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Pope's Pastoral Letter
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Whether or not canon law can or cannot use custodial sentences as punishment is almost irrelevant compared to magnitude of the questions of who decides the rules for the court/tribunal; what an accused's rights are; what the victim's rights are and which were violated in the course of the criminal act; what standards of proof are required; who can stand as advocate for the accused and for the plaintiff; how appeals are decided; and so forth.
Basicly, the question of canon law versus state law is so fundamental that it doesn't come down to who tries a rapist; it comes down even further, to whether it's rape at all.0 -
benedict should step down, along with all the heads, these were the ones who were making all the decisions, comitting criminal offences covering up for criminals, accessory to the facts0
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My name is Father Federico Lombardi. I am the Director of the Vatican Press Office. I’m here to present a much-awaited document written by the Pope himself.
It’s his letter to the Catholics of Ireland and regards the sexual abuse committed by some members of the Church in that country.
I think it’s an honest and courageous letter.
It communicates the Pope’s sorrow and his personal commitment to do everything he can to heal, repair, and renew.
He addresses the victims, first and foremost.
He says how deeply he shares their pain and suffering.
He understands how victims feel betrayed by trusted representatives of the Church.
The Pope has met with abuse victims before – in the United States, Australia and Rome – and says he wants to meet others as well.
He is uncompromising towards those who committed the abuse.
In the letter he tells them they are accountable to God for their sins, and to the courts for their crimes.
The Pope insists that abusers face the full force of justice.
He tells them to do penance and to have faith in Divine Mercy.
But the Pope doesn’t stop here.
He speaks to priests and parents, to young people and to all Catholics.
He encourages us and invites us to a new awareness and responsibility on this matter.
The Pope also addresses the Bishops. He criticises the mistakes made in protecting and guiding the people entrusted to them.
He tells the Bishops to apply the Church’s norms strictly in all cases of abuse.
He also insists they collaborate with civil authorities to ensure that justice is done and that young people are protected.
The Pope then suggests some concrete spiritual and pastoral initiatives.
He calls for penance and spiritual renewal.
When the Pope was in the United States he spoke out strongly on the issue of abuse.
His words helped the Church there to emerge from a similar crisis and to go forward again with hope and trust.
It’s important that this letter to the faithful of Ireland does the same thing.
I hope it becomes the starting point of a new way forward.0 -
We are taking about the pope and his letter but lets steer off that subject for non-answering of the opinion put forth and post...
Are you SERIOUSLY telling everyone here you believe that!
* sigh *
Your clearly wearing blinkers or just plain blind to many reports of the clergy cover-ups - even the latest word of people been sworn to secrecy!
But that was only for the church process, it did not stop the parents and children going to the police. This is where the confusion lies.Liam Byrne wrote: »The courts are not a private organisation that set out to prevent the law being applied to evil scum.
Yeah its not like an attorney general in Ireland would leave a file unanswered for months on end regarding a notorious paedophile priest....and then have the same attorney general up for promotion for a senior judicial position.0 -
You know, I know and a lot of people know that when a young child standing in a priests cold office is being told to swear to secrecy, that that child is probably scared out of their darn wits. Especially after what had been done to them, then they had to go and re-tell it all to another. A man that their own parents goes to every Sunday and looks up to in godlike respect!But that was only for the church process, it did not stop the parents and children going to the police. This is where the confusion lies.
Then there is the threat of excommunication to child and adult. We all know the serious influence the church had (and in places and times, still has!) in our country.
What they said to the public might as well been considered state law as far as the public was concerned under their influence and awe of their power.
There was no confusion in what the priests did in getting young impressionable kids to swear to secrecy, "don't tell any one or you will burn in hells fires of damnation" - "You shall be excommunicated/removed from the church" or whatever other strong-arm methods they used to silence the experiences of the victims from getting out - and they used many, many (all one has to do is read the already published reports).
To this day the church as still that much influence alone that so far they have managed to stall completely a fuller nationwide investigation of all the other parishes around the country, where probable mountains of further disgusting acts of betrayal and lies remains buried under the rule of canon law and forced statements sworn to secrecy.0 -
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My name is Father Federico Lombardi. I am the Director of the Vatican Press Office. I’m here to present a much-awaited document written by the Pope himself.
