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Pope's Pastoral Letter

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    #302
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    also on the part of priests and religious, to adopt ways of thinking and assessing secular
    realities without sufficient reference to the Gospel. The programme of
    renewal proposed by the Second Vatican Council was sometimes
    misinterpreted and indeed, in the light of the profound social changes that
    were taking place, it was far from easy to know how best to implement it. In
    particular, there was a well-intentioned but misguided tendency to avoid
    penal approaches to canonically irregular situations. It is in this overall
    context that we must try to understand the disturbing problem of child
    sexual abuse,


    This is from paragraph 4, so is he trying to blame secularisation and the church going liberal?
    Also what's the likelyhood of abuse happening pre the period being focused on now?


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    #303
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Sections of part 4 of the letter have really disgusted a lot of people - and not just the militant atheists that are rumoured to be out there somewhere!

    "...All too often, the sacramental and devotional practices that sustain faith and enable it to grow, such as frequent confession, daily prayer and annual retreats, were neglected. "
    and
    "...during this period, also on the part of priests and religious, to adopt ways of thinking and assessing secular realities without sufficient reference to the Gospel."

    Say what?

    So its all our fault that perverts did what they did, the cover-ups were all our fault for not going to mass enough, not falling on our knees in prayer, not reading the bible, etc , etc...

    What a load of "pass the buck" disgusting bullschite!


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    #304
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Bock picks out the main problems in the letter quite well.


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    #305
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Sparks wrote: »
    Bock picks out the main problems in the letter quite well.
    Very well put together assessment of this latest piece of useless parchment from Rome.


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    #306
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Sparks wrote: »
    Set by whom? We have the papal letter which is the authoritative source of information on what the roman catholic church policy is, pretty much by definition - so who's setting a statement that contradicts this (and contradicts earlier writings by the Pope)? I think perhaps you are being overly generous in your analysis here. The laity certainly have civil law in their minds when talking of justice (if not in quite so refined a point that they're weighing canon law against civil law while considering the long-term raping of children and the equally long-term and systemic sheltering of the offenders); but the laity are not those issuing these statements; and these statements are very hard to take on face value after recent revelations about the church's stance on mental reservation.


    The phrase was that they wouldn't breach the confidentiality of the church interviews. Which means that it would be logically and ethically impossible to divulge to a state official or garda officer what you divulged within the church interview without breaking an oath; at which point the priest being accused in court would merely ask if you were breaking the oath you took in the church or the oath you took in the courtroom and your testimony would be thrown into serious doubt.

    This is all assuming, of course, that those who took that oath had no faith in an afterlife and having to go through the Church to reach it. Since that belief is a core one in the roman catholic church, and since at the time of these crimes the church occupied a more central role in Irish life, it's not a simple matter to dismiss the concerns of those swearing the oath regarding the penalties for breaking that oath. After all, if they didn't believe the oaths had any weight, they wouldn't have had any real faith in the church itself (and I distinguish there between faith in the church and faith in the religion itself) -- and they would in all likelihood have sought more direct steps to have the priests responsible punished and the interview would never have taken place.

    No one is contradicting this, it is what the bishops and the Pope have said, it is what they mean by justice. We were told to go to the Ossory website to read the full statement, personally I had already read it on the Vatican website.
    Every diocese is like its own independent state. It was on the local media here that our former bishop who had to retire due to health issues had dealt with an abuse case in the proper manner, he went to the guards and the person in question got a number of years in jail, this was back in the 1990's.
    I said set statement but the priest always has what he intends to read out in front of him so it is set in that manner but I have heard the bishops say it and they have the ultimate control.
    It was just reinforced that the civil law has to be involved.

    They wouldn't breach the investigation process of the church.


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    #307
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Biggins wrote: »
    Very well put together assessment of this latest piece of useless parchment from Rome.

    Tell that to Christine Buckley, she was very appreciative of the pastoral letter.

    1 in 4 had their statement ready to roll before they even read it.

