Program Analysis - Programs rated, debated and berated.

puntosporting wrote: »

I'd love to have some advise on this?

Day 1
Your deadlifting day.

So I'd do some hip mobility work in your w/u and then deadlift.

You've pull ups here...as I've said previously...I think deadlifting and then doing pull ups/chin ups or associated back work is not optimal.

I think you would be better off doing either some horizontal pushing or vertical pressing.

You've a clean jerk variation here...and that seems fine and some shrugs.

So this day could look like this:
Deadlifts
Clean & Jerks
Shrugs

Day 2
Your squatting day.

You've squats and seated leg pressing and standing calf raises and seated calf raises? I think this is overkill. I think this would be a better day for the pull ups/chin ups from Day 1.

So this day could look like this:
Squats
Calf Raises - Alternate variation each session
Pull Ups
Tricep work - This is a more appropriate place to have it than later in the week.

Day 3
Your bench pressing day.

You've benching, shoulder pressing, dips, incline benching, tricep push downs. That is a huge amount of chest, shoulder and triceps work way out of proportion with the commensurate volume and out of balance with the rest of your program.

I think this would look better like this:
Benching
Rowing variation - DB Rows, Machine rows you could even super set this with some dips if you liked.
Core work.
Gunz to finish.

Rest Day

Day 4
Your back day....you really row, row, row your boat on this day.

If you like the back volume...go for it.
Seated Rows.
Lat Pull Downs
Dumbbell Shrugs
Upright Rows

Day 5
I think of all the days you've outlined this is the best designed and thought out...even if it isn't on purpose.
Weighted Pull Ups and Dips
Some DB Curls and Tricep Work.

That's just some thoughts off the top of my head. There's lots of way to do it...you need to start of with an 'objective' then look at the time you have and work out how to get that done in the time you have.

Personally I think people choose to do too much and spread their effort too thin.

Look at the last day...I know I could do weighted dips and weighted pull ups in such a way as that there would be no way I could do any supplementary bicep or tricep work.

Gummy Panda wrote: »

I see what you mean in this thread. I do stuff in the gym I think I should be doing, rather then what I need to be doing.

You need balance. You need to do the stuff you like and the stuff you need. I tend to me more skewed to the stuff I like side than the stuff I need but pretty much get it all done.

It remind me of what my physio said after he assessed me: "its well and good having a bug bench and squat, but its all in straight lines. You'd be better off with more bodyweight, stability and metabolic work"

Let me just make this clear...I am not anti weight training or anti body building or anti powerlifting or anti anything else.

You just need to be aware of all the implications and ramifications of your choices. If you are...then more power to you.

I am all for people doing what they love and what makes them happy. I like fighting and doing MMA...I don't do it because it makes me fit and healthy. I do it because I like fighting and I love MMA....but a lot of the rest of my training is all about making sure my body is in the condition to do the thing I love, to stay injury free and perform as well as I can.

Firstly, I am not trying to diminish this achievement at all. I love powerlifting. I've never competed but I read about it and there are lifters who's training and competitive careers I follow.

Secondly, this should be viewed a) as an individual experience first and then b) it should be then looked at in context. From an individual perspective Kev has explained how he is perfectly fine and in perfect condition and doesn't have any issues except of course his spontaneously combusting si joint, his hunchback like rhomboids and the fact that his technique and training program had to be completely reconfigured around all his injuries and problems...so in short...from this I see that he's perfectly fine and as he says...knows what he's doing except for all the things that he's pointed out either don't work or can't work anymore. From a group perspective...powerlifting at a high level or performing pretty much anything at a high level is like walking a tight rope...you are trying to balance pushing hard enough to perform and or reach high performance levels but not so hard that you don't wreck yourself. I would say almost no one that I know of in any high level sport has managed to do this without either not ever making it or wrecking themselves in some way shape or form on the way.

The point I always try to make is that 1. If you are not getting paid to perform. 2. You are not competing. 3. You are not attempting to perform at an elite level than what the hell are you doing?

