NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

bk · 13-05-2016 11:08am

chris_ie wrote: »

As others have said, as long as its a stop gap and doesnt end up being a case of "well, your covered by at least 30Mb broadband, we'll take you out of the NBP". I'm also on the magic blue lines from Eir, if that ever gets done.

The problem is it won't end up a stop gap! If it ends up getting accepted as commercially reaching the NBP goals, then areas covered by it would end up excluded from the NBP subsidy.

That would end up meaning no subsidy to rollout FTTH in those areas, which would result in the stop gap becoming the permanent solution.

30Mb/s today might seem great today when you are stuck on 1Mb/s ADSL. But how are you going to feel when you are still only getting 30Mb/s 5 years from now when your neighbours in the next town over are getting 1Gb/s?

How about 10 years from now when you are still getting 30Mb/s and your neighbours in the town over have been upgraded to 10Gb/s?

How about 20 years from now when you are still stuck on 30Mb/s and your neighbours in the town over have been upgraded to 40Gb/s?

20 years from now you will be complaining how horribly slow it is and there is no way at all you can use Netflix 8k UHD VR which everyone else on 40Gb/s FTTH can easily do!

People in imagine areas are going to end up getting trapped by a very limited technology that can't scale in the future, if this ends up getting accepted by the NBP.

FTTH is the technology of the next 100 years. It is the only technology that will once and for all permanently solve the rural broadband problem.

chris_ie · 13-05-2016 11:21am

bk wrote: »

The problem is it won't end up a stop gap! If it ends up getting accepted as commercially reaching the NBP goals, then areas covered by it would end up excluded from the NBP subsidy.

That would end up meaning no subsidy to rollout FTTH in those areas, which would result in the stop gap becoming the permanent solution.

30Mb/s today might seem great today when you are stuck on 1Mb/s ADSL. But how are you going to feel when you are still only getting 30Mb/s 5 years from now when your neighbours in the next town over are getting 1Gb/s?

How about 10 years from now when you are still getting 30Mb/s and your neighbours in the town over have been upgraded to 10Gb/s?

How about 20 years from now when you are still stuck on 30Mb/s and your neighbours in the town over have been upgraded to 40Gb/s?

20 years from now you will be complaining how horribly slow it is and there is no way at all you can use Netflix 8k UHD VR which everyone else on 40Gb/s FTTH can easily do!

People in imagine areas are going to end up getting trapped by a very limited technology that can't scale in the future, if this ends up getting accepted by the NBP.

FTTH is the technology of the next 100 years. It is the only technology that will once and for all permanently solve the rural broadband problem.

Believe me I agree with everything you have said, hence why I said as long as its just a stop gap! Your reply makes it seem as if I said 30Mb was fine in the long run. My opinion is the complete opposite. I know too well the reasons that FTTH should be the only option used for the roll out.

Part of the NBP was supposedly future proofing. LTE may tick the current minimum 30Mb connection box but doesnt tick the future proof box. For that reason it should not affect the NBP.

Of course, this is what you would expect to happen but, as we've seen before, things change.

tvc15 · 13-05-2016 11:23am

The biggest worry I have about Imagine rolling this out is that they can't get 100% coverage no matter what, where does that leave the people unable to get LTE who instead of being grouped together are now dotted around, sometimes in the middle of an area that is completely served by LTE, do they get a fibre run or just left out completely?

ED E · 13-05-2016 11:40am

tvc15 wrote: »

The biggest worry I have about Imagine rolling this out is that they can't get 100% coverage no matter what, where does that leave the people unable to get LTE who instead of being grouped together are now dotted around, sometimes in the middle of an area that is completely served by LTE, do they get a fibre run or just left out completely?

People will be left out of the NBP, with any winner. Its going to happen. If we hit 96-98% of the population either in NBP or Commercial zones we'll be doing a stellar job.

plodder · 13-05-2016 11:41am

As far as I understand it the performance requirements of the NPB are 100% coverage with >30Mbit download and 99.95% availability. Surely, no wireless technology can deliver this except in very limited circumstances ... though looking at the report again, I see these are suggested requirements. The point is though, the coverage and availability figures are just as important as headline "download speed" and the politicians might need to be reminded of that.

Gonzo · 13-05-2016 12:26pm

I would be happier on my current unlimited 8 meg ADSL from Eir than I would be on a 30-60 meg Imagine wireless connection with a pathetic 20 GB per day download allowance.

for example yesterday morning I launched Steam to preload a game called Doom. It was roughly 53GB to download and it finished by about 11 pm last night, roughly taking 12 hours to download. I still had the game ready for the live activation at midnight.

