Mayo GAA Discussion Thread

harpsman · 14-04-2014 12:05am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

IMO it is trolling.
There are a few non Mayo people who come on here, midweek, after wins, after losses etc, and give good honest and properly structured opinion about whether Mayo are good bad or indifferent.
And I like their posts, and their opinions and appreciate their knowledge and insight.

All you do is come on after a loss and bang out a few old clichés as if you were the first man/woman in the world to come up then.
That is just trolling, plain and simple.
But hey whatever you are into.

Im heart broken I havent won your approval-dont worry I ll leave you to it from now on,a local thread for local people. I prefer a bit of intelligent debate myself.

royster999 · 14-04-2014 12:23am

Horans management is bearing similarities to Maughans in the 90s.

- Team emerging from nowhere to challenge for top honours.
- Poor tactical decisions made in AI finals.
- Lack of top quality forwards.
- Moving an multiple all star corner back to the half forward line to inject much needed impetus to stuttering attack (Mortimer 99', Higgins 14')

yop · 14-04-2014 12:29am

harpsman wrote: »

Im heart broken I havent won your approval-dont worry I ll leave you to it from now on,a local thread for local people. I prefer a bit of intelligent debate myself.

LOL, well you won't keep yourself company then. You head for the hills if anyone else does.

Cheerio. You won't be missed.

Fr Tod Umptious · 14-04-2014 9:04am

WesternZulu wrote: »

......Could be a blessing in disguise, the last thing this Mayo team needs before the Championship is to lose another final in Croke Park and I can't see anyone stopping Dublin.

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

We had a similar result last year at this stage and still blazed our way to the final.....

SeanJ09 wrote: »

As someone pointed out above, we did have a similar result against Dublin last year in the League Semi's. Nearly everyone wrote us off for the championship and I seem to remember two out of the three RTE panelists predicting a Galway win in our opening game of the championship....

I'm sorry but I cannot see this as any anything other than a indicator that this team, both the players and management, are not able to put in what is needed to improve in 2014 on what has been done since 2011

That is no criticisms on them either by the way, I always thought it would be an impossible task to go to the well again in 2014 after the defeats of 2012 and 2013.

That was a game that they should have won.
Yes Derry are better than people expected but Mayo had an extra man for most of the game and were leading late in the 2nd half.
As I said on Friday there was no upside to loosing this game, and there still is none.

And I don't think you can compare it with last years loss. Last year they had what was expected to be a tough game v Galway coming up in mid May, so they did not need extra league games to prepare for it. League safety was the main aim, the fact that they ended up in the playoffs was just a coincidence of how the league turned out.
In the SF v Dublin they went 2 goals down in quick succession, as they failed to close the gap in the 2nd half Horan emptied the bench to give guys a run out in Croke Park.

It was a million miles way from yesterday. This year the league title was the aim, winning it would have laid down a marker, it would have been a national title and a win v Dublin or Cork in Croke Park, plus two extra big games before the charade that is a trip to NY and then a lay off until mid June.
But they failed miserably to achieve that goal, and it's worrying why they did.

The whole league has been a worry.
Higgins is required in the full back line, but that leaves a huge hole in the half forward line.
Andy Moran is regressing.
Conroy will not regain the form he had for the 2012 Championship.
On the plus side Jason Gibbons has done well, but we have loads of mid fielders.
Freeman has been consistent
McLoughlin seems to be returning to pre 2013 form.
Sweeny, or Gallagher or someone may be a find in the forwards.
We will see what the summer brings, apart from possibly Roscommon in Hyde Pk, I don't really see much of a challenge for them in Connaught.

They may get to another final seeing as they are on the opposite side to Dublin, but I fear they will be getting to that final in the form of the '04 and '06 teams rather than the form of the '12 and '13 teams.

But at least now my expectations have been set for the year

Fr Tod Umptious · 14-04-2014 9:42am

harpsman wrote: »

Im heart broken I havent won your approval-dont worry I ll leave you to it from now on,a local thread for local people. I prefer a bit of intelligent debate myself.

Spoken like a true troll.
If what you posted after the game counts for, in your eyes, 'intelligent debate', I will not be visiting your counties thread anytime soon to get a feel for how they are doing or what the locals think.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 14-04-2014 10:06am

There have been some bizarre suggestions on the Mayo GAA facebook page that we are better off having lost that game as it sets us up better for the championship. I don't know about anybody else, but I want to see Mayo win every competition they can.

Fr Tod Umptious · 14-04-2014 10:35am

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

There have been some bizarre suggestions on the Mayo GAA facebook page that we are better off having lost that game as it sets us up better for the championship. I don't know about anybody else, but I want to see Mayo win every competition they can.

It's a common enough reaction, a bit like "sure aren't they better to get beaten now than getting hammered by Dublin", BS that you hear.

yop · 14-04-2014 10:43am

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

There have been some bizarre suggestions on the Mayo GAA facebook page that we are better off having lost that game as it sets us up better for the championship. I don't know about anybody else, but I want to see Mayo win every competition they can.

Wireless is available in pubs, easy access to Facebook, enough said.;)

davegrohl48 · 14-04-2014 10:50am

We only require a slight improvement in defence and attack to have won every game played this year. Thats the overall trend. Simplistic, but true.
The fitness cycle will be to peak in 6 weeks from August - September. Which means the team after its Dubai holiday is doing strength building work right now. Hence not full of running in second half of games. People are talking as if improvement is impossible. Perspective and patience needed.
But yes Horan seems to be making some mistakes and some strange ones. But they have a clear run to a quarter final from here with a large squad. Half forward line requires major change and defensive tactics/selection but that is surely going to happen.

Past30Now · 14-04-2014 10:52am

Leaving AOS on the pitch yesterday was a deliberate decision by your management, not an error or mistake. He was clearly out on his feet, but he's supposed to be one of your top players, and has to be able to last the 70 mins. You could see him looking to the bench, almost willing to be subbed, for most of the last 15 minutes. This seemed to me to be a tough love policy by James Horan.

