Israel bombs 160 sites in Gaza overnight. Mod Warnings in First Post.

Manic Moran · 14-07-2014 4:56pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Can you explain what the execution of the Dahiya Doctrine is if not terrorism? http://imeu.org/article/the-dahiya-doctrine-and-israels-use-of-disproportionate-force

That's not terrorism, that's deterrent. Same reason why Georgia is unlikely to make another grab at South Ossetia against Russia any time soon: the larger military force can and will bring its disproportionate weight to bear and spank them, just like they did last time.

Looking through the various proposed legal definitions of terrorism over on Wiki, one of the noticeable exceptions is that of a State's legitimate armed forces, as their conduct is already governed under the Laws of War. Most of the definitions of terrorism require extra-jurisdictional acts by non-state bodies.

jimeryan22 · 14-07-2014 4:57pm

Ouch..! You dirty boy David duke..
Just looked him up there..
What he stands for reads great..... " Duke supports the preservation of what he labels Western culture and traditionalist Christian "family values", strict Constitutionalism, abolition of the Internal Revenue Service". Up until....... "voluntary racial segregation, ardent anti-communism and white separatism"....
Not a very nice chap then is our david

kult · 14-07-2014 4:58pm

comongethappy wrote: »

Well......

Replace "JEWS" with "blacks, "pakis" or "traveller" & tell me its not drifting close to bigotry.... Something strangely tolerated on this forum.

truth is not tolerated but it is accepted. Tolerance means completely something else.

kult · 14-07-2014 4:59pm

K-9 wrote: »

Mod: We are getting close to Jewish conspiracy theory stuff here. This is a politics forum and not for CT type discussion, Boards has a forum for that if that's your interest. Thanks.

No conspiracy at all. Go to youtube and listen to some jewish politicians. It's proven how they work etc and they are happy to admit it publicly. Conspiracy is when we have no proof at all.

jimeryan22 · 14-07-2014 4:59pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's not terrorism, that's deterrent. Same reason why Georgia is unlikely to make another grab at South Ossetia against Russia any time soon: the larger military force can and will bring its disproportionate weight to bear and spank them, just like they did last time.

Looking through the various proposed legal definitions of terrorism over on Wiki, one of the noticeable exceptions is that of a State's legitimate armed forces, as their conduct is already governed under the Laws of War. Most of the definitions of terrorism require extra-jurisdictional acts by non-state bodies.

Does this count..?

http://youtu.be/KoJGCU2XVyw

Manic Moran · 14-07-2014 5:05pm

wes wrote: »

For sales purposes for one. Secondly considering the numerous costly failures with similar tech. I would assume a success would be used to get more money from congress to develop more stuff.

The US is one of the biggest weapons manufactures in the world. Surely plenty of friendly countries would be interested in purchasing such a system, assuming it works nearly as well as claimed. Without independent verification of effectiveness, I think it best to remain skeptical, considering how piss poor the stuff Hamas is using.

Firstly it's an Israeli system, not American. The US system is CRAM, and is a point defense system, not an area defense system. Secondly, as far as anyone knows, the system is doing great, so why not let the perception stand? And thirdly, a US ally is involved in an ongoing conflict. It would be rather bad form to be releasing performance figures during that conflict, it is not to the ally's advantage to not have the opposition guessing at its effectiveness.

kult · 14-07-2014 5:07pm

I just want to say again that I am not antisemitic at all. It just happen that those people who are responsible for world wide terrorism are jews, thats all, but obviously not all jewish people are responsible for this and cannot be responsible for others actions. Just to let some people know about how some jews control media , governments etc. Example, around 70% of politicians in Poland are jewish or have jewish roots. Most of them have changed names in mid 1960 and they admitted it on the TV in 1989. They are also files , original documentation in the polish IPN ( the keep all history files ) and everyone can view them. They are ruining the country. Exactly the same thing happens in most of eastern europeans countries. Someone who has no jewish roots or is recommended will never enter any government offices. It is a fact. I had to live there for many years when parents moved to work there, know their history very well.

The Saint · 14-07-2014 5:07pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's not terrorism, that's deterrent. Same reason why Georgia is unlikely to make another grab at South Ossetia against Russia any time soon: the larger military force can and will bring its disproportionate weight to bear and spank them, just like they did last time.

You make it sound like violating the laws of war (war crimes) is a positive thing.

comongethappy · 14-07-2014 5:08pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

and is a point defense system, not an area defense system.

What is the difference?.... Is it not all for defending an area?
(Forgive the sidetrack)

jimeryan22 · 14-07-2014 5:15pm

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Does this count..?

http://youtu.be/KoJGCU2XVyw

Again......

