‘OCCUPY Wall Street’ protestors on Dame Street

Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

PomBear wrote: »

I'll be prouder to say 'we' instead of 'they'.

Are you part of that protest? if you are you should be proud.
And shame on the rest of us. SHEEP.

washman3 wrote: »

Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

In 30 years time they may not necessarily be proud of having done something pointless.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw wrote: »

In 30 years time they may not necessarily be proud of having done something pointless.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Better than effectively nothing at all.

"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." Einstein

Pombar, im sorry. Its not better than nothing at all, in fact its probably WORSE becase their "demands" are idiotic. Washman the way I see it, a smaller group of under-informed, overly-vocal sheep with too much time on their hands gathered together today in "protest".

People can defend it anyway they want with witty soundbites, revolutionary quotes and the age old throwback of "well what did you do?" but this protest is nothing to be proud of IMO.
Might as well protest and "demand" blood from a stone. Same thing, drunk with idealism to the point of idiocy therefore the message is lost.

I'm all for visionary people fighting for change, but this isn't a vision, its dillusion. If you expect change, you at least need to display a basic understanding of the system as it stands, otherwise you look like an eejit.

Scofflaw wrote: »

And the world will definitely not be saved by people chasing unrealistic and/or imaginary goals in Dame Street.

It was a nice enough little protest, although it initially looked like a street act (and had about the same size crowd), but it's about as useful as the male nipple.

The Irish financial industry, like the US financial industry, is not merely opaque and unaccountable, it is, again like the US financial industry, treated as a sacred cow by the Irish government. It has been poorly regulated and allowed to live not only beyond its own means but on ours, while the economic policy of our country is dictated by an equally deferential response to the power of the international markets.

And what do we get? Student rhetoric, a demand that something that doesn't even exist in the form believed by the protesters is "returned to the people", and a childish protest that we don't want to pay the State's debts. This is cluelessness of a high order. It's a typical Irish version of an international protest, with all the meaningful content replaced with some kind of ignorant whinge - a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

It's only better than nothing if you've nothing better to do.

regards,
Scofflaw

Won't repost most of what I said in the last post but if you look at the history of protest, it has central beliefs that the people are the ones that hold the power to change this nation and what makes it, Democracy 101.

You talk as if the international markets are something Ireland has to adhere to and you're probably right there but the fact is, the people of Ireland have no right to dictated by IMF/EU/Troika and the fact is, protests like this, no matter how big or small are full of people who believe this, they have every right to do so. Instead of being negative, why not support protests? why not encourage others to get out and do something? You never know, something might click, a few hundred might not change anything, a few hundred thousand might and why not keep trying to do so, then we have a huge increase in our possibility of change, whatever that might be.

SouperComputer wrote: »

My hope would be that it sparks something "smarter" first, then perhaps something larger at a later stage.
Regardless of their individual views, they banded together to support and rally for "demands" that are just plain out of touch and border on idiocy.

What would be your idea of something smarter?

Also i'll talk about the demands, no doubt they are huge but they are very respectable views, just because they are out of touch, why not try? there's nothing to lose here and to be honest just because they have really a snowballs chance of actually happening, it's no excuse of not giving it a go because if it's achieved, it will be worth it and incase you haven't noticed, the people of Ireland are not being listened and are being dictated to, we are clutching at straws for something to turn that tide so why not give it a go? To do nothing is to all in all accept this and accept all that comes from it an d for me, I couldn't live with myself not standing up for myself, my community and my country.

Anyways i'll analysis a few of the demands

that the IMF and ECB “stay out of our affairs”

Very fair if you look at damage the IMF has done in other countries, it's also about sovereignty, the IMF/ECB won't support us as a nation and while we're repaying them, how are going to rebuild as a nation? Most, if not all, of Ireland's most astute economists, left and right wing, support default by the way, to say that is bordering on idiocy isn't really acceptable. My view is to ignore all these economists is to border on idiocy and to do so, will lead to this country's economic demise.

that the bank debt taken on by Ireland’s government be lifted

It's simply undemocratic and unfair to allow Irish families to be burdened by the poor gambling of effectively private businesses. I don't go into Paddy Power, if I have a losing bet and demand my money back. It's as simple as that and to not insult democracy, I don't need to explain further.

1. that offshore oil and gas reserves be “returned to the people”

Again, the natural resources whatever they be should always be used for the good of the Irish people, it's, again, fair and democratic. No point in getting into a debate on its worth and Shell's dealings further as to not derail the thread and of which threads, are in abundance.

