anti Islam rally

RobYourBuilder · 02-01-2015 2:20pm

Herb Powell wrote: »

Except time and time again, migrants have proven to be a net economic BENEFIT.

Not true.

The UK;

Immigrants who came to live in Britain from outside Europe cost the public purse nearly £120 billion over 17 years, a new report has shown.

The major academic study also found, however, that recent immigration from Europe – driven by the surge in arrivals from eastern European – gave the economy a £4.4 billion boost over the same period.

Experts from University College London also said native Britons made a negative contribution of £591 billion over the 17 years – because of the country’s massive deficit.

The report analysed figures from 1995 to 2011, during most of which the Labour government was pursuing vigorously pro-immigration policies.

It found that migrants from outside the European Economic Area (EEA) made a negative contribution to the public purse of £117.9 billion because they consumed more in public expenditure – including NHS costs, welfare hand-outs and education – than they contributed in taxes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11209234/Immigration-from-outside-Europe-cost-120-billion.html

EU wide;

Non-EU citizens aged 20-64 were in 2013 twice as likely (21.3%) to be unemployed in one of the EU's 28 member states compared to "nationals" (10.0%), new data from the EU's statistics office Eurostat shows.

The data also revealed that the employment rate was 56.1% for non-EU citizens, compared with 68.9% for citizens of the reporting country.

But large differences can be found within member states.

In Sweden, which has the biggest gap, the employment rate for non-EU citizens was 50.2% compared with 81.3% for nationals (-31.1 percentage points), followed by Belgium (-28.8), the Netherlands (-26.8), France (-22.0), Finland (-20.5) and Germany (-20.2).

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/social-europe-jobs/non-eu-citizens-twice-likely-be-unemployed-303834

And some unemployment stats from Ireland; http://www.esri.ie/news_events/latest_press_releases/ethnicity-and-nationality/index.xml

RobYourBuilder · 02-01-2015 2:27pm

ireland.man wrote: »

Good to hear!

So you mean you're in favour of increased immigration from Nigeria, among other countries, into the EU, including Ireland?

Only 38% of Africans in Ireland work.

Employment rates were also lower among Black African and Ethnic Minority EU individuals, 38 per cent and 51 per cent respectively compared to an average employment rate of 61 per cent for the sample population.

http://www.esri.ie/news_events/latest_press_releases/ethnicity-and-nationality/index.xml

There's a work permit system in place. If they have the skills required, they can avail of it. That's the only type of immigration we should be encouraging.

alwald · 02-01-2015 2:33pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

There's a work permit system in place. If they have the skills required, they can avail of it. That's the only type of immigration we should be encouraging.

As long as it's not based on religion then yes why not, BTW there is always a percentage of Asylum seekers that will be granted a visa to come to Europe, I believe that they are not allowed to work anyway.

RobYourBuilder · 02-01-2015 2:35pm

alwald wrote: »

I bet if you ask the entire community then the majority will vote for diversity, who wouldn't?? only racists in my point of view wouldn't vote for it.

Or people who like social cohesion.

In recent years, Putnam has been engaged in a comprehensive study of the relationship between trust within communities and their ethnic diversity. His conclusion based on over 40 cases and 30 000 people within the United States is that, other things being equal, more diversity in a community is associated with less trust both between and within ethnic groups. Although limited to American data, it puts into question both the contact hypothesis and conflict theory in inter-ethnic relations. According to conflict theory, distrust between the ethnic groups will rise with diversity, but not within a group. In contrast, contact theory proposes that distrust will decline as members of different ethnic groups get to know and interact with each other. Putnam describes people of all races, sex, socioeconomic statuses, and ages as "hunkering down," avoiding engagement with their local community—both among different ethnic groups and within their own ethnic group. Even when controlling for income inequality and crime rates, two factors which conflict theory states should be the prime causal factors in declining inter-ethnic group trust, more diversity is still associated with less communal trust.

Lowered trust in areas with high diversity is also associated with:

Lower confidence in local government, local leaders and the local news media.

Lower political efficacy – that is, confidence in one's own influence.

Lower frequency of registering to vote, but more interest and knowledge about politics and more participation in protest marches and social reform groups.

Higher political advocacy, but lower expectations that it will bring about a desirable result.

Less expectation that others will cooperate to solve dilemmas of collective action (e.g., voluntary conservation to ease a water or energy shortage).