If I was on Imagine wireless I would have to manage that download over 3 or 4 days (taking into account there would be other internet activities eating into this allowance), and may not be able to play the game till next week if I was on such a connection.

AlmightyCushion · 13-05-2016 12:38pm

Gonzo wrote: »

I would be happier on my current unlimited 8 meg ADSL from Eir than I would be on a 30-60 meg Imagine wireless connection with a pathetic 20 GB per day download allowance.

for example yesterday morning I launched Steam to preload a game called Doom. It was roughly 53GB to download and it finished by about 11 pm last night, roughly taking 12 hours to download. I still had the game ready for the live activation at midnight.

If I was on Imagine wireless I would have to manage that download over 3 or 4 days (taking into account there would be other internet activities eating into this allowance), and may not be able to play the game till next week if I was on such a connection.

I think someone above said that usage between midnight and 7AM don't count towards your allowance so it wouldn't be that bad. As long as you set the pre-load up during that time and it was mostly finished by the morning you'd be fine. Saying that I don't like the idea of having to manage my downloads like that.

Gonzo · 13-05-2016 12:44pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I think someone above said that usage between midnight and 7AM don't count towards your allowance so it wouldn't be that bad. As long as you set the pre-load up during that time and it was mostly finished by the morning you'd be fine. Saying that I don't like the idea of having to manage my downloads like that.

that is true alright but at same time leaving a computer running overnight every night to download without a worry and then making sure it's stopped by 7am is still too much hassle in terms of higher electricity bills. I would take a slower unlimited connection over a fast connection where your watching the clock all the time is just not for me.

guil · 13-05-2016 1:14pm

Gonzo wrote: »

that is true alright but at same time leaving a computer running overnight every night to download without a worry and then making sure it's stopped by 7am is still too much hassle in terms of higher electricity bills. I would take a slower unlimited connection over a fast connection where your watching the clock all the time is just not for me.

How would the electricity bill be any higher?

chris_ie · 13-05-2016 1:21pm

You're in a decent position then so Gonzo.

There are many of us with FWA providers where speeds go between 0.1Mb and 1.5Mb. Sure, we could go for Three (or whoever) 4G if its in our area but with lower caps again, higher monthly fee, possible charges outside of the cap and speeds dropping alot due to contention, then that's not a great solution either. Then there are those who cant get anything at all.

Again, I am all for FTTH being the only option for the NBP. It would be ridiculous for areas to be excluded because Imagine LTE was covering them. LTE isn't future proof and the NBP know that the same issue would arise again in future. They already screwed up with the Three mess the last time and they seem to be attempting to do things right.

So for many of us, its either stay with 0.1-1.5Mb for the next 5 or 6 years or make use of something like Imagine LTE. They are rolling out whether we like it or not. Its easy for those who have stable connections to say "I wouldn't sign up" etc.

If I had a decent connection that stayed around 8Mb min I'd be happier and less likely to switch too.

chris_ie · 13-05-2016 1:28pm

guil wrote: »

How would the electricity bill be any higher?

I would have thought less, faster download, less time requiring the PC to be on. There are apps to shutdown after download completes also. Plus the added bonus that you not hogging all the bandwidth for 11 hours of the day when others want to use it.

bk · 13-05-2016 1:52pm

chris_ie wrote: »

Believe me I agree with everything you have said, hence why I said as long as its just a stop gap! Your reply makes it seem as if I said 30Mb was fine in the long run. My opinion is the complete opposite. I know too well the reasons that FTTH should be the only option used for the roll out.

chris, I apologise if you felt I was attacking you, I didn't mean to suggest that. I suppose it is just my frustration coming out at the mess that the NBP is turning into.

I appreciate that you think it is a good stop gap measure and from a purely technical perspective you are absolutely correct. However I've a lot of experience of Irish politics and I genuinely fear that if people start championing this technology as good enough for now, that what should be a stop gap measure could quiet quickly turn into the permanent measure and non of us want that!

With the mess that the NBP is currently turning into, I can see it getting watered down and the future proof requirement getting dropped, so that a much inferior LTE solution can be rushed out to take the pressure off the rural politicians.

This would result in the areas covered by imagine dropping out of the NBP and posibly even worse, imagine winning the NBP contract and getting subsidy to rollout LTE to all rural homes.

This would result in no subsidy being available for FTTH and would mean 400,000 homes being stuck on imagine LTE in the long term with little hope of them ever getting FTTH.

Mark my words we are now dangerously close to exactly this happening.