Having been at your last two games, from a football perspective Mayo aren't as bad as the two results might indicate. None of the Connacht teams will beat Mayo,so you'll more than likely qualify for the last 8. At that point, you'll have your defence tightened up, midfield going well, and hopefully (for you) your forwards beginning to fire. The Gibbons guy looks like a quality midfielder (A lot better than some of the options chosen by my own county). Him and SOS could become an excellent pairing, and then put AOS in the half forward line as a third midfielder.

keeponhurling · 14-04-2014 11:08am

A lot of negative reaction to yesterday's game, but the league ain't so important to Mayo at this stage.
They will be peaking July-September, have no doubt.

It was a good run in Croke Park in a tight game, and a bit of a kick of the @rse for players like AOS.

Horan has experimented a bit, which is the right thing to do.
Gibbons look a useful option at midfield.
I'd have no worries about Higgins at corner back in the championship, if he plays there, so maybe better to give him a bit more experience at half forward.

Mayo will be a different animal later in the summer, and (I assume) Cillian O'Connor will be back who is the main scorer.

I still think that if O'Connor and Freeman did not get injured in or before the final last year, Mayo would have won.
They can do it.

davegrohl48 · 14-04-2014 11:14am

Past30Now wrote: »

Leaving AOS on the pitch yesterday was a deliberate decision by your management, not an error or mistake. He was clearly out on his feet, but he's supposed to be one of your top players, and has to be able to last the 70 mins. You could see him looking to the bench, almost willing to be subbed, for most of the last 15 minutes. This seemed to me to be a tough love policy by James Horan.

Having been at your last two games, from a football perspective Mayo aren't as bad as the two results might indicate. None of the Connacht teams will beat Mayo,so you'll more than likely qualify for the last 8. At that point, you'll have your defence tightened up, midfield going well, and hopefully (for you) your forwards beginning to fire. The Gibbons guy looks like a quality midfielder (A lot better than some of the options chosen by my own county). Him and SOS could become an excellent pairing, and then put AOS in the half forward line as a third midfielder.

AOS stamina is still better than it was last year. Look back at Donegal 2013 league game. He was giving up on closing down space. Was way off game pace. With simple progression should be much fitter later in the year. Big guys like him take ages to get sharp. He's not built to be a greyhound up n down the pitch anyways.

Oldtree · 14-04-2014 12:40pm

Jason Gibbons (9) long arms were hard at work yesterday and will feature again in the coming months, some serious accurate running followed by blocking.
Got to watch the points, there were a few goal shots that were deffo match winning points.
Hennellys kickouts were 20-30 meters longer than the other goalies and is a huge advantage to us.
I think the lads looked tired at the end but its the only way to get championship fit, run run run and keep running until the muscles do it automatically. I believe they are getting there and there was some lovely flair shown yesterday along with an increased ball capture on kickouts.

Ascii · 14-04-2014 2:00pm

Am I the only one that feels the league is over and management still do not know their best starting 15 players. I have always said that the FBD was a chance to bring in 10-12 fringe players and give them some game time but as soon as the league started your mind needed to be made up on two or three more players per game as the 7 games progressed. It seems like we are going to New York in three weeks and JH does not know his best/starting fifteen players. I feel the last league game or two followed by league semi/league final should be your chance to get your team in a routine of playing together.

From following the league JH seems to be definite about 2-Caff, 5-Lee, 6-Donal, 7-Boyler, 10-Higgins and 14-Freeman. I know we are waiting on a few injured players who will probably automatically slot in Barrett + COC but IMO management should have the another positions nailed down and get these lads working together in the AvB games. We have spent 8 league games tinkering with 5 midfielders (AOS, SOS, JG, TP, BM) and he still does not know his best two.. All have offered something different.

I think keith's best place is in the back line. I feel this experiment has run its course. I would love to see has someone like AOS the potential to fill the No. 11 jersey. I also think Feeney should have had more of a run in that spot. Bringing him on with one minute to go yesterday was pointless and serves no purpose. I have good time for JH and the lads on the line, but sometimes question their decisions.

I can see us hitting the Rossies in June with 15 players who have not played any competitive games as a unit with a distinct possibility of struggling for large parts of the game.

yop · 14-04-2014 2:02pm

Jason Gibbons was standout again yesterday, he had a great game. Have to say Mickey Sweeney impressed me greatly, his calmness and accuracy was a positive to take from the game.
Freeman had a good game also and Hennelly did very well under the 2 high balls that went in on top of him.
I might watch the game tonight again, just to annoy myself.

Gary Neville · 14-04-2014 2:02pm

I'm a long suffering Cork Football Supporter and like Mayo, we had a very poor day at CP yesterday. Carlsberg don't do collapses but if they did........ And like Mayo we've had far more bad days than good days at CP so I know how you are feeling today.

I'd love to see Mayo finally break their hoodoo and the Mayo Supporters must be the best in the country. I admire the optimism that I still see in the thread.

However, every football person outside Mayo are seriously questioning whether this side has the mental toughness to stay going - Surely every team reaches a tipping point where when they constantly come up just short, they just don't believe deep down that they'll ever get over the line.

I'm not trying to put the boot in here but I'm asking the question - Do Mayo Supporters really believe that this team will ever make the break through ?

GBXI · 14-04-2014 2:15pm

Gary Neville wrote: »

I'm a long suffering Cork Football Supporter and like Mayo, we had a very poor day at CP yesterday. Carlsberg don't do collapses but if they did........ And like Mayo we've had far more bad days than good days at CP so I know how you are feeling today.

This is completely incorrect, particularly in my time. Mayo have won a lot more than they've lost in Croke Park, and for Christ's sake it's only 4 years since Cork were AI champions.

