Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 06-06-2014 12:06pm

Corkfeen wrote: »

I'm fairly confident that we will find a large quantity of bodies.

I'm confident we need to excavate the site. I'm equally confident that any assertions made before this are meaningless. Have you anything of substance to back that confidence?

Corkfeen wrote: »

Even ignoring this single home, the Bon Secours have developed a reputation including using children for vaccine trials. Reason for compensation already exists tbh.

Are people aware that this is not a revelation? Try a Senate debate from 14 years ago.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/seanad2000111500006?opendocument
Clinical Vaccine Trials Report: Statements.
Wednesday, 15 November 2000
Minister for Education and Science (Mr. Martin): The report of the chief medical officer of the Department of Health and Children into certain clinical trials involving residents of children's homes was laid before both Houses last week.<….>
Even though there does not seem to have been any negative medical outcome for any of these children, the story has made many of them extremely anxious. I arranged with the chief executive officers of the relevant boards, the Eastern Regional Health Authority and the Southern Health Board, that where supporting documentary evidence is available, former residents can be informed immediately whether they were part of any of these three trials. For former residents of the homes in Dublin area, the Eastern Regional Health Authority's customer service telephone number is 1800 520 520 and for former residents of Bessboro in Cork the relevant Southern Health Board's telephone number is 021 486 1260. In addition, I have ensured a counselling service for any former resident of a children's home involved in such trials, which is also available from the relevant health boards.
<…>
Dr. Henry: <…> I know both the first and second authors of the trials and the chief medical officer. I am glad the Minister recognised in the Dáil that these people's professional reputations are also of importance.<….>
Dr. Irene Hillery and Professor Patrick Meenan are two of the most important people to have ever been involved in virology and microbiology. It is important to remember that Professor Meenan was a barrister as well as a doctor. It is extraordinarily difficult to think that they would do anything which was outside what they considered to be proper and legal at the time. I cannot comment on how the Department of Health should have defended the rights of the children in care. However, given that Professor Meenan was the holder of a licence under the Therapeutic Substances Act, 1932, he would have been extremely careful about the importation of vaccines. I do not think anyone has queried this point.
The Department must have examined whatever work they were doing because a trial was turned down in 1962. The reasons were not given in the report. The Department must have known trials were taking place and it could hardly have thought they were being carried out at UCD. The Minister stated in the Dáil that the Department did not know whether it was legal for people to carry out trials outside UCD. It would be impossible for people to carry out such trials in UCD. The Department must have had a certain involvement in this. It is important to stress that no one involved on the medical side of these trials gained monetarily.
<….>
This is a look back exercise and it is important for us to recall Ireland 50 years ago. Communicable diseases accounted for 25% of deaths at that time. These disease included diphtheria, influenza, polio, measles and whooping cough. Improved socio-economic conditions and the development of new drugs were important but the immunisation programmes were also extremely important. Immunisation against diphtheria, whooping cough and tetanus was introduced in 1952/53 and against polio in 1957 following a terrible epidemic. The number of cases of these diseases rapidly declined to a fraction of pre-immunisation levels.<….>

An English company did not descend on Ireland to try to experiment on children. Similar trials were taking place in England to try to establish whether the antibody result would be as good if a quadruple vaccine, one injection only, was given to the child in one arm rather than two injections, which meant two sore arms instead of one. That trial discovered that the antibody result from both types of injection was not satisfactory and booster doses had to be given subsequently. The trial was of value to the children and to society in general.<…>

Mr. Madden of the Southern Health Board in his 1997 report on the trial which took place in Bessboro stated:
The trial was a modification of an existing schedule. No new drugs were on trial, therefore, it was not experimental. Infants would have received vaccination as part of the routine immunisation schedule. All vaccines were approved. No serious reactions were recorded. The study was carried out in accordance with the then ethical guidelines. Consent of the medical officers, and in Bessboro's case according to the home authorities, with the knowledge of the mothers was given.<…>

Spring Onion · 06-06-2014 12:16pm

Tough reading;

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/you-became-so-frightened-eventually-you-toed-the-line-271018.html

petronius · 06-06-2014 12:23pm

Hopefully a new inquiry will get to the bottom of these and allocate due care owed to the victims who are still alive and respect and remembrance to the victims not with us.

All of these "mother and child homes" need to be investigated. The Bethany Home in Rathgar seemed to go under the radar of the laundries and institutional abuse inquiry and was wrongfully left out of the compensation process and the Martin McAleese process.

