or is this too complicated ?

    M


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    #76
    clartharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    millix wrote: »
    If TC accepts you for **one** subject, is that enough - from the point of view of registering as a teacher ?

    I'm thinking of whether I should apply for maths, applied maths or both. If I ask for both and pay the extra could I then decide which gap to close, and choose the most favourable combination of extra credits .. or is this too complicated ?

    M
    Do you have the same degree as me? UCC elec eng? I met someone who does, and was registered for applied maths. I applied for both, as did she, and they just came back with two different answers.

    They are ****ing retarded.


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    #77
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    Thanks for this - surely once you're over the registration hurdle ( say by registering your subject as applied maths ), there would not be an issue with getting work in a secondary school as either an applied maths or as a maths teacher ( at least from the registration perspective .. ).

    If ( registered ) business teachers teach maths then surely ( registered ) engineers would be fine.. maybe we should ask Craig Barrett or Chris Horn for their views on this

    So I'm thinking of only applying as an applied maths teacher, hopefully in that case working on closing a smaller gap than I would be asked to do if I had to apply as either as a maths teacher or as both. I would prefer applied maths anyway, as the idea of studying topology or groups at a serious level does not appeal to my engineering mind

    >>clartharlear >> Yes, UCC EE - I have applied maths in my final year as 1 subject ( equivalent to 5 credits ), so presumably would have to take 10-20 credits of applied maths courses to close the perceived shortfall and get to the magical 30% ( I'm calculating 30% of 60 credits = 18 credits ) <<<

    M


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    #78
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,393 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Applied Maths is not maths regarding subjects and indeed youwill find a good number of AM teachers are science and not maths. Also jobs in am are like hens teeth to be honest wouldn't get hopes up too high. Business students I though study maths modules in college (as in the modules are called maths) hence recognised by TC? You must remember once you are in the door with a subject, you can teach other things in the school so a business teacher could get a job handy as theres lot of Biz but go on to teach maths in the school afterwards.
    I think UCC are working on conversion solutions to the whole problem at the moment


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    #79
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    I'm not sure what you're saying here - my point is that once the box-ticking requirement of registration is satisfied, either with maths or applied maths ( or some other subject ) then one can look for a job as a secondary school teacher. Once you get a job ( very difficult - agreed ) it's up to the principal at the school to decide whether he or she wants you to teach a certain subject.

    Regarding scarcity of jobs in AM - presumably one would be looking for a job teaching maths or applied maths or both.

    I don't think this thread should go off topic about business teachers, but I can't believe that "business teachers get jobs handy" - is the problem not that there are too many business teachers being qualified, and hence entry quotas to PGDE ?

    The idea of a conversion course at UCC is a nice one - are there details emerging ?

    M
    TheDriver wrote: »
    Applied Maths is not maths regarding subjects and indeed youwill find a good number of AM teachers are science and not maths. Also jobs in am are like hens teeth to be honest wouldn't get hopes up too high. Business students I though study maths modules in college (as in the modules are called maths) hence recognised by TC? You must remember once you are in the door with a subject, you can teach other things in the school so a business teacher could get a job handy as theres lot of Biz but go on to teach maths in the school afterwards.
    I think UCC are working on conversion solutions to the whole problem at the moment


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    #80
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    millix wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you're saying here - my point is that once the box-ticking requirement of registration is satisfied, either with maths or applied maths ( or some other subject ) then one can look for a job as a secondary school teacher. Once you get a job ( very difficult - agreed ) it's up to the principal at the school to decide whether he or she wants you to teach a certain subject.

    Once you are registered in some subject with the TC, a school will be able to employ you and they can then decide themself what they want you to teach.

    However, where i think the problem may arise longterm, is that I don't think the school can employ you to a proper contract position unless you are registered with the TC in the correct subject. So to get a proper contract position (pro-rata or whatever) with just AM registration, I think the contract would have to be for AM. They may well give you extra hours in other subjects, but you would have to be officially contracted as an AM teacher. This wouldn't be a problem for TPT type jobs though afaik.


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    #81
    clartharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    Check out the facebook group:
    Let Engineers teach Maths in Ireland


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    #82
    clartharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    Oh my god.

    I just got a call from the teaching council saying that they'd send me out my registration details.

    Basically, back-tracking.

    wow.


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    #83
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,393 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    glad to hear it all worked out well in the end!


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    #84
    kennan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭kennan


    For those of you that have had a reply from the TC, are they accurate when it comes to the 12 week response turn around time as quoted.


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    #85
    millix
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭millix


    Has anyone heard back from Teaching Council, having applied to have their BE degrees assessed ?

    Has anything happened with respect to this ? Earlier we heard that someone's EE degree had been accepted ? or was it that the previous decision was rescinded ? Has teaching council explained their decision

    Has anything happened with respect to conversion courses ? Inputs from IEI ?

    M


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    #86
    Derek M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭Derek M


    Kennan - 12 weeks was not accurate in my case. It was more like a year! But I think I was unlucky.

    Millix - I have just received an update on my situation. As I previously stated my degree (BE from NUIG) was rejected for all subjects. I appealed but was again rejected. I had to undertake further study. The final year of a Mathematical Studies programme from NUIG (through the Arts department).

