Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

dxhound2005 · 01-02-2012 11:26pm

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Actually you'll find it's much easier for anyone with principles and integrity to make a stand against, and refuse to pay €100 and the late payment penalties, than it is against €1,000 plus the penalties, and it will be €1,000 soon. If most people would at least hold off untill March 2013, like Thatcher's Poll tax, this tax would fail.

News just in from 1993. Thatcher's Poll Tax (Community Charge) was replaced by a Council Tax. Read all about it.

http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/CouncilTax/index.html

The Quadratic Equation · 01-02-2012 11:31pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

News just in from 1993. Thatcher's Poll Tax (Community Charge) was replaced by a Council Tax. Read all about it.

http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/CouncilTax/index.html

Fail.

"Abandonment of the Community ChargeJohn Major announced in his first parliamentary speech as Prime Minister that the Community Charge was to be replaced by Council Tax, which, unlike the Community Charge, took account of ability to pay. While less harsh on lower-income earners than the Community Charge, the new tax took no account of the income earned by the taxpayer, but did take into account the value of the property on which the householder was taxed, being in effect the old rates system restored. The anti-poll tax movement were responsible for the abolition of the Community Charge."

Now, was it used to pay the private gambling debts of corrupt and connected speculators ?

dxhound2005 · 01-02-2012 11:39pm

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Fail.

"Abandonment of the Community ChargeJohn Major announced in his first parliamentary speech as Prime Minister that the Community Charge was to be replaced by Council Tax, which, unlike the Community Charge, took account of ability to pay. While less harsh on lower-income earners than the Community Charge, the new tax took no account of the income earned by the taxpayer, but did take into account the value of the property on which the householder was taxed, being in effect the old rates system restored. The anti-poll tax movement were responsible for the abolition of the Community Charge."

Now, was it used to pay the private gambling debts of corrupt and connected speculators ?

Rates = Community Charge = Council Tax, change the name, call it what you like the result is people in England and Wales paying £26 billion. In the North they call it domestic rates (I remember we had that too).

tayto lover · 01-02-2012 11:50pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Rates = Community Charge = Council Tax, change the name, call it what you like the result is people in England and Wales paying £26 billion. In the North they call it domestic rates (I remember we had that too).

“It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home” – Enda Kenny, 1994

Slick50 · 02-02-2012 12:10am

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Higher income earners have taken a far greater increase in taxation than lower income earners over the past four years. That is fact.

Because they haver far greater earnings, thus disposable income.

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Higher income earners in Ireland are now far more closely aligned with average european tax rates than lower income earners. If you further increase their rates, the temptation to move their centre of business increases. Moving an enterprise in many cases is easy now - the bigger earners are often intellectual assets at this stage.

Interlectuals like David Drumm, haven't waited for the tax increases. We were told you have to pay these interlectuals their huge salaries to get the best men for he job. That didn't work out! Do you really think if these geniuses did actually leave, they are irreplaceable. Maybe if they are friends of Enda. They won't walk away from the cash cow that readily. But we do need to tighten up our "non-residental" rules

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

The competing countries are all of those with a lower marginal rate of tax (and if we keep increasing it the way some people would like, there will be quite a few of them soon). So yes, they won't live there tax free, but they will pay less tax (and probably enjoy warmer summers and colder winters - how good is that!!!)

Don't worry too much about them, they're getting plenty of sunshine as and when they feel like.

02-02-2012 12:10am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Rates = Community Charge = Council Tax, change the name, call it what you like the result is people in England and Wales paying £26 billion. In the North they call it domestic rates (I remember we had that too).

The key difference between the poll tax and rates was it was the person not the property that was taxed!

Poll Tax
One house + one adult = 1 tax
One house + four adults = 4 taxes
House size or type didn't matter.

Rates

One house + one adult = 1 tax
One house + four adults = 1 tax

Rates based on house size & value.

dxhound2005 · 02-02-2012 12:14am

Deleted User wrote: »

The key difference between the poll tax and rates was it was the person not the property that was taxed!