Tuam seems to be a carbon copy of the Bethany Home in many ways, sadly it may take the Tuam discoveries for the Bethany Home Survivors and victims to get an appropriate response from the government.

Akrasia · 06-06-2014 12:26pm

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Are people aware that this is not a revelation? Try a Senate debate from 14 years ago.

Hold on a minute. You're saying that despite the evidence, we need to wait until there is a full investigation into the mass grave/conditions leading to the death of these children before we are allowed to be outraged

Then you imply we're only supposed to be outraged about new revelations.

The public should be outraged about the cumulative horrors of the RC Church. We should never stop being outraged about the violent physical and sexual abuse of children and the systematic cover-ups, We should never stop being outraged about the enslavement of women and children in these institutions.
We should never stop being outraged about how the church divided families, took babies away from their mothers, turned parents against their children, drove people out of the country for daring to have opinions or lifestyles that were not approved by the church.

Every new instance of horror that emerges from the RC church should add to the outrage. Catholic apologists should not be able to brush these atrocities under the carpet or pretend that they're no longer relevant because of the passage of some time.

The RC church and their apologists should be shamed into silence every time they try to give the church's opinion on issues of morality or ethics. Anyone who tries to argue that the church has any right to an involvement in our childrens education system should be shamed into silence by the evidence of how little the church as an institution cares about children

old hippy · 06-06-2014 12:38pm

More and more I'm seeing the RCC as our very own Taliban. Who are they to continue to dictate to the people of Ireland. They should be treated as terrorists for the crimes perpetrated against generations of Irish people.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 06-06-2014 12:39pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Hold on a minute. You're saying that despite the evidence, we need to wait until there is a full investigation into the mass grave/conditions leading to the death of these children before we are allowed to be outraged

I'm not making any comment on what anyone is "allowed" to do. I am suggesting that the intense desire to experience outrage is obstructing discussion.

Akrasia wrote: »

Then you imply we're only supposed to be outraged about new revelations.

No, I'm implying that some posters don't know that the issue around vaccination trials isn't a new discovery. We have to distinguish between new stuff coming to light, and people not paying attention. (Or, in fairness, people being too young 14 years ago to have taken notice of the issue).

Akrasia wrote: »

<...> outraged <...> outraged <...> outraged <...> outraged <...> outrage<...>

Feel better?

Bannasidhe · 06-06-2014 1:06pm

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I'm not making any comment on what anyone is "allowed" to do. I am suggesting that the intense desire to experience outrage is obstructing discussion.No, I'm implying that some posters don't know that the issue around vaccination trials isn't a new discovery. We have to distinguish between new stuff coming to light, and people not paying attention. (Or, in fairness, people being too young 14 years ago to have taken notice of the issue).Feel better?

Personally I think the outrage is healthy, cathartic, and vital to force the authorities to once and for order a full and independent enquiry into all the institutions run by religious orders be they RCC or COI or whomever. Preferably headed by someone from outside the State with no strong connection to any of the religious organisations under investigation.

Up until now we have had a piecemeal damaged limitation approach headed by the likes of Martin McAleese where decisions are taken to limit the terms of enquiry and what evidence is presented.

Up until now the State has prevaricated, dissembled, denied, ignored, and made even those it acknowledged were abused jump through hoops while also failing to take any action to force the RCC, in particular, to abide by the very generous agreement it made with the State for paying redress.

We all know the only way of putting a rocket under the arse of an Irish government (whatever permutation of FG/LP/FG/PD/GP) is outrage - and the more global that outrage the better.

As for stuff that was already known - it may have been known to you but that does not mean it was widely known - and you have failed to consider the cumulative effect all of these continual revelations are having.

iguana · 06-06-2014 1:23pm

Amnesty International calling for a thorough investigation.

John Dalhuisen, Europe and Central Asia Programme Director wrote:

“This shocking case needs immediate attention and answers from the Irish Government. A thorough investigation must be carried out into how these children died and if ill-treatment, neglect or other human rights abuses factored into their deaths. We also need to know why these children were not afforded the respect of a proper and dignified burial,”
“The Irish Government must not view this and other cases as merely historic and beyond its human rights obligations,”

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ireland-tuam-babies-mass-grave-allegations-must-spark-urgent-investigation-2014-06-05

Meanwhile, I got an email (not an auto response) from someone in Fitzgerald's office, saying they received my email. That's the only response I've gotten from any politician about the petition. Which has now passed 15k signatures.

