How to Use A Roundabout

Iwannahurl · 21-02-2011 12:55pm

Vertakill wrote: »

Well, according to the RSA in 2006'ish, this was the preferred method. Also, many driving instructors who've started up business around this time are STILL teaching this method to road users to this day. This is clear by the number of Irish driving instructor websites that are still quoting the old 'sequential method' (there's a list of all of them posted in this thread somewhere).
But if you had read any of this thread, you would've known that.

Also, you refer to users of the 'sequential method' as 'lefties', which is ironic, considering people using said method are the people who would actually be using the right hand lane more often than most road users.

I think it may be incorrect to assume that the sequential method is still being taught, on the basis that there are a few websites out there still referring to it.

Those websites may be out of date, for example, or may represent only a very tiny minority of driving schools.

The problem may be more a combination of (1) a large cohort of motorists being used to older guidelines and (2) a defective RoTR not 'repealing' the old method properly.

Remember that we have already had one instance quoted in this thread of an ex-Garda driver with advanced motoring qualifications concurring with the view that the RoTR guidelines are flawed.

Vertakill · 21-02-2011 1:31pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I think it may be incorrect to assume that the sequential method is still being taught, on the basis that there are a few websites out there still referring to it.

Those websites may be out of date, for example, or may represent only a very tiny minority of driving schools.

Ok that's possibly true. I learned about 5 years ago to drive by a local driving instructor and he taught me the sequential method. One of my mate's gf is now learning to drive now from the same driving instructor so I'll see if anything has changed on the roundabout front.

pippip · 21-02-2011 1:46pm

I did my test about 5yrs ago and the instructor explained it as a clock face and anything past 1oclock position is a right hand turn....indicate right and right hand lane. Very simple and never had a problem with it.

Amazing the amount of roundabouts that have lane markings using the left hand lane as left exit only and the right hand lane for straight ahead and nobody paying attention and cutting people off.

Zubeneschamali · 21-02-2011 2:53pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The point is -- and I am getting RSI trying to explain this -- the RoTR does not provide a satisfactory, clear and unified approach for all drivers and all roundabouts.

You keep saying this, but I don't see it.

Nobody would read the current RotR and dream up the sequential method. There is no longer anything in there to support the "first, second, later exits" idea.

The only issue is that people who learned the sequential method will not find a statement in the RotR saying "The sequential method was wrong, don't use it".

zynaps · 21-02-2011 3:01pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Nonsesne.
Any exit after straight on, right lane.
There, done.

No, that's the clock method. He was explaining the sequential method, as requested.

Vertakill wrote: »

It's the people that overuse the left hand lane that cause the incidents on roundabout, not the people in the right/inner lane. And the RotR method clearly underuses the right hand lane... so make up your own conclusions.

This is the interesting bit IMO. For big roundabouts with a number of exits on the left, you won't risk cutting off so many people by passing them in the inside right lane with the sequential method. On the other hand, you will have to change lanes to exit, and you can certainly cut someone off then.

So I suppose a simulated model would be needed to get any insight into which method, in situations where they produce different results, is safer.

Iwannahurl · 21-02-2011 3:15pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You keep saying this, but I don't see it.

Nobody would read the current RotR and dream up the sequential method. There is no longer anything in there to support the "first, second, later exits" idea.

The only issue is that people who learned the sequential method will not find a statement in the RotR saying "The sequential method was wrong, don't use it".

Semantics!!

I think you'll find there is some agreement in this thread and IRL that the RoTR is flawed. For example, I've already quoted a senior person in the Advanced Driving world to that effect. Also the RSA were unable to advise regarding the OP's roundabout without mentioning 12 o'clock, which, as has been pointed out here over and over again, is not mentioned good bad or indifferent in the RoTR.

It's not a question of anyone looking at the current RoTR and "dreaming up" the sequential method after the revised rules appeared in 2006. It's a case of Sequentialists looking at the revised RoTR and not seeing anything that contradicts their (now erroneous) method. The sequential method was not "wrong" when it was in widespread use. It is now "wrong" because it has been superseded. The problem is that the RoTR is ambiguous enough so as to allow the sequential method to co-exist. Read this thread fully!!!