    It is useless parchment for people who are too bitter and as I heard on English radio - for some people nothing the Pope would do would be good enough, the Pope could kill himself on the steps of St Peter's over what happened and some would say....'the Pope didn't go far enough'.


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    #308
    mloc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    Min wrote: »
    'the Pope didn't go far enough'.

    He's already gone TOO far. He should be in jail, tbh.


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    #309
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Min wrote: »
    Tell that to Christine Buckley, she was very appreciative of the pastoral letter.

    1 in 4 had their statement ready to roll before they even read it.

    It is useless parchment for people who are too bitter and as I heard on English radio - for some people nothing the Pope would do would be good enough, the Pope could kill himself on the steps of St Peter's over what happened and some would say....'the Pope didn't go far enough'.

    I'm no longer discussing the issue with you till you withdraw the disgusting remark you make against me, what you stated I wanted in regards to children!


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    #310
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Min wrote: »
    No one is contradicting this, it is what the bishops and the Pope have said, it is what they mean by justice. We were told to go to the Ossory website to read the full statement, personally I had already read it on the Vatican website.
    Might I refer you once again to the above links on mental reservation and how it applies to issued statements by the church?
    Every diocese is like its own independent state.
    That's an assertion based on the primacy of canon law, a primacy that is not fully accepted outside of the church hierarchy and which has not been since Martin Luther used a church door as a corkboard nearly five hundred years ago.
    It was on the local media here that our former bishop who had to retire due to health issues had dealt with an abuse case in the proper manner, he went to the guards and the person in question got a number of years in jail, this was back in the 1990's.
    And it is in the news today that a second Bishop (the Bishop of Clogher) also hid child abuse from the Gardai.
    Anecdotal evidence of a lack of wrongdoing is not useful when looking at a systemic problem.
    I said set statement but the priest always has what he intends to read out in front of him so it is set in that manner but I have heard the bishops say it and they have the ultimate control.
    Not under Canon law. The pope has the ultimate control under canon law.
    It was just reinforced that the civil law has to be involved.
    Respectfully, it was not. Even when reading the statement at face value, which I don't think is valid given the above statements on mental reservation.


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    #311
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Min wrote: »
    Tell that to Christine Buckley, she was very appreciative of the pastoral letter.
    That's one. And I'm honestly glad that at least someone got some comfort from it.

    However, you'll find if you look, that she was not in the majority. Not even close.
    It is useless parchment for people who are too bitter
    It's very unfair to characterise those who feel outraged by the raping of children and the sheltering of the rapists from the law as being "bitter" as though it were a personal failing; and given the church's statements on mental reservation, considering the worth of church statements to be less than their face value is not unfair or irrational.


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    #312
    drunken_munky52
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭drunken_munky52


    Murphy and Ryan also mentioned systematic failures from the Gardai and other civil authorities.... where is their letter of apology?

    Not to mention, the community as a whole back in those days failed those children.... it was an ultimate taboo and the culture of fear the church instilled in people with fire and brimstone for challenging them was the cause... then we got rich and decided we didn't need the church anymore, so now it all comes flowing out.

    If we keep this up, all the churches in the country will be blocked up within 10 years and the only spirituality left will be our big egos and materialistic drugs. Nice


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    #313
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Biggins wrote: »
    I DO NOT want children named and I am absolutely disgusted you suggested that I do!
    I want that remark withdrawn NOW!!! :mad:

    Please stop with this crap "the secrecy involved here did not mean the parents and children could not go to the police"
    THAT WAS THE POINT OF THEM BEING SWORN TO SECRECY BY THE CLERGY!
    Still there has been no apology for that either!

    "Why did some of them not go to the police?"
    Many have stated that answer already in many reports.
    I have stated one reason alone above!

    What happens in the states is a totally different ball game to what happened in Ireland,
    The methods used to silence the people, the level of powerful influence and reach of authority they had!
    That USA rubbish don't wash!

    I am sorry but you are wrong about why they were sworn to secrecy, it was not about stopping anyone going to the civil authorities. I heard the oath they had to take on the Pat Kenny show, it didn't say they couldn't go to the police, it said they had to keep the Church's process of investigation secret in order to avoid collusion of evidence.

