Would you actually prefer if the Irish language didnt exist?

Marcus.Aurelius · 20-02-2011 5:46pm

Kill it and toss it away.

So Yes to the OP.

Naikon · 20-02-2011 5:53pm

I would prefer to speak klingon imo. Probably more people speaking that over Irish. English is the only lang I actually really need. Ever tried reading documentation translated from English to another lang? Not good. Fact remains, English is best when dealing with technical matters.

livinginkorea · 20-02-2011 6:03pm

I think they have to make it mandatory for the LC. That would mean that people who really wanted to study it would take it, meaning teachers and students would be more motivated to learn it. Learning Peig is not really useful anymore. More recent Irish culture has to be introduced. For years we seem to think that a person speaking Irish is some backward cultie who never left the village but the younger generation are going up with Irish schools and TG4.

I think if we made Irish optional then the level of it would be higher simply because it would not be forced and students would have their own reasons and motivation for studying it.

I love Irish but had some pretty bad teachers who were gone with the hurling team in secondary school so my level dropped a lot to only the odd word and phrase now. My primary school teacher was brilliant. He would act out stuff so well. I remember him changing into a tracksuit (he was also the headmaster so usually wore semi-casual) and with a football giving us the vocab and grammar for the game in Irish. Great stuff. That guy could teach. I went into education partly 'cas of him.

wurzlitzer · 20-02-2011 6:32pm

I do n' t think they teach peig anymore

I think the syllabus is changing on the LC

There is going to be more emphasis On speaking and listening

ShamoBuc · 20-02-2011 7:15pm

wurzlitzer wrote: »

I do n' t think they teach peig anymore

I think the syllabus is changing on the LC

There is going to be more emphasis On speaking and listening

I heard 40% of the leaving will be for the Oral - currently 25% I think - a good move - should have happened before now, better late than never I suppose.

Jeanious · 20-02-2011 7:41pm

By the logic that some people are applying to this situation, we'd all be mute if we didn't have to study English at school!

The problem is that there's absolutely no need or incentive to speak Irish outside of a school situation, and until that changes then it doesn't matter a sh1te if it's compulsory or not. 10 or 12 years of schooling (up to junior cert) should be utterly amply time to teach Irish, why split hairs over an extra couple of years? Give students the choice to study it or not....in fact, i'd support making every language including English optional for the Leaving Cert, while obviously making sure that not doing a language wouldn't bar students from college entry.

The very fact that we're having this debate after 70 or more years of compulsory Irish shows that it ain't working, at least not in it's current form.
The head in the sand approach of the department and others is keeping the language on its deathbed, not keeping it alive.
Surely it must be patently obvious that it should be taught as a language and not as a school subject.....Hands up who went around the house thinking about Pythagoras' theorem, the unit circle and integration?

dory · 20-02-2011 7:50pm

Whatever about the school system, I'm very glad we have our own language. I enjoy speaking, I think it sounds nicer than English.

ShamoBuc · 20-02-2011 8:13pm

dory wrote: »

Whatever about the school system, I'm very glad we have our own language. I enjoy speaking, I think it sounds nicer than English.

Irish being spoken by a native Gweedore cailín...... savage!!!

LordSutch · 20-02-2011 8:32pm

I am one of the people who argue that Enda is right in his quest to take out the compulsion of Irish in the leaving Cert, but I too would hate to see the Irish language die, indeed, (like Fine Gael) I would like to see the pressure taken off the language, which should in turn encourage the revival of Irish while being enjoyed by those who do wish to study it, and respected by those who don't.

Compulsion has been the curse of the Irish language, ever since it was made a Mandatory subject several decades ago . . .

123balltv · 20-02-2011 8:41pm

I speak English and love it

we can emigrate to America, Australia, England and Canada etc no problem
I would never want to learn the DEAD Irish language what happen with England hundreds of years ago :mad: was a long time ago.
we still watch Corrie/Eastenders/fools and horses/premier league etc

Seanchai · 21-02-2011 12:10am

123balltv wrote: »

I speak English and love it
we can emigrate to America, Australia, England and Canada etc no problem
I would never want to learn the DEAD Irish language what happen with England hundreds of years ago :mad: was a long time ago.
we still watch Corrie/Eastenders/fools and horses/premier league etc

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the sort of education level we are dealing with.

Mec-a-nic · 21-02-2011 12:50am

Nadser wrote: »

That's because it's mainly foreigners that work in them!