Poll Tax
One house + one adult = 1 tax
One house + four adults = 4 taxes
House size or type didn't matter.

Rates

One house + one adult = 1 tax
One house + four adults = 1 tax

Rates based on house size & value.

Which one would you think is best for this country?

02-02-2012 12:20am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Which one would you think is best for this country?

The main reason the poll tax failed was the "ability to pay" was not thought through properly, it ended up with lubricious situations where the single millionaire land owner paid less than his gardener's family because the gardener was married.

I would favour a local income tax based on ability to pay and level of services available. This would co-inside with the abolition of the current "proxy taxes" currently used in leau of rates.

squod · 02-02-2012 12:32am

There's no reason to attach a council tax to your property. If the government wants a council tax then call it council tax.

A property tax is literally outrageous. Attaching a yearly levy to your home is quite threatening. There's also no sign of this thing being performance rated.
Yet again the PS worker will just pocket 60% to pay someone's pension scheme and the tax payer will get the scraps.

Performance rated council tax or fuhk right off FG!

dxhound2005 · 02-02-2012 12:55am

squod wrote: »

There's no reason to attach a council tax to your property. If the government wants a council tax then call it council tax.

A property tax is literally outrageous. Attaching a yearly levy to your home is quite threatening. There's also no sign of this thing being performance rated.
Yet again the PS worker will just pocket 60% to pay someone's pension scheme and the tax payer will get the scraps.

Performance rated council tax or fuhk right off FG!

I don't understand outrageous and threatening in relation to property taxes otherwise homeowners in countries all around the world must feel threatened and outraged. The returns from the property tax will be much less than what people had to pay in stamp duty not so long back and the exchequer is in more need of money now. And when it gets established just like the NPPR it will be a steady source of revenue and may even be a factor in preventing any future housing bubble

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/stamp-duty-yield-down-95pc-since-boom-peak-2307953.html

The tax applies to about 1.6 million private homeowners and if you add in their families it will effect maybe half the population. It might even include some PS workers. You can hardly say that this is an attack on some put upon minority.

squod · 02-02-2012 1:11am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I don't understand outrageous and threatening in relation to property taxes otherwise homeowners in countries all around the world must feel threatened and outraged. The returns from the property tax will be much less than what people had to pay in stamp duty not so long back and the exchequer is in more need of money now. And when it gets established just like the NPPR it will be a steady source of revenue and may even be a factor in preventing any future housing bubble

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/stamp-duty-yield-down-95pc-since-boom-peak-2307953.html

The tax applies to about 1.6 million private homeowners and if you add in their families it will effect maybe half the population. It might even include some PS workers. You can hardly say that this is an attack on some put upon minority.

This is untrue. Property taxes have failed every time they have been introduced here. I suggest for the reasons I've outlined.

Few counties levy taxes on peoples homes. In the UK for example efforts failed to directly tax a persons home and council taxes were introduced instead. A fairer system.

The ''exchequer'' is pissing money away a lot faster than any tax could keep up with. Your argument doesn't hold water.

K-9 · 02-02-2012 1:54am

Joshua Jones wrote: »

See the mongers of fear are still at it!. Doesn't seem to be working, the no side keeps growing by the day. Shill fail.

It's an internet poll. It's a bit like the SF thing, Shinners always get over represented on internet sites, Boards eg. Activists tend to be very interested and aware of internet polls. Not a criticism whatsoever but something to bear in mind. IIRC FF/FG got under represented in the Boards General Election poll, SF and ULA type parties, over represented.

Hijpo wrote: »

So you can see how someone can be against the household tax? This is premptive so we dont get to that stae of paying for bail outs. Im already paying for MY OWN loans on MY house and MY car, these are MY loans ill never pay for some greedy rich bastards debt for him.

I can see why people are opposed to it definitely.

tayto lover wrote:

I think Donal is just wumming here.
Either that or he's Sly Phil.

Copying and pasting and accusing posters of shills seems to be all you want to add.

