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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #2132
    bossdrum
    Registered Users Posts: 350 ✭✭bossdrum


    LandL84 wrote: »
    €100 a year is not such a big deal, in my opinion. I currently live in UK and pay £998 council tax a year + rent £410 a month for a tiny studio appartment, where I live with my partner. We also have no parking. We just can't afford bigger house with private or off road parking (where council tax also increases depending on the size and value of the house). I don't see a point paying it, it's a rip off. But we have no choice.. When we move back to Ireland we'll gladly pay that €100 houshold tax, because it's nothing compared to what we pay at the moment..

    Any changes, new taxes make people angry and rebellious, that's understandable.


    When are people going to finally understand that its not going to be €100 next year:rolleyes:


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    #2133
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    bossdrum wrote: »
    When are people going to finally understand that its not going to be €100 next year:rolleyes:

    QFT.
    THE PROPOSED PROPERTY tax will raise around €500 million in annual revenue, three times more than the new household charge will bring in, the Taoiseach Enda Kenny has said.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/property-tax-will-raise-around-e500m-taoiseach-312372-Dec2011/

    €300 minimum next year folks.
    Read it and weep.

    Don't register, Don't pay.


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    #2134
    run_Forrest_run
    Registered Users Posts: 6,398 ✭✭✭run_Forrest_run


    I'll pay if Magda pays.


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    #2135
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,659 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    bossdrum wrote: »
    When are people going to finally understand that its not going to be €100 next year:rolleyes:

    I understand but in my opinion it is foolish to turn that €100 into €142 in a year. Unless you can make your house invisible the tax will be recovered at some stage and you will just have made yourself a whole lot poorer unnecessarily.


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    #2136
    hawkelady
    Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭hawkelady


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    I understand but in my opinion it is foolish to turn that €100 into €142 in a year. Unless you can make your house invisible the tax will be recovered at some stage and you will just have made yourself a whole lot poorer unnecessarily.

    How are they going to catch you if you dont pay?? calling at the front door and asking?
    im genuinely curious btw


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    #2137
    Voodoo_rasher
    Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Voodoo_rasher


    "How are they going to catch you if you dont pay?? calling at the front door and asking?
    im genuinely curious btw"

    There is a quango called the Property Registration Authority (Formerly the Land Register) that mysteriously is missing from the public debate.
    Can the numbskulls not consult that? Then again we've so many quangos..how would the numbskulls know with the name change ha ha?


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    #2138
    Gareth2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Gareth2011


    hawkelady wrote: »
    How are they going to catch you if you dont pay?? calling at the front door and asking?
    im genuinely curious btw

    They give you the option to register to avoid penalities etc. Just because you don't register it doesn't mean they dont know who has and hasn't paid. If you don't register you get a fine plus maybe go to court. If you still don't pay maybe prision or it will just stay attached to the property. So you won't be able to sell without it being paid or if it is sold it will be taken from the proceeds of the sale. In a sentance. You can't get away with it no matter what you do. Also there was talk of it coming from your wages, pension or Social welfare.


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    #2139
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Gareth2011 wrote: »
    Also there was talk of it coming from your wages, pension or Social welfare.

    There is no legislation to automatically take any fine directly from wages, pension or social welfare payments.


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    #2140
    Gareth2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Gareth2011


    mikom wrote: »
    There is no legislation to automatically take any fine directly from wages, pension or social welfare payments.

    Not fine the 100 squid. But I know that currently it is illegal to take it from your wages. BUT at present there is something similar in use with the social welfare. If there was an overpayment to you at some stage in the past they send you out the letter with forms to fill out authorizing them to take back the overpayment each week tilll its cleared. If you don't send back the form and ignore it they take it out of your social weekly anywaytill its cleared. So maybe the 100 will work in the same way.


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    #2141
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Gareth2011 wrote: »
    So maybe the 100 will work in the same way.


    Maybe, but not at present.

    Cannabis is legal.
    Maybe, but not at present.


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    #2142
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Gareth2011 wrote: »
    They give you the option to register to avoid penalities etc. Just because you don't register it doesn't mean they dont know who has and hasn't paid. If you don't register you get a fine plus maybe go to court. If you still don't pay maybe prision or it will just stay attached to the property. So you won't be able to sell without it being paid or if it is sold it will be taken from the proceeds of the sale. In a sentance. You can't get away with it no matter what you do. Also there was talk of it coming from your wages, pension or Social welfare.