Sorry, nothing to do with nationality, I'm from here, worked in a shop and can't/won't speak it.

It was taught badly as a history subject in school, and the only thing I got in the Gaeltacht was fun with girls and a speech from the headmaster on how we should support the IRA... Put me off it for life, c'est la vie...

neil_hosey · 21-02-2011 12:53am

Mec-a-nic wrote: »

Sorry, nothing to do with nationality, I'm from here, worked in a shop and can't/won't speak it.

It was taught badly as a history subject in school, and the only thing I got in the Gaeltacht was fun with girls and a speech from the headmaster on how we should support the IRA... Put me off it for life, c'est la vie...

so because someone taught it badly to you in school, you refuse to make an effort? are you blaming other people on not doing better at it in school?

deise go deo · 21-02-2011 1:06am

LordSutch wrote: »

I am one of the people who argue that Enda is right in his quest to take out the compulsion of Irish in the leaving Cert, but I too would hate to see the Irish language die, indeed, (like Fine Gael) I would like to see the pressure taken off the language, which should in turn encourage the revival of Irish while being enjoyed by those who do wish to study it, and respected by those who don't.

Compulsion has been the curse of the Irish language, ever since it was made a Mandatory subject several decades ago . . .

I don't suppose you can back up your position with evidence? You know, examples of where this happened before and worked?

There is a fairly compelling(pardon the pun) Body of evidence that suggests the opposite will happen.

Mec-a-nic · 21-02-2011 1:12am

neil_hosey wrote: »

so because someone taught it badly to you in school, you refuse to make an effort? are you blaming other people on not doing better at it in school?

I think you might be jumping to conclusions. I made an effort all right, but it was the shoving of a subject down the throat (curriculum-wise) and the complete inflexibility of the proponents of that subject that pushed me away from it. (Wasn't aware of the loophole to avoid it forever...)

I did the bare minimum to scape a pass D and put all my efforts into enjoying the other subjects. Got loads of points, got a good university qualification, enjoy a nice career... I still learn new stuff everyday, but Gaeilge ain't one of them.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I think a lot of people are more angry at the way it was taught, rather than that it was taught at all. The curriculum for Irish verges on torture in many cases. It could, should, and wil be done a lot better.

Well put; there was an understanding that God/Padraic Pearse/Eire made it OK to beat it into people (literally in some cases). My aunt, an excellent teacher, pleaded with the Dept of Education her entire professional career to improve the way Irish should be taught, to no avail. They lost several generations of students to that subject.

Naikon · 21-02-2011 1:21am

Mec-a-nic wrote: »

I think you might be jumping to conclusions. I made an effort all right, but it was the shoving of a subject down the throat (curriculum-wise) and the complete inflexibility of the proponents of that subject that pushed me away from it. (Wasn't aware of the loophole to avoid it forever...)

I did the bare minimum to scape a pass D and put all my efforts into enjoying the other subjects. Got loads of points, got a good university qualification, enjoy a nice career... I still learn new stuff everyday, but Gaeilge ain't one of them.

What is this whole Irish is compulsory nonsense?. When you hit 18, sit the exams on your own behalf and just don't sit the Irish exam. No LC subject is compulsory. People who don't believe this need to get their facts straight.

IRISH IS NOT A COMPULSORY SUBJECT!!!

Mec-a-nic · 21-02-2011 1:35am

Naikon wrote: »

What is this whole Irish is compulsory nonsense?.

Ah, let me get my time machine and jump back to pre-internet, 1980's Ireland to put that to the powers that be, and my teenage self to re-re-repeat until I was over 18...

Irish was compulsory to generations of students which is why it is so hated/ignored now. I don't actively dislike it, it just has no relevance to my life, and I'd say many others of my generation.

Naikon · 21-02-2011 1:41am

Mec-a-nic wrote: »

Ah, let me get my time machine and jump back to pre-internet, 1980's Ireland to put that to the powers that be, and my teenage self to re-re-repeat until I was over 18...

Irish was compulsory to generations of students which is why it is so hated/ignored now. I don't actively dislike it, it just has no relevance to my life, and I'd say many others of my generation.

Fair enough. It just riles me when ill informed sindo journalists presume you must sit Irish. Just because most Institutions in this country decide they want this and that subject for matriculation, does not mean it's required. I thought journalists where oooh I dunno - supposed to actually investigate their claims?

Btw, the Internet has been around since the late 60's:p

deise go deo · 21-02-2011 1:47am

Mec-a-nic wrote: »

Ah, let me get my time machine and jump back to pre-internet, 1980's Ireland to put that to the powers that be, and my teenage self to re-re-repeat until I was over 18...

