Statement from NASRPC

Sparks · 15-06-2014 10:17pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

All the best fighters have a knack of knowing when a fight is just about to start.

I don't even know where to start with how stupid that statement is, I really don't.

How does burning time, money and manpower and pissing off every ally we had in the Department and the Dail to start a fight we have no chance at all of winning and which we have comprehensively lost every time we've tried it in the past, get called "knowing when the fight is about to start"???

yubabill1 · 15-06-2014 10:19pm

Sparks wrote: »

I don't even know where to start with how stupid that statement is, I really don't.

How does burning time, money and manpower and pissing off every ally we had in the Department and the Dail to start a fight we have no chance at all of winning and which we have comprehensively lost every time we've tried it in the past, get called "knowing when the fight is about to start"???

Lad, you don't have to start a fight to get into one.

juice1304 · 15-06-2014 10:20pm

Sparks wrote: »

Someone mentioned that it's a photo of an airsoft shop, which wouldn't surprise me in the least...

That was me.:eek::D:D:pac:

Sparks · 15-06-2014 10:23pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

Lad, you don't have to start a fight to get into one.

Apparently not, because if this kicks off, it'll land on all the rest of us who just wanted to get on with things and didn't think flinging poo at the Minister, the Commissioner, every TD around and half the Gardai was a very good idea for the long run...

yubabill1 · 15-06-2014 10:28pm

Sparks wrote: »

Apparently not, because if this kicks off, it'll land on all the rest of us who just wanted to get on with things and didn't think flinging poo at the Minister, the Commissioner, every TD around and half the Gardai was a very good idea for the long run...

Like I said - you don't have to start a fight to be in one.

My reading is that it's kicked off and it's going to be dirty.

Sparks · 15-06-2014 10:31pm

That, or the Minister is subtly saying "Would you please sod off, I'm busy" to people who're poking her!
Maybe it's time the people who are being "represented" by those people had a quiet word and asked them to calm the feck down and not give a cause to a government that are fairly desperate for anything they can throw under a bus to distract people...

yubabill1 · 15-06-2014 10:39pm

Sparks wrote: »

That, or the Minister is subtly saying "Would you please sod off, I'm busy" to people who're poking her!
Maybe it's time the people who are being "represented" by those people had a quiet word and asked them to calm the feck down and not give a cause to a government that are fairly desperate for anything they can throw under a bus to distract people...

Interesting.

We're all disappointed this has reared its head again. Surprised the new minister got around to it.

The last bit reminds me of the danger of rescuing a drowning man.

Let's hope I'm right about Labour getting the jitters.

Sparks · 15-06-2014 10:41pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

The last bit reminds me of the danger of rescuing a drowning man.

Yup, pretty much...

bravestar · 15-06-2014 11:40pm

Sparks wrote: »

Someone mentioned that it's a photo of an airsoft shop, which wouldn't surprise me in the least...

Maybe, but I doubt an airsoft shop would have a springfield armory stand that those XD's are on and the version of the FN P90 is the FN PS90, which is the civilian semi auto version. Most airsoft shops want their gear to look like military stuff, not civi stuff.

Grizzly 45 · 16-06-2014 1:03am

bravestar wrote: »

Maybe, but I doubt an airsoft shop would have a springfield armory stand that those XD's are on and the version of the FN P90 is the FN PS90, which is the civilian semi auto version. Most airsoft shops want their gear to look like military stuff, not civi stuff.

Dont forget BS that the real gun makers are getting into this airsoft stuff as well and are allowing all their accessories brands and fake guns to be sold under liscense.So it could be that any dealer could have a fake "real" show stand.

However the pic is the typical lurid journal.ie cut'n paste stock photo of a gun store in the USA,and put in this article to scare and enthrall the "bots who read this clickbait site as to what horrors might be in an irish gunstore.

Lets face it ,if you are dealing with morons who think the 2nd amendment is part of Irish legislation,what hope have ya on a logical debate there??
If the journal.ie was actualy paper,I wouldnt use it to wipe my ass.:mad:

Sparks · 16-06-2014 1:07am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

what hope have ya on a logical debate there?