Anybody...?????

kult · 14-07-2014 5:20pm

of course it was inside job to invade other countries to get oil, it happens all the time... and people who knew anything always commit suicide or die in strange accidents... yeah, coincident and conspiracy I know;-)

WakeUp · 14-07-2014 5:21pm

comongethappy wrote: »

I think there could be a confusion between the delivery system & the warhead.

The biggest Iranian missile is pretty inert unless it has a payload to do the damage.

AFAIK, Iran has no nuclear weapon (the only weapon that could deliver that much damage).

No I'm not confused about the delivery system and payload which are obviously two different things . An mrv capable system which the Iranians apparently have combined with HE (high explosive) multiple warheads can and would cause a lot of damage when dispersed it's an area as opposed to single target weapon system.
http://missilethreat.com/exclusive-iran-equips-qadr-h-qiam-ballistic-missiles-with-mrv-payloads/

Scofflaw · 14-07-2014 5:21pm

kult wrote: »

I just want to say again that I am not antisemitic at all. It just happen that those people who are responsible for world wide terrorism are jews, thats all, but obviously not all jewish people are responsible for this and cannot be responsible for others actions. Just to let some people know about how some jews control media , governments etc. Example, around 70% of politicians in Poland are jewish or have jewish roots. Most of them have changed names in mid 1960 and they admitted it on the TV in 1989. They are also files , original documentation in the polish IPN ( the keep all history files ) and everyone can view them. They are ruining the country. Exactly the same thing happens in most of eastern europeans countries. Someone who has no jewish roots or is recommended will never enter any government offices. It is a fact. I had to live there for many years when parents moved to work there, know their history very well.

Hmm.

Claims that Jews are masterminding world events? Check.

Claims that Jews are running world media? Check.

KKK video? Check.

Claims that politicians are crypto-Jews? Check.

Claims of "Jewish friends"? Check.

Arguing against moderation? Check.

9/11 was an inside job? Check.

Any further posting along these lines will lead to an immediate ban for kult. jimeryan22, consider yourself also on protective notice - there's a forum for 9/11 stuff, use it. Don't post that stuff here.

moderately,
Scofflaw

wes · 14-07-2014 5:27pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's not terrorism, that's deterrent. Same reason why Georgia is unlikely to make another grab at South Ossetia against Russia any time soon: the larger military force can and will bring its disproportionate weight to bear and spank them, just like they did last time.

Looking through the various proposed legal definitions of terrorism over on Wiki, one of the noticeable exceptions is that of a State's legitimate armed forces, as their conduct is already governed under the Laws of War. Most of the definitions of terrorism require extra-jurisdictional acts by non-state bodies.

There is no agreed upon definition of terrorism. The usage would suggest its a term that is to describe the other guy in a conflict, if we are to be honest.

Also, if we are to take that terrorism is only committed by non-state actors, then the term state terrorism can be used, which basically means the exact same thing, just committed by a state actor, or maybe the term war crimes could be used to describe the doctrine.

WakeUp · 14-07-2014 5:32pm

comongethappy wrote: »

What is the difference?.... Is it not all for defending an area?
(Forgive the sidetrack)

Air defence can be broken down into three general terms - long range, medium range, point. Point being the last line of defence before the projectile hits the target if the other two fail to do so. Long or medium range missile defences aren't of much use considering the proximity of Israel and Gaza - systems go after missiles in different ways. When rockets leave Gaza they are pretty much already in their terminal phase which is why a point defence system is needed to engage them.

iMrApex · 14-07-2014 7:20pm

kult wrote: »

Menachem Begin Israeli Prime Minister 1977 to 1983

"Our race is the Master Race. We are Divine Gods on this Planet. We are
as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact
compared to our race , other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best.
Other races are considered as human excrement. Our Destiny is to rule
over inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with
a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves."

You think that terrorism is only related to war and killing people. This is a problem. They control and destroy counties economically etc. Israeli Prime Minister and other israeli politicians approve it. They are worse that uncle Adolf. Concentration camps etc. As I said, I am not getting involved with someone who protects and defends terrorists. No negotiations with terrorists or their supporters.

If anyone actually Googles that quote, like I did, you will find it was fabricated by the whole first page of the search. Kult I've seen many people like you on other forums and I really can't understand your mindset. You post videos from the KKK, you think Jewish people basically control the world, etc. It was probably ignorant of me to think that I wouldn't come across someone like you on this forum. It's absurd to claim you're not anti-Semitic if you read all your posts.