Now some people might say that they are just in pursuit on individual awesomeness and that is fine as well whether that finishing the Hawaii Ironman in 1783rd place and just setting out to finish it or squatting 600lbs then more power to you. I help people achieve what is to anyone else on the planet a completely meaningless goals all the time...people who just want to weigh 80kg's, people that want to be able to swim the pier to pub...it's their goal and if they want to do it and they want to pay me to help them then I will do so happily and try to find the easiest and least destructive way to do it.

So what I am trying to say that this is Kevpants story and I am fine with it but it's here so I will use it by way of illustration.

So here's my observations:
1. This is totally retarded.
2. Anyone who follows this as an example is a moron.
3. This is exactly what I am talking about when I make the observation regarding people who think they understand what they are doing are often the worst culprits when it comes training and or training advice.

Now to qualify me observations and to give some context.
I get emails everyday from elite athletes and recreational athletes who are operating at a high level and here is a common theme.

What usually happens is that they know that something is not quite right....but it doesn't really effect their performance at all either in their competitive environment or at training and they continue along...maybe for a year or more or maybe just for a month.

The next stage is when they have to start making some adjustments in some way but can still perform in their competitive field at a high level but they have to start making some changes at training...so this might be a powerlifting tinkering with their technique, I've rugby players come to me that can only really tackle with one shoulder, fighters that can't really throw their left hook the same as they used to. So at this stage no one really notices...the athletes know it and maybe others pick up on it but they are still performing at a high level so no one really cares...not even the athlete. Now some people just stay at this stage...they are just a little bit less than they could be but they persevere right up until they give it away and live on into old life with that nagging pain in their neck, that dodgy elbow, that knee that they really couldn't turn off when they were playing etc etc etc.

Some athletes then progress to the next stage...that stage is where you go from things being not quite right but manageable to a screaming mess. Where you go from slight manageable disfunction to the emergency room and from training and competing to surgery and scoffing pain killers and anti inflammatories and wishing you were unconscious.

Pain is a threshold response...nerves are like light switches..they are either on or off...think about placing your finger on a light switch and turning a light on slowly...you start to depress the switch and it has to travel from the off position to the on position....the light doesn't turn on progressively...it doesn't get gradually brighter...it goes from being off to on. The whole movement of the switch means nothing....the only bit that means anything is the completion...the stage where it actually is 'on'. Now when you first place your finger on the switch it doesn't produce anymore or any less light than just before the switch flips into the on position. It is all or nothing. Pain is the same. Whether their is absolutely no stimulus and you feel nothing as in where you first place your finger on the switch. Or where there is heaps of stimulus but the switch hasn't quite reached the on position you still feel absolutely nothing. The next thing you need to know is that if you feel a little pain then it's because only a few nerves are activated...if you feel a lot of pain it is because a lot of nerves are activated. They are still just either on or off it's only the number that changes...think one of the lightbulbs being switched on at a stadium at night versus all of them.

So in short...you are always generally fine....right up and until you are not.

So anyway...we've had Mark Bell's 'F*ck you and f*ck your elbows.' and Kev's 'Power through. Never go backwards' etc etc. That is fine if you are fighting for your life. If you are protecting your family. If you are trying to escape a collapsing building but as a general piece of advice for general trainees it is actually idiotic and irresponsible.

At the same time I got the notification for this post I got a notification of a PM here and an email. I read the PM first, then the email then read this post and I actually laughed for a good solid 10 mins.

Now I won't divulge the PM and I won't identify the poster. I won't divulge the email either. These people know who they are and if they want to chime in then they can but they absolutely don't have to and I am not expecting you too.

What I will say is that both the PM and email were in regard to powerlifters who have been training for years...that both just said 'f*ck you and f*ck your elbows'...that had Kev's admirable philosophy 'power forward and never take a backward step'...one is now going to require life altering surgery at the age of 39 and the other is 36 and who the day after squats or deads has so much foot pain they can hardly do a thing. I won't say much more suffice to say they have a diagnosis that depending on severity will need serious rehab and maybe surgery as well.