    I don't hear the complaints about where the guards didn't believe them as it was reported in at least the Ferns reports.

    I don't say the US study has to wash, it is accepted in Ireland that a lot of sexual abuse crime goes unreported by the victims.
    Here is the rubbish you dismiss, in this case - Ireland.
    RTE in 2001 - http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/0514/rape.html
    More than two thirds of rape and sexual assaults still go unreported, according to figures released by the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre.

    The Dublin rape crisis centre stats for 2008:
    REPORTING TO GARDAÍ
    Of the 329 cases where the reporting status was known, 92 cases were reported to the Gardaí, a reporting rate of 27.96%. Of these 92 cases, 4 cases (1.22%) were tried, resulting in 4 convictions or guilty plea.
    http://www.drcc.ie/report/DRCC08.pdf

    The reporting to gardai is at a low level. Who silenced the 72.04%?


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    #314
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    drunken_munky52 wrote: »
    If we keep this up, all the churches in the country will be blocked up within 10 years and the only spirituality left will be our big egos and materialistic drugs. Nice
    If you truly believe that the loss of the roman catholic church will lead definitively to the loss of spirituality, then you are being immensely disrespectful towards not just atheists but towards every single religious group on the planet, including other christian groups. Frankly, if that is representative of your true beliefs, I would submit that the elimination of the church would not have any meaningful impact on your personal spirituality because it is deeply flawed already.


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    #315
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Min wrote: »
    Who silenced the 72.04%?
    According to experts in this area, the rapists are the usual source of the intimidation that keeps the victims silent (as the vast majority of those raped are raped by those they know and used to trust, rather than by random strangers). The second main reason for silence is usually implied or explicit peer pressure - the mother who doesn't believe her husband raped her daughter, the peers who attach a social stigma to those who have been raped, and so forth. After that comes the fear that after defying both of the first reasons for silence, that the courts will fail them and either fail to convict the guilty; or will not impose a sufficient sentence to the offender.

    In the cases where the rapist was a priest, all of these would seem to be magnified by the actions of the church hierarchy.


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    #316
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Sparks wrote: »
    ...In the cases where the rapist was a priest, all of these would seem to be magnified by the actions of the church hierarchy.
    Thank you.
    Sadly Min don't get that nor wants to I suspect.


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    #317
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Sparks wrote: »
    According to experts in this area, the rapists are the usual source of the intimidation that keeps the victims silent (as the vast majority of those raped are raped by those they know and used to trust, rather than by random strangers). The second main reason for silence is usually implied or explicit peer pressure - the mother who doesn't believe her husband raped her daughter, the peers who attach a social stigma to those who have been raped, and so forth. After that comes the fear that after defying both of the first reasons for silence, that the courts will fail them and either fail to convict the guilty; or will not impose a sufficient sentence to the offender.

    In the cases where the rapist was a priest, all of these would seem to be magnified by the actions of the church hierarchy.

    The reasons I have read on sites that deal with rape is the sense of shame and embarrassment due to the abuse of their dignity. They don't want to have to go public with that and it is that which helps the abuser.


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    #318
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    That would be a part of the second reason I mentioned.


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    #319
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Biggins wrote: »
    Thank you.
    Sadly Min don't get that nor wants to I suspect.

    I get you read too much into things.


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    #320
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,583 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    1in4 wrote: »
    My own survivors group could do with taking a leaf out of SOCA's measured, reasonable, reflected upon and balanced response. Credit where credit is due.

    Banned for trolling, ignoring mod warning and pretending to represent the 1 in 4 group.


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    #321
    drunken_munky52
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭drunken_munky52


    Sparks wrote: »
    If you truly believe that the loss of the roman catholic church will lead definitively to the loss of spirituality, then you are being immensely disrespectful towards not just atheists but towards every single religious group on the planet, including other christian groups. Frankly, if that is representative of your true beliefs, I would submit that the elimination of the church would not have any meaningful impact on your personal spirituality because it is deeply flawed already.