Spring Onion · 06-06-2014 1:35pm

iguana wrote: »

Amnesty International calling for a thorough investigation.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ireland-tuam-babies-mass-grave-allegations-must-spark-urgent-investigation-2014-06-05

Meanwhile, I got an email (not an auto response) from someone in Fitzgerald's office, saying they received my email. That's the only response I've gotten from any politician about the petition. Which has now passed 15k signatures.

I also got an email from Fitzerald's office just now. It just said "I write to acknowledge receipt of your email dated 5 June, 2014." and provided a Minster Reference Number.

I implore all Boardsies to email the Minister.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 06-06-2014 1:54pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Personally I think the outrage is healthy, cathartic,

No disagreement there. Alternatively, some people swear by Reiki.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

... and vital to force the authorities to once and for order a full and independent enquiry into all the institutions run by religious orders be they RCC or COI or whomever.

If incoherent, it will force the authorities to do something dumb. So, no. No to outrage, if it means we're not supposed to notice Reuters think someone dug up 800 skeletons in a place called "Toooo-am".

I though we were supposed to be against ignoring things, and making stuff up.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As for stuff that was already known - it may have been known to you but that does not mean it was widely known - and you have failed to consider the cumulative effect all of these continual revelations are having.

Ah, here. If it's been the subject of much media discussion and a couple of Oireachtas debates, it's not like it's a secret.

And I'm not commenting on the "cumulative effect" of anything. The point is that some folk just don't know that the vaccination issue is already a matter of public record. I'd remind you again, I though we were supposed to be against ignoring things, and making stuff up.

Talking of not ignoring things, I can't help noticing this

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/you-became-so-frightened-eventually-you-toed-the-line-271018.html
Dr James Deeny closed the home, sacked its matron and its medical officer when he found children were rife with staphylococcus inflection <....> without any legal authority

Surely this couldn't mean that some children were saved as a result of women being disempowered by an assertion of unlawful male paternalism?

Cabaal · 06-06-2014 1:55pm

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/06/the-savage-eye/

The chair of the RTE board is a co owner and director of the nun's PR firm. This is not a conflict because the nuns are innocent. #Simples

SpaceTime · 06-06-2014 2:23pm

old hippy wrote: »

More and more I'm seeing the RCC as our very own Taliban. Who are they to continue to dictate to the people of Ireland. They should be treated as terrorists for the crimes perpetrated against generations of Irish people.

The mentality was very similar, certainly at their peak in the 30s-70s.

It wasn't just the Church though, it was a certain shrill, moralising, know-it-all, holier than thou element of civil society that acted as foot soldiers and cheer leaders too.

I'd compare it more to Spain under Franco than to anything else.

Spring Onion · 06-06-2014 2:26pm

The group, Justice for the Tuam Babies, are marching in Dublin this Wednesday 11th June at 7pm from the Department of Children.

https://www.facebook.com/JusticefortheTuamBabies

Zambia · 06-06-2014 2:29pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Hate though I do to say it GCU has a point but the fact that this whole debacle is spinning out of control is completely the fault of the authorities.

To date no investigation of the site has taken place despite a file been sent to Fitzgerald in her capacity of Minister for Children over a year ago. A failure which has echoes of how files detailing dodgy doings in AGS were also ignored and of course these are now accepted by government as being accurate.

The evidence presented so far consists of death certificates for 798 children aged up to 9 years who were in the care of the Bon Secour sisters in Tuam. Exhaustive research by a local historian into internments in local cemeteries revealed only one of those named children as being buried locally- there are no records of the burial of the other 797.

Eye witness testimony from a local man which states in the mid 1970s he discovered an unknown quantity of human skeletal remains under a concrete cap in what is now known to be a disused septic tank on the grounds of what was the Bon Secour Mother and Child Home in Tuam.

Official reports from medical examiners of appalling conditions in the Bon Secour Mother and Child home in Tuam which detail overcrowding and severely malnourished children.

Evidence in the public domain of a death rate at such institutions that was far in excess of the norm - over five times more in the case of illegitimate children.

Evidence in the public domain that it was common practice for those who died in various Mother and Child homes throughout the State to be buried in communal graves/ unmarked graves/unrecorded graves usually within the grounds of the institutions.

Lack of denial that the internment of human remains in such a manner took place by the Bon Secour Order or the RCC hierarchy.

All of these combined make a strong case for an investigation into the site but despite the details being presented to government over a year ago none has taken place.