The only "shill" here is a poster who posts very little else than anti charge stuff and I wouldn't call him/her a shill, just passionate about it. Slurs are easier I suppose.

donalg1 · 02-02-2012 11:23am

tayto lover wrote: »

“It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home” – Enda Kenny, 1994

Shut up, if that is the only contribution you can make here I think you are done and should gtfo and head to a different thread

Phill Ewinn · 02-02-2012 12:44pm

donalg1 wrote: »

Shut up, if that is the only contribution you can make here I think you are done and should gtfo and head to a different thread

Thunderdome

>

Anyway. Having asked people in the 'real' world I worked out the pole is about accurate. It's only poeple taken in by RTE's usual BS coverage and people over 65 that want to pay.

Fair play to them. If they have €100 to waste. I rather see the money go to a good cause than waste it though.

donalg1 · 02-02-2012 1:28pm

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Thunderdome
>

Anyway. Having asked people in the 'real' world I worked out the pole is about accurate. It's only poeple taken in by RTE's usual BS coverage and people over 65 that want to pay.

Fair play to them. If they have €100 to waste. I rather see the money go to a good cause than waste it though.

Thunderdome? maybe he should go there too seeing as he is constantly reposting that post for weeks now.

I dont watch listen to or pay any attention to RTE and I am nowhere near 65 and will be paying. I wouldnt be at all surprised if some of those on here saying there is no way they are ever going to pay this charge dont have a change of mind when the 31st of March is looming, I am sure there are plenty that wont pay but I think the numbers paying will increase an awful lot the closer to the date we get.

Phill Ewinn · 02-02-2012 1:37pm

Donal is in the 'for wasting €100' camp. I'm not. Who do you reckon is right????

No point argueing. There's plenty of people in genuine need of that kind of cash. I'll be outside mass as I regularly do a few Sundays a year. Collecting from people who give a sh1t.

Meanwhile you'll be wasting that money, gambling on a non-runner. Each to their own I guess.

SafeSurfer · 02-02-2012 1:45pm

Fine Gael anti property tax poster 1994

http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/they-will-tax-the-roof-over-your-head-fine-gael-anti-property-tax-leaflet-1994/

donalg1 · 02-02-2012 1:49pm

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Donal is in the 'for wasting €100' camp. I'm not. Who do you reckon is right????

No point argueing. There's plenty of people in genuine need of that kind of cash. I'll be outside mass as I regularly do a few Sundays a year. Collecting from people who give a sh1t.

Meanwhile you'll be wasting that money, gambling on a non-runner. Each to their own I guess.

Wasting €100, sure I could claim all my taxes are a waste of money and not pay them, no more motor tax, screw the consequences. IMO insurance is a waste of money so maybe I wont bother insuring my car either and screw the consequences of that too. Sure why dont we all decide what taxes to pay and what not to pay I am sure nothing bad could happen.

"Collecting from people who give a sh1t" what are you even talking about?

donalg1 · 02-02-2012 1:52pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Fine Gael anti property tax poster 1994

http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/they-will-tax-the-roof-over-your-head-fine-gael-anti-property-tax-leaflet-1994/

What does the 1994 part refer to?

Phill Ewinn · 02-02-2012 1:55pm

You're saying you disagree with the Taoiseach then. You're saying it's not morally wrong to pay this tax? I never heard the Taoiseach tell me motor tax is unfair etc.....

It's your money. Waste it how you want. But don't let me lend you any morality or sense or justice.

tayto lover · 02-02-2012 1:56pm

donalg1 wrote: »

What does the 1994 part refer to?

Probably this able gentleman's ideas
http://www.theemergency.ie/wp-content/uploads/EndaHP_932244a1.jpg

donalg1 · 02-02-2012 2:07pm

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

You're saying you disagree with the Taoiseach then. You're saying it's not morally wrong to pay this tax? I never heard the Taoiseach tell me motor tax is unfair etc.....

It's your money. Waste it how you want. But don't let me lend you any morality or sense or justice.

Are you saying someone cant change their mind after 18 years when the economy is 1million percent different now compared to what it was 18years ago??

Morality sense of justice what is that supposed to mean, the government have introduced a household charge and instructed homeowners to pay €100 so I am going to pay it, how is that immoral, if you are concerned with justice surely abiding by the laws of this country has something to do with justice.