Now Kevpants is obviously fine...he's squatting huge weights and has no problems at all and is completely confident of a happy and healthy old age digging holes in his backyard. If you want to roll the dice and take your chances following his example and taking his advice then more power to you. Personally I think its a massive gamble but I will be happy to stand on the sideline and watch and cheer.

kevpants wrote: »

To qualify this, I just spent my weekend digging a 20sqm hole that's 3 feet deep using 2 shovels, a pick, a wheelbarrow and a brother (from the same mother). That my body allowed me to do this and only objected through fatigue and no actual pain hopefully demonstrates that I "know what I'm doing" in that I've achieved what I've achieved without ruining my body. Gigantic isolated rhomboid aside.

What's the hole for?

I saw this thread and thought it might be a good place to outline how I got my raw squat from 500lb to 600lb and what the "program" looked like given I have no time to keep my log up to date. I can also touch on how I dropped a weight class during the period. I'm most definitely a squatter rather than a powerlifter so there's more context for you.

You didn't go into detail with regards how you dropped a weight class?

How I got to 500lb:
Really briefly, started out Westside yo, got reasonably strong, did some program hopping and injury seeking and eventually managed to break the 227.5kg (500lb barrier) and kind of hovered there. Duration of this period 4 years.

So far so good.

How I got to 600lb:
This period lasted only a year. From a training perspective it was a year of discovery and one where I realised what was required and what was fluff. Ironically a big thing for me was taking focus away from training. I know a lot of younger guys/gals with think about training and talk about it all day. Me too, but I changed that and made training secondary to loads of other things. As a dirct result it became more simple, I didn't have time to read what T-Nation told me to do so I was less distracted and I just trained.

Reading t-nation never ends well for anybody.

The basis - We are talking about squatting now ok? Not on the field functionality or athleticism. It's below parralel, it's heavy and it makes you see little lights. The basis for building this is mixing volume with intensity and repeating.

Did you do the 600lbs in competition and is there video of it?

The execution - This is not Busy at Maths 5 so I'm not going to debate 3x5, 5x5 or my 8 times table. Rep ranges I used were 5x5 and ascending sets of 3. The key is to do it multiple times a week and to ALWAYS add weight.
DO NOT LISTEN TO YOUR BODY.

You'd be that bad guy crossing the ravine in an Indiana Jones movie as the ropes start fraying and snapping and the boards start creaking turning to me and going 'Come on...lets get him. It's fine. We'll be fine.'....right before we plummet to our death.

Your body is a lazy piece of self absorbed emotion that you are trying to change into something better. You are there to beat it into shape, why the hell would you listen to it? Powering through and refusing to go backwards are the two biggest things I learned in this year. The phrases

"I think I'll leave it at that for today"

or

"Just not feeling it today"

must be purged from your internal monologue. If you have a session where 5kg has been added to the bar and you need to do 5 sets of 5 with it, that is what you do. Feeling like crap before or during the sets is to be expected. You need to reconcile the fact that 5 sets may take nearly 2 hours and you may be in physical distress throughout.

I think it is important to know the difference between when you internal monologue is what is making you a complete pussy or whether it is trying to keep you out of hospital.

You will come acvross situation when you can't actually lift the weight prescribed. As in first set and you can't get near the right amount of reps. Then you need to take a few days off, not a week, don't come back to the gym for a "light" session, go to bed instead. This is not listening to your body, at this point your body is an unconscious twitching mess on the floor and you need to step away from it for a moment.

Agreed.

Assistance - Would you ever go away from me with your sh1tetalk. If what we want to do is squat more you need to squat in those sessions to the point where you're exhausted. You can do a rolling handstand planche get-up afterwards if you want but I think you're more likely to want to go home and cuddle your mammy if you're doing it right.