It’s his letter to the Catholics of Ireland and regards the sexual abuse committed by some members of the Church in that country.
I think it’s an honest and courageous letter.
It communicates the Pope’s sorrow and his personal commitment to do everything he can to heal, repair, and renew.
He addresses the victims, first and foremost.
He says how deeply he shares their pain and suffering.
He understands how victims feel betrayed by trusted representatives of the Church.
The Pope has met with abuse victims before – in the United States, Australia and Rome – and says he wants to meet others as well.
He is uncompromising towards those who committed the abuse.
In the letter he tells them they are accountable to God for their sins, and to the courts for their crimes.
The Pope insists that abusers face the full force of justice.
He tells them to do penance and to have faith in Divine Mercy.
But the Pope doesn’t stop here.
He speaks to priests and parents, to young people and to all Catholics.
He encourages us and invites us to a new awareness and responsibility on this matter.
The Pope also addresses the Bishops. He criticises the mistakes made in protecting and guiding the people entrusted to them.
He tells the Bishops to apply the Church’s norms strictly in all cases of abuse.
He also insists they collaborate with civil authorities to ensure that justice is done and that young people are protected.
The Pope then suggests some concrete spiritual and pastoral initiatives.
He calls for penance and spiritual renewal.
When the Pope was in the United States he spoke out strongly on the issue of abuse.
His words helped the Church there to emerge from a similar crisis and to go forward again with hope and trust.
It’s important that this letter to the faithful of Ireland does the same thing.
I hope it becomes the starting point of a new way forward.
Some questions for you, 1in4 -
Are you claiming to be Father Federico Lombardi, or have you just copied a statement onto this thread with no link or source for the statement?
Regarding post #192 on page 13 of this thread, why do you want people to look at a spelling mistake on a marriage course website? How is this relevant to the discussion here?
You joined Boards.ie the day before the pastoral letter was publicised. Why is your username 1in4? Are you claiming to represent the views of the One in Four organisation in Ireland?0 -
I spent yesterday playing street fighter, you know, important stuff, so the pope's had to wait. Read it all now.
What I must admit jumped out at me was this:9. To the children and young people of Ireland...
14. I now wish to propose to you some concrete initiatives to address the
situation.
At the conclusion of my meeting with the Irish bishops, I asked that
Lent this year be set aside as a time to pray for an outpouring of God’s
mercy and the Holy Spirit’s gifts of holiness and strength upon the Church
in your country. I now invite all of you to devote your Friday penances, for a
period of one year, between now and Easter 2011, to this intention. I ask
you to offer up your fasting, your prayer, your reading of Scripture and your
works of mercy in order to obtain the grace of healing and renewal for the
Church in Ireland. I encourage you to discover anew the sacrament of
Reconciliation and to avail yourselves more frequently of the transforming
power of its grace.
Particular attention should also be given to Eucharistic adoration, and
in every diocese there should be churches or chapels specifically devoted
to this purpose. I ask parishes, seminaries, religious houses and
monasteries to organize periods of Eucharistic adoration, so that all have
an opportunity to take part. Through intense prayer before the real
presence of the Lord, you can make reparation for the sins of abuse that
have done so much harm, at the same time imploring the grace of renewed
strength and a deeper sense of mission on the part of all bishops, priests,
religious and lay faithful.
I am confident that this programme will lead to a rebirth of the Church
in Ireland in the fullness of God’s own truth, for it is the truth that sets us
free (cf. Jn 8:32).
Furthermore, having consulted and prayed about the matter, I intend
to hold an Apostolic Visitation of certain dioceses in Ireland, as well as
seminaries and religious congregations. Arrangements for the Visitation,
which is intended to assist the local Church on her path of renewal, will be
made in cooperation with the competent offices of the Roman Curia and the
Irish Episcopal Conference. The details will be announced in due course.
I also propose that a nationwide Mission be held for all bishops,
priests and religious. It is my hope that, by drawing on the expertise of
experienced preachers and retreat-givers from Ireland and from elsewhere,
and by exploring anew the conciliar documents, the liturgical rites of
ordination and profession, and recent pontifical teaching, you will come to a
more profound appreciation of your respective vocations, so as to
rediscover the roots of your faith in Jesus Christ and to drink deeply from
the springs of living water that he offers you through his Church.