MaroonAndGreen · 14-04-2014 2:30pm

GBXI wrote: »

This is completely incorrect, particularly in my time. Mayo have won a lot more than they've lost in Croke Park, and for Christ's sake it's only 4 years since Cork were AI champions.

You can argue that every county has more bad days in CP than good ones.

Gary Neville · 14-04-2014 2:40pm

GBXI wrote: »

This is completely incorrect, particularly in my time. Mayo have won a lot more than they've lost in Croke Park, and for Christ's sake it's only 4 years since Cork were AI champions.

You are missing my point - in the last 7 years Cork have lost 2 finals, 2 semis and 2 QF's in CP - we won 1 final. Obviously we won more than we lost but I'm only concerned about the big games and we've not had a good record in those.

Mayo are the same - with a poor record in the really big games - my question about belief still stands.

GBXI · 14-04-2014 2:55pm

Gary Neville wrote: »

You are missing my point - in the last 7 years Cork have lost 2 finals, 2 semis and 2 QF's in CP - we won 1 final. Obviously we won more than we lost but I'm only concerned about the big games and we've not had a good record in those.

Mayo are the same - with a poor record in the really big games - my question about belief still stands.

I'm just sick of the same bullsh1t questions being asked, particularly of Mayo, but in this case Cork too. Mayo have a very good record in "big games", especially in recent times, and in every final since 89', bar maybe '96 they have been the underdogs. There is absolutely no lack of belief in the Mayo team - of that there is no doubt.

I highly doubt there is any lack of belief in the Cork team either. The reasons that games are won and lost are a lot more complex than what you're suggesting.

Gary Neville · 14-04-2014 3:06pm

GBXI wrote: »

I'm just sick of the same bullsh1t questions being asked, particularly of Mayo, but in this case Cork too. Mayo have a very good record in "big games", especially in recent times, and in every final since 89', bar maybe '96 they have been the underdogs. There is absolutely no lack of belief in the Mayo team - of that there is no doubt.

I highly doubt there is any lack of belief in the Cork team either. The reasons that games are won and lost are a lot more complex than what you're suggesting.

OK - well at least you've given an answer. But come on - not even a teeney, weeney bit of doubt, at this stage ? At least Kieran Shannon is doing a hell of a job.

keane2097 · 14-04-2014 3:06pm

GBXI wrote: »

I'm just sick of the same bullsh1t questions being asked, particularly of Mayo, but in this case Cork too. Mayo have a very good record in "big games", especially in recent times, and in every final since 89', bar maybe '96 they have been the underdogs. There is absolutely no lack of belief in the Mayo team - of that there is no doubt.

I highly doubt there is any lack of belief in the Cork team either. The reasons that games are won and lost are a lot more complex than what you're suggesting.

This seems to me all obviously correct, but when it comes to building a narrative that stirs people up and sells newspapers facts are an irrelevance.

It boils down to the idea that the only games that count as "big" are the ones the team of supposed bottlers lost. You think of Mayo deciding to warm up in front of the Hill and outfighting Dublin - that was one of the biggest GAA occasions I've ever seen and Mayo showed unbelievable character to win it, does that ever feature in discussions about their bottle? Nope, instead the fact that they performed to expectation in losing to a vastly superior Kerry is somehow evidence that they just didn't have the stones.

Same for Cork, who have produced some unbelievable performances in massive games, vs Tyrone in the 09 semi-final one that comes to mind, but again if a team has the label of bottlers the only games that are considered are the ones they lose.

Conversely, a team like Tyrone, who were beaten by worse teams (sometimes worse by a distance) every year they didn't win the AI in the 00s, yet are thought of as a big game team because of the ones they won with no mind paid to those they lost.

As DDC posted a while ago, the whole bottlers thing is just noooooooonsense.

Gary Neville · 14-04-2014 3:15pm

keane2097 wrote: »

This seems to me all obviously correct, but when it comes to building a narrative that stirs people up and sells newspapers facts are an irrelevance.

It boils down to the idea that the only games that count as "big" are the ones the team of supposed bottlers lost. You think of Mayo deciding to warm up in front of the Hill and outfighting Dublin - that was one of the biggest GAA occasions I've ever seen and Mayo showed unbelievable character to win it, does that ever feature in discussions about their bottle? Nope, instead the fact that they performed to expectation in losing to a vastly superior Kerry is somehow evidence that they just didn't have the stones.

Same for Cork, who have produced some unbelievable performances in massive games, vs Tyrone in the 09 semi-final one that comes to mind, but again if a team has the label of bottlers the only games that are considered are the ones they lose.

Conversely, a team like Tyrone, who were beaten by worse teams (sometimes worse by a distance) every year they didn't win the AI in the 00s, yet are thought of as a big game team because of the ones they won with no mind paid to those they lost.

As DDC posted a while ago, the whole bottlers thing is just noooooooonsense.

Aw come on Keane. Cork were very nervous in 2010 and beat an average Down side (Div 2 then) by 1 pt. The failures in the previous 3 years (lost 2 finals and 1 semi) obviously weighed very heavy on Cork minds. If they had lost in 2010, it's very likely that it could have broken their mental resolve for good.

Lots of people are now questioning Mayo's resolve and it's not just journos trying to sell newspapers - Paddy Power has Mayo now out to 11/2 to win Sam (joint 2nd favourites with Cork)

It's a legitimate question and I believe that it must be giving cause for concern.

Fowler87 · 14-04-2014 3:16pm

keane2097 wrote: »

This seems to me all obviously correct, but when it comes to building a narrative that stirs people up and sells newspapers facts are an irrelevance.

It boils down to the idea that the only games that count as "big" are the ones the team of supposed bottlers lost. You think of Mayo deciding to warm up in front of the Hill and outfighting Dublin - that was one of the biggest GAA occasions I've ever seen and Mayo showed unbelievable character to win it, does that ever feature in discussions about their bottle? Nope, instead the fact that they performed to expectation in losing to a vastly superior Kerry is somehow evidence that they just didn't have the stones.

