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Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

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    #1682
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,742 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Could it be the case that the longer trams operate Sandyford to Broombridge while the shorter trams operate Cherrywood to SSG/Parnell Square or some other similar arrangement?


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    #1683
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Currently Dart trains mix 4, 6, and 8 coach trains at peak time. As long as many long trams operate during peak times, I do not think the mix matters much.


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    #1684
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,853 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Dardania wrote: »
    From recollection when they built the lines originally, yes, red ones are shorter (I've a feeling it's to do with that bitch of bend at the top of Dr. Steeven's lane with James Street)

    Red was 30 and green 40 originally. Then red was lengthened and got all the old green trams transferred

    Bar inter axis width both lines are the same spec


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    #1685
    Schadenfreudia
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Currently Dart trains mix 4, 6, and 8 coach trains at peak time. As long as many long trams operate during peak times, I do not think the mix matters much.

    Yep, the trams are very flexible; at rush hour yesterday evening there were three outbound trams with two-minute intervals - all full of (I assume) people going to the Cherrywood Park & Ride.

    They often run extra trams scheduled to stop at Sandyford Depot all the way to Cherrywood if the trams are packed.

    This is made easy because there are no major road crossing on the route at traffic level.


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    #1686
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,562 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Schadenfreudia wrote: »
    Yep, the trams are very flexible; at rush hour yesterday evening there were three outbound trams with two-minute intervals - all full of (I assume) people going to the Cherrywood Park & Ride.

    They often run extra trams scheduled to stop at Sandyford Depot all the way to Cherrywood if the trams are packed.

    This is made easy because there are no major road crossing on the route at traffic level.

    What are you on about?

    Trams run all day long either between St Stephen's Green and Bride's Glen and St Stephen's Green and Sandyford. That's the scheduled service pattern. Nothing to do with extra trams. Demand between Sandyford and Bride's Glen is lower than the inner half of the route.

    Bizarrely people are travelling to points all along the line - not just park and ride sites, of which there is none at Cherrywood.


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    #1687
    Schadenfreudia
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    lxflyer wrote: »
    What are you on about?


    Trams run all day long either between St Stephen's Green and Bride's Glen and St Stephen's Green and Sandyford.


    That's the scheduled service pattern. Nothing to do with extra trams.


    Bizarrely people are travelling to points all along the line - not just park and ride sites, of which there is none at Cherrywood.

    There is no schedule which puts three Luas trains through Carrickmines in six minutes - which I witnessed last night.

    And as I was in Carrickmines Station at the time and the trams were heading south the passengers were heading for either Cherrywood or Bride's Glen.

    Unless they were all "bizarrely" joyriding at peak hour in the dark :rolleyes:

    The terminus is a well know drop-off point even if not an "official" Park'Ride.

    Also when the trams scheduled to turn back at Sandyford are very full they are often extended to Cherrywood and sometimes when they must turn back for whatever reason "short-run" trams from the Depot to Cherrywood are added - there is no scheduled service from Sandyford to Cherrywood only.

    But it happens...hence the flexibility I was referring to.


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    #1688
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,562 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Schadenfreudia wrote: »
    There is no schedule which puts three Luas trains through Carrickmines in six minutes - which I witnessed last night.

    And as I was in Carrickmines Station at the time and the trams were heading south the passengers were heading for either Cherrywood or Bride's Glen.

    Unless they were all "bizarrely" joyriding at peak hour in the dark :rolleyes:

    The terminus is a well know drop-off point even if not an "official" Park'Ride.

    Also when the trams scheduled to turn back at Sandyford are very full they are often extended to Cherrywood and sometimes when they must turn back for whatever reason "short-run" trams from the Depot to Cherrywood are added - there is no scheduled service from Sandyford to Cherrywood only.

    But it happens...hence the flexibility I was referring to.



    Em - you never said where you were - I assumed you meant the city centre.


    It's kind of helpful to state that.


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    #1689
    Schadenfreudia
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Em - you never said where you were - I assumed you meant the city centre.


    It's kind of helpful to state that.

    Hmm...I didn't. Please accept my apologies :o


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    #1690
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    I woner what effect the Luas line going up O'Connnell St will have on events like St.Patricks Day Parade, annual 1916 commemorations, etc. Also I'm thinking protests outside the GPO will be banned for fear of the line being blocked by large crowds? Has there been any mention of these issues at the planning stages at all?


