M3 Clonee-Kells route selection and archaelogical info

darkman2 · 12-11-2007 10:05pm

spacetweek wrote: »

The Blundelstown interchange really is taking the piss - it's not enough to have the road going right past a national monument, but they also have to have a huge motorway interchange that will probably be floodlit at night and dominating the view both day and night from the summit of the hill.

The bundelstown interchange is not 'huge'. It is a standard motorway interchange with 2 roundabouts. The smallest possible.

cournioni · 13-11-2007 1:02pm

kbannon wrote: »

In all fairness, the site owners are not brainwashing the signees. The petition is quite clear

What people write there is (I presume) not under the direct control of he site owners.

I wasn't pointing the finger in the direction of the site owners in particular. All I was saying was that there are certain people out there brainwashing people into thinking that the road is actually going through the hill.

All you need to do is read that petition to see how people have been brainwashed into thinking that the road is going through the hill. I doubt if anyone other than these protesters put that into their heads.

Regardless of what anyone thinks, this road is needed. Whatever about the route or a rail system (which imo is also needed). It is a dangerous road as the amount of traffic on it at times can cause big problems especially when you see certain eejits trying to over take five cars at a time.

On one occasion I saw three accidents while travelling to Dublin, and I only join the road at Navan. This was probably caused by the congestion and slow moving traffic on the road (60 kph alot of the time) and one or two idiots trying to pass out. You will always have these idiots, and that is why these primitive 3rd world roads should be replaced with motorways.

People need to be safe while travelling. Now sure the Greens and other environmentalists will say well why not build a railway line and get it up and running? Super as that is and all, it will not change the fact that the road will be over congested. People will always choose road over rail because it is more independant and people don't have to rely on others to get from A to B, which can be alot of work and time with the amount of connections you need to get and so on.

As far as I am concerned the M3 is needed. I personally don't think that it will cause Tara or its environs any harm. Rail is also needed, but M3 should be the priority here, for the reasons stated above. I would like to see this country progress, so that people can travel safely and not have to be getting up at 5am to travel to work. Whatever it takes to make people safer on our roads, I am in favour of.

CC.

Xyndrix · 13-11-2007 2:09pm

As already stated, this is pretty much a pointless debate now anyway. I gave up hope of any changes to the route when the election turned out as it did and the Greens caved in on the issue. It doesn't matter what they find there now, the route will not be changed at this stage. It's a daft route, far longer and meandering than it should be, with a needless interchange at Blundelstown, placed there only to facilitate rezoning and development. But it's going ahead now and nothing will stop it. All energies should be focused on mitigating the effects of the interchange on the area and preventing development from sprawling around it while also ensuring this Outer Orbital Route doesn't get to plough through the area as well. There's some hope of preventing that as it's still in the early stages of planning. Things are too far gone with the M3 itself.

D'Peoples Voice · 13-11-2007 2:20pm

BrianD wrote: »

and more importantly, focuses attention on the decision makers who have made a right royal cock up of planning the M3 route. Hopefully, lessons can be learned. It really does underline our complete ineptidude when it comes to national infrastructure planning.

This point sums up the problem. Is the road a national road or local road?
If it's a national road, why was ONLY Meath County council allowed dictate it's path, surely Cavan and Donegal County councils(& the NRA) should have had some say.
Meath county council in my opinion chose this route precisely becos it DOES go near blundelstown which will become the main acess route into Navan from Dublin - yes that's right the home of Meath county council(http://www.meath.ie/LocalAuthorities/ContactYourLocalAuthority/MeathCountyCouncilHeadOffice/. I believe it has NOTHING to do with the route being the most advantageous from a national perspective.
Which is why I would like nothing better than for Europe to say the M3 may go ahead but the junction at Blundelstown must NOT be opened.

lostexpectation · 13-11-2007 7:38pm

MYOB wrote: »

Errr.... no. The majority of people in this country have a ((Tara==Hill of Tara)) automatic assumption and the anti-road campaigners do absolutely nothing to correct this - if anything they capitalise on the confusion. I've had to correct three people in work who've made this mistake, all along the "isn't it terrible they're putting a road through the Hill of Tara...." line.

kbannon used the correct form of words then somebody else deliberately misused his words to try and paint it that he was being misleading, it is the ignorant and greedy politicians who keep using the bulldozing the hill of tara line.

another example

[mr cosgrave]
References were made to the road going through Tara. We stood in the shopping centres in the area for the past few weekends. An enormous number of people are of the impression that the proposed road will go right through the Hill of Tara. A number or references have been made to this matter, including one in a letter to the Meath Chronicle on 30 October from Joe Fenwick, an archaeologist, who has written numerous letters and has been frequently quoted on this matter. He said:

"We are aware that the major traffic bottleneck is at Dunshaughlin. This can be resolved by the construction of the bypass. The National Roads Authority has been holding the community to ransom by insisting that this is built as part of the M3 motorway through Tara."