Same for Cork, who have produced some unbelievable performances in massive games, vs Tyrone in the 09 semi-final one that comes to mind, but again if a team has the label of bottlers the only games that are considered are the ones they lose.

Conversely, a team like Tyrone, who were beaten by worse teams (sometimes worse by a distance) every year they didn't win the AI in the 00s, yet are thought of as a big game team because of the ones they won with no mind paid to those they lost.

As DDC posted a while ago, the whole bottlers thing is just noooooooonsense.

Top post. You're right, there is too much hyperbole written and talked about regards Mayo GAA. We lost (most) of our 'big' games by simply not being good enough on the day.

keane2097 · 14-04-2014 3:26pm

Gary Neville wrote: »

Aw come on Keane. Cork were very nervous in 2010 and beat an average Down side (Div 2 then) by 1 pt. The failures in the previous 3 years (lost 2 finals and 1 semi) obviously weighed very heavy on Cork minds. If they had lost in 2010, it's very likely that it could have broken their mental resolve for good.

So come on, realistically here what you're saying is they were bottlers in 2010 who won even though they were bottlers. Can you actually be a bottler and still win? Like say Cork should have beaten Down by 10 points but only won by a point?

Are Kerry bottlers for losing to Tyrone and Dublin in AI finals? Or again is it only the games Kerry win that we look at because the narrative is generally not that they are bottlers?

Gary Neville wrote: »

Lots of people are now questioning Mayo's resolve and it's not just journos trying to sell newspapers - Paddy Power has Mayo now out to 11/2 to win Sam (joint 2nd favourites with Cork)

It's a legitimate question and I believe that it must be giving cause for concern.

Mayo are 11/2 to win the All Ireland, right. What price were they before the off last season? It was more like 16/1 IIRC. Would seem to suggest that getting to within a kick of a ball of winning it was way above what they should have been able to do, no?

What about their AI semi-final last year? A game they were expected to win, but ended up being put to a massive test by Tyrone, rode it out and ended up cruising to victory with the likes of Alan Freeman, Tom Cunniffe and Colm Boyle showing a massive unwillingness to crack under pressure.

Does that come into the analysis at all? Like I said, when it comes to Mayo, bottle is only invoked when they lose despite their enormous overachievements in getting to so many finals with so many average teams (2013 aside, but they were still beaten by a better squad).

GBXI · 14-04-2014 3:29pm

Gary Neville wrote: »

OK - well at least you've given an answer. But come on - not even a teeney, weeney bit of doubt, at this stage ? At least Kieran Shannon is doing a hell of a job.

I assume you are taking the piss, because you haven't actually made one insightful comment since your first daft post.

davegrohl48 · 14-04-2014 3:45pm

Ascii wrote: »

Am I the only one that feels the league is over and management still do not know their best starting 15 players. I have always said that the FBD was a chance to bring in 10-12 fringe players and give them some game time but as soon as the league started your mind needed to be made up on two or three more players per game as the 7 games progressed. It seems like we are going to New York in three weeks and JH does not know his best/starting fifteen players. I feel the last league game or two followed by league semi/league final should be your chance to get your team in a routine of playing together.

From following the league JH seems to be definite about 2-Caff, 5-Lee, 6-Donal, 7-Boyler, 10-Higgins and 14-Freeman. I know we are waiting on a few injured players who will probably automatically slot in Barrett + COC but IMO management should have the another positions nailed down and get these lads working together in the AvB games. We have spent 8 league games tinkering with 5 midfielders (AOS, SOS, JG, TP, BM) and he still does not know his best two.. All have offered something different.

I think keith's best place is in the back line. I feel this experiment has run its course. I would love to see has someone like AOS the potential to fill the No. 11 jersey. I also think Feeney should have had more of a run in that spot. Bringing him on with one minute to go yesterday was pointless and serves no purpose. I have good time for JH and the lads on the line, but sometimes question their decisions.

I can see us hitting the Rossies in June with 15 players who have not played any competitive games as a unit with a distinct possibility of struggling for large parts of the game.

Would fully agree with this unfortunately. In Horans defence there have been injuries, loss of form, a necessity to continue experimenting. But yes it is more unsettled at this stage than I would like.
With an unsettled team I can't see how we're maximizing training as you suggested.
I'd like our half forwards on their 500th repetition of 'Get it to Freezer' and 'Get it to Cillian' various plays like that come August. Basically make our half forward play instinctive and automatic. Not the current malaise where players are gaining possession and it's make it up as you go along.
This was where I thought we were headed this year in terms of advancing the preparation especially with Buckley involved and his background in researching other sports like American football which are huge about training ground pre-rehearsal. Where a team is fully versed in specific plays.
Gaelic Football is not as easy to set-piece like American football but like we do know we will have x number of posessions at half forward left wing/central/right wing. I thought now we'd be at the stage of having decoy runners, setups to free up Gibbons through the middle. Without a settled 15 we can't make that step. Would be devastating if we could. It's ahead of the curve I think on where training/tactics are headed.

Fr Tod Umptious · 14-04-2014 4:04pm

Gary Neville wrote: »

I'm a long suffering Cork Football Supporter and like Mayo, we had a very poor day at CP yesterday. Carlsberg don't do collapses but if they did........ And like Mayo we've had far more bad days than good days at CP so I know how you are feeling today.

I'd love to see Mayo finally break their hoodoo and the Mayo Supporters must be the best in the country. I admire the optimism that I still see in the thread.

However, every football person outside Mayo are seriously questioning whether this side has the mental toughness to stay going - Surely every team reaches a tipping point where when they constantly come up just short, they just don't believe deep down that they'll ever get over the line.

I'm not trying to put the boot in here but I'm asking the question - Do Mayo Supporters really believe that this team will ever make the break through ?