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    #1691
    BonkeyDonker
    Registered Users Posts: 571 ✭✭✭BonkeyDonker


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    I woner what effect the Luas line going up O'Connnell St will have on events like St.Patricks Day Parade, annual 1916 commemorations, etc. Also I'm thinking protests outside the GPO will be banned for fear of the line being blocked by large crowds? Has there been any mention of these issues at the planning stages at all?

    I cannot imagine it having any more issues than already exists with the substantial Dublin Bus operation already there.


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    #1692
    brandodub
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭brandodub


    BonkeyDonker wrote: »
    I cannot imagine it having any more issues than already exists with the substantial Dublin Bus operation already there.

    Tramway will be temporarily stopped at that time as happens for St Patrick's Day parade presently


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    #1693
    MrMorooka
    Registered Users Posts: 710 ✭✭✭MrMorooka


    The southbound carriageway won't have any tracks on it, so it might be possible to maintain a service by closing that side of the road for any events.


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    #1694
    xper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,064 ✭✭✭xper


    brandodub wrote: »
    Tramway will be temporarily stopped at that time as happens for St Patrick's Day parade presently
    Indeed, there are points at the Dominick St stop so they should be able to operate between there and Broombridge as well as the current operating schedule out of St Stephens Green when events require O'Connell St to be closed.

    Thinking about it, a single short track running between O'Connell Bridge and Rosie Hackett Bridge would allow Cherrywood-City Centre trams to turn around on a shortened loop even with O'Connell St closed. Wouldn't be usable on parade days though so probably not worth it.

    Q: when the red line ops are curtailed for O'Connell St closures, are the overhead lines still carrying juice?


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    #1695
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    brandodub wrote: »
    Tramway will be temporarily stopped at that time as happens for St Patrick's Day parade presently

    For sure it'll be stopped but previously all the flotts that were too high had to find a way underneath the red luas line. A few years back they had giant inflatable animals on a float which they had to deflate before the red line and then re-inflate once clear. With BXD there'll be a line the length of the street. My guess is they'll just run the parade it down the Clearys side because theres no way all the floats will fit under the tram line.


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    #1696
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    xper wrote: »
    Thinking about it, a single short track running between O'Connell Bridge and Rosie Hackett Bridge would allow Cherrywood-City Centre trams to turn around on a shortened loop even with O'Connell St closed.

    The Luas doesn't turn around the driver just walks to the far end so this would be pointless it just needs to have a point that the tram can switch from one track to the other when they are beside each other.


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    #1697
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,562 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    brandodub wrote: »
    Tramway will be temporarily stopped at that time as happens for St Patrick's Day parade presently
    BonkeyDonker wrote: »
    I cannot imagine it having any more issues than already exists with the substantial Dublin Bus operation already there.
    MrMorooka wrote: »
    The southbound carriageway won't have any tracks on it, so it might be possible to maintain a service by closing that side of the road for any events.
    xper wrote: »
    Indeed, there are points at the Dominick St stop so they should be able to operate between there and Broombridge as well as the current operating schedule out of St Stephens Green when events require O'Connell St to be closed.

    Thinking about it, a single short track running between O'Connell Bridge and Rosie Hackett Bridge would allow Cherrywood-City Centre trams to turn around on a shortened loop even with O'Connell St closed. Wouldn't be usable on parade days though so probably not worth it.

    Q: when the red line ops are curtailed for O'Connell St closures, are the overhead lines still carrying juice?

    In those circumstances, the trams will be curtailed to avoid the heart of the city centre.

    There is a turnback siding provided at St Stephen's Green for storing trams, and trams will be able to reverse direction there as they currently do.

    As mentioned there will be a crossover at Dominick Street facilitating trams reversing direction.

    So you will be able to operate Broombridge-Dominick Street and Bride's Glen-St Stephen's Green.

    That's more than sufficient as it retains connectivity with the city centre.
    salmocab wrote: »
    The Luas doesn't turn around the driver just walks to the far end so this would be pointless it just needs to have a point that the tram can switch from one track to the other when they are beside each other.