    I finished the exams in May and got my results last week. I sent the results along with my PGDE transcript (completed last year) and registration form (and a cover clearly stating my case) to the TC. Hopefully that will be me sorted. They had stated that was all I needed. So I've given them their €90 and I just have to wait. Fingers crossed they can process before September.


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    #87
    Potential Teacher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Potential Teacher


    Hi guys,

    Just hijacking this thread if that's OK! I'm an engineer looking to go back to do the PGDE in September 2011. I e-mailed the TC about possible getting qualified to teach Physics or Technical Drawing but apparently they won't give me pointers until I submit an assessment (which I can't do until I get the HDip). So, well, from reading the horror stories here I'm afraid that I'll end up not being qualified to teach Maths!

    I know the TC changes their minds depending on what they ate that morning, but does anyone know anyone who got their engineering degrees from Trinity (BA BAI) who was accepted by the Teaching Council for Maths/Applied Maths? My maths courses in college were entitled 'engineering mathematics' which, again from reading, might help a bit.

    Thanks for the help.


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    #88
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    Potential Teacher wrote: »
    Hi guys,

    Just hijacking this thread if that's OK! I'm an engineer looking to go back to do the PGDE in September 2011. I e-mailed the TC about possible getting qualified to teach Physics or Technical Drawing but apparently they won't give me pointers until I submit an assessment (which I can't do until I get the HDip). So, well, from reading the horror stories here I'm afraid that I'll end up not being qualified to teach Maths!

    I know the TC changes their minds depending on what they ate that morning, but does anyone know anyone who got their engineering degrees from Trinity (BA BAI) who was accepted by the Teaching Council for Maths/Applied Maths? My maths courses in college were entitled 'engineering mathematics' which, again from reading, might help a bit.

    Thanks for the help.

    You can apply to have your undergraduate degree assessed for eligibility to teach a subject at any time.

    You need to fill out this form:

    http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_AppForms/PPQA-01PostPrimaryQualificationsAssessmentForm_21884810.pdf

    and pay €200 to have them assess one subject, and €75 for any additional subjects. They require lots of documentation along with the form such as: parchment, transcripts, the syllabus of the course from the years you did it(with descriptions of each module and the hours spent on each module in lectures/labs/tutorials).


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    #89
    pathway33
    Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    Potential Teacher wrote: »
    Hi guys,

    Just hijacking this thread if that's OK! I'm an engineer looking to go back to do the PGDE in September 2011. I e-mailed the TC about possible getting qualified to teach Physics or Technical Drawing but apparently they won't give me pointers until I submit an assessment (which I can't do until I get the HDip). So, well, from reading the horror stories here I'm afraid that I'll end up not being qualified to teach Maths!

    I know the TC changes their minds depending on what they ate that morning, but does anyone know anyone who got their engineering degrees from Trinity (BA BAI) who was accepted by the Teaching Council for Maths/Applied Maths? My maths courses in college were entitled 'engineering mathematics' which, again from reading, might help a bit.

    Thanks for the help.

    The trinity BAI is on the approved list to teach maths and applied maths
    http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_Publications/Autoquals_updated_16th_April_2010_59583648.pdf page 34


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    #90
    clartharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    pathway33 wrote: »
    The trinity BAI is on the approved list to teach maths and applied maths
    http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_Publications/Autoquals_updated_16th_April_2010_59583648.pdf page 34
    We know well at this stage that the approved list means nothing! It's the special conditions that matter - 30% of ALL modules taken in the final three years (first year of a 4 year degree doesn't count) have to have mathematics in the title. (e.g. a maths-heavy subject like control doesn't count)

    It might help if you didn't graduate from your degree recently. That approved list is from the dept of education, from before the TC's time. I think that might have been my loophole.


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    #91
    awny
    Registered Users Posts: 284 ✭✭awny


    clartharlear wrote: »
    30% of ALL modules taken in the final three years (first year of a 4 year degree doesn't count) have to have mathematics in the title. (e.g. a maths-heavy subject like control doesn't count)

    They dont necessarily have to have Maths in their title. I have a BSc an Mathematical Sciences but I had to have my degree assessed as the TC said I couldnt teach Maths...in the end I got approved to teach Maths and Applied Maths. Below are the modules I studied im my last 3 years of my degree, not much Maths in their titles.
    • Linear Analysis
    • Probability Theory
    • Vector Analysis
    • Ordinary Differential Equations
    • Object Orientated Programming
    • Intro to Numerical Analysis
    • Operations Research 1
    • Theoretical Mechanics
    • Partial Differential Equations
    • Numerical Computation
    • Statistical Inference
    • Stochastic Processes
    • Advanced Data Analysis
    • Linear Algebra 2
    • Numerical Partial Differential Equations
    • Operations Research 2
    • Experimental Design
    • Applied Analysis
    • Fundamentals of Financial Maths
    • Time Series Analysis
    • Advanced Data Modelling
    • Quality Control
    • Theory of Statistical Finance
    So if you have modules like these youll be in with a good chance of getting your degree recognised for Maths.


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