Although alot of people here seem to think they have rights as citizens to pick and choose the laws they abide by.

SafeSurfer · 02-02-2012 2:07pm

donalg1 wrote: »

What does the 1994 part refer to?

Enda likes this "thumbs up".

donalg1 · 02-02-2012 2:15pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Enda likes this "thumbs up".

Hardly refers to the year 1994 now does it? I wouldnt imagine anyone would think something relating to the economic situation in 1994 has any relevance to today's economic situation

Tenderloins1 · 02-02-2012 2:24pm

donalg1 wrote: »

Hardly refers to the year 1994 now does it? I wouldnt imagine anyone would think something relating to the economic situation in 1994 has any relevance to today's economic situation

Its more relevant in that the arguments against a Property Tax or at least a fair one are contained within the leaflet.

tayto lover · 02-02-2012 2:28pm

The F.G./Labour parties will soon be coming onto our radios and televisions trying their best to scare people by manipulating the number who have paid the property tax in order to get us to pay. People do not fall for it. This tax will only fail if we stand together and refuse -- it is unjust.
I am told they have their plans made for this campaign of scaremongering.

There comes a time when people get tired of being plunged into the abyss of exploitation and nagging injustice. ~Martin Luther King, Jr., Stride Toward Freedom: The Montgomery Story, 1958

Phill Ewinn · 02-02-2012 2:36pm

donalg1 wrote: »

Are you saying someone cant change their mind after 18 years when the economy is 1million percent different now compared to what it was 18years ago??

Morality sense of justice what is that supposed to mean, the government have introduced a household charge and instructed homeowners to pay €100 so I am going to pay it, how is that immoral, if you are concerned with justice surely abiding by the laws of this country has something to do with justice.

Although alot of people here seem to think they have rights as citizens to pick and choose the laws they abide by.

There's been immoral and unjust laws in lots of countries. N.Korea, China, South Africa in the sixties????

He's said it's unfair. It's the same now as it was then. Time doesn't change morality.

This new tax raises the cost of living here. It makes the country even more uncompetitive. Now correct me if I'm wrong here but Enda said during the week his priority was job creation. This new tax won't help..

ilovesleep · 02-02-2012 5:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The key difference between the poll tax and rates was it was the person not the property that was taxed!

Poll Tax
One house + one adult = 1 tax
One house + four adults = 4 taxes
House size or type didn't matter.

Rates

One house + one adult = 1 tax
One house + four adults = 1 tax

Rates based on house size & value.

That poll tax is horrific! Dress it up in any way you want but that's a tax on people.

Am Chile · 02-02-2012 5:14pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Fine Gael anti property tax poster 1994

http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/they-will-tax-the-roof-over-your-head-fine-gael-anti-property-tax-leaflet-1994/

Nice reminder, here,s a more recent reminder of what fine gael said prior to the election.

From the Fine Gael Manifesto

8. Taxation of Property and Wealth

Fianna Fail’s proposal, now endorsed by the Labour Party, to introduce by 2014 an annual, recurring residential property tax on the family home is unfair for three reasons:
...
• The initial flat rate charge means that houses in standard neighbourhoods worth
a fraction of some mansions will pay the same rate of tax.
• It will be difficult to pay for asset‐rich but income poor households, particularly
the elderly and the unemployed; and
• It will be deeply unfair for a young generation that paid exorbitant amounts of
stamp duty and VAT on the purchases on over‐valued houses, many of whom
now find themselves in negative equity.

http://www.finegael2011.com/pdf/LessWasteLowerTaxesStrongerGrowth.pdf

K-9 · 02-02-2012 5:24pm

Am Chile wrote: »

Nice reminder, here,s a more recent reminder of what fine gael said prior to the election.

From the Fine Gael Manifesto

http://www.finegael2011.com/pdf/LessWasteLowerTaxesStrongerGrowth.pdf

What did it say in the programme for Government? Manifestos aren't really worth much in a country that seems to always have coalitions now.

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Comments