Statement from NASRPC

Sparks · 14-06-2014 1:52am

10 June 2014

Pádraig MacLochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
453. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if she or the Garda Commissioner have commissioned an independent risk assessment in accordance with accepted best internationally recognised standards to determine the actual risk associated with lawful firearms ownership having regard to the legal requirements that apply to firearms licence applicants in this jurisdiction; if no such risk assessment has been undertaken, her views on whether this should be undertaken before any new legislative proposals are considered; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [24701/14]

Pádraig MacLochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
454. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if she will meet representatives of various sports shooting associations regarding the maladministration of the firearms licensing laws by the Garda Síochána and whose arguments have been supported by almost 600 court judgements; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [24702/14]

Pádraig MacLochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
455. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality having regard to the widespread disquiet among sports shooting organisations at the manner in which the Garda has administered the firearms licensing code over the past four years, the enormous number of court judgements against the Garda arising from their members' complaints and the importance of the integrity of the firearms licensing code for public safety, if she plans to include an examination of the way the Garda conducted the administration of the system in any of the statutory reviews into the Garda and its operations which are planned; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [24703/14]

Frances Fitzgerald (Minister, Department of Justice and Equality; Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
I propose to take Questions Nos. 453 to 455, inclusive, together.
As the Deputy is aware, in light of public safety concerns highlighted by the Garda Síochána and difficulties in the interpretation of the legislation expressed by members of the Judiciary, my Department is currently examining key policy, legislative, administrative and other issues relating to firearms licensing in conjunction with the Garda Síochána. I expect to receive and consider a report in relation to these matters in the near future. When I have considered that report I will consider what further action is necessary in relation to the firearms licensing system, including the proposal from interest groups for an examination of relevant administrative issues by the Garda Inspectorate.

Officials of my Department met key interest groups in late 2013 and early 2014 who set out their concerns in relation to a range of issues regarding firearms licensing at that time. These interest groups have also communicated their views directly to me, as well as to all Oireachtas members. Further consultation with relevant stakeholders will take place when I have considered the report and before any decisions are finalised in relation to proposals for change to the firearms licensing system. I will decide on the nature of the consultation and what meetings are appropriate at the time I am considering the report.

In so far as a risk assessment is concerned, I am advised that the draft report has regard to recent relevant EU Commission reports and developments in other jurisdictions in relation to public safety. However, I should say that is difficult to see how any risk assessment could foresee the tragic events in Dunblane, Scotland in 2006, Utoya, Norway in 2011, Sandy Hook, Connecticut in 2012 or Santa Barbara, California in May 2014. Mass shootings are happening with increasing frequency and a common theme is that the firearms used are legally owned. I think it is only right that we consider options now, rather than endure a similar tragedy here, when people will rightly ask why we as legislators did nothing to prevent it.

And that's exactly what we were warning about when we pointed out that poking at the Minister at this time was a spectacularly bad idea. The review, which would have died a death, has now been beaten back to life by the "Coalition" who are the people the minister is talking about, and whomever in that coalition has been speaking to her has given her such a bad impression of us that she's looking at mass shootings when thinking about reviewing the firearms act.

Ye ever think maybe our worst enemies weren't in the government or the gardai lads?

tac foley · 14-06-2014 8:48am

Let's not put too fine a point on it, Sparks, in all cases except one, the guns were legally owned by head-cases with perceived grievances and internal mental problems - at Sandy Hook the guns were acquired by the shooter from the legal owner.

In any case, I know of NO shooting in Scotland in 2006. The Dunblane Massacre, in which a lone pedophile with a grievance [that he took as far as Buckingham Palace!], and had been subject to a recommendation that all his guns be taken off him, took place in March 1996. It is alleged to have ended in suicide. It's not that difficult to get dates right - after all, events like this are NOT happening every day.

tac

PS - the worthy gentleman missed out on the 1987 Hungerford Massacre [another nutter with personal issues - ended in suicide] and the 2011 Cumbrian Massacre [another person, not THAT nuts, who had personal issues] - that ended in suicide, too.

Chiparus · 14-06-2014 10:47am

tac foley wrote: »

Let's not put too fine a point on it, Sparks, in all cases except one, the guns were legally owned by head-cases with perceived grievances and internal mental problems - at Sandy Hook the guns were acquired by the shooter from the legal owner.

