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Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Zambia wrote: »
    Where are these children now?

    Are they still in the pit?

    Yup and will stay there unless people keep emailing their TD's and make noise over this. At the moment the best they can hope for is a mass and a plaque :mad:


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Unless I've missed something, no-one has yet taken a spade to see if this location actually contains a huge amount of human bones. But, sure, no need to wait for that. Facts are just commonly accepted assertions, not things that you actually validate by comparing to reality.

    You are now doubting the mere existence of the bones, I suppose the death certs with the unusual high death rate may not be real either?

    People like yourself do the catholic church no favours, you might as well say what the Vatican said in 2010 and claim that the sex abuse of children by priests and the subsequent coverup by the RCC under the policy's set out by the Vatican.....was an error in judgement.

    People with mindsets like yourself doubted if the victims of sex abuse back in the 1990's were telling true stories, they wanted actual proof.

    You know we got our proof, reports like the murphy report with details such as a child being raped with crucifix. Reports which showed the catholic church systematically did everything they could to silence these victims and did all they could to keep the imagine of the RCC perfect.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cross posting from AH
    dharma200 wrote: »
    A link to the synopsis of the research essay that opened this horrific can of worms for the Catholic Church https://m.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1382568855335119&id=1381096678815670
    Very interesting reading......

    Can't read this now, but did last night. These are comments directly from the local historian that has studied at length the records available.

    Surely they deserve some more credit / reading. Their research is direct, this thread in its entirety is borne out of commentary on the research.

    Just trying to flag this up as something worth reading if you can.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Unfortunately, true to form, we're inventing the myth before we've much objective fact. International media are covering the story as if 800 actual skeletons were recently found on the site. However, the actual position seems to be that records in the custody of Galway County Council list 800 children who died in this institution. We've also a statement to the effect that children found skulls on this site some time in the 1970s.
    We also have no records of these 800 bodies being buried. Catherine Corless has been on the radio this week discussing this. The synopsis of her report is available above. No graveyard has a record of these 800. At least none within a reasonable distance of the Home.

    Unless I've missed something, no-one has yet taken a spade to see if this location actually contains a huge amount of human bones. But, sure, no need to wait for that. Facts are just commonly accepted assertions, not things that you actually validate by comparing to reality.

    Core Irish value number 1. You can just make stuff up, if it's what people want to hear anyway.

    fyp


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    I see no mention of a water tank silage pit.

    I also see no evidence here of dying rooms. Is this the extent of the revelations?

    I there a list a of names and the causes of death? The author does not appear to indicate that the deaths were suspicious.

    The callous nature of the disposal of the bodies is damning indeed but in her research has she discovered any more evidence of the neglect that lead to the death of these children?

    Someone maybe needs to examine the site.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    pauldla wrote: »
    FYP :P
    fyp
    Actually, U MTP.
    Cabaal wrote: »
    You are now doubting the mere existence of the bones, I suppose the death certs with the unusual high death rate may not be real either?
    You're just displaying your incapacity to make rational statements on this topic. I've explicitly said that my understanding of the situation is there are records in the custody of Galway County Council that identify 800 deaths at this institution.

    The fact that you ignore my statement, and rant as if you were a Bon Secours nun having a go at a pregnant girl, makes my point. You are the one that shares the mindset of the people who brought us here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭Bellatori


    So far on the BBC web site there are three main articles

    3rd June
    Almost 800 infants buried in unmarked graves in Tuam, County Galway

    4th June
    Ireland considers inquiry into children's mass grave

    5th June
    Tuam children's bodies: Catholic Church 'has no records'

    There was also a short piece on this on Radio 4 main news program Today, this morning. There is ceratinly some heat building up behind this.

    Maybe there will eventually be a full investigation. The following was slightly heartening
    Fianna Fáil TD (member of parliament) Colm Keaveney, whose home town is Tuam, said the burial of the children in a septic tank was "horrendous" and a "scandal of significant proportion".

    "I've called on the government to make a formal apology to the women involved and take whatever action necessary to unearth the truth," he said.

    "We need to hear a formal statement from the taoiseach (prime minister) of this country about plans to investigate the circumstances surrounding the death of these children.