Dismissal by the AGS of the need for investigation as this site is, in their opinion, most likely the result of the Famine which ignores the fact that a Famine mass grave has already been discovered over 100 meters from the site.

Although the existence of a concrete covering (who put that there and when was it put there?) may interfere with non-invasive ground penetrating mapping equipment such as geo-phys, no attempt to even try has been made.

Forensic anthropologists have not been given access to the the site or any remains which may be there.

If, when this issue was reported to the Minister for Children, an investigation was begun we would not now be experiencing such levels of rage and, yes, hysteria, across the globe.

It also cannot be denied that if it was believed that human remains were on a site and may have been placed there by paramilitaries a full investigation would have taken place immediately.

Thank you for laying this out

Strange to think the met police are digging in Portugal for the body of Madeleine McCann on a very long shot one child may be there.

06-06-2014 2:29pm

Corless video Interview here http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/coalition-willing-to-widen-tuam-inquiry-to-other-institutions-1.1822892

Firedance · 06-06-2014 2:35pm

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Talking of not ignoring things, I can't help noticing thisSurely this couldn't mean that some children were saved as a result of women being disempowered by an assertion of unlawful male paternalism?

Just to clarify that point is in relation to the Bessboro Mother and Baby home in Cork, not Tuam.

Corkfeen · 06-06-2014 2:45pm

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I'm confident we need to excavate the site. I'm equally confident that any assertions made before this are meaningless. Have you anything of substance to back that confidence?Are people aware that this is not a revelation? Try a Senate debate from 14 years ago.

I know the latter is not a new Revelation but it matters just as much now. In relation to my confidence, otherwise we'll have 800 missing bodies which in itself is concerning. It's worth noting the Bons Secours aren't denying the existence of the grave site.

bumper234 · 06-06-2014 2:54pm

Moving along

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0606/621906-tuam-mass-grave/

Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald has ordered a report from An Garda Síochána on all the information it has to date on the deaths of almost 800 children at a mother-and-baby home in Tuam, Co Galway.

"The purpose of criminal investigations is to lead to the prosecution of persons where the commission of offences has been established.

Cabaal · 06-06-2014 3:04pm

Bit of an edit war going on in Wikipedia on the Bon Secours Sisters site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bon_Secours_Sisters&action=history

2011 total edits = 4
2012 total edits = 3
2013 total edits = 6
2014 total edits = 38, since June 2

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/06/the-savage-eye/#comments

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 06-06-2014 3:23pm

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-priest-said-mass-then-the-grave-was-covered-up-again-30333565.html

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/mass-baby-grave-in-tuam-galway-sisters-of-bon-secours-nuns-have-no-burial-home-records-30333786.html

Now locals are eager for the site to be marked but insist that they want to see the babies left undisturbed.

Bit late for that, I'd have thought.

aloyisious · 06-06-2014 3:24pm

If anyone can tell me in all honesty that what was done by the nuns in the homes to the mothers and children is excusable, merely because the nuns thought it was in line with what society thought of as "penance for sins" at the time, feel free to show me how what is inhuman treatment was ok and excusable. This is a report in the Irish Examiner relating the memoirs of a Midwife at Bessborough in the '50,s. At least one nun thought denying accessible medical treatment located in the home was a fit penance for the mothers who had given birth there.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/midwifersquos-memoir-reveals-the-horror-of-bessborough-271158.html.

What happened was pure and simple cruelty, imposed by nuns because they felt it was their right and duty to impose the cruelty. Any thinking person back then would have been well aware that cruel treatment of that kind was NOT ok or legitimate. I'd like to know the ratio of deaths versus life within the baby/child population at the Tuam home, and how it differ's to that of the population outside the home. Anyone would think that the nuns had NO way to prevent and/or lessen the amount of deaths in the homes, and had no recourse to any treatment to better the children's health.

I can't find the actual part of christian scripture that state's unbaptized dead people cannot be buried in hallowed ground, so if anyone can post the rules for me, I'd be obliged.

Cabaal · 06-06-2014 3:26pm

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Bit late for that, I'd have thought.

Doesn't matter what some locals may want, the potential that a crime has been committed needs to be investigated.

It seems some people are happy with a mass and some holy water being thrown around the place, but that doesn't change that this must been investigated properly.

bumper234 · 06-06-2014 3:27pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Doesn't matter what some locals may want, the potential that a crime has been committed needs to be investigated.