Less likelihood of working on a community project.

Less likelihood of giving to charity or volunteering.

Fewer close friends and confidants.

Less happiness and lower perceived quality of life.

More time spent watching television and more agreement that "television is my most important form of entertainment".

Putnam published his data set from this study in 2001[4][5] and subsequently published the full paper in 2007.[6]

You will love this part;

Putnam has been criticized for the lag between his initial study and his publication of his article. In 2006, Putnam was quoted in the Financial Times as saying he had delayed publishing the article until he could "develop proposals to compensate for the negative effects of diversity" (quote from John Lloyd of Financial Times).[7] In 2007, writing in City Journal, John Leoquestioned whether this suppression of publication was ethical behavior for a scholar, noting that "Academics aren’t supposed to withhold negative data until they can suggest antidotes to their findings."[8] On the other hand, Putnam did release the data in 2001 and publicized this fact.[9] The proposals that the paper contains are located in a section called "Becoming Comfortable with Diversity" at the end of his article. This section has been criticized for lacking the rigor of the preceding sections. According to Ilana Mercer "Putnam concludes the gloomy facts with a stern pep talk".[10]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and_trust_within_communities

RobYourBuilder · 02-01-2015 2:39pm

alwald wrote: »

As long as it's not based on religion then yes why not, BTW there is always a percentage of Asylum seekers that will be granted a visa to come to Europe, I believe that they are not allowed to work anyway.

Asylum seekers don't come with a visa. Once they get a visa(refugee status, leave to remain etc.) then they are allowed work. Some countries, such as Sweden, allow them to work if they play ball with those processing their claims. Very few do(circa 20% iirc). I'll find the exact figure if you're interested.

alwald · 02-01-2015 2:47pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Asylum seekers don't come with a visa. Once they get a visa(refugee status, leave to remain etc.) then they are allowed work. Some countries, such as Sweden, allow them to work if they play ball with those processing their claims. Very few do(circa 20% iirc). I'll find the exact figure if you're interested.

The exact figure will be very interesting indeed (thanks in advance). In Ireland I believe that asylum seekers can't work, I need to double check that.

SeanW · 02-01-2015 2:58pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Or people who like social cohesion.

You will love this part;

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and_trust_within_communities

Oh dear ...

Grand Moff Tarkin · 02-01-2015 3:14pm

alwald wrote: »

The exact figure will be very interesting indeed (thanks in advance). In Ireland I believe that asylum seekers can't work, I need to double check that.

You are right.

RobYourBuilder · 02-01-2015 4:26pm

BERLIN, Jan 1 (Reuters) - One German in eight would join an anti-Muslim march if a rapidly-growing protest movement organized one in their home towns, according to an opinion poll published on Thursday.

The survey highlighted growing support in Germany, as in other European Union countries including Britain and Sweden, for parties and movements tapping into voter fears that mainstream politicians are too soft on immigration.

Some members of Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative bloc worry that they risk losing support to the euro-skeptic Alternative for Germany (AfD) party, which has shifted its focus to immigration and includes many who also back the PEGIDA protest movement -- Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamisation of the West.

PEGIDA is holding weekly rallies in the eastern city of Dresden, and attracted more than 17,000 people to a Dec. 22 rally. A few small marches have taken place in other towns, and it plans to stage further rallies in other German cities.

In her New Year address, Merkel urged Germans to turn their backs on PEGIDA's leaders, calling them racists full of hatred, and said Europe's biggest economy must welcome people fleeing conflict and war.

A poll of 1,006 people by Forsa for Germany's Stern magazine found 13 percent would attend an anti-Muslim march nearby. It also found 29 percent of people believed that Islam was having such an influence on life in Germany that the marches were justified.

While two thirds of those polled believed the idea of an 'Islamisation' of Germany was exaggerated, many Germans are concerned about the numbers of asylum seekers fleeing countries such as Syria.

Partly in response to its Nazi past, German asylum rules are among the most liberal in the world. The number of asylum-seekers arriving in Germany surged to about 200,000 in 2014, four times the numbers in 2012. Net immigration has hit a two-decade high.

AfD leader Bernd Lucke criticized Merkel's New Year address in comments due to appear in Friday's edition of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ) paper, accusing her of disrespecting citizens. A New Year address should unite rather than divide people, he said, accusing Merkel of branding all those who joined PEGIDA marches as anti-immigrant without listening to their views.