The thing is that you can never refer to a county as ‘this side’ or ‘this team’ as you do in the above post.

The pattern for Mayo teams since 1989 has been get to a couple of All Ireland finals in a row, fail to win, and then fall back for 7 or so years.

Personally I believe that the core of this team and management may have run it’s course without an All Ireland, but in 5 or 7, or less, years’ time there will be a new core of a team that may challenge

Plus, the history of what has gone before does not weigh as heavy on any Mayo team as some people like to let on.

Gary Neville · 14-04-2014 5:35pm

keane2097 wrote: »

So come on, realistically here what you're saying is they were bottlers in 2010 who won even though they were bottlers. Can you actually be a bottler and still win? Like say Cork should have beaten Down by 10 points but only won by a point?

Are Kerry bottlers for losing to Tyrone and Dublin in AI finals? Or again is it only the games Kerry win that we look at because the narrative is generally not that they are bottlers?

Mayo are 11/2 to win the All Ireland, right. What price were they before the off last season? It was more like 16/1 IIRC. Would seem to suggest that getting to within a kick of a ball of winning it was way above what they should have been able to do, no?

What about their AI semi-final last year? A game they were expected to win, but ended up being put to a massive test by Tyrone, rode it out and ended up cruising to victory with the likes of Alan Freeman, Tom Cunniffe and Colm Boyle showing a massive unwillingness to crack under pressure.

Does that come into the analysis at all? Like I said, when it comes to Mayo, bottle is only invoked when they lose despite their enormous overachievements in getting to so many finals with so many average teams (2013 aside, but they were still beaten by a better squad).

I'm not sure whether you've properly read what I've said. I've never used the word 'Bottlers' in regard to any GAA IC side. I have the utmost admiration for the level of effort these guys make for the love of the game and their county.

Cork were very nervous in 2010 - IMO this was due to the fear of another heart breaking failure - Cork met Down in the c/ship afterwards on 2 occasions and beat them comfortably. There was a huge sense of relief when they finally made the break-through.

I do not think for one moment that Mayo are bottlers - they have some of the finest footballers of the current generation - Lee Keegan is the best HB in the country by a long way IMO.

My question was whether the failures at the final hurdle, so often, would shatter the self belief of the present group of players. The recent failures v Dublin and Derry only add to this theory. I sincerely hope that it Cork are eliminated that Mayo win Sam. However, even the most Die-hard Mayo Supporterts must be asking questions

Gary Neville · 14-04-2014 5:44pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The thing is that you can never refer to a county as ‘this side’ or ‘this team’ as you do in the above post.

The pattern for Mayo teams since 1989 has been get to a couple of All Ireland finals in a row, fail to win, and then fall back for 7 or so years.

Personally I believe that the core of this team and management may have run it’s course without an All Ireland, but in 5 or 7, or less, years’ time there will be a new core of a team that may challenge

Plus, the history of what has gone before does not weigh as heavy on any Mayo team as some people like to let on.

Yeah - teams usually change a lot in the space of 5/6 years. Kerry have only 2/3 of their 2009 AI winning side at this stage so they are clearly a different side and haven't got the same level of confidence.

I'm not sure I agree with the last line - as each year goes by the weight of expectation increases. Many neutrals now perceive Mayo as a team that don't really believe deep down that it's going to happen for them. Of course this could be the year they reach the summit - Cork and Kerry are gone back - Dublin will find the task of back-to-back AI's as difficult as everyone else - We don't know if Donegal can rediscover their 2012 form. Mayo should be well positioned and if they get there, they will have a serious weight off their shoulders.

Defiler Of The Coffin · 14-04-2014 7:46pm

Gary Neville wrote: »

Yeah - teams usually change a lot in the space of 5/6 years. Kerry have only 2/3 of their 2009 AI winning side at this stage so they are clearly a different side and haven't got the same level of confidence.

I'm not sure I agree with the last line - as each year goes by the weight of expectation increases. Many neutrals now perceive Mayo as a team that don't really believe deep down that it's going to happen for them. Of course this could be the year they reach the summit - Cork and Kerry are gone back - Dublin will find the task of back-to-back AI's as difficult as everyone else - We don't know if Donegal can rediscover their 2012 form. Mayo should be well positioned and if they get there, they will have a serious weight off their shoulders.

I see where you are coming from but the only timeline that's really weighing on the team is the past three years. Go back to 2011 and look at the game Mayo played against Cork, look at 2012 and the game against Dublin and you will see a team that hadn't any shackles of history around them. However losing two AIFs in a row is bound to sap confidence and the team is now showing signs of fatigue from the past three years. After all the team hasn't changed drastically since the 2011 semi-final. That being said there is plenty of time to freshen up and fix the team, on the face of it Mayo have regressed since last year but there are still players waiting to return from injuries and the league hasn't exactly been a disaster, after the first two defeats this year most Mayo fans would have taken a semi-final exit.

I don't think it's as simple as the 'weight of expectation' increasing year on year. Most people would have little expectations for Mayo anyway and a team cannot dwell on history, all they can do is their best on any given day. It might just end up that we are better off invisible on team's radars for the moment.

ColeTrain · 14-04-2014 11:03pm

Plenty of things for Horan to think about in the coming weeks and months ahead.

His first concern has to be the defence. The full back line has taken plenty of flak for conceding so much. Yesterday it was evident that giving the half back line that much licence to go forward is costing us.

Their first goal was like it was in slow motion - as soon as the ball broke in midfield, the space they had to solo in was mental.

Horans decisions were also strange. Taking of Gibbons, Higgins and Kev Mc off was wrong. Bringing on Richie Feeney with 2 minutes left was also strange to say the least, ironically he was involved in a buildup that could have led to a goal but he needed to be on at least 20 minutes earlier.