I agree with this as well.

You can argue that imbalances need to be addressed etc but here's my take on it. I'm going to take my chances with my imbalances. I'm 33 next month. Much of the 4 years of faffing it took to get to 500lb was spent doing assitance work and addressing my imbalances and with the best will in the world my body still blew up fairly regularly. I did 2 things, stopped worrying about addressing imbalances and started training around them. How? Well I switched to sumo deadlifting and changed my squat technique to prevent my right SI joint from bursting into flames as it did every year for the previous 4 years. Believe it or not, I actually try to round my lower back when I squat now, not arch, round. No one ever told me this would work, i figured it out for myself and added 100lb to my squat thereafter. Whatever is up with the infrastructure down there it just works and nothing breaks when I do this. 40 is approaching and I want to achieve something with the limited time I have before I'm too old to. Food for thought.

I'll just leave all this bit...I'll just be repeating myself.

The structure - You should easily get 6-8 weeks or that before your body is not able to cope with more weight being added etc. Taking a few days off then testing is needed to know where you are. This doesn't have to be a single, it could be a max set of 3 on its own. You just need to know where you are from time to time.

I agree with this as well. High intensity training is something now at my age I can only handle in bursts as well.

I re-read this and I sound like such a douche. I really should put on a TapOut t-shirt or something for all the hardcore-isms I've used but the message is simple.

Squatting is a very simple measure of strength and if your goal is to increase it you need to suffer. In my opinion all the assistance excercises in the world aren't going to help and I'll tell you why. It's far to easy to make them the focus. A bad session of squats or you're feeling a little tired and weepy and suddenly it becomes ok to drop back on them so long as you do loads of core work afterwards, and I'll leave you with this, it is in my ar5e.

I agree with a lot of what you said...for some...it just isn't good advice for most.

In the past 8 months I've fought and won fights. I've had my nose broken twice and in another fight suffered lacerations so bad that I required plastic surgery. I could of stopped fighting at any time. I could of just tapped out and walked away. Again like you I read that and sound like a douche as well...and I don't think you are and I don't think I am. Your sport...your chosen field of performance is not for everyone...not by a long shot. My sport and chosen field is not for everyone either. What you do and what I do is for the fringe. Would I recommend it to others...not a chance. Would I want to live in a world where you couldn't squat huge weights or get kicked and punched in the face...not a chance.

kevpants wrote: »

Cheers Will. That's why I qualified my post, I'm talking about getting a bigger squat, not being healthier or fitter or whatever. It's aimed really at people who want a bigger squat. Secondly the point of this thread is to debate and rip apart programs so I put mine up there fully expecting it to be disected. It's all good.

I knew that you'd know where I was coming from as well.

1. Absolutely. Brilliant fun too.
2. Anyone who i excited by moving a bar full of metal up and down on their back at the expense of their general health is a moron so I think we're talking about a closed user group of morons here anyway.
3. Yep. I hope I was clear enough that mine is an example of getting a result and I outlined exactly how I did so. I tried to outline what I felt was a waste of time. I never go into any technical detail as to why.

Agreed.

It's all about risk vs reward and as I said this is being done against the clock. Your window for improvement in your 30's when you're already at a decent level is small enough. I made a decision to dance along the tightrope of injury by avoiding aggrivation rather than fix the source. Basically becasue I don't have the time/patience to fix the source.

Also agreed.

It's the Chuck Palahniuk approach. Some feel like we're a society of men sitting at desks and in traffic living soft lives and that sport provides an outlet for extremity. It needs to be more than tickling girls bums in the tag rugby of an evening. If it wasn't powerlifting and was triathlon I'd be aiming for Kona and replacing my exploding SI joint with exploding shin splints.

From your standpoint of assesing physiology it's irresponsible, I'd argue that from a mental health perspective it's the reverse.