    "These infants were Irish citizens, their treatment and the treatment of their mothers, was grossly unacceptable."

    Someone mentioned the following earlier. I found it hard to believe but here it is in print which may not make it true but certainly harder to deny.
    The children of these women were denied baptism and segregated from others at school. If they died at such facilities, they were also denied a Christian burial.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    You are the one that shares the mindset of the people who brought us here.

    Do I really?
    So I'm against a full investigation, criminal charges and a compensation scheme being setup?.

    I'm against all that now am I?
    well **** me!, thats news to me!

    Lets not forget that when it comes to compensation schemes already setup that orders are refusing to pay into, I'm fully in favor of church assets being taken and sold in order to compensate victims of abuse,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    "I've called on the government to make a formal apology to the women involved and take whatever action necessary to unearth the truth," he said.
    He wants the Taoiseach to apologise to the Bon Secours nuns? I don't get it.

    Don't forget your shovel if you want to unearth the truth.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Do I really?
    So I'm against a full investigation, criminal charges and a compensation scheme being setup?.

    I'm against all that now am I?
    well **** me!, thats news to me!
    Compensation for who?

    More fundamentally, yes, you are not listening to what others are saying because you want to rant.

    Some media reports are inaccurate, as they are suggesting that bones of 800 babies have been found with a suggestion these deaths were unrecorded.

    What we actually have are records of deaths, but (as yet) no physical evidence of where they might be buried.

    But you want to rant. Off you go.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan



    Don't forget your shovel if you want to unearth the truth.

    Can somebody ban this scumbag


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Compensation for who?

    Once fully investigated and depending on the outcome any remaining mothers of the children should be compensated,

    You don't think they should be if the nuns were found to have failed in their duty of care?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭same ol sh1te


    He wants the Taoiseach to apologise to the Bon Secours nuns? I don't get it.

    Apology to the women involved, why would anyone apologise to the nuns?
    Don't forget your shovel if you want to unearth the truth.

    Isn't that what we are calling for?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    http://www.thejournal.ie/amnesty-tuam-1502483-Jun2014/
    AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL HAS added its voice to the calls for a full investigation into the ‘Tuam babies’ revelations.

    It follows yesterday’s confirmation that a Government task force is to examine the issue, and report back by the end of the month.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Once fully investigated and depending on the outcome any remaining mothers of the children should be compensated,

    You don't think they should be if the nuns were found to have failed in their duty of care?
    Compensated by whom? Incidently, I've no problem if the Bon Secours Sisters have to part with some of the €200m+ they earn from private health insurers each year. But if you're talking about this being funded from general taxation, I'm out.

    I'd repeat that you've got the ass before the cart, though. At this time, the focus should be on fact gathering. Because folk, like yourself, are rushing to rant, you're actually missing what needs to be done. In this circumstance, if there isn't anything buried in the field, people like you will have succeeded in undermining the case. The fact that there are actual records of deaths will be forgotten, because people will assume if there are no physical remains in that particular location that there isn't an issue.

    Maybe there are bones in that field. The first thing is just to find out if there are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Maybe there are bones in that field.

    Maybe there are eye-witness accounts from locals who have seen the bones. Maybe that is why locals maintain a shrine and memorial plaque at the site, as seen in the photos upthread.

    Maybe you should read more and write less.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Maybe there are eye-witness accounts from locals who have seen the bones. Maybe that is why locals maintain a shrine and memorial plaque at the site, as seen in the photos upthread.

    Maybe you should read more and write less.
    Thank you for making my point for me, and demonstrating that people like yourself are rushing to rant. I've already acknowledged those precise facts.
    We've also a statement to the effect that children found skulls on this site some time in the 1970s.
    I'm just as interested in who put up the statue in the glass box.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    I've already acknowledged those precise facts.

    So when you said:
    What we actually have are records of deaths, but (as yet) no physical evidence of where they might be buried.

    you meant what we actually have are records of deaths from malnutrition and neglect, evidence that the bodies were not buried in any regular graveyard, and eye-witness accounts of a mass grave on the site dating from the time the Home was run by the nuns.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    we actually have are records of deaths from malnutrition and neglect, evidence that the bodies were not buried in any regular graveyard, and eye-witness accounts
    That's what I said, minus the rant.