There are dozens of references. We have just a few of them here today. Shane Hickey wrote in the Irish Independent that Vincent Salafia of the Save Tara-Skryne Valley Group had told the committee that the Hill of Tara was needlessly under threat, which gives the impression that it will be destroyed.

Deputy Cuffe: I hate to be pedantic. Mr. Cosgrave claimed to be quoting and I would like to get to the heart of the matter. I have not heard that quote before. In the first quote Mr. Cosgrave claimed that Mr. Fenwick said the motorway would go “through Tara”. I do not think Mr. Fenwick said that.

Mr. Cosgrave: He said “through the Hill of Tara”.

Deputy Cuffe: I thought Mr. Cosgrave said that he said “through Tara”.

Mr. Cosgrave: Yes, he said “through Tara”.

Chairman: Is it not a hill?

Deputy Cuffe: Mr. Fenwick has discussed the Tara demesne at length in the work he has done for the Discovery programme.

Mr. Cosgrave: There are some other quotes I could use.

Deputy Cuffe: I do not want to split hairs with Mr. Cosgrave.

Mr. Cosgrave: Yes.

Deputy Cuffe: I accept that there are many misconceptions in the media. I want to nail such misunderstandings. I will do my best to make clear that the proposal does not involve a motorway ploughing through the middle of the Hill of Tara. The proposed road will pass through a valley that has been identified as potentially being the site of the historic demesne of Tara.

Mr. Cosgrave: That is fair enough. Many people had a real feeling that it was proposed to build a road through the Hill of Tara. It was a popular misconception.

Deputy Cuffe: That is a fair point.

Mr. Cosgrave: That impression was borne out in the surveys conducted by the Meath Citizens for the M3 group.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=ENJ20050302.xml&Ex=All&Page=3

lostexpectation · 13-11-2007 7:46pm

ps another monument is about to be damaged, the nra archaeologist back in 2003/4 didn't bother to look closely enough at historic sites near the motorway because 'they were outside the roadtake' turns out the position on the old monument list was wrong, they never checked it, so now the motorway is going to be 20m from it instead of 100m and they will slice away a chunk of the esker which the defensive fort for tara sits on. they only did a proper survey this summer to find out the correct position after chopping down a load of trees and disturbing graves around the site realising the were much closer then they said.

Xyndrix · 13-11-2007 8:36pm

lostexpectation wrote: »

ps another monument is about to be damaged, the nra archaeologist back in 2003/4 didn't bother to look closely enough at historic sites near the motorway because 'they were outside the roadtake' turns out the position on the old monument list was wrong, they never checked it, so now the motorway is going to be 20 from instead of 100m slice away a chunk of the esker which the defensive fort for tara sits on and be 20m away rather then 100m. they only did a proper survey this summer to find out the correct position after chopping down a load of trees and disturbing graves around the site realising the were much closer then they said.

Yep. That's Rath Lugh they're taking a slice out of. It really amuses me when I hear people say: 'Sure isn't it a shame they don't bring the railway along by the motorway and take more land now to provide for it' (FG people seem particularly fond of this idea for some reason). Take more land?? Where? on which side? They're right up beside Rath Lugh on the eastern side and there's about a quarter of the Lismullen henge left on the western side that they're supposedly committed to preserving, never mind the other sites dotted around the place. Just another example of how crazy it was to run a motorway through here.

Seth Brundle · 14-11-2007 10:36am

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

Regardless of what anyone thinks, this road is needed. Whatever about the route or a rail system (which imo is also needed). It is a dangerous road as the amount of traffic on it at times can cause big problems especially when you see certain eejits trying to over take five cars at a time.

On one occasion I saw three accidents while travelling to Dublin, and I only join the road at Navan. This was probably caused by the congestion and slow moving traffic on the road (60 kph alot of the time) and one or two idiots trying to pass out. You will always have these idiots, and that is why these primitive 3rd world roads should be replaced with motorways.

People need to be safe while travelling.

Firstly, nobody ever was against building a road, people only objected to its route, and not just its route through the Tara Skryne valley. However, people were only offered one route as thats all the NRA put forward. The NRA dis select several possible routes but filtered these down to one which was then given for public consideration.
Secondly, someone willing to take their life along with others on a tight NPR is likely to do the same on a motorway.