Positives were Sweeney having another good game. Some of Boyles defending was great to see ( as always ) and Gibbons has nailed a starting place for Championship.
Cunniffe, Barrett, Feeney, Dillion, B.Moran and O'Connor are there to strengthen the team. I would also like to see Adam Gallagher being more involved.

All in all, a bad day for us yesterday but you have the assume that Horan and Buckley will be working hard to patch things up. Hopefully we will be a different animal in the next few months.

Ascii · 15-04-2014 8:03am

Anyone feel that A Morans role does nothing for the team or the style of play. Robbing ourselves of a corner forward to let him roam back to the halfway line to collect the ball, bring it ten yards and then pump a high ball into the 2 player full forward line looking for a loose man is not a style of play that yields much dividends. I always felt that he was much more dangerous being in the corner where you could send low ball into him where he was effective at turning and shooting. 50% of the time you get the push in the back and you will get the free out of it. I have not over examined the mayo league games on the whole but on Sunday last we persisted with sending high balls into Sweeney and varley when he came on...prob two of the shortest men in the team....high balls they were never going to get.

The other thing we seem to be getting progressively bad at is carrying the ball into the tackle. SOS in the last minute against Dublin and AOS in the last two minutes against Derry. While Buckley had taught them the art of tacking successfully, it also brings with it a belief that particularly when you are a large strong player, you can take the ball into the tackle and not cough it up. While this does suck in two or there defenders, you need to be extremely accurate at releasing the ball back to the freeman which is where we suffer. It stifles the game IMO and is less productive when compared to the stlye of game where the ball is moved on fast in advance of the tackle.

In National school when we trained you were only allowed one solo-one hop and you had to release the ball and move it on, regardless how much space you had...it promoted a faster game and stopped the big strong lads keeping the ball and gave the rest of us a chance :-) Must have worked. We won the Cumman na Mbunscoil in 89 :-) :-)

WesternZulu · 15-04-2014 8:38am

Ascii wrote: »

In National school when we trained you were only allowed one solo-one hop and you had to release the ball and move it on, regardless how much space you had...it promoted a faster game and stopped the big strong lads keeping the ball and gave the rest of us a chance :-) Must have worked. We won the Cumman na Mbunscoil in 89 :-) :-)

Who said Mayo teams are chokers :pac:

davegrohl48 · 15-04-2014 11:12am

Ascii wrote: »

Anyone feel that A Morans role does nothing for the team or the style of play. Robbing ourselves of a corner forward to let him roam back to the halfway line to collect the ball, bring it ten yards and then pump a high ball into the 2 player full forward line looking for a loose man is not a style of play that yields much dividends. I always felt that he was much more dangerous being in the corner where you could send low ball into him where he was effective at turning and shooting. 50% of the time you get the push in the back and you will get the free out of it. I have not over examined the mayo league games on the whole but on Sunday last we persisted with sending high balls into Sweeney and varley when he came on...prob two of the shortest men in the team....high balls they were never going to get.

The other thing we seem to be getting progressively bad at is carrying the ball into the tackle. SOS in the last minute against Dublin and AOS in the last two minutes against Derry. While Buckley had taught them the art of tacking successfully, it also brings with it a belief that particularly when you are a large strong player, you can take the ball into the tackle and not cough it up. While this does suck in two or there defenders, you need to be extremely accurate at releasing the ball back to the freeman which is where we suffer. It stifles the game IMO and is less productive when compared to the stlye of game where the ball is moved on fast in advance of the tackle.

In National school when we trained you were only allowed one solo-one hop and you had to release the ball and move it on, regardless how much space you had...it promoted a faster game and stopped the big strong lads keeping the ball and gave the rest of us a chance :-) Must have worked. We won the Cumman na Mbunscoil in 89 :-) :-)

Andy was good in that corner forward role but the cruciate injury has robbed him of pace, which ruins his ability to be out in front and his turning ability even worse. The corner backs that are around now are all speed merchants that would be first to the ball.
Fully agree with you about us carrying the ball into the tackle. Hardly any benefit to it. Only benefit would be AOS/SOS attempting to burst past coverage close to goal in order to setup a certain score/free. But out the field it is not something we should be doing.
Yes played that one solo one hop game, it's all you should need even in a proper game unless you break into major space.
My attacking 8 based on league form and consistency over last few seasons:
Midfield - Jason Gibbons (attacking midfielder, accurate and a goal threat)AOS (Defensive midfielder, great at turnovers and can block up the centre. Needs an effective and consistent role that does not involve running 45 to 45 type play. We're asking too much of his limited stamina. For kickouts could move out, for opposition kickouts marks his man.)
Half forwards:
- Adam Gallagher (Aerial ability and accurate. Good passer. High energy)
- Cillian OConnor (Consistent is the key thing, we can rely on him from game to game. Will win 50:50's (he's even bigger now), will pass well and chip in with scores
Kevin McGloughlin (completely free licence to roam to defence/midfield and support attacks. He's the guy who tidies things up as a link man. Good passer inside to full forwards)
Full forwards:
Sweeney - Has proved his accuracy
Freeman - Needs good ball
Seamus OShea - Place him back as a 3rd defensive midfielder around centre back. With Kevin McGloughlin supporting attacks opposition defence won't have that much of an outnumbering.
With that team I think you solve the issue of opposition running through our centre. You also solve the inconsistency problem at half forward by putting Cillian there supported by two high energy players who can pass well.

WesternZulu · 16-04-2014 9:15am

Some interesting points from an AOS interview about professionalism, franchisees, and gaelic football analysis on TV in comparison to hurling:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/unfair-county-structure-has-no-future-oshea-30189894.html

Can't say I agree with the franchises or professionalism.

However, totally agree with his points on the differences in gaelic football and hurling analysis...it's one of my big gripes with RTE. Nothing against hurling and the way its analysed but you'd swear that the lads doing the football don't even like the sport at times the way they go on.

yop · 16-04-2014 11:09pm

WesternZulu wrote: »

Some interesting points from an AOS interview about professionalism, franchisees, and gaelic football analysis on TV in comparison to hurling:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/unfair-county-structure-has-no-future-oshea-30189894.html

Can't say I agree with the franchises or professionalism.