Mate if you saw what I do for my day job now and then how I spend my free time you would know how funny it is for me to be preaching safety and moderation. As I know that you know...I am trying to give some advice to the 90% of people that need it and who'll ignore it rather than than the 10% that need it but will be will be more interested in finding out what will happen if the stick a knife in the toaster.

Patio. Gonna be awesome. Will upload pics when done.

Have it finished by soon. I don't want pics in the winter with grey skies and rain...that will just upset me.

Oh yeah. Basically I took time off from my "kill'em all, die, die, die" powerlifting and I ran. I approached it in a similar way to powerlifting in that I threw myself into it and ignored the discomfort. Read a lot of books by cyclists, runners, endurance athletes during the period which kept me motivated and as expected after about 6 weeks I was thoroughly bored with it but had a 57 minute 10k to my name. I'm actually back in one of thesw running period now, twice a year is about right I think for a break from powerlifting and I have a 52 minute 10k now. Same month as the 600lb squat too, kinda proud of that /boast.

That should be a nutcase duathlon...max squat and 10km....run them back to back.

At the end of these running periods I'm lighter, usually by 4 or 5kg. Then I start powerlifting again. Ta da!!

This method left me within cutting distance of the 100kg weight class when I'm usually a "thoroughly" 110kg lifter i.e. no chance of cutting below 100kg.

Gotcha.

Yep here it is. It was the Irish record for 15 minutes until a large Pole broke it on me. Some drunk guy asked to ahve his picture taken with me afterwards. Doubled my fan club membership from:

Mam

to:

Mam
Random drunk guy

The random drunk guy probably doesn't remember joining. He still gets a newsletter though.

Hear hear (or is it here here?).

Good stuff.

harpstilidie wrote: »

Hey guys, looking for some analysis on the programme I am doing at the minute. I've been going to the gym 3 times a week for the previous 8 weeks.

Good stuff. Keep that up and you'll be getting a result no matter what you do.

1. The objective of the program.

Improve cardio fitness, lose body fat (specifically abdominal fat) and gain some muscle.

1. By improve cardio do you mean endurance? What type of endurance are you looking for particularly.

2. Losing body fat...that is always a worthwhile goal...you won't specifically lose abdominal fat but by losing body fat in general you will lose it from your belly proportionately.

3. Increasing muscle mass while losing body fat is difficult. Hopefully by decreasing your body fat it may just 'look' like you've gained muscle.

You need to decide which of these goals is the most important to you?

2. Your current stats...age, weight etc etc.

23, 75kg.


3. Programme

Exercise Bike- 15km or Treadmill- 5km.
Lateral Pulldown-40kg, 4 sets of 15.
Pec Machine- 40kg, 4 sets of 15.
Bicep Curl- 30lbs (13.6kg), 4 sets of 10.
Dumbbell Bent Over Row- 30lbs (13.6kg), 4 sets of 15.
Vertical leg crunch- 4 sets of 20.
Bicycle Crunches- 4 sets of 20.
Ab exercise (don't know name)- 4 sets of 20
Torso rotation with 8kg medicine ball- 4 sets of 20.
Exercise Bike- 5km.

Takes about 90 mins to complete.

4. How you plan to implement it...how many sessions a week etc etc.

3 times per week.

Have a sore left knee with road running recently so treadmill is a no go at the minute. Can only last about 2 km. Do I need to change anything? Have increased the weights slightly in the last couple of weeks. Definitely have gained muscle in my arms, not sure about my abs. Still some fat there. Would appreciate any comments or ideas. Thanks, Dan.

Before I talk about your program I want to know what a vertical leg crunch is?

Back to serious business.

harpstilidie wrote: »

Yeah, just want to be fitter and be able to do 5k's and things like that.

Do you want to do them fast or to just do them comfortably?

Would rather lose body fat than gain muscle.

Good to know...that's why I asked.

I'm not fat but have some belly fat that I want rid off. Just want a flat stomach and hopefully some abs too

That's just an issue of body fat rather than ab work.

that would be my main goal.