He said he saw no place for anti-immigrant sentiment in Germany, but that problems should be discussed properly to stop such views taking hold. (Reporting by Alexandra Hudson; Editing by Ruth Pitchford)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/01/germany-anti-muslim-marches_n_6403532.html

Be interesting to see how this plays out.

alwald · 02-01-2015 4:53pm

Let's look at this issue from a different angle, EU countries with a long immigration past (I will pick the main 2 which are France and the UK) have right now the third or fourth generation of Muslim families, They are EU citizens, they are British or French and as such they are citizens of these countries.

What's the best solution in your opinion, discriminate against their religion by having marches all over the place or integrate them even more in the society, the latter seems to be the obvious choice.

Lets say this German movement will succeed and will indeed stop immigrants from Muslim countries coming in, what will happen to German citizens who are Muslims?? will they trow them into the sea??

We are all aware that radicalization is a big issue, it would be stupid to say the opposite, but are these movements actions and slogans any helpful?

alwald · 02-01-2015 5:01pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Or people who like social cohesion.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and_trust_within_communities

Some people like living in harmony

http://www.dalailama.com/messages/religious-harmony

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20131028_dialogo-interculturale_en.html

nokia69 · 02-01-2015 5:02pm

Herb Powell wrote: »

Except time and time again, migrants have proven to be a net economic BENEFIT.

Oh please, you're really trying to use Thilo Sarrazin as an example of someone who is not racist? He's a fuccking racist hack. His opinions of the Turkish are disgusting.

Some choice quotes from Herr Sarrazin:

"Die Tuerken erobern Deutschland genauso, wie die Kosovaren das Kosovo erobert haben: durch eine hoehere Geburtenrate"

==> The Turks are conquering Germany just as the Kosovans conquered Kosovo: through a higher birth rate.
"Ich muss niemanden anerkennen, der vom Staat lebt, diesen Staat ablehnt, fuer die Ausbildung seiner Kinder nicht vernuenftig sorgt und staendig neue kleine Kopftuchmaedchen produziert"

==> I don't have to acknowledge anyone who lives off the state, who rejects this state, who doesn't properly look after the education of their children and who constantly produces new little headscarf-girls

which part of this is racist ?

the Serbs no longer control Kosovo, thats a fact

why is not wanting the same thing to happen in Germany racist

Billy86 · 02-01-2015 5:11pm

nokia69 wrote: »

which part of this is racist ?

the Serbs no longer control Kosovo, thats a fact

why is not wanting the same thing to happen in Germany racist

"Who constantly produce new little headscarf girls" is a very loaded comment with a clear intention of dehumanising (who "produces" babies?) and creating a strong sense of otherness with the "headscarf girls" reference.

Herb Powell · 02-01-2015 5:15pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/01/germany-anti-muslim-marches_n_6403532.html

Be interesting to see how this plays out.

Well, on the other hand, that's 7 in 8 Germans who don't want to attend.

nokia69 wrote: »

which part of this is racist ?

the Serbs no longer control Kosovo, thats a fact

why is not wanting the same thing to happen in Germany racist

You're not getting it, try replacing the word "Turks" with the word "Jews" and see how it sounds to you.

RobYourBuilder · 02-01-2015 5:23pm

Herb Powell wrote: »

Well, on the other hand, that's 7 in 8 Germans who don't want to attend.

If the poll is in anyway correct, that means that there are millions of Germans willing to march against Islam.

RobYourBuilder · 02-01-2015 5:41pm

nokia69 wrote: »

which part of this is racist ?

the Serbs no longer control Kosovo, thats a fact

why is not wanting the same thing to happen in Germany racist

The book sold over 1.5 million copies. Of course the lads want to pick at a few controversial phrases instead of getting into a debate about the meat and bones of the book. Sarrazin advocates a restrictive immigration policy (with the exception of the highly skilled) and the reduction of state welfare benefits. What's the problem there?

ireland.man · 02-01-2015 6:31pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Only 38% of Africans in Ireland work.

http://www.esri.ie/news_events/latest_press_releases/ethnicity-and-nationality/index.xml

There's a work permit system in place. If they have the skills required, they can avail of it. That's the only type of immigration we should be encouraging.