None. The point isn't the people arguing; it's the silent majority reading and showing them that the article is wrong, that we're not a threat, that the laws are already more than restrictive enough to protect them and that the whole thing's a non-story. That's about the only reason I post on threads like that (it's an old habit).

Cass · 16-06-2014 1:29am

rowa wrote: »

Most airsoft shops want their gear to look like military stuff, not civi stuff.

I get what you're saying, but the average Joe only sees guns. Look at these:

All airsoft, all from Irish vendors. 99% of people cannot tell the difference and other than knowing what makes/types are not allowed i dare say a lot of shooting folk would not be able to tell an airsoft from the real thing by just glancing/looking at it.

tac foley · 16-06-2014 9:41am

Cass wrote: »

i dare say a lot of shooting folk would not be able to tell an airsoft from the real thing by just glancing/looking at it.

I proved in a Crown Court that it was impossible to determine the difference between a quality Airsoft replication - Tokyo Marui, Classic Army et al - when seen on CCTV. As a former Expert Witness this was part of my remit - to determine - if possible - if the object being used by the perpetrator was a real firearm or a blank-firing replica/Airsoft replica. Only TWICE in over forty cases that I dealt with was it possible to tell with any degree of certainty.

Case 1 - the SIG550 [yes, you read it correctly] used in a corner store robbery in Co. Durham was a Tokyo Marui airsoft replica. The store-owner had recently upgraded his CCTV system to full digital imagery, and the warning label on the right-hand side of the receiver could be clearly seen.

Case 2 - What seemed to be a Beretta Mod 92 had a polished-steel barrel unlike any 'real steel'.

The other cases were totally convincing, insofar as it was impossible to say with any degree of confidence that that were either real or replica.

One 'gun' recovered from behind a fence where it had been seen to have been thrown by the escaping crook was, in fact, a freely-available [over 18] transparent model Glock pistol that had been sprayed black.

tac

Sparks · 17-06-2014 2:42pm

And in some relevant news, Justice Peter Charleton was just appointed to the Supreme Court.

So if anyone's thinking "Oh, we can go to court to save <whatever>".... you'd now be making the argument to the guy who said that "a reasonable person is entitled to feel alarmed at the proliferation of handguns" and whose decision overturned the precedent from 70 prior cases to say that the Super could take into account the kind of firearm the licence was being sought for instead of just the applicant.

I wouldn't bet the contents of a used nappy on those odds.

yubabill1 · 17-06-2014 4:26pm

You know, all these mass shootings in foreign countries are being used as a stick to beat vetted Irish firearms holders with.

This judge can't really claim to hear a case involving firearms licensing on its merits, if what you quote him as saying is true (which I do not doubt BTW, Sparks).

But it has to be said, if Irish gun lobbyists are going to behave like the American NRA, then they can expect short shrift in Ireland, because all our politicians are of the US Democratic Party persuasion. They don't even understand US Republicans.

And the US Democrats are anti-gun, for anyone who is not interested in US politics.

rowa · 17-06-2014 6:49pm

http://www.thejournal.ie/frances-fitzgerald-garda-commissioner-1522872-Jun2014/

Sikamick · 18-06-2014 1:32am

rowa wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/frances-fitzgerald-garda-commissioner-1522872-Jun2014/

I think she is going to be a hard nut to crack, she will listen to the permanent Government and it will all depend on how they bend her ear.

Rowa the shooting sport in this country is a minority sport with sections within that even more minority and those senior persons within the sporting bodies / organisations have their own agendas and don't give a dame about the rest of us and may push her to do something that we wont like or even have a say in.

Sikamick

Sparks · 18-06-2014 11:51am

Sikamick wrote: »

I think she is going to be a hard nut to crack, she will listen to the permanent Government and it will all depend on how they bend her ear.

That "permanent Government" has just massively changed sikamick. A new head of the DoJ fireams unit, a new Commissioner in the AGS, new people in Ballistics, lots of new faces.

Problem is, people have been throwing sand in those new faces.

tac foley · 18-06-2014 12:08pm

Just as a matter of interest, are all these new people as knowledgeable about firearms and the current law pertaining to their legal or illegal ownership as their predecessors, particularly in the technically complex and increasingly controversial area of ballistics?