In any case, I know of NO shooting in Scotland in 2006. The Dunblane Massacre, in which a lone pedophile with a grievance [that he took as far as Buckingham Palace!], and had been subject to a recommendation that all his guns be taken off him, took place in March 1996. It is alleged to have ended in suicide. It's not that difficult to get dates right - after all, events like this are NOT happening every day.

tac

PS - the worthy gentleman missed out on the 1987 Hungerford Massacre [another nutter with personal issues - ended in suicide] and the 2011 Cumbrian Massacre [another person, not THAT nuts, who had personal issues] - that ended in suicide, too.

The cumbrian shooting was very sinister with regards to the background of the shooter.

Dian Cecht · 14-06-2014 11:18am

The Ministers reply, which Sparks put in bold, really nails her colours to the mast. It looks like she's not going to be doing us any favours anyway! Shatter didn't even go that far :eek:

Looks like a right royal shafting is on the cards once again instigated, approved & assisted by "our own" :mad:

rowa · 14-06-2014 12:38pm

More than likely it was someone in the doj/gardai telling the new minister horror stories about what would happen to her political career if someone went on the rampage with a legally held firearm.

http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-gun-amnesty-1517125-Jun2014/

rowa · 14-06-2014 12:52pm

tac foley wrote: »

Let's not put too fine a point on it, Sparks, in all cases except one, the guns were legally owned by head-cases with perceived grievances and internal mental problems - at Sandy Hook the guns were acquired by the shooter from the legal owner.

In any case, I know of NO shooting in Scotland in 2006. The Dunblane Massacre, in which a lone pedophile with a grievance [that he took as far as Buckingham Palace!], and had been subject to a recommendation that all his guns be taken off him, took place in March 1996. It is alleged to have ended in suicide. It's not that difficult to get dates right - after all, events like this are NOT happening every day.

tac

PS - the worthy gentleman missed out on the 1987 Hungerford Massacre [another nutter with personal issues - ended in suicide] and the 2011 Cumbrian Massacre [another person, not THAT nuts, who had personal issues] - that ended in suicide, too.

Dunblane and hungerford were completely avoidable, in so far as both of the shooters were known to have serious issues. Ryan was a walther mitty type, and hamilton had his firearms removed after he threatened a child who had strayed into his garden with a loaded browning high-power, then the police returned them.

Sparks · 14-06-2014 1:54pm

tac foley wrote: »

Let's not put too fine a point on it, Sparks, in all cases except one, the guns were legally owned by head-cases with perceived grievances and internal mental problems - at Sandy Hook the guns were acquired by the shooter from the legal owner.

So,
(a) "acquired" here means "shot and killed his own mother to get them when the law successfully prevented him getting them himself";
(b) The details in most if not all of these cases usually show that the existing law would have prevented the shooting, if only they'd been adhered to properly;
(c) The Minister is a woman, so "the worthy gentleman" is not only a douchey form of address, but is erroneous to boot.

Sparks · 14-06-2014 2:15pm

Dian Cecht wrote: »

The Ministers reply, which Sparks put in bold, really nails her colours to the mast. It looks like she's not going to be doing us any favours anyway!

Except that I don't think those were her colours to begin with, I think some of our own just waded in with both feet and got everyone's back up at the worst possible time and this is the end result.

Funny really, you'd think after the last decade we'd have learnt how to do things differently

Dian Cecht · 14-06-2014 2:19pm

The impending review & the shooting of the little lad in Dublin (hope he's OK), which is reported as not criminal/gang related, and the subsequent outcry by the public & with talk of mass shooting worldwide by the Minister has me worried

Dian Cecht · 14-06-2014 2:25pm

Sparks wrote: »

Except that I don't think those were her colours to begin with, I think some of our own just waded in with both feet and got everyone's back up at the worst possible time and this is the end result.

Funny really, you'd think after the last decade we'd have learnt how to do things differently

Unfortunately the same people are still there doing the same ****e so why expect things to be different

From the little I know about it there are self appointed groups & individuals out there who are talking to the Minister & DOJ and claim they represent shooters & hunters and they don't ever seem to ask those they represent what they actually want

Where's my golf clubs :rolleyes:

tac foley · 14-06-2014 2:29pm

Sparks wrote: »

So,
(a) "acquired" here means "shot and killed his own mother to get them when the law successfully prevented him getting them himself";
(b) The details in most if not all of these cases usually show that the existing law would have prevented the shooting, if only they'd been adhered to properly;
(c) The Minister is a woman, so "the worthy gentleman" is not only a douchey form of address, but is erroneous to boot.