1. “real participatory democracy” be established in Ireland.

Couldn't hurt, democracy is there to ensure the people's will is pursued by it's representation in Government. It hasn't been in terms of the IMF/ECB bailout or the bank bailout, that was wring in my opinion.

Those people went out into the streets and protested about something they actually believe in as opposed to sitting on their back sides whining. The reaction to such an act that has been displayed on this board is quite disheartening in that it demonstrates just how broken the spirit of the Irish people is.

Whether or not you consider those people to be right or wrong, you must commend them for standing up for themselves. Look at the French, a school recently broke out in a near riot over a rumour that holidays were to be reduced. Putting aside what is and is not needed to sort out Ireland, if the Irish people do not attempt to stand up for themselves then they will be beaten down at every turn.

For my own efforts, I have to admit that I have never gone out to protest and I am somewhat ashamed at that. To date, my only attempts have been a few articles in a tiny magazine my friend publishes on the jobs initiative. Not much, but I for one don't buy into the belief that the EU, the government and the other powers that be have the interests of the people at heart. The modern state is bought and paid for by the corporations and the mega banks.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Ignorance is bliss, eh?

PomBear wrote: »

Won't repost most of what I said in the last post but if you look at the history of protest, it has central beliefs that the people are the ones that hold the power to change this nation and what makes it, Democracy 101.

You talk as if the international markets are something Ireland has to adhere to and you're probably right there but the fact is, the people of Ireland have no right to dictated by IMF/EU/Troika and the fact is, protests like this, no matter how big or small are full of people who believe this, they have every right to do so. Instead of being negative, why not support protests? why not encourage others to get out and do something? You never know, something might click, a few hundred might not change anything, a few hundred thousand might and why not keep trying to do so, then we have a huge increase in our possibility of change, whatever that might be.

I think you've missed the point by quite a wide margin.

On point 1, we are in a position where we have to adhere to the financial targets laid down by the IMF/EU because the State is in receivership, and they are the receivers. Belly-aching about them being foreign overlords or having no right to "dictate" to "the people of Ireland" is meaningless verbiage - we are up the creek, and they're the only ones providing paddles.

The alternative to the troika is simple - massive austerity and a market lockout. People calling for it are therefore stupid or deluded, and those who are calling for it because of austerity are downright idiots, because the alternative to the troika's assistance is even more austerity, as can be seen by anyone who's not living in cloud cuckoo land. And the majority of the people of Ireland can apparently see that - they may not like having the troika here, and they may not like having our national receivers setting the terms and conditions, but the absence of widespread protests reflects the recognition that this is pain we brought on ourselves and will have to work through. And that means that the protests will not get the widespread public support they need to be viable, making them another flash in the pan exercise in feeling good because you're sticking it to the man.

Rejecting the assistance available from the troika doesn't solve any of Ireland's problems - it simply adds new ones. So, even were the protests successful in this aim, they would still be useless or worse than useless.

On point 2, the bank debt was legally taken on by the legally constituted government of the State. Sure, reduce it if we can, but the government is already trying to do so, so this one strikes me as entirely pointless.

On point 3, I'm afraid that nationalising Ireland's oil and gas reserves would be another worse than useless stroke. All of the S2S blether about trillions in petroleum reserves is just that, blether. Our known petroleum reserves are miniscule, and we haven't the money or the expertise to spend several years drilling dry holes all over Ireland's shelf. The known and untapped commercially viable reserves (Corrib, that's all) would pay one Anglo promissory note, at the expense of involving ourselves in: (a) a massive legal case against companies with turnovers bigger than Ireland's GDP; and (b) a potential moratorium or cost hike on imports. When the six months or so of gas in Corrib runs out, what then? So that's another one for the cloud-cuckoo protesters.

On point 4, what's supposed to be meant by "real participatory democracy"? That the public should elect people more in keeping with the preferences of the protesters? Sorry. Or that we should have referendums about everything? On that, we have two populist power-grabs by the executive and legislature tabled for a vote on the same day as the Presidential elections, and both of them will almost certainly pass without any real debate and by large margins. Is that "real participatory democracy"? People voting on complex and potentially far-reaching measures because the sound-bite summary leaves out any potential downsides? Voting for the potential for McCarthy-type tribunals of politicians to sit in judgement over anyone the media make out to be a villain?