If that's your main goal then that needs to be the focus of your diet and training.

How do I explain a vertical leg crunch Lying on the floor with the legs out stretched, then you bring them into your body and then up in the air and back to the starting position making sure your legs don't touch the floor. I do that in 4 sets of 20 reps. I seen it in a youtube video. Probably the wrong name for it.

We all know what it is now...even if we don't have a great name for it.

Programme

Exercise Bike- 15km or Treadmill- 5km.

Lets just call this 25-30 mins of cardio for now.

Lateral Pulldown-40kg, 4 sets of 15.
Pec Machine- 40kg, 4 sets of 15.

This isn't a bad antagonistic pairing and is pretty balanced obviously.

Bicep Curl- 30lbs (13.6kg), 4 sets of 10.

No problem with bicep curls but should probably put them towards the end. Small muscle group...little metabolic effect...your gunz can wait.

Dumbbell Bent Over Row- 30lbs (13.6kg), 4 sets of 15.

This seems to stand out on it's own as well. You could perhaps pair this with some sort of vertical pressing movement? Then you will have pretty much covered all the relevant planes of movement.

Vertical leg crunch- 4 sets of 20.
Bicycle Crunches- 4 sets of 20.
Ab exercise (don't know name)- 4 sets of 20
Torso rotation with 8kg medicine ball- 4 sets of 20.

You've a good block of core work here but you've 3 linear dynamic exercises (overkill) and just 1 rotational exercise at the end? This needs to be looked at as well.

Exercise Bike- 5km.

Let's call the 10 mins of cardio at the end.

Takes about 90 mins to complete.

If you have all the time in the world this is fine...most people don't. Also...you may want to look at increasing the density of your workouts not just with regards decreasing your total training time but it will also have a bigger metabolic effect and hence help with your main goal.

harpstilidie wrote: »

I would like to run the 5k's reasonably fast but not competitively although my knee is giving me trouble at the minute so they're out of the question for now. My knee is fine on softer surfaces like grass or astro when I'm playing football but once I hit the road or the treadmill it barely lasts 5 minutes without hurting.

Thanks. So overall it isn't too bad? Just some small tweaks here and there? Any vertical pressing exercises you recommend? Happy enough to leave the bicep curls until the end as I find them tough after the other arm exercises anyway. What do you mean by 'increasing the density of your workouts'? More exercises with less time spent on each?

Oh I am so annoyed...I just wasted/spent the last hour and a bit of work time writing a detailed reply...it had info...I am talking solid gold info....I mean the stuff I only wheel out on page 12 or 13 of a thread when I drop the real heavy duty knowledge bombs to blow peoples minds once we've optimised the thread subscribers. There was some awesome jokes....some straight up laughs but also those ones that really only sink in a few hours after you've read them....and it's all lost. A computer malfunction...and it's all gone...wiped...a master work...never to be recovered.

What I will tell you is that I mentioned was looking after your knees and I'd embedded this video.


I have some proper work to do over the next few days. I will not be online much but I will get back to dealing with your program on Wednesday when I will be getting some free time again.

Look forward to seeing what boards has waiting for me when I get back

Brian? wrote: »

I'm amazed how close this is to the rehab program I was given.

Coincidence I suppose.

Brian? wrote: »

Or yourself and my Physio are equally useless/mediocre/good/rehab genii.

I don't know...I am just thinking you probably should be worried either way no matter what the parallel between myself and your physio.

I am surprised that a mod hasn't taken them down in that case as they could probably be considered medical advice.

Mickk wrote: »

Hey Will,

what do you think about the very basic program that it seems like 90% of people who wouldn't read forums/get trainers are on, a 3-4 day split push/pull/legs or back/biceps, chest/triceps, shoulders/traps and leg days, 3 exercises each body part, 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps ect. Does it have a place or is it the best use of time for any goal?

I like it and if I was looking purely to add mass it's pretty much exactly what I'd do.