Irish was compulsory to generations of students which is why it is so hated/ignored now. I don't actively dislike it, it just has no relevance to my life, and I'd say many others of my generation.

There is really very little hate for the Irish Language, Its often talked about, and to be fair, you do get the odd randomer with a chip on their shoulder, but most people are generally supportive of the language.

Mec-a-nic · 21-02-2011 1:47am

Naikon wrote: »

ill informed sindo journalists

I think that might actually be the definition of Pleonasm

I thought the Sunday Independent died out with Fianna Fail...?

mjcom4d · 21-02-2011 1:47am

I would hate to see it gone tir gan teanga tir gan anam Ireland should reform it by promoting it more we have to speak a foreign language everyday and who knows in a few years we could be taken over by Europeans so we have to keep our national and official language and heritage

lmaopml · 21-02-2011 1:53am

Wibbs wrote: »

Yea but lmaopml you can't have it both ways. It either "stands on its own" or it doesn't. It hasn't stood without a crutch in 90 years. It is valuable, but it needs a polish after it's contraction from it's more lauded past. Moreso than French or Spanish? Irish though I am, I can't agree, nor objectively take that too seriously a statement. 1000 years ago, yes, today, no way.

It didn't take 'one thousand' years to die Wibbs, it's far more recent than that the language declined..it just takes a few people to vote 'not in favour'....and it will 'die'..! I hope they know what they are doing..

I think that would be unfortunate! Sorry..lol..but I do, and I was rather crap at it. 'Conversational' I could hold my own, but a fainne I don't have, my Dad did though, and my Grandad..

My little fella shows prospects with 'language' learning unlike myself, more like my hubby; not so much maths....I help him with his maths.. I'm glad he's learning 'Irish' though...I could help him out better with French when he is old enough..lol..but even then it's not my forte....

..still, I think the stuff that I don't particlularly 'excel' in is important..I see the value of it.

I think a child excels sometimes in languages, I see nothing outrageous about having Irish among the crowd...and in particular how much you learn by 'not' being good at it from a young age.....'Compulsory' has it's upsides..

Yeah, it's not a frequently spoken language, but hell, there are are plenty of 'Europeans' that don't associate so much with or encourage learning minority forces within the 'union'..

I think 'Irish' is important. If not 'economically' than most certainly as a learning curve, and more than that to 'identify' oneself among the crowd who proclaim their identity without anything near bashfulness..I don't think there would be a single European nation that would falter at this junction..cept us maybe..and imo sadly!

LordSutch · 21-02-2011 11:04am

mjcom4d wrote: »

:mad: Think of the men who died for iur independence

I'm not too sure about the whole independence argument. When the Republic left the UK, Wales stayed within, and the Welsh language has flourished, so, in fact I would say that since independence Irish has deminished, due to lack of funds (ironically, funds we cut off) when leaving the Union.

And in answer to you 'deise go deo' I would say that taking the compulsion out of Irish is the only thing we haven't tried, we know for a fact that eighty years of compulsion does not work, (so now its time for a different tack), trying from another angle, and I mean, lets face it, it is slightly embarrassing when people from abroad visit Ireland and scratch their heads thinking, "So if all you Irish folk study Irish for the whole of your school life, then why do so few of you actually speak it, or even like it" ?? :cool: Bit of a waste, all that money that gets pumped into Irish . . .

I say, give Enda's proposals a chance, (he really loves the language) and his proposals can't be any worse than what successive generations of Irish people have suffered at the ritual of Mandatory Irish, I know that Fianna Fail say that the "twenty year plan" is the way forward, but we have had many 'inititives' over the decades, and this 'twenty year' plan from FF is more of the same dead end BS.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 21-02-2011 4:00pm

LordSutch wrote: »

And in answer to you 'deise go deo' I would say that taking the compulsion out of Irish is the only thing we haven't tried, we know for a fact that eighty years of compulsion does not work, (so now its time for a different tack), trying from another angle, and I mean, lets face it, it is slightly embarrassing when people from abroad visit Ireland and scratch their heads thinking, "So if all you Irish folk study Irish for the whole of your school life, then why do so few of you actually speak it, or even like it" ?? :cool: Bit of a waste, all that money that gets pumped into Irish . . .