It seems some people are happy with a mass and some holy water being thrown around the place, but that doesn't change that this must been investigated properly.

Some locals may be afraid that their own family skeletons could come out into the open if they had family working there.

Neyite · 06-06-2014 3:38pm

I started to read a book - banished babies - last night about the whole area of children being adopted from these homes to Americans.

Did you know that the going rate for a child was between £2000 and £3000 per child. Or, if since charging for babies was illegal, it was a suggested donation to the Order.

In todays money that has been equated to €70,000 - €82,000. Per child.
Plus if if the mother didnt have the £100 to pay the nuns after your baby was born, you could not leave. So you stayed for 3 years to work and pay off your debt to them, despite having worked solid 12hr days in laundries or tarring roads for approx 6 months beforehand for them unpaid.

And there were no doctors fees, doctors never attended the births, no medications such as antibiotics, or pain relief were used. They didnt even spend the money on needles and thread to stitch women up if they tore during labour. (because they deserved to suffer as a penance for their sins)

Maintenance to the homes was covered by the local authorities, so the nuns didnt have to worry about the costs of upkeep.

So in addition to being paid the average industrial wage (anyone know by the way how much that was, or how much it may be in todays money?) by the state to look after these mothers and children (which would support a single family with lots and lots of children outside the walls of the home), made money from slave labour, they also got a whopper amount of money for the adoptions.

And still, the little ones were malnourished?

SpaceTime · 06-06-2014 3:45pm

aloyisious wrote: »

If anyone can tell me in all honesty that what was done by the nuns in the homes to the mothers and children is excusable, merely because the nuns thought it was in line with what society thought of as "penance for sins" at the time, feel free to show me how what is inhuman treatment was ok and excusable. This is a report in the Irish Examiner relating the memoirs of a Midwife at Bessborough in the '50,s. At least one nun thought denying accessible medical treatment located in the home was a fit penance for the mothers who had given birth there.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/midwifersquos-memoir-reveals-the-horror-of-bessborough-271158.html.

What happened was pure and simple cruelty, imposed by nuns because they felt it was their right and duty to impose the cruelty. Any thinking person back then would have been well aware that cruel treatment of that kind was NOT ok or legitimate. I'd like to know the ratio of deaths versus life within the baby/child population at the Tuam home, and how it differ's to that of the population outside the home. Anyone would think that the nuns had NO way to prevent and/or lessen the amount of deaths in the homes, and had no recourse to any treatment to better the children's health.

I can't find the actual part of christian scripture that state's unbaptized dead people cannot be buried in hallowed ground, so if anyone can post the rules for me, I'd be obliged.

It's just twisted, bizzare and utterly inhumane stuff that was a crude attempt at social engineering through brutality and oppression.

Not really sure how else you could describe it.

Very disturbing article.

Wickerman1 · 06-06-2014 3:46pm

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Bit late for that, I'd have thought.

The same people that kept quite about this atrocity and think a RCC shrine would make everything okay.

It's equivalent to the Nazi's lighting a candle in front of a swastica in memory of their victims.
It's not down to what they want!

I Heart Internet · 06-06-2014 3:53pm

Wickerman1 wrote: »

The same people that kept quite about this atrocity......

I think we all (collectively) kept quite about this carry-on for far too long.

I remember in the 80s being threatened that I would be sent to a particular home such as this, "if I wasn't a good boy". It was used as a sort of bogey-man to keep little kids in line. So I think it was clear to everyone, at that time and before, that these were not good places.

kylith · 06-06-2014 4:03pm

Neyite wrote: »

So in addition to being paid the average industrial wage (anyone know by the way how much that was, or how much it may be in todays money?)

Well, muckross-house.ie says that a farm labourer would earn about 15s a week - approx. 180d. What that'd be in new money I have no idea though. We can probably also assume that an industrial wage would be higher.

Ash.J.Williams · 06-06-2014 4:05pm

I think the last thing those babies would have wanted is a mass

Wickerman1 · 06-06-2014 4:18pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I think we all (collectively) kept quite about this carry-on for far too long.

I remember in the 80s being threatened that I would be sent to a particular home such as this, "if I wasn't a good boy". It was used as a sort of bogey-man to keep little kids in line. So I think it was clear to everyone, at that time and before, that these were not good places.

They were indeed evil institutions lead by a draconian power hungry organisation that fed off fear of the population.
People had a good reason to be afraid of these 'Holy people' back then, but not any more.
It is worrying that people still try and defend the indefensible today!

Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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