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

I personally don't think that it will cause Tara or its environs any harm.

Out of curiosity, what is your background of expertise?

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

Rail is also needed, but M3 should be the priority here, for the reasons stated above.

Actually, the way things are going, there is likely to be fuel shortages within 10 years. Encouraging rail would have been a better option!

Zoney · 14-11-2007 11:34am

Forget Tara. Roll on the new National Monument, the M3, a monument to Irish "planning"... Complete with main feature *, the Blundelstown interchange, soon to feature a motorway service area and more. Maybe even attached to the Outer Bypass (M50 mk2) if we are lucky!

Yee haw!

* Will be superseded as the main attraction by the new N3/M50 junction necessitating 15 new road bridges alone. Got to have somewhere for all that M3 traffic to go!

cournioni · 14-11-2007 12:46pm

kbannon wrote: »

Firstly, nobody ever was against building a road, people only objected to its route, and not just its route through the Tara Skryne valley. However, people were only offered one route as thats all the NRA put forward. The NRA dis select several possible routes but filtered these down to one which was then given for public consideration.
Secondly, someone willing to take their life along with others on a tight NPR is likely to do the same on a motorway.

I am aware that people are only objecting to the route... While lying and brainwashing that is. Anyone who disagrees with them will be met with brutal force and pretentiousness...

To respond to your second point, yes they are also likely to do the same on a motorway, but at less of a risk as the likelihood of a head on collision is far far lower. There is also far more room to manouvre on a motorway than a road built for horses and carts, sorry I meant the N3...

kbannon wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what is your background of expertise?

I am a Diesel Engineer, what is yours?

kbannon wrote: »

Actually, the way things are going, there is likely to be fuel shortages within 10 years. Encouraging rail would have been a better option!

Not really, people will drive cars, vans, trucks, busses no matter what the future has in store for them. Why? Because it gives them independence.

Seth Brundle · 14-11-2007 12:56pm

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

I am aware that people are only objecting to the route... While lying and brainwashing that is. Anyone who disagrees with them will be met with brutal force and pretentiousness...

I disagree with that. For example, nobody here disagreeing with the objectors has been met with brutal force and pretentiousness. Im not aware of anyone who has been met with that in all fairness.

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

To respond to your second point, yes they are also likely to do the same on a motorway, but at less of a risk as the likelihood of a head on collision is far far lower. There is also far more room to manouvre on a motorway than a road built for horses and carts, sorry I meant the N3...

True. Surely a 2+1 which could have been completed by now could have done this and AFAIK the idea wasn't objected by opponents of the M3 route.

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

I am a Diesel Engineer, what is yours?

I spent many years working as an Environmental Scientist in different roles. My final area before moving into IT was in EIA management.

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

Not really, people will drive cars, vans, trucks, busses no matter what the future has in store for them. Why? Because it gives them independence.

They won't if it becomes too costly to commute every day by car powered by fossil fuels.

D'Peoples Voice · 14-11-2007 2:53pm

kbannon wrote: »

However, people were only offered one route as thats all the NRA put forward. The NRA dis select several possible routes but filtered these down to one which was then given for public consideration.

I see the route that I would have liked (via Trim) would not have worked

Orange Route 1
The view to the west from the Hill of Tara encompasses the Central Plain and extends to east Galway. The Orange Route would lie in full view of this panorama, passing very close to several large archaeological sites, including Ringlestown Rath, as well as the villages of Dunsany and Kilmessan.

The Orange Route would therefore have a significant impact on the setting of the Hill of Tara archaeological complex as well as a significant impact on local communities. Meath County Council's consultants stated that the Orange Route was not a viable option. Dúchas (now National Monuments Section of the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government [DoEHLG]) felt that the Orange Route would cause severance of the River Boyne at a new location (through building a bridge where none previously existed). It was also felt there was very high potential for uncovering archaeological sites to the west of the Hill of Tara.

http://www.m3motorway.ie/M3Background/PlanningProcess/RouteSelection/

Navan Junction · 02-12-2007 10:55pm

They've just found megalthic art on rubble from a souterrain dumped along the route of the M3

http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u167/muireanntemair/Souterrain%20stone%201%20Dec%2007/

rameire · 03-12-2007 4:02pm

thank god they dug in the spot were the souterrain was, otherwise it might never have seen the light of day, now it can be recorded and be made available for future showing,

Navan Junction · 03-12-2007 4:05pm

rameire wrote: »

thank god they dug in the spot were the souterrain was, otherwise it might never have seen the light of day, now it can be recorded and be made available for future showing,

:rolleyes:

lostexpectation · 03-12-2007 4:51pm

well the souterrains themselves are mediveal this is obviously reuse of stone. I wonder do all archaeologists steer roads towards there sites so they can get funding?

lostexpectation · 03-12-2007 4:53pm

del

Navan Junction · 03-12-2007 6:21pm

I can't imagine that they'll find much more there - it's seems to be pretty well dug at this stage. They have the supports put in on a bridge just below the hill of Skryne so I'd say they are pretty advanced

No point growling about it rameire - it's being done, it's not going to be stopped at this stage.