Totally agree with your first two points.

Sorry about mixing up the last point, but where I live, Frances/Francis is a man's name. No slur or 'douche-ness' was intended.

tac

Sparks · 14-06-2014 2:40pm

Dian Cecht wrote: »

The impending review & the shooting of the little lad in Dublin (hope he's OK), which is reported as not criminal/gang related, and the subsequent outcry by the public & with talk of mass shooting worldwide by the Minister has me worried

The 6-year-old, thankfully, is out of critical condition and expected to recover.
But it is being reported as being criminal/gang related. Some thug wanted to shoot another thug and the kid was hit in the crossfire apparently.

juice1304 · 14-06-2014 3:16pm

.This incident is a stark reminder of the dangers of a gun culture and the men and women of An Garda Síochána have the full support of the Minister and local communities for the work they do day in day out in counteracting the activities of those who show such a callous disregard for human life.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/child-shooting-garda-following-definite-line-inquiry-call-121244535.html#VWT5URW

I dont think it is going to be looking good for us regardless. but things like this worry me.

Dian Cecht · 14-06-2014 3:29pm

Sparks wrote: »

The 6-year-old, thankfully, is out of critical condition and expected to recover.
But it is being reported as being criminal/gang related. Some thug wanted to shoot another thug and the kid was hit in the crossfire apparently.

The report I heard on TV last night said it wasn't but then again no surprise that they're making it up as they go along

Sparks · 14-06-2014 3:33pm

Yeah, the reports were utter confusion for the first few hours. Even now, I don't think we've heard the full details yet. But at least we know he'll survive, that's one bit of good news at least.

Grizzly 45 · 14-06-2014 3:38pm

As usual the make it up as you go along media brigade are at it.Stories range now from a pellet gun to a swan off shotgun FFS! Nor do headlines like with last weeks shooting in a pub in Bally fermot[?] help.
"Crazed gunman on shooting spree in pub" courtsey of the Indo..An intresting choice for a spree killing.. An air pistol.

Grizzly 45 · 14-06-2014 3:42pm

rowa wrote: »

More than likely it was someone in the doj/gardai telling the new minister horror stories about what would happen to her political career if someone went on the ramoage with a legally held firearm.

http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-gun-amnesty-1517125-Jun2014/

Her career might be already up the creek, or in the tank more like when she has to "fess up as to why she didnt respond to the allegations of the mothers and babies report.So nothing like a good crisis and a chance of "see as a woman I'm tough on crime." type PR stunt to distract from that stinking mess.:(

Sparks · 14-06-2014 3:46pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Her career might be already up the creek, or in the tank more like when she has to "fess up as to why she didnt respond to the allegations of the mothers and babies report.So nothing like a good crisis and a chance of "see as a woman I'm tough on crime." type PR stunt to distract from that stinking mess.:(

If so, all the more reason for us to have kept our fecking heads down. Might be too late now. Hope you're getting range time with your pistol while you can Grizz...

BattleCorp · 14-06-2014 4:12pm

How are you supposed to reason with or even respect politicians when they make statements like that? Pure stupidity.

Because I have a licenced gun, she has to take measures to prevent me doing something like Anders Brevnik or his ilk. Grrrrrrrr.

I have a penis too, should I be castrated to prevent me turning out like Larry Murphy? FFS.

Grizzly 45 · 14-06-2014 4:44pm

Sparks wrote: »

If so, all the more reason for us to have kept our fecking heads down. Might be too late now. Hope you're getting range time with your pistol while you can Grizz...

Refer that to the "shooting organisations that repersent us." in these stakeholder conversations.:mad:
As well as to the people who keep asking their TDs to keep asking the same question over and over again in the Dail.

meathstevie · 15-06-2014 12:11am

rowa wrote: »

More than likely it was someone in the doj/gardai telling the new minister horror stories about what would happen to her political career if someone went on the rampage with a legally held firearm.

http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-gun-amnesty-1517125-Jun2014/

Pure drivel that Journal stuff, does anyone think serious criminals are going to give up the tools of their trade that easily. And no prosecution for handed in illegal firearms ? A gangsters wet dream that is, dump the old compromised stuff into a state sponsored grinder and get a few new bang bang sticks in the next consignment of contraband drugs or tobacco coming into Ireland. On the other hand it's a great way to get rid of a few old pieces of junk without having to pay for destruction or licence renewals.

yubabill1 · 15-06-2014 6:43pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

How are you supposed to reason with or even respect politicians when they make statements like that? Pure stupidity.