In this Year for Priests, I commend to you most particularly the figure
of Saint John Mary Vianney, who had such a rich understanding of the
mystery of the priesthood. “The priest”, he wrote, “holds the key to the
treasures of heaven: it is he who opens the door: he is the steward of the
good Lord; the administrator of his goods.” The Curé d’Ars understood well
how greatly blessed a community is when served by a good and holy priest:
“A good shepherd, a pastor after God’s heart, is the greatest treasure which
the good Lord can grant to a parish, and one of the most precious gifts of
divine mercy.” Through the intercession of Saint John Mary Vianney, may
the priesthood in Ireland be revitalized, and may the whole Church in
Ireland grow in appreciation for the great gift of the priestly ministry.
I take this opportunity to thank in anticipation all those who will be
involved in the work of organizing the Apostolic Visitation and the Mission,
as well as the many men and women throughout Ireland already working for
the safety of children in church environments. Since the time when the
gravity and extent of the problem of child sexual abuse in Catholic
institutions first began to be fully grasped, the Church has done an
immense amount of work in many parts of the world in order to address and
remedy it. While no effort should be spared in improving and updating
existing procedures, I am encouraged by the fact that the current
safeguarding practices adopted by local Churches are being seen, in some
parts of the world, as a model for other institutions to follow.
I wish to conclude this Letter with a special Prayer for the Church in
Ireland, which I send to you with the care of a father for his children and
with the affection of a fellow Christian, scandalized and hurt by what has
occurred in our beloved Church. As you make use of this prayer in your
families, parishes and communities, may the Blessed Virgin Mary protect
and guide each of you to a closer union with her Son, crucified and risen.
With great affection and unswerving confidence in God’s promises, I
cordially impart to all of you my Apostolic Blessing as a pledge of strength
and peace in the Lord.
From the Vatican, 19 March 2010, on the Solemnity of Saint Joseph
BENEDICTUS PP. XVI
PRAYER FOR THE CHURCH IN IRELAND
You can stay the hell away (pun intended) from any young people in my family until you show me you will actively punish those who used the special status your organisation to ruin the lives of innocents via the local criminal justice system with alacrity and transparancy. I would oppose their interest in your church with an urgency borne of necessity (how can we trust the RCC with the youth when it seems they offer no concrete change at all?) and my own sense of morality, which might not be holy but appears thousands of years in advance of the churches.
You offer nothing but empty platitudes to a possible sky god who your own priests have probably devastated the belief of in those who are the most important here- the victims.
Empty words from someone who appears to be an empty man.0 -
I have just returned from Mass , I haven't attended mass in a while as I am a lapsed Catholic . Today I was drawn to the church to listen to the pastoral letter and how it was seen my the congregation and more so the local priest ( a good man as best I can tell ).
Anyway this is what I came away with.
Some Friar preaching about Jesus forgiving a woman that was about to be stoned for adultery and it being pointed out a couple of times that the Phareses (sic) only condemned the woman and forgetting about the man , as it takes two to commit adultery. Jesus showing mercy being the big point being expressed repeatly.
I really hope the intention was not to equate this to child molestation in the church , it couldn't could it ?.
There was then a brief mention of the pastoral letter and how it will be discussed later. This then led to the announcement that the normal mass for Monday evening is cancelled and there will be a special mass to pray for reconsiliation in the church instead.
I shall not be attending. From here on I shall practise my faith in private and within the range of morals that I believe make a decent human being.0 -
You know, threads like this always make my heart sink. Not even because of the atheists attacking the church, that's their opinion and they're entitled to it.
No, what gets me down is that those that claim to be 'defending' the Catholic church do more to damage it that any opponent.
Oremus, our religion teaches that we 'love our neighbour' that is, to respect their views; not patronise or just blatantly insult them.
What was done in the past was terrible, and of course every priest/bishop/canon/cardinal who had any part in it should be dealt with by the state; but it should be reiterated that these people aren't Catholc - they're hiding behind the facade of a religious man to hide their evil acts. The majority of the clergy are devoutly religious men; and just as apalled at these acts as anyone else. All the priests I know are great blokes, easy to get along with and genuinely devoted to God.