    I didn't say that, nor do I hold Christian ideals, even tough I was baptized and was an alter boy. But Im from a generation of people who have turned away from the church. Just because Im catholic, doesn't mean I am devout. Nonr of my peers go to mass anymore.

    Look closely, you will see that the only people going to mass nowadays are old people. Soon they will be all gone, and the seats of the churches will be empty for good. With that, then end of the roman catholic church in Ireland.

    Then what? We will all be back kissing the earth while the Africans sing Alleluia in the baptist churches.

    But then again... child raping catholic church good riddance?


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    #322
    mloc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    drunken_munky52 wrote: »
    Then what? We will all be back kissing the earth while the Africans sing Alleluia in the baptist churches.

    But then again... child raping catholic church good riddance?

    I fail to see any logic in your post. So what if the Catholic Church disappears from Ireland, do you really think it will affect us negatively?


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    #323
    underclass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭underclass


    RonMexico wrote: »
    What the Dickens! Why did you just quote yourself?

    The anti-Church spin merchants are hard at work. Even they slip up sometimes...


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    #324
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,680 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    mloc wrote: »
    He's already gone TOO far. He should be in jail, tbh.
    Unfortunately, thats thinking way too far forward. Owing much to the political stature of the Holy See, within the United Nations. And even if the Holy See was expelled (which sadly, I just don't see happening) does it become a subsidiary of Italy? Who has jurisdiction? Which authoritative body goes in and apprehends the Clergy? Where are they to be incarcerated. That is an entire 10 page thread right there.

    As to the expulsion of the church in Ireland I don't think you will see that either though theres a good chance of it being fully secularized and marginalized by Irish society. What you will see though is another Church, likely with a locally run Clergy, established in its place. As to what denomination of Christianity that may take the form of - thats out of my element.


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    #325
    profitius
    Registered Users Posts: 3,976 ✭✭✭profitius


    I see this is a subject that gets people emotional. Looks like our media friends have managed to do it again.

    Evil church
    Evil church
    Evil church
    Evil church
    Evil church
    Evil church
    Evil church

    If you repeat something many times people will start to believe it no matter how outragious it is.

    Of all the priests that has served in my locality theres never been a paedophile. Shocking isn't it! They served the people of the parish and done many positive things.. but who cares about that.

    Even clergy who didn't do anything are getting a hammering in the media these days because they didn't react in a better way.

    Lets look at things from a logical point of view. Everybody have their own belief system and their beliefs are hard to change. For example some people believe in ghosts others think they're crazy for that.

    Now back in the day when these allegation were first coming out against what was presumed well respected members of the clergy for most of the others it must have been something that could not possibly have happened. Things like paedophilia were never mentioned in the media etc so it wasn't in the consciousness of most priests. In fact, most ordinary people wouldn't have believed it either.

    And I know some people will say they were in a position of power and should have done something. They were still humans with faults.

    Speaking of beliefs, it seems alot of trendy young modern people believe the church is responsible for holding the country back for many years. How easy it is to influence poeple with false negative beliefs.

    As for me in case you're wondering I'm not a practising catholic but I am concerned about the total negative propaganda against the church by the media. The reporting is so unbalanced even communists would be proud.


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    #326
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,680 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Communists? where did that come from?

    If confident that your Parish is innocent in the allegations being thrown about the media, Profitius: Do you support a State-lead investigation into the church? Or like is being implied in the debate, should it be handled by Canon Law/within the Clergy?


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    #327
    profitius
    Registered Users Posts: 3,976 ✭✭✭profitius


    Overheal wrote: »
    Communists? where did that come from?

    If confident that your Parish is innocent in the allegations being thrown about the media, Profitius: Do you support a State-lead investigation into the church? Or like is being implied in the debate, should it be handled by Canon Law/within the Clergy?

    What matters is the vast majority of the clergy is innocent.

    Personally I'm tired of hearing about reports and the church. I think they've (the church) probably realise now what needs to be done. The church has complex laws and rules its like running a country rather then a religion. Religion should be simple but thats another topic.