Because I have a licenced gun, she has to take measures to prevent me doing something like Anders Brevnik or his ilk. Grrrrrrrr.

I have a penis too, should I be castrated to prevent me turning out like Larry Murphy? FFS.

+1 on that.

Let's get one thing straight - this is the best excuse they are going to get to jump on the "public safety" argument, so it's up to us to emphasise the use of an illegal firearm in the atrocity cannot be legislated for.

And if it's argued that legislation is needed in case a licensed firearms holder goes on a shooting spree, that you should limit the magazine capacity or the nature of firearm available to mitigate the potential for damage - sure haven't we done more than any other EU country?

Anyway, surprised Purcell is not getting promoted out and Frances may not be around when he does.

Labour will pull out sooner than later.

rowa · 15-06-2014 8:44pm

http://www.thejournal.ie/government-considering-firearms-body-1518174-Jun2014/

Sparks · 15-06-2014 9:03pm

I wouldn't be looking to the Journal to have the inside track on firearms legislation in Ireland

But it'd be funny, wouldn't it? All that flouncing and throwing toys out of the pram and hundreds of court cases and an eye-watering amount of money we could have spent building more ranges or building up gun clubs in the middle of our worst ever recession, and what would the Coalition have achieved at the end of it all?

The FCP. Which they *won't* be running because the IFA still represents more shooters than they do by a factor of three and the Minister's not going to be handing over that kind of a state body to someone who's actively pissing off everyone in the Department and has a record of attacking the Minister and Commissioner. In other words, we'll be right back to where we were a few years ago, we'll just have wasted time and money and goodwill with the people we have to work with.

/facepalm

rowa · 15-06-2014 9:18pm

Sparks wrote: »

I wouldn't be looking to the Journal to have the inside track on firearms legislation in Ireland

Me either, the journal is handy for catching up on headlines and thats it.

bravestar · 15-06-2014 9:28pm

rowa wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/government-considering-firearms-body-1518174-Jun2014/

Ak's , pkm's , Springfield's , a p90 and a few AR's ... Very representitive of the average Irish gun owner! Bloody clowns ...

yubabill1 · 15-06-2014 9:31pm

Sparks wrote: »

The FCP. Which they *won't* be running because the IFA still represents more shooters than they do by a factor of three and the Minister's not going to be handing over that kind of a state body to someone who's actively pissing off everyone in the Department and has a record of attacking the Minister and Commissioner. In other words, we'll be right back to where we were a few years ago, we'll just have wasted time and money and goodwill with the people we have to work with.

/facepalm

All the best fighters have a knack of knowing when a fight is just about to start.

Lads, going by the ill-judged comment made by Minister Fitzgerald, we are in a fight:

How about this - a few years ago, in my home town (true - and I believe I heard of at least one other instance elsewhere) an Eastern European gentleman had a small disagreement with another Eastern European gentleman over a few sherbets and drove his car into the bus queue the second gentleman had joined after the celebrations were over. (The following is not true)... The Minister for Transport/Environment/whatever-you're-having-yourself has restricted Eastern Europeans to driving vehicles of 1.0 Litres or below, between the hours of daylight and not within 100 (one hundred) metres of bus stops, taxi ranks and/or railway stations...........

How far would that get?

Fair comparison?
Yuba

Sparks · 15-06-2014 9:32pm

rowa wrote: »

Me either, the journal is handy for catching up on headlines and thats it.

And it looks to me like "someone" has been having a quiet chat behind the scenes there...

bravestar wrote: »

Ak's , pkm's , Springfield's , a p90 and a few AR's ... Very representitive of the average Irish gun owner! Bloody clowns ...

Someone mentioned that it's a photo of an airsoft shop, which wouldn't surprise me in the least...

Witcher · 15-06-2014 9:52pm

Sparks wrote: »

Someone mentioned that it's a photo of an airsoft shop, which wouldn't surprise me in the least...

If you Google search the image it traces back to the US and different gun rights debates. Doubt it's in an airsoft shop.

yubabill1 · 15-06-2014 9:52pm

Paul Hosford just lit the blue touch paper.

Conspiracy theorists say he was pushed.

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Statement from NASRPC

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