Don't let the actions of a minority ruin a church whose members wholly oppose those actions.0 -
You know, I know and a lot of people know that when a young child standing in a priests cold office is being told to swear to secrecy, that that child is probably scared out of their darn wits. Especially after what had been done to them, then they had to go and re-tell it all to another. A man that their own parents goes to every Sunday and looks up to in godlike respect!
Then there is the threat of excommunication to child and adult. We all know the serious influence the church had (and in places and times, still has!) in our country.
What they said to the public might as well been considered state law as far as the public was concerned under their influence and awe of their power.
There was no confusion in what the priests did in getting young impressionable kids to swear to secrecy, "don't tell any one or you will burn in hells fires of damnation" - "You shall be excommunicated/removed from the church" or whatever other strong-arm methods they used to silence the experiences of the victims from getting out - and they used many, many (all one has to do is read the already published reports).
To this day the church as still that much influence alone that so far they have managed to stall completely a fuller nationwide investigation of all the other parishes around the country, where probable mountains of further disgusting acts of betrayal and lies remains buried under the rule of canon law and forced statements sworn to secrecy.
Read the Pastoral letter, it tells the Catholic leaders here and those who abused to everything out into the open.
As stated at Mass today, it should be done before civil and canon law.
Anyway it seems you want children named in public rather than keeping it secret.
People are often sworn to secrecy, the secrecy involved here did not mean the parents and children could not go to the police and that is the most important point.
There was one victim who said she didn't want the courts involved when she was abused but instead expected the church to deal with it.
If some wanted the church to deal with it internally then who are any of us to question the process the church used if this is what the parents or victims wanted?
Why did some of them not go to the police?
It is said in society (US study) only about 60% report of sexual abuse is reported to the authorities. So it quite believeable some only wanted the church to deal with it than be involved with the law.0 -
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There was one victim who said she didn't want the courts involved when she was abused but instead expected the church to deal with it.
If some wanted the church to deal with it internally then who are any of us to question the process the church used if this is what the parents or victims wanted?
.
These are criminal matters and it is the responsibility of the State to investigate and prosecute. If a crime has been committed it is not correct for a citizen to say, 'no I don't want this dealt with by the state.'
This is where we run into difficulties in this country. Canon law is irrelevant in cases where there has been a breach of Common law or Statute. It is not for the individual citizen to decide if the law applies in a given situtation.
SD0 -
I have just returned from Mass , I haven't attended mass in a while as I am a lapsed Catholic . Today I was drawn to the church to listen to the pastoral letter and how it was seen my the congregation and more so the local priest ( a good man as best I can tell ).
Anyway this is what I came away with.
Some Friar preaching about Jesus forgiving a woman that was about to be stoned for adultery and it being pointed out a couple of times that the Phareses (sic) only condemned the woman and forgetting about the man , as it takes two to commit adultery. Jesus showing mercy being the big point being expressed repeatly.
I really hope the intention was not to equate this to child molestation in the church , it couldn't could it ?.
There was then a brief mention of the pastoral letter and how it will be discussed later. This then led to the announcement that the normal mass for Monday evening is cancelled and there will be a special mass to pray for reconsiliation in the church instead.
I shall not be attending. From here on I shall practise my faith in private and within the range of morals that I believe make a decent human being.
The readings and gospel are set out a very long in advance, the gospel about 'he will without sin cast the first stone' has nothing to do with the issuing of the pastoral letter.
The gospel was even mentioned in the sermon which was all about what was in the pastoral letter.
The main points of the pastoral letter were read out, a brief copy of it was available and we were told that full copies would be available over the coming week and would be available over the coming weekends, it could be accessed via the internet and it was all discussed enough at mass.0 -
'scuse me, just a tic-You know, threads like this always make my heart sink. Not even because of the atheists attacking the church, that's their opinion and they're entitled to it.
1) Atheists aren't attacking the church. Everyone, including catholics, are attacking the church, because the church raped their children and then sheltered the priests who did the raping so that they couldn't be punished by the state in accordance with the law;
and 2) Atheists who disagree with the religion of the church are not expressing their opinion, they are professing their faith. Show a little respect, if you would.