However, totally agree with his points on the differences in gaelic football and hurling analysis...it's one of my big gripes with RTE. Nothing against hurling and the way its analysed but you'd swear that the lads doing the football don't even like the sport at times the way they go on.

He makes a lot of valid points for sure, but agree we don't need franchieses or professionalism in the game, its the essesence of what the GAA is about.
It runied some league of Ireland clubs.

I see a separate thread started by Mayo biggest fan, with of course another sly dig about Mayo peoples intelligence. Ironic his dad is from Mayo, he must be so proud.:rolleyes:

Defiler Of The Coffin · 17-04-2014 8:56am

yop wrote: »

I see a separate thread started by Mayo biggest fan, with of course another sly dig about Mayo peoples intelligence. Ironic his dad is from Mayo, he must be so proud.:rolleyes:

Obviously trying to start another 'intelligent debate'

yop · 17-04-2014 9:13am

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Obviously trying to start another 'intelligent debate'

Yes but a debate is when you have a discussion based on the points you make and then when someone makes a counter point you debate that opinion against your own, not a debate when you make a comment but never return to discuss what others have said about your statement.

tacofries · 20-04-2014 11:46am

I personally don't think the show is over yet if the right changes in player position and substitutions are made (everyone is of the same opinion of what that means).

Even if it is all over all you have to do is listen to this and be thankfull for al the years gone by

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9_rJZ_jzo0

Up the Green And Red

Audioslaven · 20-04-2014 2:03pm

tacofries wrote: »

I personally don't think the show is over yet if the right changes in player position and substitutions are made (everyone is of the same opinion of what that means).

Even if it is all over all you have to do is listen to this and be thankfull for al the years gone by

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9_rJZ_jzo0

Up the Green And Red

I would agree with this. The team looked tired the last day. They should make the 1/4 through ether door. After that we need to up the performance and who knows where the road leads after that.

Ascii · 22-04-2014 8:16am

Just Over A year ago, Mauricio Pochettino’s Southampton defeated Liverpool 3-1 to effectively end the Anfield club’s hopes of finishing in the top four last season.

The Liverpool team that day was as follows: Jones; Johnson, Jose Enrique, Agger, Skrtel; Gerrard, Phillippe Coutinho, Downing, Allen; Suarez, Sturridge.

An encouraging end-of-season run was brought to halt, as Liverpool fans experienced a feeling they had become increasingly accustomed to in recent campaigns — failure. The sense then was that it was a team in transition, and one which was in need of major renovation — Gerrard was past his prime, Henderson wasn’t good enough, Coutinho was erratic at best, Sturridge was a Chelsea reject…

Little did they know that just over 12 months later, with more or less the same core group of players, they would be on the verge of history in the form of their first league title in 24 years.

Perhaps Jordan Henderson epitomises their incredible transition from no-hopers to potential league champions. Branded a flop by some commentators before this season and strongly linked with a move to Fulham, the central midfielder played all bar 22 minutes of Liverpool’s title campaign before his sending off against Manchester City last week. Many people thought he was destined to become one of the many young English midfielders who prematurely fade away despite an extremely promising start to their career, yet a combination of his own improvement and the self-belief that Rodgers gradually instilled in him has turned the ex-Sunderland man into a key member of this Liverpool side, belatedly enabling the 23-year-old to fulfill the potential that earned him a £20million move to Anfield in the first place.

Over the course of the season, Liverpool have recorded comprehensive victories over some of the league’s top teams. Tottenham, Manchester United, Arsenal and Everton have all been roundly outclassed by the Rodgers’ side at one point or another.

Over the course of the season, Liverpool have interchanged from 4-5-1 to 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 to the diamond formation. Yet the side have rarely looked ill-at-ease despite these consistent alterations. To acquire such success in this regard, a club needs two things: players who are intelligent enough to adhere to such tactical versatility and a manager who has the bravery and communication skills to enable his players to buy into his philosophy. Clearly, in Rodgers and the core of this team, Liverpool have both.

As high an authority as Steven Gerrard, for instance, recently said of Rodgers: “I have been absolutely blown away by his sessions, his tactics and his maturity in the job and I am learning from him every single day.

“When you become a little bit of an older player, you look to see how the manager does certain things and he has been fantastic for me personally. He keeps tweaking and tinkering with the formation and making little subtle changes to personnel and tactics and it is coming off from week to week.

“He manages every single player differently. He knows we have different characters in the dressing room and his one-on-one management is the best I have known. He makes you go out on to the pitch feeling a million dollars — full of confidence and belief. He is a very confident manager.”

The following is an extract from the score.ie where they were talking about Rodgers being the manager of the year in the premiership. The sections I have bolded were interesting. Does anyone believe that Horan lacks these skills, ones that Rodgers seems to have successfully implemented in Liverpool?

I always though Horan was cool and calculating when you see him plotting away on the sideline (not so sure anymore)...I know others who think that he mimics a scared little boy, lost for ideas, hiding behind his beanie.

Thoughts anyone ?

Fr Tod Umptious · 22-04-2014 9:13am

Audioslaven wrote: »

I would agree with this. The team looked tired the last day. They should make the 1/4 through ether door. After that we need to up the performance and who knows where the road leads after that.

This is the problem.

We now have to look at everything after Connaught as something Mayo can hopefully win, if they up the performance, rather than something that they should win.

I was in no doubt from the end of 2012 that in 2013 that this team would get to the final.
They were on a learning curve from the 2011 SF, the 2012 Final loss, and the next logical step was another final and this time a win.
They had added Buckley and seeing as Dublin were the other side of the draw there was not much out there to stop them.

And they did just as I expected in 2013, they waltzed to the final. The problem is that they lost it.