    I would also imagine if they register a charge against your property the only way you can have it removed is through a deed of discharge which I am guessing the owner will have to pay for so will cost them more again!!


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    #2143
    LandL84
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭LandL84


    Conall Cernach wrote: »
    In the UK you can avail of the NHS to get stuff like free healthcare and dental work. Your council will also provide many services for this council tax which will not be the case here.
    NHS has nothing to do with council tax, we pay National Insurance for that stuff. Personaly I went to doctors twice in tree years and I already paid probably more than £2000 NI during all that time I live here (3 years and few months). And that's not including PAYE tax.
    Personaly us don't get anything from council, roads are really bad where we live, no parking, CCTV is useless, our car has been vandalised twice and nothing was done, police just didn't bother..we haven't got kids, so we don't need to use schools, etc. There's a lot of things I could say.. I don't even remember how many parking fines we got in the last year and a half :pac: just makes me laugh that's all...

    In the other hand, if household taxes will increase in Ireland in the future and people won't get any services and development in the area I will not agree with it.


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    #2144
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    donalg1 wrote: »
    I would also imagine if they register a charge against your property the only way you can have it removed is through a deed of discharge which I am guessing the owner will have to pay for so will cost them more again!!

    The threat they make if you don,t pay they put a charge on someones property is Not an automatic charge. It may become one but it would take a court case to order it. This is by no means certain to happen. If it ever did happen the charge can only be for a period of 12 years, it's not forever so no need for anyone to get too hung up about it. Only has an effect if the house was to be sold or the likes of that within 12 years.

    Don't Register - Don't Pay is the cleanest and easiest way to defeat this tax.


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    #2145
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Am Chile wrote: »
    The threat they make if you don,t pay they put a charge on someones property is Not an automatic charge. It may become one but it would take a court case to order it. This is by no means certain to happen. If it ever did happen the charge can only be for a period of 12 years, it's not forever so no need for anyone to get too hung up about it. Only has an effect if the house was to be sold or the likes of that within 12 years.

    Don't Register - Don't Pay is the cleanest and easiest way to defeat this tax.

    Well 12 years is a long time and I for one dont think it is worth the risk of having a charge put on my property when I know its not guaranteed to happen but I also dont know its not going to be put on. So I wont take the risk.


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    #2146
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,577 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Well 12 years is a long time and I for one dont think it is worth the risk of having a charge put on my property when I know its not guaranteed to happen but I also dont know its not going to be put on. So I wont take the risk.

    I still won't pay.
    They can do whatever the hell they want but not "a single cent" will I pay.
    That CLOWN making a show of himself and out country messing around with Sarcozy and he making a complete fool of him and laughing up his sleeve at him.
    What an absolute joke of a labrador we have running the country. He seems to be allowing himself to be used as the entertainment at those meetings.


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    #2147
    Joshua Jones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 246 ✭✭Joshua Jones


    See the mongers of fear are still at it!. Doesn't seem to be working, the no side keeps growing by the day. Shill fail.


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    #2148
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    hawkelady wrote: »
    How are they going to catch you if you dont pay?? calling at the front door and asking?
    im genuinely curious btw
    I think the idea is that whenever you sell your house you will have to show you paid or else your solicitor will have to deduct it.
    It happened to me with the bin charges, when I sold my house in ballinteer the sale couldnt go through until Dun Laoighre Rathdown were paid for the bins, it cost me a fortune at the time (2008).


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    #2149
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,659 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Joshua Jones wrote: »
    See the mongers of fear are still at it!. Doesn't seem to be working, the no side keeps growing by the day. Shill fail.

    Or another way of looking at it would be to ask why anyone would have paid already. If you have to withdraw €100 from your savings or add it to your credit card debt why do it now and not wait until near the deadline. This poll on Boards may or may not be representative of the view of private house owners but regardless of that the law is there now and the campaign to have it removed from the statute books will not succeed.


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    #2150
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,659 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Am Chile wrote: »
    The threat they make if you don,t pay they put a charge on someones property is Not an automatic charge. It may become one but it would take a court case to order it. This is by no means certain to happen. If it ever did happen the charge can only be for a period of 12 years, it's not forever so no need for anyone to get too hung up about it. Only has an effect if the house was to be sold or the likes of that within 12 years.