Seriously, there's a lot wrong in this country, and not one bit of it is addressed by these protests. I respect the right of the protesters to protest, I admire their willingness to do it, and I think they're idiots with a programme of idiocy.

regards,
Scofflaw

thebman wrote: »

Lets fight against this thing we think is bad but don't know enough about to be able to come up with a viable alternative to or even know exactly what we should be protesting against.

Indeed, If you are actually going to go the effort of protesting about something, it makes sense to me that you would at least put in SOME effort to understand the issues at play.

Nate

thebman wrote: »

Generally people who attend these things do so because they believe the government isn't listening to them screaming they don't want any more cuts or tax increases but the reality is the government is listening and desperately hoping one of the people screaming this has a magic plan to fix it all overnight.

For some reason, they just won't tell the government that magic plan though. Protesting is only effective if the government isn't listening. The Irish government is listening however. If you have a viable alternative, start a lobby group and go talk to them instead of standing on a cold, wet street.

And if you want to deal with a complex and large problem, such as the need for reform in the governance of the State, form an NGO and lobby for reform on an ongoing basis. Use protests to highlight the lack of reform.

cordially,
Scofflaw

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Maybe the only prerequisite to qualify as a valid protester is a deep belief or understanding that what they are protesting against is very very very wrong.

That is the problem - for a protest to be effective it would need to be directed in way that matters, by not understanding what they are protesting against, it is useless noise, directed aimlessly.

If they actually understood what was going on they would have been out protesting in 2008 against NAMA or the guarantee when it might have mattered.

Nate

Why in God's name are so many people around the world bashing this anti financial-sector movement?

Sure at the moment it's vague, sure at the moment it doesn't have a very clear agenda, but for f*ck's sake it's better than the three years of helpless b!tching on Joe duffy we've had, isn't it?

Occupy Wall Street and its offshoots may not be a perfect protest movement by a long shot, but dammit it's SOMETHING, something we've been lacking for the last 4 years as people have just rolled over and taken it up the ass from these gobsh!tes. Now a small group of people have finally had enough and tried to start a dissent movement and they're being ridiculed by so many people - people who are ALSO being screwed over by the banks!!!

Every single person in this thread is paying tax in some form or another. Every single person in this thread is having money taken from them to pay for idiotic mistakes by others.

IMO, anyone who ridicules or bashes this movement is indirectly saying "you know what, I don't really five a f***".

Apathy, ladies and gentlemen. The scourge of our society.

thebman wrote: »

Generally people who attend these things do so because they believe the government isn't listening to them screaming they don't want any more cuts or tax increases but the reality is the government is listening and desperately hoping one of the people screaming this has a magic plan to fix it all overnight.

For some reason, they just won't tell the government that magic plan though. Protesting is only effective if the government isn't listening. The Irish government is listening however. If you have a viable alternative, start a lobby group and go talk to them instead of standing on a cold, wet street.

I have to be honest I disagree here. I don't attend because I feel the government isn't listening. I attend because I know from history and from the media that overwhelming outpourings of rage and frustrations in gigantic numbers can actually sow the seeds of change.

EDIT: Consider the medical card protests back in 2009. The government was forced to go back on that proposal to restrict it because of the amount of rage generated in the streets and on the airwaves.
Are you honestly implying that protesting is a complete waste of time?

I'm on the committee for Save Our Seafront in Dun Laoghaire, where a succession of gigantic protest marches and rallies forced the county council to abandon its skyscraper plan for Dun Laoghaire Baths. Protesting DOES work. What kills it is mass apathy such as that being displayed in this thread.

20Cent wrote: »

The New York Times is paying attention now.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/opinion/sunday/protesters-against-wall-street.html?_r=1


"It is not the job of the protesters to draft legislation. That’s the job of the nation’s leaders, and if they had been doing it all along there might not be a need for these marches and rallies. Because they have not, the public airing of grievances is a legitimate and important end in itself. It is also the first line of defense against a return to the Wall Street ways that plunged the nation into an economic crisis from which it has yet to emerge."

lol, wrong thread they're not too interested in the Dame Street protest

O'Coonassa wrote: »

What specifically do you find to be unrealistic about demanding a more direct form of democracy with a view to getting a more just solution to the problems with the monetary system?

People like you once said that the Universal franchise was unrealistic. I bet they'd feel like right idiots now if they weren't dead.

The Occupy Protests are part of a Global Movement of the people for the people by the people. You're either for the People or against them. Pick a side.

To which the only deserved response is that in fact I'm the one on the side of the people, obviously. How can I tell? Well, 99.99733% of the people aren't at the protest in Dame Street, and I'm one of them.

amused,
Scofflaw