I can't remember whether you commented on the RSA's response, so I'll ask you directly here: if the RoTR is all that's needed to explain how to navigate the OP's roundabout, why did the RSA feel the need to invoke the Clock method?

.

Zubeneschamali · 21-02-2011 3:26pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

if the RoTR is all that's needed to explain how to navigate the OP's roundabout, why did the RSA feel the need to invoke the Clock method?

If you ask the RSA to explain the RotR in relation to roundabouts, it would not be helpful if they just copy-pasted an answer from the Rules: you've already read those. They should come up with an explanation which expands on the rules and how to apply them.

Personally, I don't like the 12 o'clock language, but evidently some people find it useful.

Iwannahurl · 21-02-2011 3:32pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If you ask the RSA to explain the RotR in relation to roundabouts, it would not be helpful if they just copy-pasted an answer from the Rules: you've already read those. They should come up with an explanation which expands on the rules and how to apply them.

Personally, I don't like the 12 o'clock language, but evidently some people find it useful.

Incorrect.

It's the reliability/validity of the RoTR which is in question.

If I ask the RSA to detail how the OP's roundabout should be navigated, with specific reference to the RoTR, then that's what they should give me.

If the RSA's response relies on guidelines not published in the RoTR, then IMO that is a strong indication that the RSA itself does not rely on the RoTR.

If the RoTR cannot be relied on to give clear and comprehensive guidelines regarding the use of roundabouts, then what are motorists using the older 'rules' supposed to rely on?

.

Zubeneschamali · 21-02-2011 3:45pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If I ask the RSA to detail how the OP's roundabout should be navigated, with specific reference to the RoTR, then that's what they should give me.

Would you really be happy if they just copy-pasted the "straight ahead" and "later exits" chunk of the RotR as an answer?

They know you've read them, but for some reason you didn't understand them. So they expanded on them in their answer.

Iwannahurl · 21-02-2011 11:42pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Would you really be happy if they just copy-pasted the "straight ahead" and "later exits" chunk of the RotR as an answer?

They know you've read them, but for some reason you didn't understand them. So they expanded on them in their answer.

1. That's not what I asked them to do. Reason: the RoTR is what's at issue (see multiple posts passim), not any 'expansion'.

2. Tell you what, since you insist on framing this issue as if I (and some other posters) are just being stupid/obtuse, let us know if you are willing to contact the independent Advanced Driving expert I mentioned earlier in the thread, in order to get his professional perspective on the matter.

If so, I will PM you his contact details, on the proviso that you will (a) faithfully report back what you discussed and (b) do not name or otherwise identify him on Boards.

Deal? If not, I'll conclude that you are being obtuse! :cool:

Iwannahurl · 21-02-2011 11:46pm

FYI.

aido76 wrote: »

Petty a lot of people can't read sign posts and road markings that tell them what lane to take. If your coming out from the city, at the roundabout after the racecourse, it has a left turn only on the left lane for Monivea/Parkmore and the right lane is for the N6. You see a lot of people on the left lane and pass the exit for Monivea and head out the N6.
I nearly hit a woman that thought it was a good idea to go the whole way around to the exit for Dunnes in Briarhill from the left lane. When I blew the horn at her she looked at me as if I was in the wrong and not an indicator in sight!!! Madness really.

The RSA need to have one rule only regarding roundabouts of all descriptions and advertise it. When I was learning the ROTR had 2 examples of how to use a roundabout. The first was a diagram of a standard 4 arm roundabout and the captions under it saying use the left lane if turning left, Use the left lane if going straight on, use the right lane if turning right. You can use the right lane to go straight on if there are 2 lanes exiting. The second example had no diagram, just a written example and was done by the exit number you were taking. 1st exit left lane, 2nd exit left lane or right lane if there are 2 lanes exiting, third and subsequent exits right lane. I asked my driving instructor what was the right way to negotiate a roundabout and he told me before 12 o clock left lane, after 12 o clock right lane. I thought he was saying to be in the left lane in the morning and right lane in the afternoon:D. At the end of the day there needs to be one rule. If you have 3-4 different rules then you will have accidents as one person might be right in their thinking and the other might be right in the way they are thinking as a lot of roundabouts are not standard anymore.

jimmyw · 21-02-2011 11:50pm

Ah jaysus, this thread is still going, bloody hell give it a rest and move on:mad::rolleyes: Close the feckin thing mods will ye:p.