    Well actually, to be fair, post-extension Green Line trams are planned to operate two patterns under normal circumstances:

    1) Sandyford - Broombridge

    2) Bride's Glen - Parnell - Bride's Glen - that will mean that the tram will operate in a loop in the city centre and will effectively turn around with no switching of ends by drivers!


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    #1698
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well actually, to be fair, post-extension Green Line trams are planned to operate two patterns under normal circumstances:

    1) Sandyford - Broombridge

    2) Bride's Glen - Parnell - Bride's Glen - that will mean that the tram will operate in a loop in the city centre and will effectively turn around with no switching of ends by drivers!

    Why not call one service the gold line and show it on maps. Be more useful than calling the whole thing the green line.


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    #1699
    crazy 88
    Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭crazy 88


    I'm new to this thread and just have a few questions in relation to the LUAS and the BXD line. Since I started using the LUAS I can't get over how pathetically slow it is once it hits the city due to traffic lights, pedestrians/cars not paying attention and bends in the line (it slows to a crawling pace once it hits a bend). So it got me thinking as to why an underground was never built in its place? I assume cost was surely an issue. Im not an engineer so by no means an expert, but if they managed to build an underground in London in the 18th century with their hands why are similar projects in dublin budgeted at billions with projections of years to complete? Not to mention the obvious benefits of not using up road space during and after construction. Its especially frustrating when I remember a story that a Japenese company offered to build an underground for FREE in dublin before the LUAS got the go ahead, while they would take the profits for the first number of years as compensation. Of course the government at the time refused.

    The question in relation to the BXD line is, when I was passing the works on college green the other day I couldn't get over why they were digging so low down to put in a surface tram line. So if they're going to all this effort why not build a tunnel?? The proposed line on the map has so many bends, crosses through so many traffic lights and will have to be even more cautious than the luas going through abbey st (due to reckless pedestrians/cars) that it will most definitely be faster walking from Stephens green to Parnell street.


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    #1700
    Nichard Dixon
    Registered Users Posts: 386 ✭✭Nichard Dixon


    danmci wrote: »
    I'm new to this thread and just have a few questions in relation to the LUAS and the BXD line. Since I started using the LUAS I can't get over how pathetically slow it is once it hits the city due to traffic lights, pedestrians/cars not paying attention and bends in the line (it slows to a crawling pace once it hits a bend). So it got me thinking as to why an underground was never built in its place?

    Exactly. The green line is mostly the Harcourt St railway line, trams can be any length and can run fast. But this high capacity resource is compromised by funnelling these trams into street running. This line should have dipped underground in the city centre, no doubt about it. Instead we get streets festooned with ugly overhead cables and trams running at a funereal pace.


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    #1701
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,794 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    danmci wrote:
    they managed to build an underground in London in the 18th century with their hands why are similar projects in dublin budgeted at billions with projections of years to complete?

    Irish navvies built the tube with shovels and they died in their hundreds, that wouldn't be acceptable today.

    Governments don't plan more than 5 years ahead as there's no benefit to them politically - the FG rainbow govt approved the original Luas, by the time it was built it was a FF minister cutting the ribbon.


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    #1702
    crazy 88
    Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭crazy 88


    loyatemu wrote: »
    Irish navvies built the tube with shovels and they died in their hundreds, that wouldn't be acceptable today.

    Yes I guessed they saved a lot of money by today's standards by cutting on safety and paying low wages. But you would think with advances in technology in the last 150 years since that tunnels could still be constructed a lot cheaper and faster using boring machines. Is there something special about the geology in Dublin that makes it more expensive to build tunnels compared to other cities?


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    #1703
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,742 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    danmci wrote: »

    The question in relation to the BXD line is, when I was passing the works on college green the other day I couldn't get over why they were digging so low down to put in a surface tram line. So if they're going to all this effort why not build a tunnel??