It has to be admitted that some very 'interesting' takes on firearms-related physics have come from that particular direction over the last few years.

It seems to me that these new people are going to need all the help and advice that they are prepared to listen to, especially from their 'customers' - the law-abiding citizens of the Republic who have been entrusted with firearms.

tac

Sparks · 18-06-2014 12:11pm

The particular direction you're referring to tac, I don't know what the new folks' qualifications are. All the noises I've heard about the new DoJ head are good, as to the Minister and Commissioner, well, there's still so much disruption at that level that we don't know if the current acting Commissioner will get the nod for the permanent role and we don't know if the Minister will be the Minister by year's end (both because of her involvement in the Mother&Baby Homes scandal and because the entire government is under such pressure right now).

Basicly, now is the time to be building bridges, not burning them down.

tac foley · 18-06-2014 12:15pm

Thanks for that, Sparks, and yes, I agree wholeheartedly, hence my last sentence and the words 'help and advice'.

tac

yubabill1 · 18-06-2014 3:38pm

tac foley wrote: »

Ju

It seems to me that these new people are going to need all the help and advice that they are prepared to listen to, especially from their 'customers' - the law-abiding citizens of the Republic who have been entrusted with firearms.

tac

Sparks wrote: »

Basicly, now is the time to be building bridges, not burning them down.

We all know that gun crime is a hot potato with DoJ/minister right now and it looks like we are a soft target.

A counter to "some nut going AWOL with a gun in a school" could be that the Irish are so law-abiding that they didn't take to the streets like in Spain and Greece recently, but waited to protest by exercising their democratic rights in the local elections.

Won't find too many firearms holders in the Occupy protest, I would wager - they have too much to lose by being civilly disobedient, even if they agree with the sentiment.

Another example would be the general compliance with law and order during the 25 years of the Troubles.

QED the Irish are a law-abiding people in general.

Just trying out an argument.

Yuba.

Grizzly 45 · 18-06-2014 4:50pm

It's a pretty good one Yuba,except it seems they are already taking their que from the uber diktat in Brussells.Specifically comrade Malmstroms much discredited report on "firearms proliferation" in the EU. IOW let the senior boys& girls make the rules on that in Brussells as shure we wouldnt know a thing about them things here in Ireland now!Make a few referrel to "American gun culture" and that will get everyone hopping in our favour back home."
IOW lazy politcal thinking from a tempoary head of a govt dept.Its more what the permanent govt thinks on these matters that is what I worry about.Ministers come and go..They stay until they are 65.:(

Sparks · 18-06-2014 4:52pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

They stay until they are 65.:(

...except that they don't. They stay in the civil service until they retire or quit, yes, but that's not the same thing as staying in the one post for forty years (unless they've done something wrong and are being punished...)

yubabill1 · 18-06-2014 6:57pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

IOW let the senior boys& girls make the rules on that in Brussells as shure we wouldnt know a thing about them things here in Ireland now!Make a few referrel to "American gun culture" and that will get everyone hopping in our favour back home."
IOW lazy politcal thinking from a tempoary head of a govt dept.Its more what the permanent govt thinks on these matters that is what I worry about.Ministers come and go.:(

Was one of them civil servants once - they are there to take orders at the end of the day.

this "public safety" BS argument will be won or lost in the likes of the Journal.ie and other rags: I complained about the pejorative picture used in the firearms oversight article, as well as a potentially defamatory comment about "a nut with a gun in a school" to no avail.
The (transient) government has an army of unpaid trolls, sock puppets and paid shills all over social media:

They fly kites, try out arguments and defend government decisions incessantly.

So we need to fight the inevitable emotive argument with another emotive argument -

The innocent boy shot accidentally in a gun attack vs. the stoical Irish respecting the rule of law in the teeth of austerity, for example.