And it never was - I think there was amood for a reroute at one point, but not stopping it

But no matter what way you look at it there must be stuff of huge interest in that valley.

I am actually looking forward to the exhibition of artefacts the NRA promised - will you be going yourself?

Seth Brundle · 05-12-2007 10:29am

Navan Junction wrote: »

No point growling about it rameire - it's being done, it's not going to be stopped at this stage.

And it never was - I think there was amood for a reroute at one point, but not stopping it

I don't think anyone ever wanted the M3 stopped. They just wanted it re-routed away from the valley.
Anyhow, give it a decade or so an will we have another tribunal regarding it?

Navan Junction · 05-12-2007 11:35am

Its a possability - you couldn't have made the whole thing up

darkman2 · 05-12-2007 12:07pm

Navan Junction wrote: »

Its a possability - you couldn't have made the whole thing up

The M3 is being built for a number of reasons - firstly whether you like it or not the vast majority of people in Dunshauglin, Navan and Kells drive a car - secondly most work in Dublin - and thirdly how many lives has that miserable excuse for a National road cost over the years? No one is arguing against a rail link but its time people like yourself took the blinkers off and looked at reality as it is today not as it might be 20 years down the line or more importantly in 500AD - we dont live in the past so stuff it. Dig up the stones, stick them in a museum and thats that. Another point which I have made already - The M3 is well under construction. The debate - if there ever was one - is over. Thats it, get over it. There is nothing that can be done about it now.

Xyndrix · 05-12-2007 1:23pm

Why oh why do all the pro-M3 drones always ignore the questions over the choice of route, the vested interests etc, and just come back with the same pointless response - 'People want the M3'? You tell them you're not against the M3 itself and it's as if they don't even hear you, they're so pre-programmed with the same mantra - 'People want the M3'. The route through the valley is a joke, it's much longer than it should be, it crosses over the old N3 just so it can cross back again to build an unnecessary interchange to benefit well-connected landowners all at public expense. Look it up, the facts are there if you bother to check. Of course it's much easier to see some 'hippy eco-warriors' and then like an automaton think: 'Well, if they're against it, I'm for it'. Great work lads, that's just what the guys who wanted that route were counting on.

Of course, none of this matters now as it's all over. Still, I can't help but be amused at the complete failure to even engage with the real issues. You try to focus on the flawed choice of route for the Dunshaughlin-Navan section and people turn it into a simple for/against the M3. No wonder the clowns deciding on our planning and infrastructure can get away with so much.

Navan Junction · 05-12-2007 1:24pm

darkman2 wrote: »

The M3 is being built for a number of reasons - firstly whether you like it or not the vast majority of people in Dunshauglin, Navan and Kells drive a car

Yes

darkman2 wrote: »

secondly most work in Dublin

Yes, virtually everybody does

darkman2 wrote: »

thirdly how many lives has that miserable excuse for a National road cost over the years?

It's a crap road I agree

darkman2 wrote: »

its time people like yourself took the blinkers off and looked at reality

You have it wrong. I agree with the road. I follow it's construction with interest, and will use it.

I do think it should have travelled west from Dunshaughlin and taken in Trim. That's not dark age - that logical. It might have reduced the tolling burden too

darkman2 wrote: »

The M3 is well under construction. The debate - if there ever was one - is over. Thats it, get over it. There is nothing that can be done about it now.

There was never one debate, and yes it is over in the sense that it is being built. You had (still do) hear lunatics talking about horse trails. You hear a fair few talking about no road building at all and just have a railway (unrealistic and in my view completely undesirable), and then you have others that ask the question was that route the best route, frequently for widely varying reasons.

I want the road, I can live with the tolls (unhappily but I'll probably get used to them), I'll use the road and I'll also use the railway. It's not either or. It's both dualc/motorway and rail like in Arklow (Wicklow), Naas(Kildare), Mullingar (Westmeath), Tullamore (Offally), Drogheda (Louth) and any other properly equiped town. (Spot the gap in the railway map there by the way)

They all have road and rail.