    We also have eye-witness accounts of the Knock Apparitions. But, what the hey, let's get some recovered memories from previous incarnations while we're at it.

    Anything except excavate the site.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    We also have eye-witness accounts of the Knock Apparitions. But, what the hey, let's get some recovered memories from previous incarnations while we're at it.

    I only see one person ranting here, and you aren't worth my time.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    Compensated by whom? Incidently, I've no problem if the Bon Secours Sisters have to part with some of the €200m+ they earn from private health insurers each year. But if you're talking about this being funded from general taxation, I'm out.

    The government have avoided even bringing this up since 2011. I have no issue with public money being used to compensate victims. They would be both victims of the church and the state so the state does bare responsibility as well. They were told of poor conditions at the time.

    I'm fairly confident that we will find a large quantity of bodies. Note the fact the Bon Secours aren't jumping to saying the claims are false. In terms of reasonable suspicion of crimes occurring,there's an exceedingly high mortality rate and inexplicable deaths by malnutrition.

    Even ignoring this single home, the Bon Secours have developed a reputation including using children for vaccine trials. Reason for compensation already exists tbh.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I only see one person ranting here, and you aren't worth my time.
    None of that please
    Don't forget your shovel if you want to unearth the truth.
    But you want to rant. Off you go.
    Cut out the tart retorts. They add nothing to this thread.
    drumswan wrote: »
    Can somebody ban this scumbag
    Carded for incivility.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    The government have avoided even bringing this up since 2011. I have no issue with public money being used to compensate victims. They would be both victims of the church and the state so the state does bare responsibility as well. They were told of poor conditions at the time.

    I'm fairly confident that we will find a large quantity of bodies. Note the fact the Bon Secours aren't jumping to saying the claims are false. In terms of reasonable suspicion of crimes occurring,there's an exceedingly high mortality rate and inexplicable deaths by malnutrition.

    Even ignoring this single home, the Bon Secours have developed a reputation including using children for vaccine trials. Reason for compensation already exists tbh.

    I would agree with this but it should be 50/50 paid, not like happened with the abuse scandal where the RCC got off virtually scot free.:mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭Bellatori


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    ...Even ignoring this single home, the Bon Secours have developed a reputation including using children for vaccine trials. ...

    I have to say that from this side of the Irish sea I have not heard of this so I went looking. This article was a useful start and had a lot of links and lead me to this from which I noted
    The document found that 211 children had been administered vaccines during three separate vaccine trials conducted on behalf of a drugs company, The Wellcome Foundation.


    More than 123 of these infants and toddlers were residents in children's homes in Dublin, Cork and the midlands when the trials took place in the 1960s and 1970s.
    It came as no surprise as I tracked on to read that
    FILES relating to controversial vaccine trials carried out on children at a Mother and Baby Home run by the Sacred Heart Convent in Bessboro in Cork will not be transferred to the HSE.
    At this point, other than hoping someone sues SKB and any other pharmaceutical company involved until the pips squeak.

    I am starting to wonder whether the RCC should be treated as a business rather than as a religious institution. Transparency has not been one of its finer qualities and it clearly needs more than just a bit of a spring clean.:mad:


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/midwifersquos-memoir-reveals-the-horror-of-bessborough-271158.html
    Women who gave birth at the notorious Bessborough mother-and-baby home in Cork were not allowed pain relief during labour or stitches after birth, and when they developed abscesses from breast-feeding they were denied penicillin.

    One nun who ran the labour ward in 1951 also forbid any “moaning or screaming” during childbirth. Girls in poverty, who could not afford to make donations to the Sacred Heart order, had to spend another three years after their babies were born cleaning and working on the lands around the Cork city home to ‘make amends’ for their pregnancy.
    In the memoir, published in 1998, she recounts how, at her first Bessborough birth, she asked someone at the hospital what painkillers were used in labour.