To be fair, that minority appear to be those who run the church, which complicates matters.Don't let the actions of a minority ruin a church whose members wholly oppose those actions.0 -
My name is Father Federico Lombardi. I am the Director of the Vatican Press Office. I’m here to present a much-awaited document written by the Pope himself.
It’s his letter to the Catholics of Ireland and regards the sexual abuse committed by some members of the Church in that country.
I think it’s an honest and courageous letter.
It communicates the Pope’s sorrow and his personal commitment to do everything he can to heal, repair, and renew.
He addresses the victims, first and foremost.
He says how deeply he shares their pain and suffering.
He understands how victims feel betrayed by trusted representatives of the Church.
The Pope has met with abuse victims before – in the United States, Australia and Rome – and says he wants to meet others as well.
He is uncompromising towards those who committed the abuse.
In the letter he tells them they are accountable to God for their sins, and to the courts for their crimes.
The Pope insists that abusers face the full force of justice.
He tells them to do penance and to have faith in Divine Mercy.
But the Pope doesn’t stop here.
He speaks to priests and parents, to young people and to all Catholics.
He encourages us and invites us to a new awareness and responsibility on this matter.
The Pope also addresses the Bishops. He criticises the mistakes made in protecting and guiding the people entrusted to them.
He tells the Bishops to apply the Church’s norms strictly in all cases of abuse.
He also insists they collaborate with civil authorities to ensure that justice is done and that young people are protected.
The Pope then suggests some concrete spiritual and pastoral initiatives.
He calls for penance and spiritual renewal.
When the Pope was in the United States he spoke out strongly on the issue of abuse.
His words helped the Church there to emerge from a similar crisis and to go forward again with hope and trust.
It’s important that this letter to the faithful of Ireland does the same thing.
I hope it becomes the starting point of a new way forward.
Please post a source for this "article"0 -
Re-read the letter. It says no such thing. It says "appropriate tribunals" and was written by the same man who earlier wrote that those tribunals were to be governed by canon law and held under papal secret.Read the Pastoral letter, it tells the Catholic leaders here and those who abused to everything out into the open.
As stated at Mass today, it should be done before civil and canon law.
What the heck?Anyway it seems you want children named in public rather than keeping it secret.
People are often sworn to secrecy, the secrecy involved here did not mean the parents and children could not go to the police and that is the most important point.
"I swear you to secrecy on the pain of your immortal soul being damned in hellfire for all eternity.... but yeah, go tell the cops and drag his ass in front of an open court, we don't really mean it..."
:rolleyes:0 -
The readings and gospel are set out a very long in advance, the gospel about 'he will without sin cast the first stone' has nothing to do with the issuing of the pastoral letter.
The gospel was even mentioned in the sermon which was all about what was in the pastoral letter.
The main points of the pastoral letter were read out, a brief copy of it was available and we were told that full copies would be available over the coming week and would be available over the coming weekends, it could be accessed via the internet and it was all discussed enough at mass.
You were obviously in a different church to the one I was in.0 -
StudentDad wrote: »These are criminal matters and it is the responsibility of the State to investigate and prosecute. If a crime has been committed it is not correct for a citizen to say, 'no I don't want this dealt with by the state.'
This is where we run into difficulties in this country. Canon law is irrelevant in cases where there has been a breach of Common law or Statute. It is not for the individual citizen to decide if the law applies in a given situtation.
SD
I was listening to a debate on this the other evening, it is not illegal to not report a known case of child abuse it seems at present.
Anyway we have seen in past reports of sex abuse that even some gardai and health workers didn't believe the claims made by some of the victims.
The truth is a great thing and while great wrong and evil was done to innocent people, everyone is enlightened to what the right approach should be.
The current problem is people expect the state to have answers for what happened in the church and yet we have 20 dead children who were in state care over the past decade.
The whole of society needs to change how it deals with children and their safeguards. The concentration is on the church but that is just one area, the laws in this country don't do enough.
We had one man (just an ordinary citizen) given 4 years for raping children in his neighbourhood in the courts during the past week.