    Seriously? They are digging down about a metre to install ducting and a base for the tracks, this is nothing compared to the depth they would have to dig for a tunnel. Look at the level of the existing overhead lines, you would need to have that depth of clear space in the tunnel, plus foundations, plus supporting the surface above. In the city centre with buildings either side that requires some serious earthworks supports just to prevent everything from collapsing in. No comparison.
    danmci wrote: »
    Yes I guessed they saved a lot of money by today's standards by cutting on safety and paying low wages. But you would think with advances in technology in the last 150 years since that tunnels could still be constructed a lot cheaper and faster using boring machines. Is there something special about the geology in Dublin that makes it more expensive to build tunnels compared to other cities?
    TBMs are cheaper and faster than the equivalent manual labour at todays labour rates but still extremely expensive compared to a lot of desperate men with an already low life expectancy and a few canaries in the 1800s. Another huge cost now is the disposal of huge quantities of excavated material in accordance with environmental laws, something which wasnt high on the agenda 150 years ago. It is not more expensive to build tunnels in Dublin compared to other cities, just our politicians, and a huge chunk of the electorate, wont pay for it.


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    #1704
    crazy 88
    Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭crazy 88


    Thanks for clearing that up. I just think, unless its going underground the LUAS between st stephens green and parnell st is pointless for the reasons I outlined above. I would rather they invest the money in Dart underground, although I know it wouldn't cover the full cost.
    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    It is not more expensive to build tunnels in Dublin compared to other cities, just our politicians, and a huge chunk of the electorate, wont pay for it.

    Which is why I'm baffled as to why the Japanese offer was turned down. Or why at least a PPP scheme can't be taken advantage of.


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    #1705
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    danmci wrote: »
    Which is why I'm baffled as to why the Japanese offer was turned down. Or why at least a PPP scheme can't be taken advantage of.

    If I remember correctly, the Gov turned down an offer by AT&T to install a state of the art telephone system in Ireland for free as AT&T wanted to use Ireland as a test bed for the latest technology (in the 70s or 80s - don't know which) as they thought Ireland was the right size to try out lots of new techniques. If this had gone ahead, we would have jumped from wind-up to electronic in one jump and we would have (for then) the most modern telephone system in the world.

    Anyway, there are no brown envelopes with free.

    Didn't someone say Siemens offered to put in free water meters a while back - turned down also.


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    #1706
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭markpb


    danmci wrote:
    I would rather they invest the money in Dart underground, although I know it wouldn't cover the full cost.

    It wouldn't even cover a fraction of it.


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    #1707
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,313 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Sam Russell wrote: »

    Didn't someone say Siemens offered to put in free water meters a while back - turned down also.

    Siemens offer was only 'free' in the same way that DFS will let you 'take home a new sofa today, no down payment'. Siemens would have got their money back plus profit over the following years. Admittedly it may still have been a better deal than that what we ended up with.
    Though if it was a marginal decision then it was probably quite sensible of the government not to go with 'the germans' back in the troika times of 2011, you can see what a clusterfcuk it would have been, sure the protest placards almost write themselves.


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    #1708
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    As far as tunnelling goes, I remember that in Brussels they relocated quite a few of their inner city surface tram lines underground using the "cut & shut" method. This involves digging a deep trench and "dropping" the line into it and then putting a roof on it followed by the street over that.

    There are also several lines in London built using this method.


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    #1709
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    If this had gone ahead, we would have jumped from wind-up to electronic in one jump and we would have (for then) the most modern telephone system in the world.
    This part did actually happen where we live, the local exchange went from a plug board to a digital exchange in one foul swoop. This happened in the late 80s
    My wife's sister married one of the technicians sent over from the UK to install it.

    I don't know about the politics of the install though.


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    #1710
    1huge1
    Registered Users Posts: 6,171 ✭✭✭1huge1


    Deleted User wrote: »
    As far as tunnelling goes, I remember that in Brussels they relocated quite a few of their inner city surface tram lines underground using the "cut & shut" method. This involves digging a deep trench and "dropping" the line into it and then putting a roof on it followed by the street over that.

    There are also several lines in London built using this method.

    Yes, they did the same thing in Dortmund over the past 5 years, moved the tram network underground (in the city centre anyway, not sure about further out), quite an impressive feet.


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    #1711
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    danmci wrote: »
    I'm new to this thread and just have a few questions in relation to the LUAS and the BXD line. Since I started using the LUAS I can't get over how pathetically slow it is once it hits the city due to traffic lights, pedestrians/cars not paying attention and bends in the line (it slows to a crawling pace once it hits a bend).

    It is very slow in places. From Charlemont to Stephens Green particularly.


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