But that doesn't stop me wondering why the road just take the direct route to Navan from Dunshaughlin, and why the M3 couldn't have benefitted Trim.

I'm not biased in favour of road over rail - they do two different things in a Meath context. The road willl get you to blanch more safely and quicker than the N3. The railway will get you to the city centre more safely and quicker than the N3. Two very different functions and 2 halves of a singled transport solution

Railway will take large volumes to one point in the city centre, the M3 will facilitate distribution of road commuters all over Dublin by connecting with the M50.

Now where did you say I argued against the M3? I just said the route was north of Dunshaughlin was difficult to comprehend, end of

Navan Junction · 05-12-2007 1:27pm

Got carried away, take out Tullamore out of the dualc/motorway list before someone gets disappointed:D

BrianD · 05-12-2007 2:03pm

Looking on the bright side, that once the road is built and within ten years most of the people who believed it was necessary will NOT be able to afford to drive on it. They won't be able to afford to heat their homes either so thank goodness for global warming.

Navan Junction wrote:

Railway will take large volumes to one point in the city centre, the M3 will facilitate distribution of road commuters all over Dublin by connecting with the M50.

I don't agree. If the navan line was there, I can transfer from Connolly to tram, Dart an Arrow or bus. Assuming that other lines will be buit I will be able to transfer to metro or luas at other points before reaching the city centre.

Navan Junction · 05-12-2007 2:12pm

Fair point, scribbled quickly without thinking

D'Peoples Voice · 05-12-2007 2:55pm

darkman2 wrote: »

The M3 is being built for a number of reasons - firstly whether you like it or not the vast majority of people in Dunshauglin, Navan and Kells drive a car - secondly most work in Dublin

So you're saying the road is not being built as an interurban between dublin and the Northwest as indicated in transport21, that explains everything about our Government.
There was I thinking that other roads such as the M6 were being built to bring people from Dublin to Galway, when it's only to bring people from Tyrrellspass, rochfortbridge and Milltownpass to Dublin akin to those in Navan and Kells.
Darkman2, you've just summed up planning in this country- the M3 should be a bypass of the towns en route to their final destination, when in fact you are saying it's a commuter route for towns en route. to think that some people wonder why the M50 didn't work out, here's a clue, close off every exit between the N11 and the M1 and you would quickly have a bypass that works. What was people's expectations - a bypass road to bring you to the Northwest quicker or a commuter route from Navan to Dublin?

spacetweek · 06-12-2007 9:29pm

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

So you're saying the road is not being built as an interurban between dublin and the Northwest as indicated in transport21, that explains everything about our Government.
There was I thinking that other roads such as the M6 were being built to bring people from Dublin to Galway, when it's only to bring people from Tyrrellspass, rochfortbridge and Milltownpass to Dublin akin to those in Navan and Kells.
Darkman2, you've just summed up planning in this country- the M3 should be a bypass of the towns en route to their final destination, when in fact you are saying it's a commuter route for towns en route. to think that some people wonder why the M50 didn't work out, here's a clue, close off every exit between the N11 and the M1 and you would quickly have a bypass that works. What was people's expectations - a bypass road to bring you to the Northwest quicker or a commuter route from Navan to Dublin?

The M3 peters out as it approaches the Cavan border. I don't think it was ever accurate to describe it as a "bypass to get you to the NW" - there's nothing in the Northwest, no major cities or towns, nothing that would require a motorway. The only case for this is to say that the road will facilitate economic development in the area, which is true but unlikely on a large scale with no industrial areas in the vicinity, even in NI.

The road is being built to connect outlying towns with Dublin. It's a simple as that. It's a commuter motorway. Why is that a dirty word?

trellheim · 06-12-2007 11:51pm

It's a commuter motorway. Why is that a dirty word?

because your government is not building it as one. It is building it as something else. if it was a commuter motorway then it wouldn't be built. poof ! cash go away ... Awwww

cargo · 07-12-2007 5:56pm

It's not like the existing road is dangerous or anything???????

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1207/rta.html?rss

Man killed in N3 road crash
Friday, 7 December 2007 16:03

A man has been killed in an accident involving a van and two trucks near Kells in Co Meath.

Two others are being treated for minor injuries following the crash, which occurred 5km south of Kells at around 12.20pm.

It is understood the van burst into flames after the impact.
Advertisement

The road remains closed while the scene is examined.

The man is the third person to be killed in a road accident on the N3 in Meath in the past two days.

M3 Clonee-Kells route selection and archaelogical info

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