A few weeks ago we had this:A 73-year-old pensioner who engaged in a “persistent regime of depravity” by sexually abusing his neighbours’ two young daughters almost every day for 10 years, was jailed yesterday for seven years with the final year suspended.
We all want the abusers jailed but the sentences are a sick joke, Ireland needs tougher laws in all areas, maybe having no decent large prison doesn't help.0 -
Re-read the letter. It says no such thing. It says "appropriate tribunals" and was written by the same man who earlier wrote that those tribunals were to be governed by canon law and held under papal secret.
What the heck?
"I swear you to secrecy on the pain of your immortal soul being damned in hellfire for all eternity.... but yeah, go tell the cops and drag his ass in front of an open court, we don't really mean it..."
:rolleyes:
It was said at mass today 'civil law' and it was the priest reading from a set statement, this is what is meant by 'submit yourself to the demands of justice'.
When people demand justice they are talking of civil law, not canon law.
No human can condemn anyone to hell so it would be a pretty poor secrecy oath if that was it and from what I heard on the Pat Kenny show, it was similar to the oath taken in a court in that the person had to swear on the bible they would tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and they wouldn't divulge the church processes when it came to investigations.
None of this condemning to hell crap that some here think it was.0 -
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Abuse survivors' group welcomes Papal apology.
An organisation representing many former residents of industrial schools has thanked Pope Benedict XVI for 'his unprecedented apology' to victims of abuse by priests and religious.
The Pontiff said in his pastoral letter to Irish Catholics that he was 'truly sorry' for the abuse victims and their families suffered in the church's name.
Irish Survivors of Child Abuse welcomed the Pontiff's commitment to personally intervene in the workings of the Irish church to bring about reform and renewal.
In a statement, Irish SOCA says it 'represents a highly emotional and long overdue' Papal apology to victims.
It calls the letter a first step on the road to healing for many who had lost faith in the church.
(Taken from the NEWSROOM R.T.E.)
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Abuse survivors' group welcomes Papal apology.
An organisation representing many former residents of industrial schools has thanked Pope Benedict XVI for 'his unprecedented apology' to victims of abuse by priests and religious.
The Pontiff said in his pastoral letter to Irish Catholics that he was 'truly sorry' for the abuse victims and their families suffered in the church's name.
Irish Survivors of Child Abuse welcomed the Pontiff's commitment to personally intervene in the workings of the Irish church to bring about reform and renewal.
In a statement, Irish SOCA says it 'represents a highly emotional and long overdue' Papal apology to victims.
It calls the letter a first step on the road to healing for many who had lost faith in the church.
(Taken from the NEWSROOM R.T.E.)
My own survivors group could do with taking a leaf out of SOCA's measured, reasonable, reflected upon and balanced response. Credit where credit is due.0 -
What the Dickens! Why did you just quote yourself?0
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Set by whom? We have the papal letter which is the authoritative source of information on what the roman catholic church policy is, pretty much by definition - so who's setting a statement that contradicts this (and contradicts earlier writings by the Pope)?It was said at mass today 'civil law' and it was the priest reading from a set statement
I think perhaps you are being overly generous in your analysis here. The laity certainly have civil law in their minds when talking of justice (if not in quite so refined a point that they're weighing canon law against civil law while considering the long-term raping of children and the equally long-term and systemic sheltering of the offenders); but the laity are not those issuing these statements; and these statements are very hard to take on face value after recent revelations about the church's stance on mental reservation.When people demand justice they are talking of civil law, not canon law.
The phrase was that they wouldn't breach the confidentiality of the church interviews. Which means that it would be logically and ethically impossible to divulge to a state official or garda officer what you divulged within the church interview without breaking an oath; at which point the priest being accused in court would merely ask if you were breaking the oath you took in the church or the oath you took in the courtroom and your testimony would be thrown into serious doubt.they wouldn't divulge the church processes when it came to investigations.