I say, give Enda's proposals a chance, (he really loves the language) and his proposals can't be any worse than what successive generations of Irish people have suffered at the ritual of Mandatory Irish, I know that Fianna Fail say that the "twenty year plan" is the way forward, but we have had many 'inititives' over the decades, and this 'twenty year' plan from FF is more of the same dead end BS.

Great point. I reckon take the compulsion away all the armchair gaelgeoirs will be forced to actually do something to help the language rather than just feel like they're doing something by insisting it stays compulsory.

My friend gave a good analogy the other night. Its like arguing with a creationist. Even if you were to accept their view that a God exists, there's no reason to believe their God is the real God. Similarly, if you accept Irish is worth reviving, there is no reason to believe the compulsory status is the right way of going about it.

I can't help but think a lot of the people inisisting Irish stays compulsory are people who feel they should be patriotic about the language but in their heart of hearts don't care enough to learn it. Insisting the next generation of kids learn it in school is their get-out card for not having to learn it themselves but still appearing loyal to Gaelige*

*referring to people in general. not to all pro-compulsion posters on boards

Borat_Sagdiyev · 21-02-2011 4:25pm

LighterGuy wrote: »

Personally,
I think the irish language is dead.

Dead in the sense it doesnt mean much in your average persons day to day life. We dont speak it. Everything is in english. Yeah sure for heritage we have dual language signs but when you're looking up the address of something you dont go for the irish version do you?

but for heritage yeah sure keep it around. But as a day to day language its not used in modern ireland.

Fine, you don't use it much in your everyday life, but there are those of us that do. Just because it doesn't exist in your life does not mean that it is dead.

I use it every day when speaking to my friends and family. I will help teach it to my daughter.

What the English did to try and kill the Irish language was bad, but what the Irish people that have zero respect for their own language are doing is just as bad. If you don't use it in your life, fine, don't wish it away and ruin things for the rest of us.

Wibbs · 21-02-2011 5:29pm

Borat_Sagdiyev wrote: »

What the English did to try and kill the Irish language was bad, but what the Irish people that have zero respect for their own language are doing is just as bad. If you don't use it in your life, fine, don't wish it away and ruin things for the rest of us.

No problem, I don't wish it away and the majority of what some may see as your language enemies in life or here don't either. So can you not step back even for even a millisecond and realise for just the once that for the majority of the people in this nation is is not "their" language and hasn't been for a long time. I mean open your eyes and ears and you might notice that outside a small minority of Irish people the rest don't speak or understand your language. Ask yourself why? And no, perfidious Albion, lack of funding and bad education aren't sufficient excuses anymore. Not a century later.

I can understand and indeed I actually support Irish speakers wanting to to preserve it, why the hell can't 99% of Irish speakers not get into their bloody heads that just because they keep ranting on about it being "our" language, it hasn't been ours as a nation for nigh on 150 years? Go back further than that in the urban centres(much further).

Then you get the head in the sand approach;

deise go deo wrote:

There is really very little hate for the Irish Language, Its often talked about, and to be fair, you do get the odd randomer with a chip on their shoulder, but most people are generally supportive of the language.

Yea so much so that well over over four fifths of Irish people can't speak a word of it. It beggars belief you see that as support. They may support(as I do) that it should be preserved among those who currently want to speak it, but I would put good money 99% of them wouldnt give a tinkers curse if it's kept beyond JC and even more would be happier if their kids had a grounding in a subject that might give them a career outside some artificial irish requirement.

This is why the Gaelgior types have a kiniption over even the slightest change to how the language is supported(propped up). They know that their so called ground swell of support is lip service at best.

I agree with LordSutch. You may actually garner more support if you removed it's compulsory status. Does the expression "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" exist as Gaelige?

Fluorescence · 21-02-2011 5:49pm

Wishing Irish simply didn't exist is a rather futile thing, don'tcha think?

Anyway, I did honours Irish all through school, came out of my Leaving 2 years ago with a c1, and haven't spoke cúpla focal since? Why? There's no need. No one I know speaks Irish, and nothing I need to read or research on is only available as Gaeilge. I'm not a vehemont anti-Irish person, more so apathetic - I simply don't care about it. It bears no significance or relevance to me. It could be totally wiped out and I wouldn't feel the effects of it.

As for everyone spouting too oft' repeated rubbish about how learning 1 language early in life makes it easier to learn others... Yes, but why not teach everyone Mandarin from the age of 4? Or Portuguese? Or Swahali? Why Irish? What merit does it have that everyone in the country must learn it, barring learning difficulties of some sort, and must be required to pass an exam in it to enter university? Sure, it'd be nice if it was taught well in schools, with a good curriculum and interested pupils who learned it with ease, but as far as I can discern there is no real need for it to be.