    “Nobody gets any here, nurse, They just have to suffer,” she was told.
    When Ms Goulding asked why she could not access needles to stitch women who had been torn during childbirth, she was told she was not allowed to open the cabinet. “I’m afraid, nurse, the key to that cabinet has never been handed over. Girls must suffer their pain and put up with the pain of being torn — she [the nun] says they should atone for their sin.

    Seriously, what the **** was wrong with these people?
    :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭Bellatori


    Cabaal wrote: »
    ...Seriously, what the **** was wrong with these people?...

    Nothing. They were all good upstanding members of the Catholic church. They were no different from Mother Teresa who told the dying in Calcutta they should suffer because it brought them nearer to God. ... and they gave her a Nobel prize :o.

    These Nuns brought in lots of cash and kept undesirables off the streets... and it sounds like they got some of them to do community service as well. Total win win.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Seriously, what the **** was wrong with these people?
    :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
    "god" is what's wrong with them, same as every other religion.

    you can justify the committal of the most heinous crimes against humanity when you have "the lord" on your side, because you know you're doing his work and he loves you for it.

    this is precisely why (imho) the catholic church has been responsible for making more atheists in ireland than anything or anyone else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭Bellatori


    vibe666 wrote: »
    "god" is what's wrong with them, same as every other religion.

    you can justify the committal of the most heinous crimes against humanity when you have "the lord" on your side, because you know you're doing his work and he loves you for it.

    this is precisely why (imho) the catholic church has been responsible for making more atheists in ireland than anything or anyone else.

    As the Nobel scientist Steven Weinberg said
    Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

    No need to think. No cause for regret. Just act and blame God...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Hate though I do to say it GCU has a point but the fact that this whole debacle is spinning out of control is completely the fault of the authorities.

    To date no investigation of the site has taken place despite a file been sent to Fitzgerald in her capacity of Minister for Children over a year ago. A failure which has echoes of how files detailing dodgy doings in AGS were also ignored and of course these are now accepted by government as being accurate.

    The evidence presented so far consists of death certificates for 798 children aged up to 9 years who were in the care of the Bon Secour sisters in Tuam. Exhaustive research by a local historian into internments in local cemeteries revealed only one of those named children as being buried locally- there are no records of the burial of the other 797.

    Eye witness testimony from a local man which states in the mid 1970s he discovered an unknown quantity of human skeletal remains under a concrete cap in what is now known to be a disused septic tank on the grounds of what was the Bon Secour Mother and Child Home in Tuam.

    Official reports from medical examiners of appalling conditions in the Bon Secour Mother and Child home in Tuam which detail overcrowding and severely malnourished children.

    Evidence in the public domain of a death rate at such institutions that was far in excess of the norm - over five times more in the case of illegitimate children.

    Evidence in the public domain that it was common practice for those who died in various Mother and Child homes throughout the State to be buried in communal graves/ unmarked graves/unrecorded graves usually within the grounds of the institutions.

    Lack of denial that the internment of human remains in such a manner took place by the Bon Secour Order or the RCC hierarchy.

    All of these combined make a strong case for an investigation into the site but despite the details being presented to government over a year ago none has taken place.



    Dismissal by the AGS of the need for investigation as this site is, in their opinion, most likely the result of the Famine which ignores the fact that a Famine mass grave has already been discovered over 100 meters from the site.



    Although the existence of a concrete covering (who put that there and when was it put there?) may interfere with non-invasive ground penetrating mapping equipment such as geo-phys, no attempt to even try has been made.

    Forensic anthropologists have not been given access to the the site or any remains which may be there.

    If, when this issue was reported to the Minister for Children, an investigation was begun we would not now be experiencing such levels of rage and, yes, hysteria, across the globe.

    It also cannot be denied that if it was believed that human remains were on a site and may have been placed there by paramilitaries a full investigation would have taken place immediately.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Bellatori wrote: »
    Nothing. They were all good upstanding members of the Catholic church. They were no different from Mother Teresa who told the dying in Calcutta they should suffer because it brought them nearer to God. ... and they gave her a Nobel prize :o.

    These Nuns brought in lots of cash and kept undesirables off the streets... and it sounds like they got some of them to do community service as well. Total win win.

    Very true. After all the Good Book (*spits*) says "In sorry shalt thou bring forth children".


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