Manic Moran · 14-07-2014 9:34pm

comongethappy wrote: »

What is the difference?.... Is it not all for defending an area?
(Forgive the sidetrack)

Not necessarily. CRAM is basically a big machinegun, with a very limited range, a few hundred yards. It is based at/on the facility/area being protected, and can only protect that facility against rounds coming at it. Something like a base. Iron Dome is capable of protecting an area of a couple of square miles, and the incoming need not be aimed in the direction of the weapon system.

The Saint wrote: »

You make it sound like violating the laws of war (war crimes) is a positive thing.

I'm not at all, but there was nothing in that quote about violating the laws of war.

I expect the Israelis to adhere to them. Sometimes they don't, and sometimes when they don't, they even discipline those who don't. Sometimes they don't and the behavior is tolerated, which I'm not so keen on. That's a different issue to the quote on the doctrine above.

wes · 14-07-2014 9:39pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

I expect the Israelis to adhere to them. Sometimes they don't, and sometimes when they don't, they even discipline those who don't. Sometimes they don't and the behavior is tolerated, which I'm not so keen on.

It rare that Israel will punish anyone for war crimes, and only ever after it becoming a big deal in the worlds media, and more often than not they get a slap on the wrist. Israels record on punishing wrong doing is abysmal and very much for show.

wes · 15-07-2014 12:53am

Manic Moran wrote: »

Firstly it's an Israeli system, not American. The US system is CRAM, and is a point defense system, not an area defense system. Secondly, as far as anyone knows, the system is doing great, so why not let the perception stand? And thirdly, a US ally is involved in an ongoing conflict. It would be rather bad form to be releasing performance figures during that conflict, it is not to the ally's advantage to not have the opposition guessing at its effectiveness.

Who said anything about releasing it during the operation? There has been plenty of time since the last time it was used for independent figures to emerge, and secondly its seems that quite a few people are question how good the system actually is, considering the high miss rate of Hamas rockets to begin with. There is most certainly enough doubt to be raised at how good there system is.

BlaasForRafa · 15-07-2014 3:24am

wes wrote: »

Who said anything about releasing it during the operation? There has been plenty of time since the last time it was used for independent figures to emerge, and secondly its seems that quite a few people are question how good the system actually is, considering the high miss rate of Hamas rockets to begin with. There is most certainly enough doubt to be raised at how good there system is.

Iron Dome isn't designed to shoot down every rocket, it is only launched when the system predicts that the rocket/missile is going to hit a populated area. If the system thinks that the projectile is going to hit an unoccupied area then it doesn't launch, there's no point in using up expensive missiles just to protect some scrubland.

Given the lower level of casualties compared to previous rocket barrages and the fact that no areas have had to be evacuated indicates that doubts about the system don't currently stack up.

BuilderPlumber · 15-07-2014 8:11am

As we know from our own experiences here, peace needs to be formed by moderate politics. The problem in Israel at present and Palestine too is that total hardliners predominate and feed off each other.

Unfortunately, the moderate Rabin was killed by an extremist back in the mid 1990s and the tough but pragmatic Sharon mysteriously got sick just about the time he was doing a deal. I would bet my life on it that Sharon was meddled with by extremists too.

On the Palestinian side, the more moderate Fatah/PLO just got very corrupt allowing so-called 'Islamists' in to fill the vacuum. Islamic Jihad/al Qaeda do not deserve to be in any settlement. Hamas are a different entity and there is within it a debate on where the organisation is to go. The more moderate elements in it need to be encouraged and Israel needs to meet them and come to an agreement.

Current Israeli policy feeds into the hands on extremists on the Palestinian side which in turn feeds extremists on the Israeli side. The last 2 Israeli leaders Olmert and Netanyahu were hardline rightwing warmongers with little or no sense of pragmatism. The president, Shimon Perez, is a moderate and would be ideal to have a bigger role in Israeli politics but unfortunately Israel's presidency is ceremonial.

BuilderPlumber · 15-07-2014 8:19am

To put the context of the conflict into perspective, I will give you a fictional example from our own struggle. Someone mentioned similar already.

Imagine in the wake of the killing of Mountbatton in the late 1970s, the British Army decided to retaliate and picked out the following 'IRA strogholds': Lifford, Ballinamore, Monaghan town and Dundalk and then razed these places to the ground and then invaded Donegal, Leitrim, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth to form an 11 county Northern Ireland/Greater Ulster (The 9 Ulster counties plus 2 from other provinces thrown in for good measure) that remains in place to this day.