This is all assuming, of course, that those who took that oath had no faith in an afterlife and having to go through the Church to reach it. Since that belief is a core one in the roman catholic church, and since at the time of these crimes the church occupied a more central role in Irish life, it's not a simple matter to dismiss the concerns of those swearing the oath regarding the penalties for breaking that oath. After all, if they didn't believe the oaths had any weight, they wouldn't have had any real faith in the church itself (and I distinguish there between faith in the church and faith in the religion itself) -- and they would in all likelihood have sought more direct steps to have the priests responsible punished and the interview would never have taken place.0 -
I was listening to a debate on this the other evening, it is not illegal to not report a known case of child abuse it seems at present ... The current problem is people expect the state to have answers for what happened in the church and yet we have 20 dead children who were in state care over the past decade.
The whole of society needs to change how it deals with children and their safeguards. The concentration is on the church but that is just one area, the laws in this country don't do enough.
The problem lies not with the Law. We have perfectly adequate laws - it is the application of said law that is the problem.
You say, 'society needs to change.' That is the key phrase there. So long as people living in Ireland tolerate corruption in public office and tolerate the actions of a church (or any other body) that ignores the law of the land (for its own self-interest) the cronyism and corruption will continue. In the end it's the citzens of Ireland who are failed by the system.
How does that phrase go? Justice not only needs to be done, but mainfestly needs to be seen to be done!
SD0 -
True, but the key inference is that Irish society has mechanisms to effect that change itself. We're discussing a referendum to guarantee the rights of the child, for example - that's all of us getting a vote on the matter. Flawed and imperfect as that system and its implementation are, they are still about two thousand years of progress ahead of the model used by the catholic church to decide on canon law.StudentDad wrote: »You say, 'society needs to change.' That is the key phrase there.0 -
True, but the key inference is that Irish society has mechanisms to effect that change itself. We're discussing a referendum to guarantee the rights of the child, for example - that's all of us getting a vote on the matter. Flawed and imperfect as that system and its implementation are, they are still about two thousand years of progress ahead of the model used by the catholic church to decide on canon law.
How nice for the Catholic Church - Canon law is irrelevant! It is not for the church to decide what legal responsibilities they like or whether or not they will inform the state of a possible breach of criminal law within their precincts.
The problem is that we have a church on one side who is as far as I can see is allowed to sort out its problems in house because society and the state are unwilling or unable to deal with the issues raised.
As regards a referendum the entire Constitution needs to be overhauled and/or scrapped. It's a totally outdated piece of legislation that does not reflect the Ireland of today.
SD0 -
A letter of apology is meaningless, particularly when it comes from an individual who was directly involved in developing the protocols behind covering up child abuse in the first place.
Personally, I think anyone who at this stage supports the Catholic Church either financially or publicly is either in denial, delusional or immoral.0 -
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I DO NOT want children named and I am absolutely disgusted you suggested that I do!...Anyway it seems you want children named in public rather than keeping it secret.
People are often sworn to secrecy, the secrecy involved here did not mean the parents and children could not go to the police and that is the most important point.
There was one victim who said she didn't want the courts involved when she was abused but instead expected the church to deal with it.
If some wanted the church to deal with it internally then who are any of us to question the process the church used if this is what the parents or victims wanted?
Why did some of them not go to the police?
It is said in society (US study) only about 60% report of sexual abuse is reported to the authorities. So it quite believeable some only wanted the church to deal with it than be involved with the law.
I want that remark withdrawn NOW!!! :mad:
Please stop with this crap "the secrecy involved here did not mean the parents and children could not go to the police"
THAT WAS THE POINT OF THEM BEING SWORN TO SECRECY BY THE CLERGY!
Still there has been no apology for that either!
"Why did some of them not go to the police?"
Many have stated that answer already in many reports.
I have stated one reason alone above!
What happens in the states is a totally different ball game to what happened in Ireland,
The methods used to silence the people, the level of powerful influence and reach of authority they had!
That USA rubbish don't wash!0 -
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And there is the core of the outrage for the majority I think. That a priest would rape a child is horrific and enraging; but that the church would decide that its canon law had primacy over state law and that therefore they had the authority to decide how that offender would be prosecuted and punished, that's what raises the larger portion of the outrage here.StudentDad wrote: »How nice for the Catholic Church - Canon law is irrelevant! It is not for the church to decide what legal responsibilities they like or whether or not they will inform the state of a possible breach of criminal law within their precincts.0
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