It can be revived. It could be spoken in every home in the country within a generation if we really wanted. What purpose would it serve?

deise go deo · 21-02-2011 5:52pm

LordSutch wrote: »

And in answer to you 'deise go deo' I would say that taking the compulsion out of Irish is the only thing we haven't tried, we know for a fact that eighty years of compulsion does not work, (so now its time for a different tack), trying from another angle, and I mean, lets face it, it is slightly embarrassing when people from abroad visit Ireland and scratch their heads thinking, "So if all you Irish folk study Irish for the whole of your school life, then why do so few of you actually speak it, or even like it" ?? :cool: Bit of a waste, all that money that gets pumped into Irish . . .

I say, give Enda's proposals a chance, (he really loves the language) and his proposals can't be any worse than what successive generations of Irish people have suffered at the ritual of Mandatory Irish, I know that Fianna Fail say that the "twenty year plan" is the way forward, but we have had many 'inititives' over the decades, and this 'twenty year' plan from FF is more of the same dead end BS.

I cant say that your argument makes any sense, Irish being compulsory is not the only Issue. Its not an issue of Will compulsory work or will optional work. There is far far more to it than that. Its an issue of how the language is taught, how the curriculum is structured, we haven even begun to try reforming the curriculum to restructre how the language is taught.

We have yet to try teaching people how to speak the language from an early age. The current curriculum is massivly taken up with Literature, The former LC curriculum and subsequently class room time was 70% spent on Literature even though the Exam marks for it was much lower.

We have yet to reform the Curriculum and teach Irish through a curriculum based on the Common European Framework for second language learning. The curriculum exists to do this. It can be found here. But we have yet to try using it in Schools.

You claim that we have tried everything except making it optional.
We have tried Compulsory Literature with some Spoken as an aftertaught at the end, This has failed, We have yet to try anything else, so lets reform the curriculum, restructure how it is taught, based on the CEF and try something based on a framework that is proven to work.

As for making it optional, that has been shown to fail already, You know what the definiation of madness is. You expect us to try the same thing England did and you expect different results?
Why?

As for the Twenty year plan, I dont see why you are taring it with the FF failure brush, After all FG have signed up to it too, as has everyone else.

ronkmonster · 21-02-2011 6:01pm

deise go deo wrote: »

You claim that we have tried everything except making it optional.
We have tried Compulsory Literature with some Spoken as an aftertaught at the end, This has failed, We have yet to try anything else, so lets reform the curriculum, restructure how it is taught, based on the CEF and try something based on a framework that is proven to work.

As for making it optional, that has been shown to fail already, You know what the definiation of madness is. You expect us to try the same thing England did and you expect different results?
Why?

Why shouldn't it be optional along with reform of how it's taught? If the language can't survive without being compulsory then maybe it should be let go.

And if it fails, that'll mean nothing to the majority of people in this country.

KeithAFC · 21-02-2011 6:07pm

fluorescence wrote: »

Wishing Irish simply didn't exist is a rather futile thing, don'tcha think?

Anyway, I did honours Irish all through school, came out of my Leaving 2 years ago with a c1, and haven't spoke cúpla focal since? Why? There's no need. No one I know speaks Irish, and nothing I need to read or research on is only available as Gaeilge. I'm not a vehemont anti-Irish person, more so apathetic - I simply don't care about it. It bears no significance or relevance to me. It could be totally wiped out and I wouldn't feel the effects of it.

As for everyone spouting too oft' repeated rubbish about how learning 1 language early in life makes it easier to learn others... Yes, but why not teach everyone Mandarin from the age of 4? Or Portuguese? Or Swahali? Why Irish? What merit does it have that everyone in the country must learn it, barring learning difficulties of some sort, and must be required to pass an exam in it to enter university? Sure, it'd be nice if it was taught well in schools, with a good curriculum and interested pupils who learned it with ease, but as far as I can discern there is no real need for it to be.

It can be revived. It could be spoken in every home in the country within a generation if we really wanted. What purpose would it serve?

Good point. So what is the point of learning it? Lets face it. People just want it to stay because it is a good thing in a nationalistic point of view. A good political thing more than anything. No need for it. The vast majority of people speak English and don't need it. Scrap it is what i say.

Would you actually prefer if the Irish language didnt exist?

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