    Don't Register - Don't Pay is the cleanest and easiest way to defeat this tax.

    I'm glad someone is paying attention and noticed that 12 year clause. I never mentioned it before because it doesn't help my argument but it would be cold enough comfort for the family of someone who planned to use it to find if he/she popped their clogs after 10 years they lost a big chunk of their inheritance. A lot of things can change in 12 years and just knowing you were building up a massive debt would make life a bit less pleasant for a lot of people.


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    #2151
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,577 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Or another way of looking at it would be to ask why anyone would have paid already. If you have to withdraw €100 from your savings or add it to your credit card debt why do it now and not wait until near the deadline. This poll on Boards may or may not be representative of the view of private house owners but regardless of that the law is there now and the campaign to have it removed from the statute books will not succeed.

    It might well succeed. I can't see this crowd lasting too long and there will be a trade off for votes when the next election comes around. I am old enough to have seen things like this occurring before.


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    #2152
    Hijpo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,793 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    LandL84 wrote: »
    Conall Cernach wrote: »
    In the UK you can avail of the NHS to get stuff like free healthcare and dental work. Your council will also provide many services for this council tax which will not be the case here.
    NHS has nothing to do with council tax, we pay National Insurance for that stuff. Personaly I went to doctors twice in tree years and I already paid probably more than £2000 NI during all that time I live here (3 years and few months). And that's not including PAYE tax.
    Personaly us don't get anything from council, roads are really bad where we live, no parking, CCTV is useless, our car has been vandalised twice and nothing was done, police just didn't bother..we haven't got kids, so we don't need to use schools, etc. There's a lot of things I could say.. I don't even remember how many parking fines we got in the last year and a half :pac: just makes me laugh that's all...

    In the other hand, if household taxes will increase in Ireland in the future and people won't get any services and development in the area I will not agree with it.

    So you can see how someone can be against the household tax? This is premptive so we dont get to that stae of paying for bail outs. Im already paying for MY OWN loans on MY house and MY car, these are MY loans ill never pay for some greedy rich bastards debt for him.


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    #2153
    Bishop_Donal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    This tax should be levied on ESB bills as an increased government levy. If it was just added as an extra Eur17 per bill no-one would even notice (and they would just have to pay it). Even when it increases to Eur700, it would still only amount to a little over Eur100 per bill which is still easily manageable. At that level it would sort out 7% of the gap in the exchequer position which is a small start in the required process.

    Vast majority of relevant properties are connected to the grid, so compliance would naturally be high.

    However as a result of the way it is being levied the Local Authorities will now have to do searches on the relevant databases that they can use without breaching Data Protection Act to build up the requisite database. I suppose the electoral register would be a decent starting point. What a shambles.


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    #2154
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    This tax should be levied on ESB bills as an increased government levy. If it was just added as an extra Eur17 per bill no-one would even notice (and they would just have to pay it). Even when it increases to Eur700, it would still only amount to a little over Eur100 per bill which is still easily manageable. At that level it would sort out 7% of the gap in the exchequer position which is a small start in the required process.

    Vast majority of relevant properties are connected to the grid, so compliance would naturally be high.

    However as a result of the way it is being levied the Local Authorities will now have to do searches on the relevant databases that they can use without breaching Data Protection Act to build up the requisite database. I suppose the electoral register would be a decent starting point. What a shambles.

    That's all very well, but quite a large number of families are already in arrears with their ESB bills. Suppose their power should be cut off until they pay in full. A money lenders dream senario...:rolleyes:


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    #2155
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    This tax should be levied on ESB bills as an increased government levy. If it was just added as an extra Eur17 per bill no-one would even notice (and they would just have to pay it). Even when it increases to Eur700, it would still only amount to a little over Eur100 per bill which is still easily manageable. At that level it would sort out 7% of the gap in the exchequer position which is a small start in the required process.

    Vast majority of relevant properties are connected to the grid, so compliance would naturally be high.

    However as a result of the way it is being levied the Local Authorities will now have to do searches on the relevant databases that they can use without breaching Data Protection Act to build up the requisite database. I suppose the electoral register would be a decent starting point. What a shambles.

    You just don't give up do you? It seems like a personal crusade you're on to collect this tax one way or another.

    Believe it or not Gerry Ryan came up with a great idea to raise revenue without incurring the wrath of the population,simply add 1c to the price of text messages.Nobody would care and the sheer amount sent in this country would generate a lot of money for the government.