Sparks · 19-06-2014 1:45pm

Not a PQ, but a statement in the Dail from the Minister:

Garda strategy for tackling gun crime involves targeted and intelligence-based operations, often disrupting and preventing incidents before harm is caused, as well as detecting and prosecuting those involved. Much of this work goes unheralded but it is carried out with great determination by the men and women of An Garda Síochána, who can themselves face great risk in taking on armed criminals.

The robust Garda response to violent crime has led to firearms offences decreasing last year by 7%, and the number of crime incidents in which a firearm was involved was also down, by more than 7%. However, I accept all the points made by Deputy Conaghan on the horrific nature of the incident. The precise deployment of resources is a matter for the Garda Commissioner. I have discussed the policing situation in Ballyfermot in general terms with her and been assured that the Garda is working with the community and providing the best possible support on the ground. I am informed that at present there are 198 gardaí in the Clondalkin-Ballyfermot district.

The sale and possession of legally held firearms in this jurisdiction is highly regulated. However, my Department is currently conducting a review of firearms legislation after which I will engage in broader consultations ahead of preparing any legislative changes arising from the review. Ahead of completion of the review, I would point out that our criminal law already rightly provides heavy penalties for weapons offences and mandatory minimum penalties are in place for certain firearms offences. The Garda also has considerable powers available to it in tackling serious and armed crime, and they have been supplemented further by the recent DNA database legislation which has just been passed in both Houses. The Bill was completed last week in the Seanad. When established, the DNA database will have the capacity to link suspects to unsolved crimes using forensic evidence, and will greatly assist the Garda in investigating crime.

The acting Garda Commissioner is aware that if she believes other legislative measures or steps would assist in tackling armed and serious crime they will be given the most serious consideration by me. I take serious note of the views expressed by the Deputy during the debate. Our thoughts are with the family of the young victim of this shooting. We are concerned with the well-being of the family during this very difficult period and look forward to the recovery of the victim.

Cass · 19-06-2014 1:53pm

I know this is obvious but how can an educated person, we assume they must be to hold a position in the Dail, link gun crime carried out by thugs with unlicensed/illegal firearms, be lumped into the same sentence as legal firearm holders. What possible use could reviewing a heavily restricted sport do?

I already know the answer (appeasing the general public that they are "cracking down on crime/being see to do things), but i need to ask it none the less.

Sparks · 19-06-2014 2:07pm

I'm not sure she's directly conflating the two, in fact that first part of the bolded sentence "The sale and possession of legally held firearms in this jurisdiction is highly regulated" isn't a bad thing - it implies she already knows how draconian our laws currently are. The rest, about the review, I'd expect given how much inept poking of the bear has been going on in the last few months.

Can't poke the bear without getting your face clawed off by a 1200lb carnivorous predator with four-inch claws...

Cass · 19-06-2014 2:17pm

Initial impressions would leave you with a "m'eh" type feeling. Not good, but not bad. However, and i know they have no reason to make a distinction, it annoys me to see legally held firearms lumped into illegal activities with illegal firearms. I know it's nothing new, but how refreshing would it be to see a Minister make a clear distinction that their concern lies not with the already harshly regulated firearm industry, but with criminal activities.

I said this on another thread, but i wish people/"Coalitions" would leave the matter. All that is being done is adding fuel to the fire which can burn us. Figth your corner, but when it's time to do so.

yubabill1 · 19-06-2014 7:44pm

......The robust Garda response to violent crime has led to firearms offences decreasing last year by 7%, and the number of crime incidents in which a firearm was involved was also down, by more than 7%. However, I accept all the points made by Deputy Conaghan on the horrific nature of the incident.
......The sale and possession of legally held firearms in this jurisdiction is highly regulated. However, my Department is currently conducting a review of firearms legislation after which I will engage in broader consultations ahead of preparing any legislative changes arising from the review. Ahead of completion of the review, I would point out that our criminal law already rightly provides heavy penalties for weapons offences and mandatory minimum penalties are in place for certain firearms offences.
...The acting Garda Commissioner is aware that if she believes other legislative measures or steps would assist in tackling armed and serious crime they will be given the most serious consideration by me.

Reading these points in isolation, I see an emphasis on tackling gun crime, while mentioning the review as a garnish?

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Statement from NASRPC

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County