-Chris- · 21-02-2011 11:56pm

You know what, I think you're right.

@everyone - Please don't PM me to get this thread reopened.

I will reopen this thread if any new material facts come to light. Please feel free to PM me if you become aware of any NEW information that will MOVE THE CONVERSATION FORWARD.

Thread closed (and may God have mercy on us all).

vibe666 · 22-02-2011 2:56pm

I just received a pretty thorough explanation (based on this thread) from the communications manager at the RSA this morning.

I had emailed him on the 14th and pointed him to the thread and explained the poll and the near 50/50 split in opinion etc. and he mailed me back a few days later to say he was reading through everything and would come ack to me with a definitive answer in a few days and this was his final reply.

i forwarded on a copy of the original to -Chris- with all the contact info so he can verify it's genuine, but i've removed any personally identifiable info from the post so the poor guy doesn't get inundated with emails.

Forwarded message
From: Brian
Date: 22 February 2011 08:45
Subject: FW: Overdue : Public Information Request
To: vibe666

Dear Mr. vibe666,

Please see the note below re navigating a roundabout in response to your email of the 7th February. I hope this clears up the situation in relation to driving on a roundabout.

1. Well in advance of, and on the approach to a roundabout, a driver should look for directional arrows, road markings, and signs which tell the driver which lane to use for their intended direction.

2. The driver should move into the correct lane in good time.

3. At the roundabout, the driver should yield to traffic coming from the right, but should keep moving if the way is clear.

4. If turning left (that is any point from 0 and less than 180 degrees or from 6 o’clock to before 12 o’clock on the clock face regardless of the number of exits), the driver should signal left, and stay in the left hand lane when on the approach, when on the roundabout, and when leaving the roundabout.

5. If going straight ahead (that is a point at 180 degrees or 12 o’clock on the clock face regardless of the number of exits), the driver should check on the approach for directional arrows, road markings, or signs which may tell the driver which lane to use for their intended direction.
(a) The driver should stay in the left hand lane when on the approach, when on the roundabout, and when leaving the roundabout, however
(b) The driver may use the right hand lane on the approach...
(i) if the left hand lane is for left turn only,
(ii) is blocked,
(iii) where road markings or signs allow it, or
(iv) where a Garda directs it.
The driver should be aware that this involves 2 lane changes on the roundabout.
The driver should not signal left until having passed the exit before the one it is intended to take.
The driver should normally exit into the left hand lane if it is clear, but may exit into the right hand lane if one is provided and the left hand lane is not available.
Note;- `blocked` in (ii) above does not refer to normal traffic volume and movement.

6. If turning right (that is any point after 180 degrees or after 12 o’clock on the clock face regardless of the number of exits), the driver should signal right and stay in the right hand lane on the approach.
The driver should keep to the right on the roundabout.
The driver should signal left after having passed the exit before the one it is intended to take.
The driver should normally exit into the left hand lane if it is clear, but may exit into the right hand lane if one is provided and the left hand lane is not available.

7. Where a roundabout is controlled by traffic lights, they must be obeyed.

8. Where there are more than 2 lanes on the approach, or where other layouts are in place, a driver should look for and comply with directional arrows, road markings and signs which indicate the correct approach lane for the intended direction.

Enquiries relating to particular roundabouts may be directed to the Gardaí or to the local authorities.

The number of exits on the roundabout do not change or impact on the procedure laid out above.

Kind regards

Brian
RSA Communications Manager

-Chris- · 22-02-2011 3:00pm

And we have a winner!!!!

Thread closed and stickied.

Now, I command you all to start spreading the word - go forth and educate!!! :pac:

How to Use A Roundabout

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