This is why imagine are pushing so hard to say that they guarantee a minimum of 30Mb/s. The only reason why they would do that is to try and win the NBP contract and if they do, you can kiss good bye to rural FTTH. You will be stuck on 30Mb/s wireless with crappy 20GB per day caps for the next 20 years! :mad:

Gonzo · 13-05-2016 2:37pm

I was kinda thinking the same, with the NBP delayed for years that gives Imagine plenty of time to expand and cover many areas.

The government could foolishly see this as Imagine making the decision easy for them and just hand them the contract.

20+ years stuck on a wireless technology that isn't even super fast by today's standards, and if it was to be part of the NBP and the only game in town for rural Ireland it would be totally oversubscribed.

It could result in speed issues down the road that are worse than what rural Ireland is experiencing right now.

The government seem to excel at making a dogs dinner of rural broadband plans, so far the NBP is starting to head in the wrong direction very quickly, I really hope this is not the case and they go with a combination of Eir/Siro. They are the only 2 companies who can do the job properly.

chris_ie · 13-05-2016 2:45pm

Imagine seem to manage their current 30Mb promise by limiting the numbers of subscribers. To cover everyone it would cost them quite a bit more I'd imagine (no pun intended). They would, as Gonzo mentions, end up over subscribing and slowing everything down. Would this be in violation of the terms of the NBP as it stands? i.e. If a provider wins and then falls below the agreed speeds, what happens? Its insane that its still even a question whether FTTH will be used or not.

As Gonzo says, hopefully it will be Eir/Siro.

ItHurtsWhenIP · 13-05-2016 2:58pm

chris_ie wrote: »

Imagine seem to manage their current 30Mb promise by limiting the numbers of subscribers. To cover everyone it would cost them quite a bit more I'd imagine (no pun intended). They would, as Gonzo mentions, end up over subscribing and slowing everything down. Would this be in violation of the terms of the NBP as it stands? i.e. If a provider wins and then falls below the agreed speeds, what happens? Its insane that its still even a question whether FTTH will be used or not.

As Gonzo says, hopefully it will be Eir/Siro.

AFAIK they must meet the minimum of 30Mbps down / 6Mbps up at all times of the day, otherwise there are penalties.

I'd met with the principle officer of the DCENR, responsible for the NBP last year and he indicated that they would be including future proofing with increasing speeds over the lifetime of the NBP. Hopefully it is still in there.

If LTE can't be shown to meet those increases (which I doubt it could), then it won't be selected.

As has been touted above - it's likely Imagine are making a land grab of their own, to gobble up "potential" customers. If they service an area with good Broadband, then that area gets excluded from the NBP and everyone living under coverage of their masts will thus not see NBP intervention.

open eir will probably still roll out FTTH on their blue line project, including any areas covered by Imagine LTE.

I think i would be inclined to object if I heard Imagine were putting up a mast near me. I would prefer to be in the NBP (if it ever happens), than getting lumbered with a limited wireless solution.

KOR101 · 13-05-2016 2:59pm

It's too early to be this pessimistic. You would expect a lot of noise around election times and messy government formation. There must still be a good chance that all the thought and progress made on the NBP, and the realisation of the big advantages to fibre, will not be now thrown away, just because of some top of the head suggestions during the heat of things.

MajesticDonkey · 13-05-2016 3:00pm

All I can say at the moment is that I'm bloody glad I've started planning the setting up of a community broadband scheme in my area.

I've said it from the beginning about the NBP....it's almost always too good to be true with every government we get.

Johnboy1951 · 13-05-2016 3:03pm

Gonzo wrote: »

If I was on Imagine wireless I would have to manage that download over 3 or 4 days (taking into account there would be other internet activities eating into this allowance), and may not be able to play the game till next week if I was on such a connection.

No you wouldn't.
If you got ~50Mb/s during the Imagine 'off peak' you could download that 53GB in about 2.5 hours, give or take a little.
Doing it during the off peak times would not interfere with your daily 'cap'.

IMO, you would be very much better off with Imagine in the circumstance you describe.

marno21 · 13-05-2016 4:43pm

Is there any traffic limits as part of the NBP?

The ability to download 20Gb+ a day should be one of the cornerstones of the plan, not using a technology where access has to be rationed in order to maintain decent connectivity.

Johnboy1951 · 13-05-2016 4:53pm

marno21 wrote: »

Is there any traffic limits as part of the NBP?

No, that is up to the providers of the service.