    As for the victims. Theres no doubt whatsoever that the best think they can do is let it go and realise the people who wronged them were not mentally right in the head. Stop giving energy to something that happened in the past. For their own sanity.


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    #328
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,680 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    profitius wrote: »
    What matters is the vast majority of the clergy is innocent.
    I can't object to that Hypothesis. But I think [Ireland] would be much justified in receiving a State investigation into the church to verify this. Obviously, there would be innocent Clergymen. But Im more concerned about the ones whom can be proven Guilty, and have not been.
    Personally I'm tired of hearing about reports and the church. I think they've (the church) probably realise now what needs to be done. The church has complex laws and rules its like running a country rather then a religion. Religion should be simple but thats another topic.
    Thats the thing. The Pastoral letter seems to indicate that they believe the Canon Law of the Catholic Church is superior to the Secular Law of the Irish State and that henceforth they will deal with this situation within the Holy See itself. From a legal standpoint though I'm not sure how much if any Vatican property in the state of Ireland is actually Sovereign Territory [like an embassy] and they are still subject to State Law.

    Furthermore, Sparks' linked article here: http://bocktherobber.com/2010/03/popes-pastoral-letter-to-irish-catholics does highlight the fact that as far as 'What needs to be done' the official position of the Vatican is to solve this problem with more Prayer.
    As for the victims. Theres no doubt whatsoever that the best think they can do is let it go and realise the people who wronged them were not mentally right in the head. Stop giving energy to something that happened in the past. For their own sanity.
    Thats an easy thing to say on paper, but Sexual Abuse is like no other thing. It changes lives, and as for being mentally ill: the victims are forever altered by their experiences.

    I do fear you've opened up a wholesale can of worms by suggesting the victims of Sex Abuse to "just get over it"


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    #329
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    profitius wrote: »
    The church has complex laws and rules its like running a country rather then a religion.

    The church's laws or desires do not have any independent legal standing.

    They deliberately covered up severe and sickening wrongdoing and no longer have any moral authority.

    And anyone who covered up the wrongdoing should be as culpable as any "layperson" who did likewise.


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    #330
    underclass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭underclass


    Cardinal Brady has important work to continue. He should listen to the concerns raised by the Pope, but he should not be distracted by the populist shrills of secularists with ulterior motives. As someone pointed out above, irrational chants of "Evil Church, Evil Church" are becoming tiresome at this stage.


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    #331
    Bugbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Bugbear


    I am catholic.

    I say it so that what follows is not taken out of context: I went to mass yesterday, I listened to the priest reading the letter. I read the letter again today. I read the 22 pages of discussion.

    I'm sorry, it's just not enough. And I say it as a catholic.

    The people, the catholics and the good priests, they all needed more clear signals. They needed:
    - I am firing away bishop 1, 2, and 3. Legal measures will be taken for the cover-up.
    - I am sending to civil authorities all the info I have for their court hearings.
    - I will insert periodical psychological audits from external independent agencies for priests in the seminar and in their office.
    - I will double all the offers that the believer will put in the church's boxes in 2010, and constitute a fund to repay the victims.

    These would have been concrete signals: maybe somebody would have wanted more, maybe somebody would have prefered a boxing match with a bad priest, but at least they would have been concrete signals.

    None of the above, and you leave to face the situation who? The priest.

    And obviously people slay the messenger because they are (for understandable reasons) enraged. Even if the messenger is a good person (priest does not equal paedophile!).

    Why do people do that? Because they are bitter? Because they are crusty communists? Because they have hearts of stone?

    No: simply because they react to the lack of concrete actions.

    I believe in the power of the Holy Ghost and of the prayer to heal and change the heart, but in Ireland, like in a series of other countries, horrible actions were committed: it was necessary to take concrete counteractions of the same intensity, and they were not taken, and this can only make things more difficult for prayer to sink and do its action (I appreciate that what I am saying here is what I believe and I have no intentions of convincing anyone of this last point).

    And priests were left to deliver the "I'm sorry I'm sorry" letter.

    As a catholic I am very disappointed. If I was a victim or family of a victim I would be even more disappointed.


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