    The problem with the €100 charge is that it's just a stepping stone to more charges and increased rates.I'd say that the majority of folk wouldn't mind paying if they were guaranteed it'd be capped and they'd actually see something for their money-as it stands it seems no different than handing €100 to a complete stranger on the street or giving your details to a Nigerian Prince who happened to email you.


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    #2156
    psychward
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭psychward


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    I suppose the electoral register would be a decent starting point. What a shambles.

    No wonder people don't even bother to vote.


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    #2157
    Bishop_Donal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    galwayrush wrote: »
    That's all very well, but quite a large number of families are already in arrears with their ESB bills. Suppose their power should be cut off until they pay in full. A money lenders dream senario...:rolleyes:

    That is a matter of choice for quite a number of people. There are plenty of people who depend on SW in this country who are keeping their bills uptodate too. You'd have to wonder why some can do it, and others can't? Maybe it's because some people prioritise some discretionary expenditure at a higher level than they ought to? They will be the very same people who won't pay their property tax (or in fact are not willing to make any further contribution towards putting this country back on a stable footing). Yet, they think somebody somewhere will continue to make sure they have all the services they require. Don't close the hospital at my crossroads......


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    #2158
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,659 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    galwayrush wrote: »
    That's all very well, but quite a large number of families are already in arrears with their ESB bills. Suppose their power should be cut off until they pay in full. A money lenders dream senario...:rolleyes:

    Some of those families may be in public housing or private rented accommodation and not liable to the charge. Plenty of hard cases out there for sure but it is good to know some other families are managing to put some money aside. This is the amount held in personal savings accounts between banks, credit unions and state savings.

    €100,000,000,000.

    The savings ratio in Ireland is quite high and some people argue that a bigger percentage of money needs to be put back into circulation to help the economy.


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    #2159
    Bishop_Donal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    zerks wrote: »
    You just don't give up do you? It seems like a personal crusade you're on to collect this tax one way or another.

    Believe it or not Gerry Ryan came up with a great idea to raise revenue without incurring the wrath of the population,simply add 1c to the price of text messages.Nobody would care and the sheer amount sent in this country would generate a lot of money for the government.

    The problem with the €100 charge is that it's just a stepping stone to more charges and increased rates.I'd say that the majority of folk wouldn't mind paying if they were guaranteed it'd be capped and they'd actually see something for their money-as it stands it seems no different than handing €100 to a complete stranger on the street or giving your details to a Nigerian Prince who happened to email you.

    I'll give up supporting increased taxation in this country when the country is back in balance, and when broad based taxes are introduced which ensure we never get into this mess again.

    IMO, the charge should have been introduced at a min of Eur1,000 per house - hence your second point is irrelevant from my personal perspective.


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    #2160
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    That is a matter of choice. There are plenty of people who depend on SW in this country who are keeping their bills uptodate too. You'd have to wonder why some can do it, and others can't? Maybe it's because some people prioritise some discretionary expenditure at a higher level than they ought to? They will be the very same people who won't pay their property tax (or in fact are not willing to make any further contribution towards putting this country back on a stable footing). Yet, they think somebody somewhere will continue to make sure they have all the services they require. Don't close the hospital at my crossroads......

    Choice? Selfish stupid people for losing their jobs? Stupid self employed people with no income because when there is no work?(there is no state help for them. ) Selfish people prioritising things like food / heating ahead of paying a property tax.. Yeah, shame on them...:rolleyes:


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    #2161
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    This tax should be levied on ESB bills as an increased government levy. If it was just added as an extra Eur17 per bill no-one would even notice (and they would just have to pay it). Even when it increases to Eur700, it would still only amount to a little over Eur100 per bill which is still easily manageable. At that level it would sort out 7% of the gap in the exchequer position which is a small start in the required process.

    Vast majority of relevant properties are connected to the grid, so compliance would naturally be high.

    However as a result of the way it is being levied the Local Authorities will now have to do searches on the relevant databases that they can use without breaching Data Protection Act to build up the requisite database. I suppose the electoral register would be a decent starting point. What a shambles.
    Are you nuts?
    its a household tax on owners, not tenants renting, or local authority tenants.
    How would you figure out whose utility bills to put it on?
    You get people who are paying it a bad name.


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