Now we have to question their commitment to 2014, are these guys going to be able to put in all the effort and increase their skill and work levels again to get to another final, and be good enough to win it.

From what I have seen in the league I don’t think so.
I think they will win Connaught, with a possible fight from Roscommon in Hyde Park, but once they get to the quarter final it’s a lottery.

If they perform anything like 2013 then they should have no problems against anyone they are likely to meet, including Cork and Kerry, but the problem is I don’t think they will perform anything like 2013.
And as a result they could just fall flat, like they did v Derry, to anyone.

The last 25 years have seen a trend of Mayo getting to finals in close succession and then not being back in a final for 7 or so years.

I’m afraid that if that trend is to continue then we will not see them again till 2020, however it is also possible that a ‘year off’ may help them.

It may give guys a rest
It may give them the chance to develop some minors or u21s
Dublin will likely be going for 3 in a row so they may be vulnerable, and Connaught are due to play Leinster in the 2015 SF.
The field may still be as weak as it is now.

It’s hard to know

Fr Tod Umptious · 22-04-2014 9:14am

Ascii wrote: »

I always though Horan was cool and calculating when you see him plotting away on the sideline (not so sure anymore)...I know others who think that he mimics a scared little boy, lost for ideas, hiding behind his beanie

I know Horan from my youth.

He is stubborn, wise yes, but stubborn.

I think that stubbornness may be holding him back for doing the right thing on the day.

GBXI · 22-04-2014 10:01am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I know Horan from my youth.

He is stubborn, wise yes, but stubborn.

I think that stubbornness may be holding him back for doing the right thing on the day.

Name one successful manager who couldn't be described as stubborn. They all are. Id' have serious worries if he wasn't.

Fr Tod Umptious · 22-04-2014 10:25am

GBXI wrote: »

Name one successful manager who couldn't be described as stubborn. They all are. Id' have serious worries if he wasn't.

There are different levels of stubbornness, and it’s good and bad to be stubborn
It’s good to be stubborn and insist that Mortimer is not getting a starting place no matter how much he has or has not done in the past, or if he threatens to leave the team.

It’s bad to be stubborn when you do not take heed of what your selectors are advising you to do in an All-Ireland final when there are obvious changes to be made

As I said I know Horan from years ago, he was stubborn back then, how that has translated into his Mayo management I don’t know, but I still think he was the best choice form the list back on 2010 and remains the best man for the job in 2014, if not beyond.

Ascii · 22-04-2014 10:33am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

There are different levels of stubbornness, and it’s good and bad to be stubborn
It’s good to be stubborn and insist that Mortimer is not getting a starting place no matter how much he has or has not done in the past, or if he threatens to leave the team.

It’s bad to be stubborn when you do not take heed of what your selectors are advising you to do in an All-Ireland final when there are obvious changes to be made

As I said I know Horan from years ago, he was stubborn back then, how that has translated into his Mayo management I don’t know, but I still think he was the best choice form the list back on 2010 and remains the best man for the job in 2014, if not beyond.

From your text I take it that Tom P and James N were advising him what to do against Dub in the AIF in 2013 when the chips were down and he did his own thing. If I was a selector and he did that to me I would feel undermined, undervalued and fell there was no place for me on the management team.

Fr Tod Umptious · 22-04-2014 10:46am

Ascii wrote: »

From your text I take it that Tom P and James N were advising him what to do against Dub in the AIF in 2013 when the chips were down and he did his own thing. If I was a selector and he did that to me I would feel undermined, undervalued and fell there was no place for me on the management team.

Pure speculation on my part, I have no insight into the goings on on the Mayo side line.

Ascii · 22-04-2014 10:58am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Pure speculation on my part, I have no insight into the goings on on the Mayo side line.

That's ok... . Just thought there for a minute you had insider information. I understand the point you are making in you previous comment

davegrohl48 · 22-04-2014 4:20pm

I worry a little bit from his post match comments that Horan is looking for overly complex solutions to problems.
1. The goal concession count.
- There's a big direct linkage there to having the centre properly closed off with one extra big man (SOS/AOS or both)
- We haven't been too innovative in changing defensively. Haven't seen a proper defensive screen along the centre of the 45 it generally is open enough with our half back line attacking
2. New faces - I can't understand playing young players who aren't physically equipped for the summer. Any young player just out of minor needs to have physicality beyond their years to be ready. Really don't see how it benefits them to be involved at this stage. I'd prefer them 100% focused on u21/club.
3. Hasn't really backed players like Brian Gallagher/Adam Gallagher injuries?)/Richie Feeney.
4. It was worth retrying Aidan OShea upfront given the fact that he has never played there while being fit. 2009 was raw out of minor. 2010 was unfit. 2011/12 played midfield. 2013 league centre forward, was not fit but managed to get on ball. If we played OShea as a roaming big man upfront a team like Dublin/Derry are forced to put their most physical back on him. This frees up Freeman from being marked by OCarroll. Alternatively OShea even more physically outmatches strong back no. 2. There is so much you could design and road test in training with OShea/Freeman in the same forward line.
In the forward line in that role it reduces the amount of ground he has to cover and there are serious doubts about his stamina levels even when fitter. His turnovers/frees won will be much closer to goal. He's usually good for at least two of each given his strength and size. If we have worries about losing out at midfield he can wander out for our own kickout to the wing now and then. Likely being marked by someone much shorter. Would be difficult for a team to rearrange their marking when he would move out for kickouts to the wing. Even if a team switches his coverage on kickouts how do they quickly give a role to OSheas defender. If we win that kickout coverage is not as well set.
All in all it does look like when you look at it at a high level that we are coming at 2014 exactly like we came at 2013. With about the same level of performance, could make valid arguments playing better/worse. But we've yet to see the innovation or players in form/new players that show we've moved on from last year. A big gain in our scoring rate has been completely undone by our concession of goals.

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