The ability to download 20Gb+ a day should be one of the cornerstones of the plan, not using a technology where access has to be rationed in order to maintain decent connectivity.

legocrazy505 · 13-05-2016 5:22pm

marno21 wrote: »

Is there any traffic limits as part of the NBP?

The ability to download 20Gb+ a day should be one of the cornerstones of the plan, not using a technology where access has to be rationed in order to maintain decent connectivity.

Not in there but I would imagine the people would hopefully inform their TDs and local county council "taskforce" that to best utilise the utility a daily cap is a stupid idea.

waalaa · 14-05-2016 12:43am

Yikes, Imagine are really making a run for this. I haven't paid much attention to this but it is concerning that almost everything I hear in the media is focussed on "time", that it was delayed or it won't be finished until 2022 or something, the political pressure will be for the quick fix.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but this new department is also responsible for the Leader programme, they are hardly thinking they can marry the two up? Anybody in an NBP area apply for a grant for maybe 75% of the install cost, assuming some houses wouldn't want to pay anything, it would make more sense (in our governments eyes) to not string fibre past homes that aren't bothered about it.

pegasus1 · 15-05-2016 2:41pm

waalaa wrote: »

Yikes, Imagine are really making a run for this. I haven't paid much attention to this but it is concerning that almost everything I hear in the media is focussed on "time", that it was delayed or it won't be finished until 2022 or something, the political pressure will be for the quick fix.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but this new department is also responsible for the Leader programme, they are hardly thinking they can marry the two up? Anybody in an NBP area apply for a grant for maybe 75% of the install cost, assuming some houses wouldn't want to pay anything, it would make more sense (in our governments eyes) to not string fibre past homes that aren't bothered about it.

Wrong Wrong Wrong on your last...what happens in the future when one of those bypassed homes gets sold and bought by someone wanting FTTH...there in lies the problem...

waalaa · 15-05-2016 3:19pm

pegasus1 wrote: »

Wrong Wrong Wrong on your last...what happens in the future when one of those bypassed homes gets sold and bought by someone wanting FTTH...there in lies the problem...

I'm not saying it should happen just that it could.

KOR101 · 16-05-2016 2:19pm

Reality of rural broadband, Kildare (this morning) Mayo (on Monday)

http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/The_Pat_Kenny_Show/

Kash · 16-05-2016 3:24pm

Can I ask a potentially dumb question? There is the NBP and there is the FTTH plan. If you are not on one, are you on the other?

Johnboy1951 · 16-05-2016 3:46pm

Kash wrote: »

Can I ask a potentially dumb question? There is the NBP and there is the FTTH plan. If you are not on one, are you on the other?

There is no "FTTH plan" except any plan that commercial interests might concoct ....... such as that planned by eir along their "blue lines" and maybe a plan SIRO might come up with after their trials and initial roll out to a few locations.
The NBP (National Broadband Plan) has not yet been finalised so at present it is a proposed plan whose details are not yet set.

legocrazy505 · 16-05-2016 4:42pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

There is no "FTTH plan" except any plan that commercial interests might concoct ....... such as that planned by eir along their "blue lines" and maybe a plan SIRO might come up with after their trials and initial roll out to a few locations.
The NBP (National Broadband Plan) has not yet been finalised so at present it is a proposed plan whose details are not yet set.

We can however assume if you aren't on the blue lines you are definitely getting whatever NBP offers whenever the taskforces decide on the best taskforce to make a taskforce to enquiry about another taskforce to compile the taskforce to plan out the map.

I would guess if you aren't on the 100,000 Eir FTTH homes then you'll probably be on NBP given Eir's reputation for you know, actually completely things.

daraghwal · 16-05-2016 5:18pm

legocrazy505 wrote: »

We can however assume if you aren't on the blue lines you are definitely getting whatever NBP offers whenever the taskforces decide on the best taskforce to make a taskforce to enquiry about another taskforce to compile the taskforce to plan out the map.

I would guess if you aren't on the 100,000 Eir FTTH homes then you'll probably be on NBP given Eir's reputation for you know, actually completely things.

I'd say eir will do more than 100,000 but maybe not quite the 300,00 would they? I doubt they would stop the rollout before the contract is given out.

legocrazy505 · 16-05-2016 5:29pm

daraghwal wrote: »

I'd say eir will do more than 100,000 but maybe not quite the 300,00 would they? I doubt they would stop the rollout before the contract is given out.

Well there's no threat now until 2017. They'll still carry on but I'd say places who thought they would be seeing some improvement this year may have to wait even longer. Eir are the only fixed line provider doing anything in rural areas so they can kick back.

NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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