The British never did this and never would as they understood things. But this is exactly what Israel has done to Syrian, Egyptian, Lebanese and now Palestinian territory.

wes · 15-07-2014 9:51am

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Iron Dome isn't designed to shoot down every rocket, it is only launched when the system predicts that the rocket/missile is going to hit a populated area. If the system thinks that the projectile is going to hit an unoccupied area then it doesn't launch, there's no point in using up expensive missiles just to protect some scrubland.

Given the lower level of casualties compared to previous rocket barrages and the fact that no areas have had to be evacuated indicates that doubts about the system don't currently stack up.

I have no doubt that it does work to a degree, but I think question being raised are valid. Also, its just as likely that Hamas rocket capability has degraded over time, with the ongoing siege.

walshb · 15-07-2014 11:39am

I have no real issue with anyone defending themselves, but it seems that Israel use an attack against it to destroy as much as they can. No sense of proportionality. This is borne out of pure hate. Analogous to a big strong man who gets attacked by a small woman. The man has the ability to restrain and defend and thwart any real attack, but he goes steps too far and destroys the woman with brute force. Completely nasty and unnecessary!

FTA69 · 15-07-2014 12:14pm

Israel is presiding over a military occupation, a blockade and a system of apartheid in Jerusalem. It is not "defending itself".

“When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing… You can’t defend yourself when you’re militarily occupying someone else’s land. That’s not defense. Call it what you like, it’s not defense.” - Noam Chomsky

walshb · 15-07-2014 12:29pm

FTA69 wrote: »

“When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing… You can’t defend yourself when you’re militarily occupying someone else’s land. That’s not defense. Call it what you like, it’s not defense.” - Noam Chomsky

I like that quote!

old_aussie · 15-07-2014 12:41pm

The muslim terrorists know how to make the truce, the just don't know how to keep the truce.

A fragile truce between Israel and Hamas to end an eight-day conflict is in danger of blowing up as the Palestinian group’s military wing, along with other Gaza militias, reopened fire on targets in Israel, and Israel has fired a warning shot into an open area in Gaza, signalling it is prepared to resume the war.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/renewed-rocket-fire-threatens-to-sink-israel-hamas-truce/article19609240/?cmpid=rss1

Elmer Blooker · 15-07-2014 7:33pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

There was a report on the BBC news last night with what the Libyan's would have called a "technical", a toyota pick-up truck with a multiple rocket launcher on the back and it was in plain sight on a street surrounded by houses.

Hamas LOVES civilian casualties, because it can hype up impressionable arab youth into hating Israel and fool gullible western sympathisers into opposing Israel's right to defend itself.

The IDF warns civilians to clear out of areas before making attacks, it isn't the IDF's fault if idiots decide to suicide themselves by being human shields for Hamas http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2014/07/gaza_civilian_casualties_while_hamas_targets_innocent_people_israel_tries.html

Hamas and Islamic Jihad are the ones making indiscriminate attacks on civilians, but you'll hear the usual suspects on here say stuff like "oh they've only got unsophisticated rockets not like Israel" conveniently ignoring the fact that the 40lb of explosives on a grad rocket is plenty good a killing if it hits the right target, not to mention the more sophisticated missles that Hamas seems to have now.

Explain this please, apparently Hamas fired rockets from a Lebanese power station in a previous conflict? Was Israel at war with the Christian population of Lebanon in 2006?
Of course this war crime was swept under the carpet as it wasn't against "international law"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiyeh_Power_Station_oil_spill

BuilderPlumber · 15-07-2014 10:50pm

old_aussie wrote: »

The muslim terrorists know how to make the truce, the just don't know how to keep the truce.

A fragile truce between Israel and Hamas to end an eight-day conflict is in danger of blowing up as the Palestinian group’s military wing, along with other Gaza militias, reopened fire on targets in Israel, and Israel has fired a warning shot into an open area in Gaza, signalling it is prepared to resume the war.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/renewed-rocket-fire-threatens-to-sink-israel-hamas-truce/article19609240/?cmpid=rss1

Both sides are as bad as each other. Yes, there are good people in Hamas and in Israel's government who do attempt peace but every time what happens: the extremists get the war going again and everything breaks down. This is not the first Israel v Palestine war of course and it certainly will not be the last either.

SeaBreezes · 16-07-2014 1:31am

Check out occupation101 on youtube. Won best documentary at both cannes and sundance. What struck me most (approx 26 mins in) was'We used to babysit each others kids, my grandmother told me' I hope someday, they will again. Would post the link/video directly, but I cannot. Its at (http)

/m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr9CIGeePXU&sns=fb

Israel bombs 160 sites in Gaza overnight. Mod Warnings in First Post.

Comments