You said “Only 38% of Africans in Ireland work” but the actual report states in full: “Black Africans have the highest rate of unemployment and the lowest rate of employment; this group also reports the highest rates of discrimination both in the workplace and when looking for work”. That's important to include.

Apologies for asking too many questions but just so we can pin down what our values are so we can contrast and compare:

Do you think there's anything wrong with mixed race marriage in Ireland Are those children Irish in your view?
Do you support gay adoption and marriage?
Do you support increased support and intake of Christian asylum seekers from places where they're being persecuted by Islamists like Nigeria?
Would you consider yourself a feminist, or support feminism?

nokia69 · 02-01-2015 6:32pm

why do you keep asking people questions that have little to do with the thread

Nodin · 02-01-2015 6:35pm

nokia69 wrote: »

why do you keep asking people questions that have little to do with the thread

I'd imagine they tie in someway or other.

RobYourBuilder · 02-01-2015 6:35pm

I quoted exactly from the report.

ireland.man · 02-01-2015 6:36pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

I quoted exactly from the report.

You did! I'm not implying you were misquoting it, just felt the context for the stats was important too.

nokia69 · 02-01-2015 6:39pm

Nodin wrote: »

I'd imagine they tie in someway or other.

what do you think about global warming

ireland.man · 02-01-2015 6:42pm

nokia69 wrote: »

what do you think about global warming

I think climate change is happening, and it'll get worse in the coming decades. I think it's a man-made phenomenon too. I know this doesn't have much to do with the thread but will you humour me and answer the questions? Just briefly, yes or no answers basically. (I'm guessing your answers to my questions will be very close to my own anyway).

RobYourBuilder · 02-01-2015 6:51pm

That's important to include.

Oh yes. I'm sure equality.ie made sure that caveat was attached to the report.

Why do you have no job? Discrimination! Righteo.

Asians have an unemployment rate of 12%. Why are they doing relatively well, whilst other immigrant groups are doing appallingly?

Also, the much maligned "drunken Irish" in Australia have an unemployment rate of 2.6% and are the highest performing European emigrant group over there, according to the most recent census. Outperforming the locals too. Yet it's open season on them in some parts of the media and Irish society, yet it's sacrilege to call out immigrant groups living here with extraordinarily high levels of unemployment.

nokia69 · 02-01-2015 6:52pm

there is nothing wrong with mixed race marriage, yes the children would be Irish if they were born here or spent long enough here

I see no problem with gay marriage or adoption

no I'm not a feminist, because I believe in equal rights

Grand Moff Tarkin · 02-01-2015 7:01pm

ireland.man wrote: »

You said “Only 38% of Africans in Ireland work” but the actual report states in full: “Black Africans have the highest rate of unemployment and the lowest rate of employment; this group also reports the highest rates of discrimination both in the workplace and when looking for work”. That's important to include.

Apologies for asking too many questions but just so we can pin down what our values are so we can contrast and compare:
Do you think there's anything wrong with mixed race marriage in Ireland Are those children Irish in your view?

Do you support gay adoption and marriage?

Do you support increased support and intake of Christian asylum seekers from places where they're being persecuted by Islamists like Nigeria?

Would you consider yourself a feminist, or support feminism?

Have you ever had the chance to work with black African men?

RobYourBuilder · 02-01-2015 7:02pm

Unemployment among the Irish community in Australia is just 2.4%.

http://www.businessinsider.com/australia-is-the-land-of-plenty-for-the-biggest-wave-of-irish-emigrants-in-a-generation-2013-3?IR=T

I was out by .2%. Quoting from memory.

ireland.man · 02-01-2015 7:05pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

http://www.businessinsider.com/australia-is-the-land-of-plenty-for-the-biggest-wave-of-irish-emigrants-in-a-generation-2013-3?IR=T

I was out by .2%. Quoting from memory.

You're comparing an incredibly young, monolithic population of workers who were almost all given work permits to dozens of nationalities who came to Europe in a variety of ways in more stable numbers over a much longer period of time than the Irish who went to Oz in droves since 2007.

Anyway, no pressure for you if you're uncomfortable with the questions but will you be answering them?

nokia69 · 02-01-2015 7:07pm

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Have you ever had the chance to work with black African men?

I have, most of them were grand

MRnotlob606 · 02-01-2015 7:08pm

The leader is a convicted drug dealer

anti Islam rally

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